2022 Olympics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, all it would take is tens of millions of dollars that I'm sure someone has lying around.

I mean, yes. Skating is expensive. Ice time is expensive. Top coaching is expensive. Ballet is expensive. Opera is expensive. High art is expensive. What do we want to do? We either accept that they will be open only to the wealthy or to the privately sponsored. Or, you find public funding to make it available to most. I'm afraid there's no easy answer.

Chen's coach thinks skating academies are the answer where knowledge is centralized and systematic, and all skaters get the benefit of the same knowledge and experience.

Which is great for the 2% who become sucessful and not for the 98% who don't.

Or you could spend those tens of millions educating and supporting hundreds of kids and lifting them out of poverty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, all it would take is tens of millions of dollars that I'm sure someone has lying around.

I mean, yes. Skating is expensive. Ice time is expensive. Top coaching is expensive. Ballet is expensive. Opera is expensive. High art is expensive. What do we want to do? We either accept that they will be open only to the wealthy or to the privately sponsored. Or, you find public funding to make it available to most. I'm afraid there's no easy answer.

Chen's coach thinks skating academies are the answer where knowledge is centralized and systematic, and all skaters get the benefit of the same knowledge and experience.

Which is great for the 2% who become sucessful and not for the 98% who don't.

Or you could spend those tens of millions educating and supporting hundreds of kids and lifting them out of poverty.

Or you could, for instance, close down a few military bases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:she wasn't the all around olympic champion, so it's a bit misleading

?

khorkina

Well, in Sydney she very well might have if the vault hadn't been screwed up.

I do not disagree with you. That vault fiasco was just horrible

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, all it would take is tens of millions of dollars that I'm sure someone has lying around.

I mean, yes. Skating is expensive. Ice time is expensive. Top coaching is expensive. Ballet is expensive. Opera is expensive. High art is expensive. What do we want to do? We either accept that they will be open only to the wealthy or to the privately sponsored. Or, you find public funding to make it available to most. I'm afraid there's no easy answer.

Chen's coach thinks skating academies are the answer where knowledge is centralized and systematic, and all skaters get the benefit of the same knowledge and experience.

So who pays for them? Are you proposing to publicly fund academies that will only be accessible to the elite? What politician is going to support building an arena open only to elite skaters? Do you think that people who have none elite skaters, or kids who play hockey, or who just want more publicly accessible ice will be ok with that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A must watch.

I feel like this is hypocritical. Young retirement is common in skating. Oksana, Tara and Sarah all left in their teens. The fact is that few Olympic champions stay around. The motivation after the big O just isn't there. Really, the only hook of the story is the "lack of variety in their nationality", the fact that all these girls are Russian and come from the same coach. It would be better if they analyzed the last two Olympic pools and came up with the average age of a woman skater competing at the Olympics. Or worlds. Then you'll see if the world is getting younger, if skaters are retiring sooner, or if it's just Eteri.

Keep watching though. They go through the last 8 years -- the point they make is that the girls are 1) trained on a poor technique where they basically do a rotation before leaving the ice and putting a ton of strain on their backs 2) the component scores seem to be inflated the year they debut, beyond what makes sense, and then the scores fade 3) there is no interest in helping them through puberty by adjusting the training methods.

[Anonymous]

One of the things that REALLY has helped gynastics is the rise of college gymnastics. Those meets pack houses and get a ton of eyeballs on TV. They also provide a place for sucessful gymnasts who are not elite/national team level to compete (and do so having fun and eating.)

It would be nice if skaters had that option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, all it would take is tens of millions of dollars that I'm sure someone has lying around.

I mean, yes. Skating is expensive. Ice time is expensive. Top coaching is expensive. Ballet is expensive. Opera is expensive. High art is expensive. What do we want to do? We either accept that they will be open only to the wealthy or to the privately sponsored. Or, you find public funding to make it available to most. I'm afraid there's no easy answer.

Chen's coach thinks skating academies are the answer where knowledge is centralized and systematic, and all skaters get the benefit of the same knowledge and experience.

So who pays for them? Are you proposing to publicly fund academies that will only be accessible to the elite? What politician is going to support building an arena open only to elite skaters? Do you think that people who have none elite skaters, or kids who play hockey, or who just want more publicly accessible ice will be ok with that?

Just improvising - you could, for instance, have an academy where children could start with lessons when they are four or five, but a proper system - not a pathetic once-a-week. Lessons two or three times a week, off ice fitness, ballet, choreo, nutrition etc. Have a natural progression/attrition system where each year they pass exams, and only those who pass advance to the next level, and the rest are counseled out and advised to stay with skating as a hobby.

It's not that they are accessible only to the elite, it's that they exist with an explicit purpose to train future elite of the sport. If you just want to skate as a hobby, you can still do that on your own time and dime. Not every parent and child wants serious training, and that's okay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A must watch.

I feel like this is hypocritical. Young retirement is common in skating. Oksana, Tara and Sarah all left in their teens. The fact is that few Olympic champions stay around. The motivation after the big O just isn't there. Really, the only hook of the story is the "lack of variety in their nationality", the fact that all these girls are Russian and come from the same coach. It would be better if they analyzed the last two Olympic pools and came up with the average age of a woman skater competing at the Olympics. Or worlds. Then you'll see if the world is getting younger, if skaters are retiring sooner, or if it's just Eteri.

