Federal judge rules that admissions changes at nation’s top public school discriminate against Asian

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

I have a mixed Asian student at a McLean AAP center. I’m not sure what you consider cookie cutter but there are some extremely bright kids who happen to be Asian who excel in Science Olympiad, math counts and chess. These kids may seem cookie cutter to you but they vary greatly in personality, hobbies and other extracurricular activities. My kids play tennis, golf, soccer and piano. Others may swim or do debate. I don’t know how you can call them cookie cutter besides the fact that they are Asian, do well in the academic extracurriculars in addition to the other non academic extracurriculars.

We have a lot of physician and lawyer colleagues. They kind of look similar on paper as well. They got top grades at top universities, did well on their MCAT or LSAT, usually excelled in a sport or two.

Because racists like the "cookie cutter PP" see that a child is part or full Asian and all they see is this. To them cookie cutter whites look completely different to them.

[img ]https://www.sweetsugarbelle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Simple-Chinese-New-Year-Cookies.jpg[/img ]

GMAFB. I didn't refer to "race" at all. I commented on the checklist of TJ activities/achievements. The resumes all look the same.

I guess if you don't have a legitimate point to make if you have to make sh1t up about race.

See mirror. We understand cookie-cutter, one-dimensional, not personable, and other such terms. You are fundamentally wrong and driven by your own false prejudice.

About parents who push their kids to hyperfocus on the TJ checklist?

What is the TJ checklist?

pg 21-31 covers a lot of it:
https://curielearning.com/parent%2Fstudent-guide

seems to work:
https://www.facebook.com/curielearningllc/photos/a.464208267068834/1895646900591623/

Seems like they are well prepared for this

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1043882.page

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

I have a mixed Asian student at a McLean AAP center. I’m not sure what you consider cookie cutter but there are some extremely bright kids who happen to be Asian who excel in Science Olympiad, math counts and chess. These kids may seem cookie cutter to you but they vary greatly in personality, hobbies and other extracurricular activities. My kids play tennis, golf, soccer and piano. Others may swim or do debate. I don’t know how you can call them cookie cutter besides the fact that they are Asian, do well in the academic extracurriculars in addition to the other non academic extracurriculars.

We have a lot of physician and lawyer colleagues. They kind of look similar on paper as well. They got top grades at top universities, did well on their MCAT or LSAT, usually excelled in a sport or two.

Because racists like the "cookie cutter PP" see that a child is part or full Asian and all they see is this. To them cookie cutter whites look completely different to them.

[img ]https://www.sweetsugarbelle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Simple-Chinese-New-Year-Cookies.jpg[/img ]

GMAFB. I didn't refer to "race" at all. I commented on the checklist of TJ activities/achievements. The resumes all look the same.

I guess if you don't have a legitimate point to make if you have to make sh1t up about race.

See mirror. We understand cookie-cutter, one-dimensional, not personable, and other such terms. You are fundamentally wrong and driven by your own false prejudice.

About parents who push their kids to hyperfocus on the TJ checklist?

Nope, about calling kids resumes the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

I have a mixed Asian student at a McLean AAP center. I’m not sure what you consider cookie cutter but there are some extremely bright kids who happen to be Asian who excel in Science Olympiad, math counts and chess. These kids may seem cookie cutter to you but they vary greatly in personality, hobbies and other extracurricular activities. My kids play tennis, golf, soccer and piano. Others may swim or do debate. I don’t know how you can call them cookie cutter besides the fact that they are Asian, do well in the academic extracurriculars in addition to the other non academic extracurriculars.

We have a lot of physician and lawyer colleagues. They kind of look similar on paper as well. They got top grades at top universities, did well on their MCAT or LSAT, usually excelled in a sport or two.

Because racists like the "cookie cutter PP" see that a child is part or full Asian and all they see is this. To them cookie cutter whites look completely different to them.

[img ]https://www.sweetsugarbelle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Simple-Chinese-New-Year-Cookies.jpg[/img ]

GMAFB. I didn't refer to "race" at all. I commented on the checklist of TJ activities/achievements. The resumes all look the same.

I guess if you don't have a legitimate point to make if you have to make sh1t up about race.

