Question about the homophobia thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a different take on the topic of not using the word woman in an effort to be inclusive. I’m the PP whose son is trans, and for the record I have a daughter who is hella feminist and also very mindful of using inclusive language. She only dates girls, but doesn’t identify as a lesbian, because she feels that strict woman-woman definition is too rigid.

Trans men are largely ignored in the trans debates. I’ve said it before. I’m pretty sure it’s due to a couple of issues, mostly relating to how men react to gender and sexuality. I think trans men pass more easily than trans women. It’s fairly easy for a trans man, even a short fella, to fit in if he has top surgery and a beard, wears cargo pants and has short hair. It’s not extremely expensive. Cis men don’t seem to have their guard up about trans men, because if they’re transphobic, they likely see them as women and not a threat, or worst case scenario they see them as women who need to be taught how to be women (like Brandon Teena-we all know that story). Mostly they go unnoticed and not much thought is given to trans men. Also, I think it’s much more taboo to call out possible trans men as women wearing pants because there’s not a stigma attached to women who wear “men’s” clothing, and because toxic masculinity dictates it would be quite insulting to a cis man if someone said he must be a woman because he’s short/thin/delicate. The language is ignored because trans men are swept under the rug. Also, I think there’s a little bit of an attitude of “who wouldn’t want to be a man,” “she’s so butch we thought of her as one of the guys anyway,” and “trans men can’t rape anyone so they’re not hurting anyone,” mixed in for good measure.

I’m glad DS passes and doesn’t face the same trouble as trans women on a daily basis, but I worry for his safety.

With trans women, it’s different because there are penises involved. I think it comes back to toxic masculinity and a misogynistic version of transphobia against trans women rather than trying to erase trans women. Trans women have been told over and over they’re not real women so they can’t call themselves women and we can’t call them women. It’s ridiculous to have to constantly identify them as trans. So we need some language that is true and inclusive of everyone. Also, a lot of the medical language is being misunderstood.* In this case with the lesbian definition, they’re obviously trying to be inclusive. While they didn’t remove the word men, they were also inclusive and said that gay doesn’t exclusively refer to men, sort of like how it’s explained that now some non-binary people prefer lesbian to describe their sexuality.

*I’ve seen people on this site get upset at birthing people/pregnant people terminology and say we’re definitely crazy if we think trans women can be pregnant. That’s a perspective I hadn’t considered, and reinforces my feelings that most of the trans hate happening is aimed at trans women. Obviously trans women aren’t getting pregnant, although they can be mothers. The pregnant people wording is for trans men who become pregnant. This is also for all the menstruation wording too. Obviously trans women aren’t menstruating, but if a trans man isn’t on hormones and hasn’t had a hysterectomy, they could still be menstruating (that’s a mind f*** when you have to deal with it, and is another reason I see red when all forms of medical transitioning are illegal for minors. Women and girls suppress periods all the damn time, but if a trans boy wants to do it all of a sudden we’re trying to erase women).

Anyway, if you keep othering people instead of including them, they don’t disappear, they just create new language so they’re not left out. I think the same thing is going to happen with bathrooms as is happening with language. People didn’t want to include trans women as women, so now we’re people with descriptors. But that doesn’t make the people who couldn’t abide trans women being called women happy, so they’re complaining about that. They don’t want trans women in their women’s bathrooms, and want people to go to the bathroom that matches their gender assigned at birth. They’re not going to be happy if trans men with beards and pecs sculpted by surgeons using the bathrooms with their young daughters or their wives. Which brings me back to, yes, bathroom laws are about erasing trans people, because other than single person bathrooms or unisex bathrooms (which are more dangerous because of cis men not trans people), there’s nowhere trans people can pee that would make transphobes happy. You know what sucks (besides someone else thinking they get to decide where you should pee)? UTIs because of holding it too long because you’re afraid to go to the bathroom in public.

Tl;dr f your feelings about a technically true definition that you don’t like. Some people are actually oppressed, including women, whose reproductive rights and healthcare options being taken away in red states. That’s an actual problem. If you care about women, let’s work on that together then we can sit down and talk about how your feelings are hurt because someone called you a person instead of a woman. And if it’s kids you care about instead of women, let’s work on gun safety measures to prevent not just school shootings, but accidental shootings of and by children, and the tragic loss of family members children have to cope with because guns are everywhere. Then after we fix that, we can have a rational discussion about how gender affirming care doesn’t need to mean no therapy and no questioning why they think they’re trans, and figure out the best way forward to keep kids alive, healthy, and happy.

That’s what makes this all sound like RWNJ faux outrage. People are pushing Rs because they think they will support women more? Look at how they are actually hurting and oppressing women right now. Such nonsense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi PP I am not going to quote your long post, but I am the poster who originally linked the JHU glossary. I just wanted to say I appreciate (and always appreciate) your thoughtful posts. I’m not saying I agree with everything you write. For instance, I still find the misogyny inherent in those definitions horrifying and even in a world where people pick new language to deal with transphobia, it really bothers me that a lot of that new language is grounded in pervasive, deep, and widespread misogyny. But your posts always make me think, even if I don’t always agree with you. I just wanted to let you know that they are read and I think about them, and I am glad to hear about how well your DS is doing.

For the record I am not in favor of either bathroom bans or banning all gender affirming care for minors, though I would favor lifting malpractice caps. I come to this debate as a woman with a history of assault and sexual harassment behind me, and my primary driver in this entire discussion is the safety of women and children. I am pro gun control and pro reproductive rights. You don’t have to convince me of the importance of those. But I am also deeply appalled by what I see as a resurgence of violent sexism that comes with the trans rights movement. I can’t see how the world is made better by forcing naked bodies with penises into a previously safe spa for women. I can’t see how the world is made better when women who experience sexual harassment by transwomen in their locker rooms are attacked physically when sharing their stories. I can’t see how the destruction of single-sex spaces for girls and women in a world where we know unisex spaces increase assaults is making the world better.

It is not surprising that rapid rise of the power of the trans rights movement came on the heels of the Me Too movement. Any time in history that women really gather together, however briefly, to share their stories and their truths about assault and sex-based violence, there is an immediate and vicious backlash. And so Me Too and the trans rights movement are connected, as if the punishment women need to endure for having the gall to openly talk about sexual harassment, assault, and rape is the destruction of their safe spaces.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is, though I think in the end that women’s safe spaces will in fact be destroyed in the name of trans rights. If there is one thing I can say from history, it is that the safety of women is rarely a winning issue, and that women who advocate for that safety pay enormous prices. That’s what I see going on now, and I think in the end, the trans rights movement will prevail.

This is just ridiculous I don’t know where to start. You think more people are coming out as transgender as a … retaliation? So irrational and disconnected from reality.

I guess I have to spell it out more clearly for you.

In order for trans rights to succeed broadly, as a society we have to agree to give up single sex-based spaces. That is the cost of trans rights: we remove sex-based spaces and replace them with unisex spaces, gender-based spaces being in practice largely the same thing as unisex spaces. Sex-based spaces such as single-sex domestic violence shelters, prisons, locker rooms, hostels, dementia care units, etc. must, if trans rights is going to succeed long-term, be turned into gender-based spaces. There is no other way to square the idea that (using trans women as an example) men can identify as women: as women, they must be entitled to access to women’s spaces, or the foundation of the entire ideological framework crumbles.

