82-year-old mom refuses to plan, share info, discuss

[Anonymous]

I'm brand new to this forum. Please forgive me if my situation has been addressed ad nauseum. If you point me to specific threads, I'll be happy to read them. Also, please forgive the length of this post, too.

My mom is almost 83 years old, losing her mobility. She lives independently, more than an hour from me, in a condo with many stairs. Simply entering/exiting her condo requires going up and down 9-10 steps, and her bedroom is on the second floor. But she can no longer go up or down stairs easily. She has to place nearly all of her weight on the handrails, and even then, the stairs are *extremely* challenging, requiring her to rest/regain balance with each step. She's obese, so if/when she falls, it will be hard. We'd like to help her figure out some better options, but she refuses to give us even basic information. I suspect her income is in the 48-55K range, a combo of social security and a pension from working in health care, but she won't tell me for sure. She has no investments beyond her condo (maybe worth 400k?), zero savings. The situation goes beyond housing, too. She has not assigned power of attorney, I don't think she's assigned a healthcare proxy, she won't even fill out that "Five Questions" form that the doctor keeps giving her (she says she's "getting ready to do it," but it's been at least a year since the doctor gave her the form). There's no way she has long-term care insurance. I'm certain she doesn't have a will. She won't even tell us where she banks, or what bills come in. I don't know her Medicare policy #.

I'm terribly concerned for her, and for years, I've been trying to gently tell her that the best way to avoid a crummy situation is to actively plan, and that I want to help. She has always insisted she'll know when "it's time." But surely it's now beyond "time." I suspect she's scared and ashamed. I understand this, which is why I've tried to approach it delicately.

But I'm growing increasingly concerned for how Mom's refusal to plan could affect my family, especially my kids. My husband and I work in the arts/nonprofits. We aren't wealthy. We have some limited savings, but we also have two college-aged kids and tuitions to pay. Both of our kids have chronic diseases, so lots of co-pays, as well as unexpected costs that arise because of their health issues. One is a type 1 diabetic, and while we currently have health insurance through DH's employment, we could easily find ourselves in a situation where we lose that insurance and have to pay out-of-pocket for the insulin that keeps our kid alive. Even in the best case scenario, she can only stay on our health insurance until she's 26 (lots of horror stories about this -- sometimes these young T1D adults die from rationing insulin after getting kicked off parents' plan). It is not hard to imagine a scenario where my mom's lack of planning really messes with our ability to meet our kids' basic needs. As some examples: Mom could become incapacitated, and bc she didn't assign power of attorney, we suddenly must pay her bills from our own accounts (if we can even figure out what those bills are!). She could have a fall, then require long-term care she can't afford, bc she cannot return to her stair-filled condo (and we live in a state with a "filial responsibility" law, which allows a nursing home or long-term care facility to sue adult children for seniors' unpaid bills!). If she dies without a will, her estate could be tied up for a long, long time, even as her condo fees/home insurance/etc. would need to be paid. All of this doesn't even take into account our own looming retirement needs (we are in our mid-50s).

It all came to a head this weekend. After several recent failed overtures, I finally told her (gently, but firmly) that for the sake of her grandkids it was time to start planning, including sharing some basic information -- either with us, or with *someone* who can help. I told her all the different ways her refusal to discuss things could affect her grandkids. She insisted she was "thinking about all of this," and that my words were "not falling on deaf ears." BUT she also refused to commit to taking any specific next steps, or even to getting a date on the calendar when she might begin a conversation. She said I was pushing too hard, too fast, and that I needed to back off. ("Mom," I said. "You've had a lot of time. It's been years since I first raised the issue. And all I'm asking for now is to get a date on the calendar."). She was supposed to visit this weekend, but she said if this is how it was going to be, she wasn't going to visit. Then she hung up on me. She didn't visit.

I feel terrible. But I also feel scared and overwhelmed, and I'm starting to get angry. She's had so many offers of help, and so many gentle nudges. I guess I no longer believe she's going to take even basic steps without some pushing. She's almost 83, her health isn't great, her living situation is untenable, and what she does/doesn't do affects other people.

Seeking advice, recommendations for next steps, and/or cautionary tales.

[Anonymous]

I think you need to see a pro financial planner who specializes in elder care stuff, for yourself and by yourself. You need to get a realistic picture of how things would go in your state, since she'll end up on Medicaid and each state is different we can't really help you with that. A planner can also help you understand your children's options after age 26. And help you understand what happens if someone dies without a will. Basically you have to ask the court to appoint you to deal with basic stuff like condo fees.