See mirror. We understand cookie-cutter, one-dimensional, not personable, and other such terms. You are fundamentally wrong and driven by your own false prejudice.

About parents who push their kids to hyperfocus on the TJ checklist?

Nope, about calling kids resumes the same.

Because some parents push their kids to follow the same TJ checklist.

We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

Bingo. And the bottom line is, without that incentivizing behavior through the TJ application, it would be easier for them to follow a path that was more likely to get them to the best possible version of themselves - not just for college apps, but for their ability to serve society.

What if getting into a school like TJ is among the "best possible" versions of the students? Who are you to say that these students would be better off doing something else and attending some other school?

It certainly is for some! But it isn't for many, many others.

You don't know this. You need to show proof that many TJ students end up being a poor match for the school using some statistically valid methodology.

Nah. It's enough for me to see nearly half of the senior class every year disillusioned because they invested four years into TJ and ended up somewhere they could have easily gotten from their base school - like a Virginia Tech.

You need to then further show your work that Virginia Tech is a poor fit for those students that choose to go there.

Oh, I don't think it is. For most of those students, that's EXACTLY where they belong. They're just angry that they "wasted four years of their life" at a "school my parents made me go to" to "get into Tech".

And they told you all that? Virginia Tech is a great tech school. It has a diverse student body and has produced some amazing entrepreneurs, tech executives, leaders. Students are quite happy being there. You just have a warped imagination.

I don't have a warped imagination. They have warped priorities and expectations. Agree completely with everything you said until your last sentence.

Really, seems like you were denigrating tech by saying it is EXACTLY where they belong. I have had the pleasure to work with some wonderful folks from the school. I wonder which fancy school you went to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

I have a mixed Asian student at a McLean AAP center. I’m not sure what you consider cookie cutter but there are some extremely bright kids who happen to be Asian who excel in Science Olympiad, math counts and chess. These kids may seem cookie cutter to you but they vary greatly in personality, hobbies and other extracurricular activities. My kids play tennis, golf, soccer and piano. Others may swim or do debate. I don’t know how you can call them cookie cutter besides the fact that they are Asian, do well in the academic extracurriculars in addition to the other non academic extracurriculars.

We have a lot of physician and lawyer colleagues. They kind of look similar on paper as well. They got top grades at top universities, did well on their MCAT or LSAT, usually excelled in a sport or two.

Because racists like the "cookie cutter PP" see that a child is part or full Asian and all they see is this. To them cookie cutter whites look completely different to them.

[img ]https://www.sweetsugarbelle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Simple-Chinese-New-Year-Cookies.jpg[/img ]

GMAFB. I didn't refer to "race" at all. I commented on the checklist of TJ activities/achievements. The resumes all look the same.

I guess if you don't have a legitimate point to make if you have to make sh1t up about race.

See mirror. We understand cookie-cutter, one-dimensional, not personable, and other such terms. You are fundamentally wrong and driven by your own false prejudice.

About parents who push their kids to hyperfocus on the TJ checklist?

Nope, about calling kids resumes the same.

Because some parents push their kids to follow the same TJ checklist.

We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Maybe you should get around more and interact with some people outside your narrow group. You seem filled with jealousy and negativity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

I have a mixed Asian student at a McLean AAP center. I’m not sure what you consider cookie cutter but there are some extremely bright kids who happen to be Asian who excel in Science Olympiad, math counts and chess. These kids may seem cookie cutter to you but they vary greatly in personality, hobbies and other extracurricular activities. My kids play tennis, golf, soccer and piano. Others may swim or do debate. I don’t know how you can call them cookie cutter besides the fact that they are Asian, do well in the academic extracurriculars in addition to the other non academic extracurriculars.

We have a lot of physician and lawyer colleagues. They kind of look similar on paper as well. They got top grades at top universities, did well on their MCAT or LSAT, usually excelled in a sport or two.

The child you are describing would fit in brilliantly in my ideal version of TJ. Would love to have them.

The child who would not is the child whose parents insist that the bolded activities are a waste of time and that they should be doing more STEM in order to get into TJ.

You would be shocked at how many of the latter type of student has had success getting into TJ over the years.