Prior to Me Too, I don’t think that quid pro quo would have succeeded. Of course, prior to Me Too, plenty of transwomen politely used women’s bathrooms and plenty of women politely pretended not to notice, but it was a small group of people and didn’t extend to places like prisons. I don’t think as a society people were willing to destroy sex-based spaces across the board, but there was plenty of mostly ad hoc co-existence.

But then Me Too happened and for a brief moment, women told their truths and people even claimed to believe them. That, however, also opened a conversation about women’s spaces because some women talked about how single-sex spaces were often a reprieve from the assaults and harassment they faced in mixed-sex spaces. And a lot of men were pretty angry about both the fact women were speaking out but also that these women’s spaces they’d previously kind of ignored were suddenly part of the national conversation. That’s what helped set the stage for making the destruction of single-sex spaces an acceptable cost to gain trans rights: Me Too made those spaces an acceptable target.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a different take on the topic of not using the word woman in an effort to be inclusive. I’m the PP whose son is trans, and for the record I have a daughter who is hella feminist and also very mindful of using inclusive language. She only dates girls, but doesn’t identify as a lesbian, because she feels that strict woman-woman definition is too rigid.

Trans men are largely ignored in the trans debates. I’ve said it before. I’m pretty sure it’s due to a couple of issues, mostly relating to how men react to gender and sexuality. I think trans men pass more easily than trans women. It’s fairly easy for a trans man, even a short fella, to fit in if he has top surgery and a beard, wears cargo pants and has short hair. It’s not extremely expensive. Cis men don’t seem to have their guard up about trans men, because if they’re transphobic, they likely see them as women and not a threat, or worst case scenario they see them as women who need to be taught how to be women (like Brandon Teena-we all know that story). Mostly they go unnoticed and not much thought is given to trans men. Also, I think it’s much more taboo to call out possible trans men as women wearing pants because there’s not a stigma attached to women who wear “men’s” clothing, and because toxic masculinity dictates it would be quite insulting to a cis man if someone said he must be a woman because he’s short/thin/delicate. The language is ignored because trans men are swept under the rug. Also, I think there’s a little bit of an attitude of “who wouldn’t want to be a man,” “she’s so butch we thought of her as one of the guys anyway,” and “trans men can’t rape anyone so they’re not hurting anyone,” mixed in for good measure.

I’m glad DS passes and doesn’t face the same trouble as trans women on a daily basis, but I worry for his safety.

With trans women, it’s different because there are penises involved. I think it comes back to toxic masculinity and a misogynistic version of transphobia against trans women rather than trying to erase trans women. Trans women have been told over and over they’re not real women so they can’t call themselves women and we can’t call them women. It’s ridiculous to have to constantly identify them as trans. So we need some language that is true and inclusive of everyone. Also, a lot of the medical language is being misunderstood.* In this case with the lesbian definition, they’re obviously trying to be inclusive. While they didn’t remove the word men, they were also inclusive and said that gay doesn’t exclusively refer to men, sort of like how it’s explained that now some non-binary people prefer lesbian to describe their sexuality.

*I’ve seen people on this site get upset at birthing people/pregnant people terminology and say we’re definitely crazy if we think trans women can be pregnant. That’s a perspective I hadn’t considered, and reinforces my feelings that most of the trans hate happening is aimed at trans women. Obviously trans women aren’t getting pregnant, although they can be mothers. The pregnant people wording is for trans men who become pregnant. This is also for all the menstruation wording too. Obviously trans women aren’t menstruating, but if a trans man isn’t on hormones and hasn’t had a hysterectomy, they could still be menstruating (that’s a mind f*** when you have to deal with it, and is another reason I see red when all forms of medical transitioning are illegal for minors. Women and girls suppress periods all the damn time, but if a trans boy wants to do it all of a sudden we’re trying to erase women).

Anyway, if you keep othering people instead of including them, they don’t disappear, they just create new language so they’re not left out. I think the same thing is going to happen with bathrooms as is happening with language. People didn’t want to include trans women as women, so now we’re people with descriptors. But that doesn’t make the people who couldn’t abide trans women being called women happy, so they’re complaining about that. They don’t want trans women in their women’s bathrooms, and want people to go to the bathroom that matches their gender assigned at birth. They’re not going to be happy if trans men with beards and pecs sculpted by surgeons using the bathrooms with their young daughters or their wives. Which brings me back to, yes, bathroom laws are about erasing trans people, because other than single person bathrooms or unisex bathrooms (which are more dangerous because of cis men not trans people), there’s nowhere trans people can pee that would make transphobes happy. You know what sucks (besides someone else thinking they get to decide where you should pee)? UTIs because of holding it too long because you’re afraid to go to the bathroom in public.

Tl;dr f your feelings about a technically true definition that you don’t like. Some people are actually oppressed, including women, whose reproductive rights and healthcare options being taken away in red states. That’s an actual problem. If you care about women, let’s work on that together then we can sit down and talk about how your feelings are hurt because someone called you a person instead of a woman. And if it’s kids you care about instead of women, let’s work on gun safety measures to prevent not just school shootings, but accidental shootings of and by children, and the tragic loss of family members children have to cope with because guns are everywhere. Then after we fix that, we can have a rational discussion about how gender affirming care doesn’t need to mean no therapy and no questioning why they think they’re trans, and figure out the best way forward to keep kids alive, healthy, and happy.

That’s what makes this all sound like RWNJ faux outrage. People are pushing Rs because they think they will support women more? Look at how they are actually hurting and oppressing women right now. Such nonsense.

I read the whole thing and thought it was thoughtful and worth replying to to say so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi PP I am not going to quote your long post, but I am the poster who originally linked the JHU glossary. I just wanted to say I appreciate (and always appreciate) your thoughtful posts. I’m not saying I agree with everything you write. For instance, I still find the misogyny inherent in those definitions horrifying and even in a world where people pick new language to deal with transphobia, it really bothers me that a lot of that new language is grounded in pervasive, deep, and widespread misogyny. But your posts always make me think, even if I don’t always agree with you. I just wanted to let you know that they are read and I think about them, and I am glad to hear about how well your DS is doing.

For the record I am not in favor of either bathroom bans or banning all gender affirming care for minors, though I would favor lifting malpractice caps. I come to this debate as a woman with a history of assault and sexual harassment behind me, and my primary driver in this entire discussion is the safety of women and children. I am pro gun control and pro reproductive rights. You don’t have to convince me of the importance of those. But I am also deeply appalled by what I see as a resurgence of violent sexism that comes with the trans rights movement. I can’t see how the world is made better by forcing naked bodies with penises into a previously safe spa for women. I can’t see how the world is made better when women who experience sexual harassment by transwomen in their locker rooms are attacked physically when sharing their stories. I can’t see how the destruction of single-sex spaces for girls and women in a world where we know unisex spaces increase assaults is making the world better.