Your mom is probably experiencing a lot of shame about her body, her aging, her financial situation, and maybe her cognition/memory and her hearing and eyesight. All of those things can make it very difficult to "plan". I agree that it's time and you must press her on it, but there are reasons other than stubbornness and denial. Keep an eye out for them.

Are you an only child?

[Anonymous]

I agree you need to see a financial specialist and/or a family lawyer who specializes in elder care. I don’t think you would be responsible for her bills, but they will clarify.

Also, that will help you set any boundaries. If you cannot pay for something, she will go without. Or, you could spend the time to help her get state benefits.

I suggest, as much as you can, to take the anger and frustration out of it. Having compassion for her and you (re your energy, willingness, and boundaries) will go a long way in your relationship. I say that from experience.

[Anonymous]

Thank you. That's a very good suggestion. I actually hadn't thought about doing elder care planning for myself and by myself. When the kids were young, we invested in a very strong will, which we've revised several times as the kids grew. That always gave me peace of mind, so I imagine having a solid plan will do the same, and can create some boundaries, too.

I have one sibling who lives on the west coast. She's not been able to get anywhere w/Mom either (she tends to be a little harsher in her interactions, and the long distance makes these fraught conversations especially tough). But she has said she'll back me up on anything I need, which I appreciate.

Yeah, I think there's a ton of shame and fear on Mom's end. I hear you that I need to manage my own emotions. I suppose my way of doing this until now was by never pushing so hard I got upset. Now that we are entering a new phase, I'll need to find a different way to keep a cool head.

Appreciate it.

[Anonymous]

Yes, OP. Focus on the control you have: talking w your sister, deciding if/how much money and time you want to spend, etc. You can even plan in advance, if she has a fall then I can do x, and y, but not z. If course, we don’t know how things will play out, but it helps refocus my mind on what I can control and be factual over overly-emotional.

[Anonymous]

I don’t understand what the grandkids have to do with this. That was a weird comment.

She needs a financial power of attorney, HIPAA forms signed, and a health care power of attorney. A will doesn’t sound totally necessary on this scenario - intestate laws can handle this so while a will would be good, focus on the documents needed while she is living.

You need to know her health insurance info. It would also be helpful for you to know the name of her bank, mortgage company if any etc.

You can check to make sure she is keeping up with property tax payments but looking it up with the municipality.

Explain otherwise if she becomes incapacitated you will have to go to court to be appointed power of attorney and that is a hassle and expensive and how will her bills get paid in the meantime etc.

Again what do the grandkids have to do with this? Weird to make it about them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand what the grandkids have to do with this. That was a weird comment.

She needs a financial power of attorney, HIPAA forms signed, and a health care power of attorney. A will doesn’t sound totally necessary on this scenario - intestate laws can handle this so while a will would be good, focus on the documents needed while she is living.

You need to know her health insurance info. It would also be helpful for you to know the name of her bank, mortgage company if any etc.

You can check to make sure she is keeping up with property tax payments but looking it up with the municipality.

Explain otherwise if she becomes incapacitated you will have to go to court to be appointed power of attorney and that is a hassle and expensive and how will her bills get paid in the meantime etc.

Again what do the grandkids have to do with this? Weird to make it about them.

You're being rude, and it was very clearly explained in the post. The grandkids have health conditions that require OP's time, attention, and money. OP is concerned that between her kids and her mother, the situation won't be manageable unless she engages in some advance planning.

[Anonymous]

OP, you won't have to pay for all of this yourself! She will be eligible for Medicaid when she spends down her assets, and her condo will be exempt as long as she lives in it (even during a temporary hospitalization or rehab stay). It's okay! Take a deep breath and say "In the long term, Medicaid will cover a lot."

If your mom is truly incapacitated like cannot communicate at all, you can be appointed POA. If she's only sort of incapacitated, she can appoint you at that time. It seems like your mom's plan is to stay in her home, accepting various tradeoffs, because she really wants to stay in her home. And her plan is "When I can't manage, my adult daughter will make decisions for me." And that's not a terrible plan! You sound like the kind of adult daughter who would make really good decisions, so it's understandable that your mom would want to do it that way. Choosing not to plan = choosing to have your adult children make decisions. And that's okay! Take a deep breath and say "My mom has chosen to stay in her home, and for me to make decisions when she is unable."