Really? Then strange that my DC only has friends who participate in the bolded activities oh and are also pretty passionate at STEM.

Sounds great! I hope they are selected as they will be wonderful contributors to the school.

DP. I'm confused by your point. Most of the kids already at TJ, including the ones in the classes of 2022, 2023, and 2024, do activities other than STEM. Many play instruments, participate in a sport, and do non STEM academics. TJ has never picked a cohort of kids who are hyperfocused on STEM or are following some sort of "TJ checklist."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

Bingo. And the bottom line is, without that incentivizing behavior through the TJ application, it would be easier for them to follow a path that was more likely to get them to the best possible version of themselves - not just for college apps, but for their ability to serve society.

What if getting into a school like TJ is among the "best possible" versions of the students? Who are you to say that these students would be better off doing something else and attending some other school?

It certainly is for some! But it isn't for many, many others.

You don't know this. You need to show proof that many TJ students end up being a poor match for the school using some statistically valid methodology.

Nah. It's enough for me to see nearly half of the senior class every year disillusioned because they invested four years into TJ and ended up somewhere they could have easily gotten from their base school - like a Virginia Tech.

You need to then further show your work that Virginia Tech is a poor fit for those students that choose to go there.

Oh, I don't think it is. For most of those students, that's EXACTLY where they belong. They're just angry that they "wasted four years of their life" at a "school my parents made me go to" to "get into Tech".

And they told you all that? Virginia Tech is a great tech school. It has a diverse student body and has produced some amazing entrepreneurs, tech executives, leaders. Students are quite happy being there. You just have a warped imagination.

DP. I have had an intern at our company say it in so many words. He went to TJ and then to UVA. He said that he wouldn't have bothered with going to TJ and working so hard, if he had known he'd end up at UVA like half the kids in FCPS, that he could have had a fun four years in high school, instead of a hard slog. I don't think he was angry really, just kind of disappointed, and wondering what all that hard work was for.

I know one kid who is waiting for Ivy day, who would be terribly disappointed if she doesn't get into her school of choice. TJ was part of her plan to get into an Ivy, and she thought they had that formula figured out (the right school, the right extracurriculars, etc.).

Based on my interaction with them, I didn't really see any passion for STEM (I'm in a STEM field myself, with a terminal degree), just TJ being a part of some grand plan. I do know one kid who goes there, who is absolutely passionate about his particular STEM niche. Last I checked, he was disappointed in the school, said he expected better teaching than he's seeing, and his parents' impression is that the school gets away with mediocre teaching because the kids are so driven to succeed. They were considering going back to base.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

Bingo. And the bottom line is, without that incentivizing behavior through the TJ application, it would be easier for them to follow a path that was more likely to get them to the best possible version of themselves - not just for college apps, but for their ability to serve society.

What if getting into a school like TJ is among the "best possible" versions of the students? Who are you to say that these students would be better off doing something else and attending some other school?

It certainly is for some! But it isn't for many, many others.

You don't know this. You need to show proof that many TJ students end up being a poor match for the school using some statistically valid methodology.

Nah. It's enough for me to see nearly half of the senior class every year disillusioned because they invested four years into TJ and ended up somewhere they could have easily gotten from their base school - like a Virginia Tech.

You need to then further show your work that Virginia Tech is a poor fit for those students that choose to go there.

Oh, I don't think it is. For most of those students, that's EXACTLY where they belong. They're just angry that they "wasted four years of their life" at a "school my parents made me go to" to "get into Tech".

And they told you all that? Virginia Tech is a great tech school. It has a diverse student body and has produced some amazing entrepreneurs, tech executives, leaders. Students are quite happy being there. You just have a warped imagination.

DP. I have had an intern at our company say it in so many words. He went to TJ and then to UVA. He said that he wouldn't have bothered with going to TJ and working so hard, if he had known he'd end up at UVA like half the kids in FCPS, that he could have had a fun four years in high school, instead of a hard slog. I don't think he was angry really, just kind of disappointed, and wondering what all that hard work was for.

I know one kid who is waiting for Ivy day, who would be terribly disappointed if she doesn't get into her school of choice. TJ was part of her plan to get into an Ivy, and she thought they had that formula figured out (the right school, the right extracurriculars, etc.).