It is not surprising that rapid rise of the power of the trans rights movement came on the heels of the Me Too movement. Any time in history that women really gather together, however briefly, to share their stories and their truths about assault and sex-based violence, there is an immediate and vicious backlash. And so Me Too and the trans rights movement are connected, as if the punishment women need to endure for having the gall to openly talk about sexual harassment, assault, and rape is the destruction of their safe spaces.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is, though I think in the end that women’s safe spaces will in fact be destroyed in the name of trans rights. If there is one thing I can say from history, it is that the safety of women is rarely a winning issue, and that women who advocate for that safety pay enormous prices. That’s what I see going on now, and I think in the end, the trans rights movement will prevail.

This is just ridiculous I don’t know where to start. You think more people are coming out as transgender as a … retaliation? So irrational and disconnected from reality.

I guess I have to spell it out more clearly for you.

In order for trans rights to succeed broadly, as a society we have to agree to give up single sex-based spaces. That is the cost of trans rights: we remove sex-based spaces and replace them with unisex spaces, gender-based spaces being in practice largely the same thing as unisex spaces. Sex-based spaces such as single-sex domestic violence shelters, prisons, locker rooms, hostels, dementia care units, etc. must, if trans rights is going to succeed long-term, be turned into gender-based spaces. There is no other way to square the idea that (using trans women as an example) men can identify as women: as women, they must be entitled to access to women’s spaces, or the foundation of the entire ideological framework crumbles.

Prior to Me Too, I don’t think that quid pro quo would have succeeded. Of course, prior to Me Too, plenty of transwomen politely used women’s bathrooms and plenty of women politely pretended not to notice, but it was a small group of people and didn’t extend to places like prisons. I don’t think as a society people were willing to destroy sex-based spaces across the board, but there was plenty of mostly ad hoc co-existence.

But then Me Too happened and for a brief moment, women told their truths and people even claimed to believe them. That, however, also opened a conversation about women’s spaces because some women talked about how single-sex spaces were often a reprieve from the assaults and harassment they faced in mixed-sex spaces. And a lot of men were pretty angry about both the fact women were speaking out but also that these women’s spaces they’d previously kind of ignored were suddenly part of the national conversation. That’s what helped set the stage for making the destruction of single-sex spaces an acceptable cost to gain trans rights: Me Too made those spaces an acceptable target.

Trans men and trans women have been using these spaces for decades without issue and without anyone giving up such spaces. It seems what you're really talking about is the .00001% chance a trans woman is in the bathroom fixing her lipstick in front of you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi PP I am not going to quote your long post, but I am the poster who originally linked the JHU glossary. I just wanted to say I appreciate (and always appreciate) your thoughtful posts. I’m not saying I agree with everything you write. For instance, I still find the misogyny inherent in those definitions horrifying and even in a world where people pick new language to deal with transphobia, it really bothers me that a lot of that new language is grounded in pervasive, deep, and widespread misogyny. But your posts always make me think, even if I don’t always agree with you. I just wanted to let you know that they are read and I think about them, and I am glad to hear about how well your DS is doing.

For the record I am not in favor of either bathroom bans or banning all gender affirming care for minors, though I would favor lifting malpractice caps. I come to this debate as a woman with a history of assault and sexual harassment behind me, and my primary driver in this entire discussion is the safety of women and children. I am pro gun control and pro reproductive rights. You don’t have to convince me of the importance of those. But I am also deeply appalled by what I see as a resurgence of violent sexism that comes with the trans rights movement. I can’t see how the world is made better by forcing naked bodies with penises into a previously safe spa for women. I can’t see how the world is made better when women who experience sexual harassment by transwomen in their locker rooms are attacked physically when sharing their stories. I can’t see how the destruction of single-sex spaces for girls and women in a world where we know unisex spaces increase assaults is making the world better.

It is not surprising that rapid rise of the power of the trans rights movement came on the heels of the Me Too movement. Any time in history that women really gather together, however briefly, to share their stories and their truths about assault and sex-based violence, there is an immediate and vicious backlash. And so Me Too and the trans rights movement are connected, as if the punishment women need to endure for having the gall to openly talk about sexual harassment, assault, and rape is the destruction of their safe spaces.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is, though I think in the end that women’s safe spaces will in fact be destroyed in the name of trans rights. If there is one thing I can say from history, it is that the safety of women is rarely a winning issue, and that women who advocate for that safety pay enormous prices. That’s what I see going on now, and I think in the end, the trans rights movement will prevail.

This is just ridiculous I don’t know where to start. You think more people are coming out as transgender as a … retaliation? So irrational and disconnected from reality.

I guess I have to spell it out more clearly for you.

In order for trans rights to succeed broadly, as a society we have to agree to give up single sex-based spaces. That is the cost of trans rights: we remove sex-based spaces and replace them with unisex spaces, gender-based spaces being in practice largely the same thing as unisex spaces. Sex-based spaces such as single-sex domestic violence shelters, prisons, locker rooms, hostels, dementia care units, etc. must, if trans rights is going to succeed long-term, be turned into gender-based spaces. There is no other way to square the idea that (using trans women as an example) men can identify as women: as women, they must be entitled to access to women’s spaces, or the foundation of the entire ideological framework crumbles.

Prior to Me Too, I don’t think that quid pro quo would have succeeded. Of course, prior to Me Too, plenty of transwomen politely used women’s bathrooms and plenty of women politely pretended not to notice, but it was a small group of people and didn’t extend to places like prisons. I don’t think as a society people were willing to destroy sex-based spaces across the board, but there was plenty of mostly ad hoc co-existence.

But then Me Too happened and for a brief moment, women told their truths and people even claimed to believe them. That, however, also opened a conversation about women’s spaces because some women talked about how single-sex spaces were often a reprieve from the assaults and harassment they faced in mixed-sex spaces. And a lot of men were pretty angry about both the fact women were speaking out but also that these women’s spaces they’d previously kind of ignored were suddenly part of the national conversation. That’s what helped set the stage for making the destruction of single-sex spaces an acceptable cost to gain trans rights: Me Too made those spaces an acceptable target.

Trans men and trans women have been using these spaces for decades without issue and without anyone giving up such spaces. It seems what you're really talking about is the .00001% chance a trans woman is in the bathroom fixing her lipstick in front of you.

Stop lying. Trans individuals have not been in opposite sex prisons, sports, locker rooms, and rape crises centers for decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi PP I am not going to quote your long post, but I am the poster who originally linked the JHU glossary. I just wanted to say I appreciate (and always appreciate) your thoughtful posts. I’m not saying I agree with everything you write. For instance, I still find the misogyny inherent in those definitions horrifying and even in a world where people pick new language to deal with transphobia, it really bothers me that a lot of that new language is grounded in pervasive, deep, and widespread misogyny. But your posts always make me think, even if I don’t always agree with you. I just wanted to let you know that they are read and I think about them, and I am glad to hear about how well your DS is doing.