I get the sense finances are a stress point for you, and suggest it might help your anxiety to set aside a little every month for these eventualities. And maybe look into a change of jobs-- not to a job you really dislike, but poke around a little and maybe you can increase your pay in a job you're happy with.

[Anonymous]

Your mom's situation is entirely hers. It is not problem unless you make it your problem. You have made your position known, now focus on yourself and your family. I cannot understand how any of this would possibly effect your children. You are not responsible for your mother's bills, regardless of what happens to her. You have to let her live with the consequences of the choices she makes. If she wishes to risk falling down the stairs at her own home, she may do that. For many, myself included, I would far rather die from falling down the stairs at the age of 82 then die a slow, lonely death in an old folks home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, OP. Focus on the control you have: talking w your sister, deciding if/how much money and time you want to spend, etc. You can even plan in advance, if she has a fall then I can do x, and y, but not z. If course, we don’t know how things will play out, but it helps refocus my mind on what I can control and be factual over overly-emotional.

Why do people keep suggesting that she should set aside or plan to spend any of her own money on her mother's care? Her mother has a pension, SS, and a condo she owns. She's actually in pretty good shape and presumably has Medicare coverage as well. You could suggest she use a little of her pension to buy supplemental coverage, in case she needs something that Medicare won't cover. But otherwise, honestly, OP, I just don't see what you are so stressed about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, OP. Focus on the control you have: talking w your sister, deciding if/how much money and time you want to spend, etc. You can even plan in advance, if she has a fall then I can do x, and y, but not z. If course, we don’t know how things will play out, but it helps refocus my mind on what I can control and be factual over overly-emotional.

Why do people keep suggesting that she should set aside or plan to spend any of her own money on her mother's care? Her mother has a pension, SS, and a condo she owns. She's actually in pretty good shape and presumably has Medicare coverage as well. You could suggest she use a little of her pension to buy supplemental coverage, in case she needs something that Medicare won't cover. But otherwise, honestly, OP, I just don't see what you are so stressed about.

Because it's stressful for OP to feel financially unprepared, and OP may feel better if she has a little nest egg. Elder-care is costly for the adult child doing it-- time off from work, travel, meals when you're there, paying for miscellaneous stuff if the senior isn't able to-- it adds up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand what the grandkids have to do with this. That was a weird comment.

She needs a financial power of attorney, HIPAA forms signed, and a health care power of attorney. A will doesn’t sound totally necessary on this scenario - intestate laws can handle this so while a will would be good, focus on the documents needed while she is living.

You need to know her health insurance info. It would also be helpful for you to know the name of her bank, mortgage company if any etc.

You can check to make sure she is keeping up with property tax payments but looking it up with the municipality.

Explain otherwise if she becomes incapacitated you will have to go to court to be appointed power of attorney and that is a hassle and expensive and how will her bills get paid in the meantime etc.

Again what do the grandkids have to do with this? Weird to make it about them.

She is taking time away that is needed to care for the kids. The grandkids need that time.

[Anonymous]

Your mom sounds selfish. I wouldn’t even worry about it especially if she wants you to mind your own business. She obviously doesn’t care or maybe has her own plans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Your mom's situation is entirely hers. It is not problem unless you make it your problem. You have made your position known, now focus on yourself and your family. I cannot understand how any of this would possibly affect your children. You are not responsible for your mother's bills, regardless of what happens to her. You have to let her live with the consequences of the choices she makes. If she wishes to risk falling down the stairs at her own home, she may do that. For many, myself included, I would far rather die from falling down the stairs at the age of 82 then die a slow, lonely death in an old folks home.

You are beyond clueless.

[Anonymous]

OP here. I appreciate all the responses, including the ones that don't see what the big deal is. It's certainly possible I'm conflating unrelated situations in a way that's unnecessary and unhelpful.

A genuine question: is no one here concerned about filial responsibility laws? The laws are on the books in Maryland, Virginia, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, North Carolina, Massachusetts, Connecticut, etc....and legally obligate adult children to provide financial support for senior parents' care, even opening the door for separate households to be sued by care facilities for payment. They don't seem to be often enforced, but it does happen sometimes, and I can imagine it happening more as our senior population needs increasing care.

That said, I really appreciate the note about how Medicaid will kick in should the need arise, as well as the specific things that need to be addressed (HIPAA, financial/health power of attorney, etc.).

This is all new territory for us. Thanks for giving me a place to try to make sense of it.