Based on my interaction with them, I didn't really see any passion for STEM (I'm in a STEM field myself, with a terminal degree), just TJ being a part of some grand plan. I do know one kid who goes there, who is absolutely passionate about his particular STEM niche. Last I checked, he was disappointed in the school, said he expected better teaching than he's seeing, and his parents' impression is that the school gets away with mediocre teaching because the kids are so driven to succeed. They were considering going back to base.

You do realize anyone who worked hard and gunning for Harvard or MIT would feel disappointed going to UVA.

I clearly remember the hardest working girl at my high school ended up getting rejected across the board. The smartest guy at my high school also got rejected across the board. They were both white and Jewish.

I think many people think the same about spending $$$ for private school. I would be pretty pissed if I spent all that money and my kid chose to go to Elon or Clemson or similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

Bingo. And the bottom line is, without that incentivizing behavior through the TJ application, it would be easier for them to follow a path that was more likely to get them to the best possible version of themselves - not just for college apps, but for their ability to serve society.

What if getting into a school like TJ is among the "best possible" versions of the students? Who are you to say that these students would be better off doing something else and attending some other school?

It certainly is for some! But it isn't for many, many others.

You don't know this. You need to show proof that many TJ students end up being a poor match for the school using some statistically valid methodology.

Nah. It's enough for me to see nearly half of the senior class every year disillusioned because they invested four years into TJ and ended up somewhere they could have easily gotten from their base school - like a Virginia Tech.

You need to then further show your work that Virginia Tech is a poor fit for those students that choose to go there.

Oh, I don't think it is. For most of those students, that's EXACTLY where they belong. They're just angry that they "wasted four years of their life" at a "school my parents made me go to" to "get into Tech".

And they told you all that? Virginia Tech is a great tech school. It has a diverse student body and has produced some amazing entrepreneurs, tech executives, leaders. Students are quite happy being there. You just have a warped imagination.

DP. I have had an intern at our company say it in so many words. He went to TJ and then to UVA. He said that he wouldn't have bothered with going to TJ and working so hard, if he had known he'd end up at UVA like half the kids in FCPS, that he could have had a fun four years in high school, instead of a hard slog. I don't think he was angry really, just kind of disappointed, and wondering what all that hard work was for.

I know one kid who is waiting for Ivy day, who would be terribly disappointed if she doesn't get into her school of choice. TJ was part of her plan to get into an Ivy, and she thought they had that formula figured out (the right school, the right extracurriculars, etc.).

Based on my interaction with them, I didn't really see any passion for STEM (I'm in a STEM field myself, with a terminal degree), just TJ being a part of some grand plan. I do know one kid who goes there, who is absolutely passionate about his particular STEM niche. Last I checked, he was disappointed in the school, said he expected better teaching than he's seeing, and his parents' impression is that the school gets away with mediocre teaching because the kids are so driven to succeed. They were considering going back to base.

You do realize anyone who worked hard and gunning for Harvard or MIT would feel disappointed going to UVA.

I clearly remember the hardest working girl at my high school ended up getting rejected across the board. The smartest guy at my high school also got rejected across the board. They were both white and Jewish.

I think many people think the same about spending $$$ for private school. I would be pretty pissed if I spent all that money and my kid chose to go to Elon or Clemson or similar.

Yup. It’s very similar, IMO, I’m that people think they have found The One True Way, and are then disappointed to find there is no such thing.

Personally, I don’t get it. 99.999…% of successful people on the planet haven’t even heard of TJ, nor have they gone to T20 for undergrad. What’s the fuss?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

Bingo. And the bottom line is, without that incentivizing behavior through the TJ application, it would be easier for them to follow a path that was more likely to get them to the best possible version of themselves - not just for college apps, but for their ability to serve society.

What if getting into a school like TJ is among the "best possible" versions of the students? Who are you to say that these students would be better off doing something else and attending some other school?

It certainly is for some! But it isn't for many, many others.

You don't know this. You need to show proof that many TJ students end up being a poor match for the school using some statistically valid methodology.

Nah. It's enough for me to see nearly half of the senior class every year disillusioned because they invested four years into TJ and ended up somewhere they could have easily gotten from their base school - like a Virginia Tech.