For the record I am not in favor of either bathroom bans or banning all gender affirming care for minors, though I would favor lifting malpractice caps. I come to this debate as a woman with a history of assault and sexual harassment behind me, and my primary driver in this entire discussion is the safety of women and children. I am pro gun control and pro reproductive rights. You don’t have to convince me of the importance of those. But I am also deeply appalled by what I see as a resurgence of violent sexism that comes with the trans rights movement. I can’t see how the world is made better by forcing naked bodies with penises into a previously safe spa for women. I can’t see how the world is made better when women who experience sexual harassment by transwomen in their locker rooms are attacked physically when sharing their stories. I can’t see how the destruction of single-sex spaces for girls and women in a world where we know unisex spaces increase assaults is making the world better.

It is not surprising that rapid rise of the power of the trans rights movement came on the heels of the Me Too movement. Any time in history that women really gather together, however briefly, to share their stories and their truths about assault and sex-based violence, there is an immediate and vicious backlash. And so Me Too and the trans rights movement are connected, as if the punishment women need to endure for having the gall to openly talk about sexual harassment, assault, and rape is the destruction of their safe spaces.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is, though I think in the end that women’s safe spaces will in fact be destroyed in the name of trans rights. If there is one thing I can say from history, it is that the safety of women is rarely a winning issue, and that women who advocate for that safety pay enormous prices. That’s what I see going on now, and I think in the end, the trans rights movement will prevail.

This is just ridiculous I don’t know where to start. You think more people are coming out as transgender as a … retaliation? So irrational and disconnected from reality.

I guess I have to spell it out more clearly for you.

In order for trans rights to succeed broadly, as a society we have to agree to give up single sex-based spaces. That is the cost of trans rights: we remove sex-based spaces and replace them with unisex spaces, gender-based spaces being in practice largely the same thing as unisex spaces. Sex-based spaces such as single-sex domestic violence shelters, prisons, locker rooms, hostels, dementia care units, etc. must, if trans rights is going to succeed long-term, be turned into gender-based spaces. There is no other way to square the idea that (using trans women as an example) men can identify as women: as women, they must be entitled to access to women’s spaces, or the foundation of the entire ideological framework crumbles.

Prior to Me Too, I don’t think that quid pro quo would have succeeded. Of course, prior to Me Too, plenty of transwomen politely used women’s bathrooms and plenty of women politely pretended not to notice, but it was a small group of people and didn’t extend to places like prisons. I don’t think as a society people were willing to destroy sex-based spaces across the board, but there was plenty of mostly ad hoc co-existence.

But then Me Too happened and for a brief moment, women told their truths and people even claimed to believe them. That, however, also opened a conversation about women’s spaces because some women talked about how single-sex spaces were often a reprieve from the assaults and harassment they faced in mixed-sex spaces. And a lot of men were pretty angry about both the fact women were speaking out but also that these women’s spaces they’d previously kind of ignored were suddenly part of the national conversation. That’s what helped set the stage for making the destruction of single-sex spaces an acceptable cost to gain trans rights: Me Too made those spaces an acceptable target.

Not at all what happened.

Republicans were realizing they had no legit platform so they had to drum up good ‘ole LGBTQ+ fearmongering. Bathrooms! Sports! That’s why it’s such a hot “issue” today. Before that, transgender people were just trying to live their lives. Now they’ve become the target for politicians and hateful religious groups. And apparently hateful faux “feminists”.

People coming out as transgender has nothing to do with “me too”. So ridiculous.

The men (and women) who are pushing the RWNJ propaganda (bathrooms!) DGAF about women or transgender people. They just want votes and power and will do whatever they can to spin up controversy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a different take on the topic of not using the word woman in an effort to be inclusive. I’m the PP whose son is trans, and for the record I have a daughter who is hella feminist and also very mindful of using inclusive language. She only dates girls, but doesn’t identify as a lesbian, because she feels that strict woman-woman definition is too rigid.

Trans men are largely ignored in the trans debates. I’ve said it before. I’m pretty sure it’s due to a couple of issues, mostly relating to how men react to gender and sexuality. I think trans men pass more easily than trans women. It’s fairly easy for a trans man, even a short fella, to fit in if he has top surgery and a beard, wears cargo pants and has short hair. It’s not extremely expensive. Cis men don’t seem to have their guard up about trans men, because if they’re transphobic, they likely see them as women and not a threat, or worst case scenario they see them as women who need to be taught how to be women (like Brandon Teena-we all know that story). Mostly they go unnoticed and not much thought is given to trans men. Also, I think it’s much more taboo to call out possible trans men as women wearing pants because there’s not a stigma attached to women who wear “men’s” clothing, and because toxic masculinity dictates it would be quite insulting to a cis man if someone said he must be a woman because he’s short/thin/delicate. The language is ignored because trans men are swept under the rug. Also, I think there’s a little bit of an attitude of “who wouldn’t want to be a man,” “she’s so butch we thought of her as one of the guys anyway,” and “trans men can’t rape anyone so they’re not hurting anyone,” mixed in for good measure.

I’m glad DS passes and doesn’t face the same trouble as trans women on a daily basis, but I worry for his safety.

With trans women, it’s different because there are penises involved. I think it comes back to toxic masculinity and a misogynistic version of transphobia against trans women rather than trying to erase trans women. Trans women have been told over and over they’re not real women so they can’t call themselves women and we can’t call them women. It’s ridiculous to have to constantly identify them as trans. So we need some language that is true and inclusive of everyone. Also, a lot of the medical language is being misunderstood.* In this case with the lesbian definition, they’re obviously trying to be inclusive. While they didn’t remove the word men, they were also inclusive and said that gay doesn’t exclusively refer to men, sort of like how it’s explained that now some non-binary people prefer lesbian to describe their sexuality.

*I’ve seen people on this site get upset at birthing people/pregnant people terminology and say we’re definitely crazy if we think trans women can be pregnant. That’s a perspective I hadn’t considered, and reinforces my feelings that most of the trans hate happening is aimed at trans women. Obviously trans women aren’t getting pregnant, although they can be mothers. The pregnant people wording is for trans men who become pregnant. This is also for all the menstruation wording too. Obviously trans women aren’t menstruating, but if a trans man isn’t on hormones and hasn’t had a hysterectomy, they could still be menstruating (that’s a mind f*** when you have to deal with it, and is another reason I see red when all forms of medical transitioning are illegal for minors. Women and girls suppress periods all the damn time, but if a trans boy wants to do it all of a sudden we’re trying to erase women).

Anyway, if you keep othering people instead of including them, they don’t disappear, they just create new language so they’re not left out. I think the same thing is going to happen with bathrooms as is happening with language. People didn’t want to include trans women as women, so now we’re people with descriptors. But that doesn’t make the people who couldn’t abide trans women being called women happy, so they’re complaining about that. They don’t want trans women in their women’s bathrooms, and want people to go to the bathroom that matches their gender assigned at birth. They’re not going to be happy if trans men with beards and pecs sculpted by surgeons using the bathrooms with their young daughters or their wives. Which brings me back to, yes, bathroom laws are about erasing trans people, because other than single person bathrooms or unisex bathrooms (which are more dangerous because of cis men not trans people), there’s nowhere trans people can pee that would make transphobes happy. You know what sucks (besides someone else thinking they get to decide where you should pee)? UTIs because of holding it too long because you’re afraid to go to the bathroom in public.