Keep watching though. They go through the last 8 years -- the point they make is that the girls are 1) trained on a poor technique where they basically do a rotation before leaving the ice and putting a ton of strain on their backs 2) the component scores seem to be inflated the year they debut, beyond what makes sense, and then the scores fade 3) there is no interest in helping them through puberty by adjusting the training methods.

So a couple of points. First, prerotations are penalized under the Code of Points so there are trained judges out there who should be taking points off if that happens. That's a made-up issue.

The second issue is true but it is not Eteri's problem, it exists for all skaters. Tech and component scores are supposed to be independent of each other. That is, in theory, a skater can be excellent in "artistry" but suck on technique, and vice versa, someone like Trusova can get excellent scores on technique but get dumped in component scores. In practice, this happens very rarely. Typically a skater who executes tech content with excellence and panache will get elevated component scores even if they are entirely unjustified. Judges still cannot separate both well in their mind. Trusova, for instance, should NOT be getting high component scores. Neither should have Pluschenko when he skates. But the judges are human so they are mesmerized by tech fireworks to the degree where they hand out artistry scores like candy. It's a common problem and it existed before Eteri.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A must watch.

I feel like this is hypocritical. Young retirement is common in skating. Oksana, Tara and Sarah all left in their teens. The fact is that few Olympic champions stay around. The motivation after the big O just isn't there. Really, the only hook of the story is the "lack of variety in their nationality", the fact that all these girls are Russian and come from the same coach. It would be better if they analyzed the last two Olympic pools and came up with the average age of a woman skater competing at the Olympics. Or worlds. Then you'll see if the world is getting younger, if skaters are retiring sooner, or if it's just Eteri.

Ok but it's pretty well known that Eteri's skaters come with an expiration date- most of her skaters are retiring seem to be retiring due to injury or inability to keep up with the younger skaters. Until yesterday only Zagitova had won an OGM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, all it would take is tens of millions of dollars that I'm sure someone has lying around.

I mean, yes. Skating is expensive. Ice time is expensive. Top coaching is expensive. Ballet is expensive. Opera is expensive. High art is expensive. What do we want to do? We either accept that they will be open only to the wealthy or to the privately sponsored. Or, you find public funding to make it available to most. I'm afraid there's no easy answer.

Chen's coach thinks skating academies are the answer where knowledge is centralized and systematic, and all skaters get the benefit of the same knowledge and experience.

So who pays for them? Are you proposing to publicly fund academies that will only be accessible to the elite? What politician is going to support building an arena open only to elite skaters? Do you think that people who have none elite skaters, or kids who play hockey, or who just want more publicly accessible ice will be ok with that?

Just improvising - you could, for instance, have an academy where children could start with lessons when they are four or five, but a proper system - not a pathetic once-a-week. Lessons two or three times a week, off ice fitness, ballet, choreo, nutrition etc. Have a natural progression/attrition system where each year they pass exams, and only those who pass advance to the next level, and the rest are counseled out and advised to stay with skating as a hobby.

It's not that they are accessible only to the elite, it's that they exist with an explicit purpose to train future elite of the sport. If you just want to skate as a hobby, you can still do that on your own time and dime. Not every parent and child wants serious training, and that's okay.

Sure, but most parents know how hard it is to get ice and would never support a publicly funded facility that excludes the vast majority. Also very very few people care about the US's ability to field slightly more competive figure skaters

[Anonymous]

The US doesn’t care about skating in non Olympic times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A must watch.

I feel like this is hypocritical. Young retirement is common in skating. Oksana, Tara and Sarah all left in their teens. The fact is that few Olympic champions stay around. The motivation after the big O just isn't there. Really, the only hook of the story is the "lack of variety in their nationality", the fact that all these girls are Russian and come from the same coach. It would be better if they analyzed the last two Olympic pools and came up with the average age of a woman skater competing at the Olympics. Or worlds. Then you'll see if the world is getting younger, if skaters are retiring sooner, or if it's just Eteri.

Keep watching though. They go through the last 8 years -- the point they make is that the girls are 1) trained on a poor technique where they basically do a rotation before leaving the ice and putting a ton of strain on their backs 2) the component scores seem to be inflated the year they debut, beyond what makes sense, and then the scores fade 3) there is no interest in helping them through puberty by adjusting the training methods.

So a couple of points. First, prerotations are penalized under the Code of Points so there are trained judges out there who should be taking points off if that happens. That's a made-up issue.

The second issue is true but it is not Eteri's problem, it exists for all skaters. Tech and component scores are supposed to be independent of each other. That is, in theory, a skater can be excellent in "artistry" but suck on technique, and vice versa, someone like Trusova can get excellent scores on technique but get dumped in component scores. In practice, this happens very rarely. Typically a skater who executes tech content with excellence and panache will get elevated component scores even if they are entirely unjustified. Judges still cannot separate both well in their mind. Trusova, for instance, should NOT be getting high component scores. Neither should have Pluschenko when he skates. But the judges are human so they are mesmerized by tech fireworks to the degree where they hand out artistry scores like candy. It's a common problem and it existed before Eteri.