You need to then further show your work that Virginia Tech is a poor fit for those students that choose to go there.

Oh, I don't think it is. For most of those students, that's EXACTLY where they belong. They're just angry that they "wasted four years of their life" at a "school my parents made me go to" to "get into Tech".

And they told you all that? Virginia Tech is a great tech school. It has a diverse student body and has produced some amazing entrepreneurs, tech executives, leaders. Students are quite happy being there. You just have a warped imagination.

DP. I have had an intern at our company say it in so many words. He went to TJ and then to UVA. He said that he wouldn't have bothered with going to TJ and working so hard, if he had known he'd end up at UVA like half the kids in FCPS, that he could have had a fun four years in high school, instead of a hard slog. I don't think he was angry really, just kind of disappointed, and wondering what all that hard work was for.

I know one kid who is waiting for Ivy day, who would be terribly disappointed if she doesn't get into her school of choice. TJ was part of her plan to get into an Ivy, and she thought they had that formula figured out (the right school, the right extracurriculars, etc.).

Based on my interaction with them, I didn't really see any passion for STEM (I'm in a STEM field myself, with a terminal degree), just TJ being a part of some grand plan. I do know one kid who goes there, who is absolutely passionate about his particular STEM niche. Last I checked, he was disappointed in the school, said he expected better teaching than he's seeing, and his parents' impression is that the school gets away with mediocre teaching because the kids are so driven to succeed. They were considering going back to base.

You do realize anyone who worked hard and gunning for Harvard or MIT would feel disappointed going to UVA.

I clearly remember the hardest working girl at my high school ended up getting rejected across the board. The smartest guy at my high school also got rejected across the board. They were both white and Jewish.

I think many people think the same about spending $$$ for private school. I would be pretty pissed if I spent all that money and my kid chose to go to Elon or Clemson or similar.

Yup. It’s very similar, IMO, I’m that people think they have found The One True Way, and are then disappointed to find there is no such thing.

Personally, I don’t get it. 99.999…% of successful people on the planet haven’t even heard of TJ, nor have they gone to T20 for undergrad. What’s the fuss?

Funny thing is, 99.999...% ivy plus kids will be hired and promoted by non-ivy plus hiring managers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

Bingo. And the bottom line is, without that incentivizing behavior through the TJ application, it would be easier for them to follow a path that was more likely to get them to the best possible version of themselves - not just for college apps, but for their ability to serve society.

What if getting into a school like TJ is among the "best possible" versions of the students? Who are you to say that these students would be better off doing something else and attending some other school?

It certainly is for some! But it isn't for many, many others.

You don't know this. You need to show proof that many TJ students end up being a poor match for the school using some statistically valid methodology.

Nah. It's enough for me to see nearly half of the senior class every year disillusioned because they invested four years into TJ and ended up somewhere they could have easily gotten from their base school - like a Virginia Tech.

You need to then further show your work that Virginia Tech is a poor fit for those students that choose to go there.

Oh, I don't think it is. For most of those students, that's EXACTLY where they belong. They're just angry that they "wasted four years of their life" at a "school my parents made me go to" to "get into Tech".

And they told you all that? Virginia Tech is a great tech school. It has a diverse student body and has produced some amazing entrepreneurs, tech executives, leaders. Students are quite happy being there. You just have a warped imagination.

DP. I have had an intern at our company say it in so many words. He went to TJ and then to UVA. He said that he wouldn't have bothered with going to TJ and working so hard, if he had known he'd end up at UVA like half the kids in FCPS, that he could have had a fun four years in high school, instead of a hard slog. I don't think he was angry really, just kind of disappointed, and wondering what all that hard work was for.

I know one kid who is waiting for Ivy day, who would be terribly disappointed if she doesn't get into her school of choice. TJ was part of her plan to get into an Ivy, and she thought they had that formula figured out (the right school, the right extracurriculars, etc.).

Based on my interaction with them, I didn't really see any passion for STEM (I'm in a STEM field myself, with a terminal degree), just TJ being a part of some grand plan. I do know one kid who goes there, who is absolutely passionate about his particular STEM niche. Last I checked, he was disappointed in the school, said he expected better teaching than he's seeing, and his parents' impression is that the school gets away with mediocre teaching because the kids are so driven to succeed. They were considering going back to base.