Tl;dr f your feelings about a technically true definition that you don’t like. Some people are actually oppressed, including women, whose reproductive rights and healthcare options being taken away in red states. That’s an actual problem. If you care about women, let’s work on that together then we can sit down and talk about how your feelings are hurt because someone called you a person instead of a woman. And if it’s kids you care about instead of women, let’s work on gun safety measures to prevent not just school shootings, but accidental shootings of and by children, and the tragic loss of family members children have to cope with because guns are everywhere. Then after we fix that, we can have a rational discussion about how gender affirming care doesn’t need to mean no therapy and no questioning why they think they’re trans, and figure out the best way forward to keep kids alive, healthy, and happy.

That’s what makes this all sound like RWNJ faux outrage. People are pushing Rs because they think they will support women more? Look at how they are actually hurting and oppressing women right now. Such nonsense.

I read the whole thing and thought it was thoughtful and worth replying to to say so.

Maybe I wasn’t clear. I was agreeing with the post above. Specifically:

“Some people are actually oppressed, including women, whose reproductive rights and healthcare options being taken away in red states. That’s an actual problem. If you care about women, let’s work on that together then we can sit down and talk about how your feelings are hurt because someone called you a person instead of a woman.“

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi PP I am not going to quote your long post, but I am the poster who originally linked the JHU glossary. I just wanted to say I appreciate (and always appreciate) your thoughtful posts. I’m not saying I agree with everything you write. For instance, I still find the misogyny inherent in those definitions horrifying and even in a world where people pick new language to deal with transphobia, it really bothers me that a lot of that new language is grounded in pervasive, deep, and widespread misogyny. But your posts always make me think, even if I don’t always agree with you. I just wanted to let you know that they are read and I think about them, and I am glad to hear about how well your DS is doing.

For the record I am not in favor of either bathroom bans or banning all gender affirming care for minors, though I would favor lifting malpractice caps. I come to this debate as a woman with a history of assault and sexual harassment behind me, and my primary driver in this entire discussion is the safety of women and children. I am pro gun control and pro reproductive rights. You don’t have to convince me of the importance of those. But I am also deeply appalled by what I see as a resurgence of violent sexism that comes with the trans rights movement. I can’t see how the world is made better by forcing naked bodies with penises into a previously safe spa for women. I can’t see how the world is made better when women who experience sexual harassment by transwomen in their locker rooms are attacked physically when sharing their stories. I can’t see how the destruction of single-sex spaces for girls and women in a world where we know unisex spaces increase assaults is making the world better.

It is not surprising that rapid rise of the power of the trans rights movement came on the heels of the Me Too movement. Any time in history that women really gather together, however briefly, to share their stories and their truths about assault and sex-based violence, there is an immediate and vicious backlash. And so Me Too and the trans rights movement are connected, as if the punishment women need to endure for having the gall to openly talk about sexual harassment, assault, and rape is the destruction of their safe spaces.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is, though I think in the end that women’s safe spaces will in fact be destroyed in the name of trans rights. If there is one thing I can say from history, it is that the safety of women is rarely a winning issue, and that women who advocate for that safety pay enormous prices. That’s what I see going on now, and I think in the end, the trans rights movement will prevail.

This is just ridiculous I don’t know where to start. You think more people are coming out as transgender as a … retaliation? So irrational and disconnected from reality.

I guess I have to spell it out more clearly for you.

In order for trans rights to succeed broadly, as a society we have to agree to give up single sex-based spaces. That is the cost of trans rights: we remove sex-based spaces and replace them with unisex spaces, gender-based spaces being in practice largely the same thing as unisex spaces. Sex-based spaces such as single-sex domestic violence shelters, prisons, locker rooms, hostels, dementia care units, etc. must, if trans rights is going to succeed long-term, be turned into gender-based spaces. There is no other way to square the idea that (using trans women as an example) men can identify as women: as women, they must be entitled to access to women’s spaces, or the foundation of the entire ideological framework crumbles.

Prior to Me Too, I don’t think that quid pro quo would have succeeded. Of course, prior to Me Too, plenty of transwomen politely used women’s bathrooms and plenty of women politely pretended not to notice, but it was a small group of people and didn’t extend to places like prisons. I don’t think as a society people were willing to destroy sex-based spaces across the board, but there was plenty of mostly ad hoc co-existence.

But then Me Too happened and for a brief moment, women told their truths and people even claimed to believe them. That, however, also opened a conversation about women’s spaces because some women talked about how single-sex spaces were often a reprieve from the assaults and harassment they faced in mixed-sex spaces. And a lot of men were pretty angry about both the fact women were speaking out but also that these women’s spaces they’d previously kind of ignored were suddenly part of the national conversation. That’s what helped set the stage for making the destruction of single-sex spaces an acceptable cost to gain trans rights: Me Too made those spaces an acceptable target.

Not at all what happened.

Republicans were realizing they had no legit platform so they had to drum up good ‘ole LGBTQ+ fearmongering. Bathrooms! Sports! That’s why it’s such a hot “issue” today. Before that, transgender people were just trying to live their lives. Now they’ve become the target for politicians and hateful religious groups. And apparently hateful faux “feminists”.

People coming out as transgender has nothing to do with “me too”. So ridiculous.

The men (and women) who are pushing the RWNJ propaganda (bathrooms!) DGAF about women or transgender people. They just want votes and power and will do whatever they can to spin up controversy.

Right. Because trans activists had nothing to do with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi PP I am not going to quote your long post, but I am the poster who originally linked the JHU glossary. I just wanted to say I appreciate (and always appreciate) your thoughtful posts. I’m not saying I agree with everything you write. For instance, I still find the misogyny inherent in those definitions horrifying and even in a world where people pick new language to deal with transphobia, it really bothers me that a lot of that new language is grounded in pervasive, deep, and widespread misogyny. But your posts always make me think, even if I don’t always agree with you. I just wanted to let you know that they are read and I think about them, and I am glad to hear about how well your DS is doing.

For the record I am not in favor of either bathroom bans or banning all gender affirming care for minors, though I would favor lifting malpractice caps. I come to this debate as a woman with a history of assault and sexual harassment behind me, and my primary driver in this entire discussion is the safety of women and children. I am pro gun control and pro reproductive rights. You don’t have to convince me of the importance of those. But I am also deeply appalled by what I see as a resurgence of violent sexism that comes with the trans rights movement. I can’t see how the world is made better by forcing naked bodies with penises into a previously safe spa for women. I can’t see how the world is made better when women who experience sexual harassment by transwomen in their locker rooms are attacked physically when sharing their stories. I can’t see how the destruction of single-sex spaces for girls and women in a world where we know unisex spaces increase assaults is making the world better.