But that's her point- they aren't getting deductions and the component scores seem to rise exactly the year they debut the newest model, then fall afterwards. And she's clear at the end that its not Eteri's problem -- its that Eteri is exploiting a sport that already allows it to happen. She likens it to the Karolyis, which I think is fitting. The amount of injuries and eating disorders looks a lot like the Karyoli era here. She also credits the fact that skating is hugely popular is Russia and that millions of girls participate in lessons, so they certainly have a giant pool of talent to work with.

The problem basically rolls up to the ISU and how it chooses to reward skaters on the ice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, all it would take is tens of millions of dollars that I'm sure someone has lying around.

I mean, yes. Skating is expensive. Ice time is expensive. Top coaching is expensive. Ballet is expensive. Opera is expensive. High art is expensive. What do we want to do? We either accept that they will be open only to the wealthy or to the privately sponsored. Or, you find public funding to make it available to most. I'm afraid there's no easy answer.

Chen's coach thinks skating academies are the answer where knowledge is centralized and systematic, and all skaters get the benefit of the same knowledge and experience.

So who pays for them? Are you proposing to publicly fund academies that will only be accessible to the elite? What politician is going to support building an arena open only to elite skaters? Do you think that people who have none elite skaters, or kids who play hockey, or who just want more publicly accessible ice will be ok with that?

Just improvising - you could, for instance, have an academy where children could start with lessons when they are four or five, but a proper system - not a pathetic once-a-week. Lessons two or three times a week, off ice fitness, ballet, choreo, nutrition etc. Have a natural progression/attrition system where each year they pass exams, and only those who pass advance to the next level, and the rest are counseled out and advised to stay with skating as a hobby.

It's not that they are accessible only to the elite, it's that they exist with an explicit purpose to train future elite of the sport. If you just want to skate as a hobby, you can still do that on your own time and dime. Not every parent and child wants serious training, and that's okay.

Sure, but most parents know how hard it is to get ice and would never support a publicly funded facility that excludes the vast majority. Also very very few people care about the US's ability to field slightly more competive figure skaters

Very well. I agree with you. It cannot be done. It should not be done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A must watch.

I feel like this is hypocritical. Young retirement is common in skating. Oksana, Tara and Sarah all left in their teens. The fact is that few Olympic champions stay around. The motivation after the big O just isn't there. Really, the only hook of the story is the "lack of variety in their nationality", the fact that all these girls are Russian and come from the same coach. It would be better if they analyzed the last two Olympic pools and came up with the average age of a woman skater competing at the Olympics. Or worlds. Then you'll see if the world is getting younger, if skaters are retiring sooner, or if it's just Eteri.

Ok but it's pretty well known that Eteri's skaters come with an expiration date- most of her skaters are retiring seem to be retiring due to injury or inability to keep up with the younger skaters. Until yesterday only Zagitova had won an OGM.

The bolded is the reason why the majority of skaters retire. It's not Eteri's problem.

I don't quite understand your Zagitova comment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Sure, all it would take is tens of millions of dollars that I'm sure someone has lying around.

I mean, yes. Skating is expensive. Ice time is expensive. Top coaching is expensive. Ballet is expensive. Opera is expensive. High art is expensive. What do we want to do? We either accept that they will be open only to the wealthy or to the privately sponsored. Or, you find public funding to make it available to most. I'm afraid there's no easy answer.

Chen's coach thinks skating academies are the answer where knowledge is centralized and systematic, and all skaters get the benefit of the same knowledge and experience.

So who pays for them? Are you proposing to publicly fund academies that will only be accessible to the elite? What politician is going to support building an arena open only to elite skaters? Do you think that people who have none elite skaters, or kids who play hockey, or who just want more publicly accessible ice will be ok with that?

Just improvising - you could, for instance, have an academy where children could start with lessons when they are four or five, but a proper system - not a pathetic once-a-week. Lessons two or three times a week, off ice fitness, ballet, choreo, nutrition etc. Have a natural progression/attrition system where each year they pass exams, and only those who pass advance to the next level, and the rest are counseled out and advised to stay with skating as a hobby.

It's not that they are accessible only to the elite, it's that they exist with an explicit purpose to train future elite of the sport. If you just want to skate as a hobby, you can still do that on your own time and dime. Not every parent and child wants serious training, and that's okay.

Sure, but most parents know how hard it is to get ice and would never support a publicly funded facility that excludes the vast majority. Also very very few people care about the US's ability to field slightly more competive figure skaters

Very well. I agree with you. It cannot be done. It should not be done.

We in the US do not belive in funding youth sports - really at all. Only at the top rungs for olympic sports. Like most things American, we believe in the free market (aka parent funding) for our kids, which is pretty on par with the rest of US domestic policies. If the US did start to do youth sports academies like they do elsewhere, our standings could improve, particularly in sports like soccer. But that's not how the US works. We have parent-pay programs and college. The end.