You do realize anyone who worked hard and gunning for Harvard or MIT would feel disappointed going to UVA.

I clearly remember the hardest working girl at my high school ended up getting rejected across the board. The smartest guy at my high school also got rejected across the board. They were both white and Jewish.

I think many people think the same about spending $$$ for private school. I would be pretty pissed if I spent all that money and my kid chose to go to Elon or Clemson or similar.

Yup. It’s very similar, IMO, I’m that people think they have found The One True Way, and are then disappointed to find there is no such thing.

Personally, I don’t get it. 99.999…% of successful people on the planet haven’t even heard of TJ, nor have they gone to T20 for undergrad. What’s the fuss?

Funny thing is, 99.999...% ivy plus kids will be hired and promoted by non-ivy plus hiring managers.

And they will also be hired before a non ivy candidate 99.999…% of the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

I have a mixed Asian student at a McLean AAP center. I’m not sure what you consider cookie cutter but there are some extremely bright kids who happen to be Asian who excel in Science Olympiad, math counts and chess. These kids may seem cookie cutter to you but they vary greatly in personality, hobbies and other extracurricular activities. My kids play tennis, golf, soccer and piano. Others may swim or do debate. I don’t know how you can call them cookie cutter besides the fact that they are Asian, do well in the academic extracurriculars in addition to the other non academic extracurriculars.

We have a lot of physician and lawyer colleagues. They kind of look similar on paper as well. They got top grades at top universities, did well on their MCAT or LSAT, usually excelled in a sport or two.

Because racists like the "cookie cutter PP" see that a child is part or full Asian and all they see is this. To them cookie cutter whites look completely different to them.

[img ]https://www.sweetsugarbelle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Simple-Chinese-New-Year-Cookies.jpg[/img ]

GMAFB. I didn't refer to "race" at all. I commented on the checklist of TJ activities/achievements. The resumes all look the same.

I guess if you don't have a legitimate point to make if you have to make sh1t up about race.

See mirror. We understand cookie-cutter, one-dimensional, not personable, and other such terms. You are fundamentally wrong and driven by your own false prejudice.

About parents who push their kids to hyperfocus on the TJ checklist?

What is the TJ checklist?

pg 21-31 covers a lot of it:
https://curielearning.com/parent%2Fstudent-guide

seems to work:
https://www.facebook.com/curielearningllc/photos/a.464208267068834/1895646900591623/

That is a significant amount of kids that they have gotten in.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

I have a mixed Asian student at a McLean AAP center. I’m not sure what you consider cookie cutter but there are some extremely bright kids who happen to be Asian who excel in Science Olympiad, math counts and chess. These kids may seem cookie cutter to you but they vary greatly in personality, hobbies and other extracurricular activities. My kids play tennis, golf, soccer and piano. Others may swim or do debate. I don’t know how you can call them cookie cutter besides the fact that they are Asian, do well in the academic extracurriculars in addition to the other non academic extracurriculars.

We have a lot of physician and lawyer colleagues. They kind of look similar on paper as well. They got top grades at top universities, did well on their MCAT or LSAT, usually excelled in a sport or two.

The child you are describing would fit in brilliantly in my ideal version of TJ. Would love to have them.

The child who would not is the child whose parents insist that the bolded activities are a waste of time and that they should be doing more STEM in order to get into TJ.

You would be shocked at how many of the latter type of student has had success getting into TJ over the years.

Really? Then strange that my DC only has friends who participate in the bolded activities oh and are also pretty passionate at STEM.

Sounds great! I hope they are selected as they will be wonderful contributors to the school.

DP. I'm confused by your point. Most of the kids already at TJ, including the ones in the classes of 2022, 2023, and 2024, do activities other than STEM. Many play instruments, participate in a sport, and do non STEM academics. TJ has never picked a cohort of kids who are hyperfocused on STEM or are following some sort of "TJ checklist."

"Most" is not correct. "Many" would be correct.