It is not surprising that rapid rise of the power of the trans rights movement came on the heels of the Me Too movement. Any time in history that women really gather together, however briefly, to share their stories and their truths about assault and sex-based violence, there is an immediate and vicious backlash. And so Me Too and the trans rights movement are connected, as if the punishment women need to endure for having the gall to openly talk about sexual harassment, assault, and rape is the destruction of their safe spaces.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is, though I think in the end that women’s safe spaces will in fact be destroyed in the name of trans rights. If there is one thing I can say from history, it is that the safety of women is rarely a winning issue, and that women who advocate for that safety pay enormous prices. That’s what I see going on now, and I think in the end, the trans rights movement will prevail.

This is just ridiculous I don’t know where to start. You think more people are coming out as transgender as a … retaliation? So irrational and disconnected from reality.

I guess I have to spell it out more clearly for you.

In order for trans rights to succeed broadly, as a society we have to agree to give up single sex-based spaces. That is the cost of trans rights: we remove sex-based spaces and replace them with unisex spaces, gender-based spaces being in practice largely the same thing as unisex spaces. Sex-based spaces such as single-sex domestic violence shelters, prisons, locker rooms, hostels, dementia care units, etc. must, if trans rights is going to succeed long-term, be turned into gender-based spaces. There is no other way to square the idea that (using trans women as an example) men can identify as women: as women, they must be entitled to access to women’s spaces, or the foundation of the entire ideological framework crumbles.

Prior to Me Too, I don’t think that quid pro quo would have succeeded. Of course, prior to Me Too, plenty of transwomen politely used women’s bathrooms and plenty of women politely pretended not to notice, but it was a small group of people and didn’t extend to places like prisons. I don’t think as a society people were willing to destroy sex-based spaces across the board, but there was plenty of mostly ad hoc co-existence.

But then Me Too happened and for a brief moment, women told their truths and people even claimed to believe them. That, however, also opened a conversation about women’s spaces because some women talked about how single-sex spaces were often a reprieve from the assaults and harassment they faced in mixed-sex spaces. And a lot of men were pretty angry about both the fact women were speaking out but also that these women’s spaces they’d previously kind of ignored were suddenly part of the national conversation. That’s what helped set the stage for making the destruction of single-sex spaces an acceptable cost to gain trans rights: Me Too made those spaces an acceptable target.

Not at all what happened.

Republicans were realizing they had no legit platform so they had to drum up good ‘ole LGBTQ+ fearmongering. Bathrooms! Sports! That’s why it’s such a hot “issue” today. Before that, transgender people were just trying to live their lives. Now they’ve become the target for politicians and hateful religious groups. And apparently hateful faux “feminists”.

People coming out as transgender has nothing to do with “me too”. So ridiculous.

The men (and women) who are pushing the RWNJ propaganda (bathrooms!) DGAF about women or transgender people. They just want votes and power and will do whatever they can to spin up controversy.

Right. Because trans activists had nothing to do with it.

Your abject fear of the transgenders is bordering on a mental health crisis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi PP I am not going to quote your long post, but I am the poster who originally linked the JHU glossary. I just wanted to say I appreciate (and always appreciate) your thoughtful posts. I’m not saying I agree with everything you write. For instance, I still find the misogyny inherent in those definitions horrifying and even in a world where people pick new language to deal with transphobia, it really bothers me that a lot of that new language is grounded in pervasive, deep, and widespread misogyny. But your posts always make me think, even if I don’t always agree with you. I just wanted to let you know that they are read and I think about them, and I am glad to hear about how well your DS is doing.

For the record I am not in favor of either bathroom bans or banning all gender affirming care for minors, though I would favor lifting malpractice caps. I come to this debate as a woman with a history of assault and sexual harassment behind me, and my primary driver in this entire discussion is the safety of women and children. I am pro gun control and pro reproductive rights. You don’t have to convince me of the importance of those. But I am also deeply appalled by what I see as a resurgence of violent sexism that comes with the trans rights movement. I can’t see how the world is made better by forcing naked bodies with penises into a previously safe spa for women. I can’t see how the world is made better when women who experience sexual harassment by transwomen in their locker rooms are attacked physically when sharing their stories. I can’t see how the destruction of single-sex spaces for girls and women in a world where we know unisex spaces increase assaults is making the world better.

It is not surprising that rapid rise of the power of the trans rights movement came on the heels of the Me Too movement. Any time in history that women really gather together, however briefly, to share their stories and their truths about assault and sex-based violence, there is an immediate and vicious backlash. And so Me Too and the trans rights movement are connected, as if the punishment women need to endure for having the gall to openly talk about sexual harassment, assault, and rape is the destruction of their safe spaces.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is, though I think in the end that women’s safe spaces will in fact be destroyed in the name of trans rights. If there is one thing I can say from history, it is that the safety of women is rarely a winning issue, and that women who advocate for that safety pay enormous prices. That’s what I see going on now, and I think in the end, the trans rights movement will prevail.

This is just ridiculous I don’t know where to start. You think more people are coming out as transgender as a … retaliation? So irrational and disconnected from reality.

I guess I have to spell it out more clearly for you.

In order for trans rights to succeed broadly, as a society we have to agree to give up single sex-based spaces. That is the cost of trans rights: we remove sex-based spaces and replace them with unisex spaces, gender-based spaces being in practice largely the same thing as unisex spaces. Sex-based spaces such as single-sex domestic violence shelters, prisons, locker rooms, hostels, dementia care units, etc. must, if trans rights is going to succeed long-term, be turned into gender-based spaces. There is no other way to square the idea that (using trans women as an example) men can identify as women: as women, they must be entitled to access to women’s spaces, or the foundation of the entire ideological framework crumbles.

Prior to Me Too, I don’t think that quid pro quo would have succeeded. Of course, prior to Me Too, plenty of transwomen politely used women’s bathrooms and plenty of women politely pretended not to notice, but it was a small group of people and didn’t extend to places like prisons. I don’t think as a society people were willing to destroy sex-based spaces across the board, but there was plenty of mostly ad hoc co-existence.

But then Me Too happened and for a brief moment, women told their truths and people even claimed to believe them. That, however, also opened a conversation about women’s spaces because some women talked about how single-sex spaces were often a reprieve from the assaults and harassment they faced in mixed-sex spaces. And a lot of men were pretty angry about both the fact women were speaking out but also that these women’s spaces they’d previously kind of ignored were suddenly part of the national conversation. That’s what helped set the stage for making the destruction of single-sex spaces an acceptable cost to gain trans rights: Me Too made those spaces an acceptable target.

Not at all what happened.

Republicans were realizing they had no legit platform so they had to drum up good ‘ole LGBTQ+ fearmongering. Bathrooms! Sports! That’s why it’s such a hot “issue” today. Before that, transgender people were just trying to live their lives. Now they’ve become the target for politicians and hateful religious groups. And apparently hateful faux “feminists”.

People coming out as transgender has nothing to do with “me too”. So ridiculous.

The men (and women) who are pushing the RWNJ propaganda (bathrooms!) DGAF about women or transgender people. They just want votes and power and will do whatever they can to spin up controversy.

Right. Because trans activists had nothing to do with it.

Your abject fear of the transgenders is bordering on a mental health crisis.

I am the mental healthcare hospital PP. I have absolutely zero fear of transgender people.

[Anonymous]

Reading these posts it is plain to me why people are so terrified of the documentary “What is a Woman?” It is must watch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi PP I am not going to quote your long post, but I am the poster who originally linked the JHU glossary. I just wanted to say I appreciate (and always appreciate) your thoughtful posts. I’m not saying I agree with everything you write. For instance, I still find the misogyny inherent in those definitions horrifying and even in a world where people pick new language to deal with transphobia, it really bothers me that a lot of that new language is grounded in pervasive, deep, and widespread misogyny. But your posts always make me think, even if I don’t always agree with you. I just wanted to let you know that they are read and I think about them, and I am glad to hear about how well your DS is doing.

For the record I am not in favor of either bathroom bans or banning all gender affirming care for minors, though I would favor lifting malpractice caps. I come to this debate as a woman with a history of assault and sexual harassment behind me, and my primary driver in this entire discussion is the safety of women and children. I am pro gun control and pro reproductive rights. You don’t have to convince me of the importance of those. But I am also deeply appalled by what I see as a resurgence of violent sexism that comes with the trans rights movement. I can’t see how the world is made better by forcing naked bodies with penises into a previously safe spa for women. I can’t see how the world is made better when women who experience sexual harassment by transwomen in their locker rooms are attacked physically when sharing their stories. I can’t see how the destruction of single-sex spaces for girls and women in a world where we know unisex spaces increase assaults is making the world better.

It is not surprising that rapid rise of the power of the trans rights movement came on the heels of the Me Too movement. Any time in history that women really gather together, however briefly, to share their stories and their truths about assault and sex-based violence, there is an immediate and vicious backlash. And so Me Too and the trans rights movement are connected, as if the punishment women need to endure for having the gall to openly talk about sexual harassment, assault, and rape is the destruction of their safe spaces.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is, though I think in the end that women’s safe spaces will in fact be destroyed in the name of trans rights. If there is one thing I can say from history, it is that the safety of women is rarely a winning issue, and that women who advocate for that safety pay enormous prices. That’s what I see going on now, and I think in the end, the trans rights movement will prevail.

This is just ridiculous I don’t know where to start. You think more people are coming out as transgender as a … retaliation? So irrational and disconnected from reality.

I guess I have to spell it out more clearly for you.

In order for trans rights to succeed broadly, as a society we have to agree to give up single sex-based spaces. That is the cost of trans rights: we remove sex-based spaces and replace them with unisex spaces, gender-based spaces being in practice largely the same thing as unisex spaces. Sex-based spaces such as single-sex domestic violence shelters, prisons, locker rooms, hostels, dementia care units, etc. must, if trans rights is going to succeed long-term, be turned into gender-based spaces. There is no other way to square the idea that (using trans women as an example) men can identify as women: as women, they must be entitled to access to women’s spaces, or the foundation of the entire ideological framework crumbles.

Prior to Me Too, I don’t think that quid pro quo would have succeeded. Of course, prior to Me Too, plenty of transwomen politely used women’s bathrooms and plenty of women politely pretended not to notice, but it was a small group of people and didn’t extend to places like prisons. I don’t think as a society people were willing to destroy sex-based spaces across the board, but there was plenty of mostly ad hoc co-existence.

But then Me Too happened and for a brief moment, women told their truths and people even claimed to believe them. That, however, also opened a conversation about women’s spaces because some women talked about how single-sex spaces were often a reprieve from the assaults and harassment they faced in mixed-sex spaces. And a lot of men were pretty angry about both the fact women were speaking out but also that these women’s spaces they’d previously kind of ignored were suddenly part of the national conversation. That’s what helped set the stage for making the destruction of single-sex spaces an acceptable cost to gain trans rights: Me Too made those spaces an acceptable target.

Not at all what happened.

Republicans were realizing they had no legit platform so they had to drum up good ‘ole LGBTQ+ fearmongering. Bathrooms! Sports! That’s why it’s such a hot “issue” today. Before that, transgender people were just trying to live their lives. Now they’ve become the target for politicians and hateful religious groups. And apparently hateful faux “feminists”.

People coming out as transgender has nothing to do with “me too”. So ridiculous.

The men (and women) who are pushing the RWNJ propaganda (bathrooms!) DGAF about women or transgender people. They just want votes and power and will do whatever they can to spin up controversy.

Right. Because trans activists had nothing to do with it.

The “activists” have no power. The actual people with power, who are actually sitting in legislatures all over the country (primarily white men), are trying to take away rights of both women *and* transgender people. Look at how many anti-women and anti-LGBTQ bills have been proposed over the last several years. It’s scary.

They’d love it if women try to tear down other women. It just makes their job easier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi PP I am not going to quote your long post, but I am the poster who originally linked the JHU glossary. I just wanted to say I appreciate (and always appreciate) your thoughtful posts. I’m not saying I agree with everything you write. For instance, I still find the misogyny inherent in those definitions horrifying and even in a world where people pick new language to deal with transphobia, it really bothers me that a lot of that new language is grounded in pervasive, deep, and widespread misogyny. But your posts always make me think, even if I don’t always agree with you. I just wanted to let you know that they are read and I think about them, and I am glad to hear about how well your DS is doing.

For the record I am not in favor of either bathroom bans or banning all gender affirming care for minors, though I would favor lifting malpractice caps. I come to this debate as a woman with a history of assault and sexual harassment behind me, and my primary driver in this entire discussion is the safety of women and children. I am pro gun control and pro reproductive rights. You don’t have to convince me of the importance of those. But I am also deeply appalled by what I see as a resurgence of violent sexism that comes with the trans rights movement. I can’t see how the world is made better by forcing naked bodies with penises into a previously safe spa for women. I can’t see how the world is made better when women who experience sexual harassment by transwomen in their locker rooms are attacked physically when sharing their stories. I can’t see how the destruction of single-sex spaces for girls and women in a world where we know unisex spaces increase assaults is making the world better.

It is not surprising that rapid rise of the power of the trans rights movement came on the heels of the Me Too movement. Any time in history that women really gather together, however briefly, to share their stories and their truths about assault and sex-based violence, there is an immediate and vicious backlash. And so Me Too and the trans rights movement are connected, as if the punishment women need to endure for having the gall to openly talk about sexual harassment, assault, and rape is the destruction of their safe spaces.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is, though I think in the end that women’s safe spaces will in fact be destroyed in the name of trans rights. If there is one thing I can say from history, it is that the safety of women is rarely a winning issue, and that women who advocate for that safety pay enormous prices. That’s what I see going on now, and I think in the end, the trans rights movement will prevail.

This is just ridiculous I don’t know where to start. You think more people are coming out as transgender as a … retaliation? So irrational and disconnected from reality.

I guess I have to spell it out more clearly for you.

In order for trans rights to succeed broadly, as a society we have to agree to give up single sex-based spaces. That is the cost of trans rights: we remove sex-based spaces and replace them with unisex spaces, gender-based spaces being in practice largely the same thing as unisex spaces. Sex-based spaces such as single-sex domestic violence shelters, prisons, locker rooms, hostels, dementia care units, etc. must, if trans rights is going to succeed long-term, be turned into gender-based spaces. There is no other way to square the idea that (using trans women as an example) men can identify as women: as women, they must be entitled to access to women’s spaces, or the foundation of the entire ideological framework crumbles.