Additionally, a significant number of those participate in activities that are specifically targeted to improve their college prospects - the best example is probably Model UN. There are a huge number of TJ Model UN participants who never actually compete for TJ on any major level, but who are content to be able to list it on their college resume as a thing that they did. Oftentimes you have 250+ TJ students in MUN at a time. Crew is another example. Crew takes on huge numbers but very few of those students actually compete for TJ - but there is a false narrative that "crew helps you get into an Ivy" because there have been a few TJ students over the years with less-than-impressive grades who got RECRUITED to row for Princeton. Never mind the fact that these were 6'6" athletes...

Needless to say, I view students following the "Ivy checklist" in much the same way as I view the students following the "TJ checklist". The difference is that the Ivy checklist is far less effective, as evidenced by the types of TJ students who generally end up having success in their admissions process.

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Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

Exactly. We benefit from having diverse STEM talent from across the county, not just cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist.

Right, we don't need cookie-cutter applicants. We need to accept the best and the brightest period.

Objective criteria and a transparent process results in cookie-cutter applicants. If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how admissions processes work and how they incentivize problematic behavior.

Seems like your statement comes from a place of deep ignorance and extreme small-mindedness - at best.

Cookie cutter applicants? Because all Asians look similar to you? Asians are a racially diverse group and the kids are far from cookie cutter. Just India and China alone have 2.5b people.

No, obviously Asians don't look the same to me. But the admissions process as it was previously constructed incentivized families to place their students on a very narrow path that resulted for many years in a TJ population - both Asian and otherwise - that had extremely similar resumes over the years. College admissions officers have disclosed to TJ Student Services personnel that they have difficulty discerning between TJ applications in many cases because they receive hundreds of profiles that look extremely similar on paper - not because they're Asian, but because the admissions process to get to TJ placed students on a treadmill that they were all jockeying for position on together.

Exactly. I made the initial "cookie cutter" comment and that is exactly what I meant by "cookie-cutter applicants who are all following the same TJ checklist".

Many students end up with resumes that look very similar because they are following the same TJ checklist.

I have a mixed Asian student at a McLean AAP center. I’m not sure what you consider cookie cutter but there are some extremely bright kids who happen to be Asian who excel in Science Olympiad, math counts and chess. These kids may seem cookie cutter to you but they vary greatly in personality, hobbies and other extracurricular activities. My kids play tennis, golf, soccer and piano. Others may swim or do debate. I don’t know how you can call them cookie cutter besides the fact that they are Asian, do well in the academic extracurriculars in addition to the other non academic extracurriculars.

We have a lot of physician and lawyer colleagues. They kind of look similar on paper as well. They got top grades at top universities, did well on their MCAT or LSAT, usually excelled in a sport or two.

Because racists like the "cookie cutter PP" see that a child is part or full Asian and all they see is this. To them cookie cutter whites look completely different to them.

[img ]https://www.sweetsugarbelle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Simple-Chinese-New-Year-Cookies.jpg[/img ]

GMAFB. I didn't refer to "race" at all. I commented on the checklist of TJ activities/achievements. The resumes all look the same.

I guess if you don't have a legitimate point to make if you have to make sh1t up about race.

See mirror. We understand cookie-cutter, one-dimensional, not personable, and other such terms. You are fundamentally wrong and driven by your own false prejudice.

About parents who push their kids to hyperfocus on the TJ checklist?

What is the TJ checklist?

pg 21-31 covers a lot of it:
https://curielearning.com/parent%2Fstudent-guide

seems to work:
https://www.facebook.com/curielearningllc/photos/a.464208267068834/1895646900591623/

That is a significant amount of kids that they have gotten in.

It is, but a far lesser percentage of the incoming class (16%) than what they got under the previous process (28%).

Given their popularity and recent success, the fact that they got such a high number in 2025 is likely attributable to their saturation in the market of South Asians in the western part of NOVA - especially in Loudoun.

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Anonymous wrote:Not really seeing why they would appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit.

They can't help themselves. They love spending other people's money practicing racism.

HAK is representing FCPS pro bono, just like PLF is representing C4TJ pro bono.

BS.

Apparently Verrilli is taking this on pro bono. Not sure Hunton's invovlement at all at the appelate level. Should be interesting, and clearly raises the profile of this case even more.