Prior to Me Too, I don’t think that quid pro quo would have succeeded. Of course, prior to Me Too, plenty of transwomen politely used women’s bathrooms and plenty of women politely pretended not to notice, but it was a small group of people and didn’t extend to places like prisons. I don’t think as a society people were willing to destroy sex-based spaces across the board, but there was plenty of mostly ad hoc co-existence.

But then Me Too happened and for a brief moment, women told their truths and people even claimed to believe them. That, however, also opened a conversation about women’s spaces because some women talked about how single-sex spaces were often a reprieve from the assaults and harassment they faced in mixed-sex spaces. And a lot of men were pretty angry about both the fact women were speaking out but also that these women’s spaces they’d previously kind of ignored were suddenly part of the national conversation. That’s what helped set the stage for making the destruction of single-sex spaces an acceptable cost to gain trans rights: Me Too made those spaces an acceptable target.

Not at all what happened.

Republicans were realizing they had no legit platform so they had to drum up good ‘ole LGBTQ+ fearmongering. Bathrooms! Sports! That’s why it’s such a hot “issue” today. Before that, transgender people were just trying to live their lives. Now they’ve become the target for politicians and hateful religious groups. And apparently hateful faux “feminists”.

People coming out as transgender has nothing to do with “me too”. So ridiculous.

The men (and women) who are pushing the RWNJ propaganda (bathrooms!) DGAF about women or transgender people. They just want votes and power and will do whatever they can to spin up controversy.

Right. Because trans activists had nothing to do with it.

The “activists” have no power. The actual people with power, who are actually sitting in legislatures all over the country (primarily white men), are trying to take away rights of both women *and* transgender people. Look at how many anti-women and anti-LGBTQ bills have been proposed over the last several years. It’s scary.

They’d love it if women try to tear down other women. It just makes their job easier.

Are you kidding? Than have TONS of power. People are silenced if they speak out in opposition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Reading these posts it is plain to me why people are so terrified of the documentary “What is a Woman?” It is must watch.

Right. I want a RWNJ white conservative man (from the trash Daily Wire of all places) to define and help women.

Talk about misogyny.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi PP I am not going to quote your long post, but I am the poster who originally linked the JHU glossary. I just wanted to say I appreciate (and always appreciate) your thoughtful posts. I’m not saying I agree with everything you write. For instance, I still find the misogyny inherent in those definitions horrifying and even in a world where people pick new language to deal with transphobia, it really bothers me that a lot of that new language is grounded in pervasive, deep, and widespread misogyny. But your posts always make me think, even if I don’t always agree with you. I just wanted to let you know that they are read and I think about them, and I am glad to hear about how well your DS is doing.

For the record I am not in favor of either bathroom bans or banning all gender affirming care for minors, though I would favor lifting malpractice caps. I come to this debate as a woman with a history of assault and sexual harassment behind me, and my primary driver in this entire discussion is the safety of women and children. I am pro gun control and pro reproductive rights. You don’t have to convince me of the importance of those. But I am also deeply appalled by what I see as a resurgence of violent sexism that comes with the trans rights movement. I can’t see how the world is made better by forcing naked bodies with penises into a previously safe spa for women. I can’t see how the world is made better when women who experience sexual harassment by transwomen in their locker rooms are attacked physically when sharing their stories. I can’t see how the destruction of single-sex spaces for girls and women in a world where we know unisex spaces increase assaults is making the world better.

It is not surprising that rapid rise of the power of the trans rights movement came on the heels of the Me Too movement. Any time in history that women really gather together, however briefly, to share their stories and their truths about assault and sex-based violence, there is an immediate and vicious backlash. And so Me Too and the trans rights movement are connected, as if the punishment women need to endure for having the gall to openly talk about sexual harassment, assault, and rape is the destruction of their safe spaces.

I honestly don’t know what the answer is, though I think in the end that women’s safe spaces will in fact be destroyed in the name of trans rights. If there is one thing I can say from history, it is that the safety of women is rarely a winning issue, and that women who advocate for that safety pay enormous prices. That’s what I see going on now, and I think in the end, the trans rights movement will prevail.

This is just ridiculous I don’t know where to start. You think more people are coming out as transgender as a … retaliation? So irrational and disconnected from reality.

I guess I have to spell it out more clearly for you.

In order for trans rights to succeed broadly, as a society we have to agree to give up single sex-based spaces. That is the cost of trans rights: we remove sex-based spaces and replace them with unisex spaces, gender-based spaces being in practice largely the same thing as unisex spaces. Sex-based spaces such as single-sex domestic violence shelters, prisons, locker rooms, hostels, dementia care units, etc. must, if trans rights is going to succeed long-term, be turned into gender-based spaces. There is no other way to square the idea that (using trans women as an example) men can identify as women: as women, they must be entitled to access to women’s spaces, or the foundation of the entire ideological framework crumbles.

Prior to Me Too, I don’t think that quid pro quo would have succeeded. Of course, prior to Me Too, plenty of transwomen politely used women’s bathrooms and plenty of women politely pretended not to notice, but it was a small group of people and didn’t extend to places like prisons. I don’t think as a society people were willing to destroy sex-based spaces across the board, but there was plenty of mostly ad hoc co-existence.

But then Me Too happened and for a brief moment, women told their truths and people even claimed to believe them. That, however, also opened a conversation about women’s spaces because some women talked about how single-sex spaces were often a reprieve from the assaults and harassment they faced in mixed-sex spaces. And a lot of men were pretty angry about both the fact women were speaking out but also that these women’s spaces they’d previously kind of ignored were suddenly part of the national conversation. That’s what helped set the stage for making the destruction of single-sex spaces an acceptable cost to gain trans rights: Me Too made those spaces an acceptable target.

Not at all what happened.

Republicans were realizing they had no legit platform so they had to drum up good ‘ole LGBTQ+ fearmongering. Bathrooms! Sports! That’s why it’s such a hot “issue” today. Before that, transgender people were just trying to live their lives. Now they’ve become the target for politicians and hateful religious groups. And apparently hateful faux “feminists”.

People coming out as transgender has nothing to do with “me too”. So ridiculous.

The men (and women) who are pushing the RWNJ propaganda (bathrooms!) DGAF about women or transgender people. They just want votes and power and will do whatever they can to spin up controversy.

Right. Because trans activists had nothing to do with it.

The “activists” have no power. The actual people with power, who are actually sitting in legislatures all over the country (primarily white men), are trying to take away rights of both women *and* transgender people. Look at how many anti-women and anti-LGBTQ bills have been proposed over the last several years. It’s scary.

They’d love it if women try to tear down other women. It just makes their job easier.

Are you kidding? Than have TONS of power. People are silenced if they speak out in opposition.

“Silenced”? That’s not power.

How many anti-women and anti-LGBTQ bills were proposed in the last five years? How many actually passed? It’s scary.

That is power.