Wife is interested in opening up our marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don’t know. I feel just as bad for her as for the guys in sexless marriages. If you have a kink, playing around the edges probably isn’t enough to scratch that itch. Just like the guys who want 4x a week aren’t going to be satisfied when the wife compromises and puts out once a week. It sucks because one person basically holds all the cards and can dole out whatever they want and the other person has to take it and smile. If they try to discuss solutions, they’re treated like they acted on their worse impulses, when their only crime was honesty.

I agree with this. This is a fundamental sexual incompatibility. What OP sees as compromise that his wife should be happy with is, for her, probably the bare minimum she needs to not feel sexually dead. That doesn't mean that OP has to go along with it if it's really not his thing, but there's also probably nothing he can do to help his wife to be fully content in their marriage either because it's not about him--it's about who she is as a sexual being. You can't really turn off being a kinky/sexually adventurous person. As someone in this very same situation--kinky person who married young before I realized what I was and that it was going to be a fundamental incompatibility, I can tell you it sucks. I've not cheated, but it is absolutely a pretty corrosive thing in our marriage.

FFS. Of course you can't "turn off" being a sexually adventurous person, but you can certainly control those impulses, just as you do any number of other impulses detrimental to a relationship.

I'd love to eat donuts and smoke cigarettes every night, but I don't. I'd love to quit my job and travel the world again, but I don't.

Why? Because I made promises to someone that I love and we have shared goals and dreams.

Those dreams require sacrifices to achieve.

OP's wife is acting like a 2 YO, thinking that she can have her cake and eat it too. Not the way the real world works.

She's not acting like a 2 year old. She asked if he would consider it. She came to her husband with an avenue with which she wants to explore her sexuality to see if she could get his buy-in. That's pretty damn mature. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it not so. Not everyone considers monogamy a prerequisite for marriage, and a lot of us consider an ideal marriage to be one in which both parties have the freedom to flourish as individuals too. For a lot of us, the ability to be fully realized in our sexuality is part of that. If you don't understand that, that's fine, but, if that's who you are, you can't just sweep it under the rug either.

To me, OP is the one acting like a 2-year old; I understand it, but it is still immature--if you know she's kinky, it shouldn't be a gigantic shock that she might be interested in swinging or some other type of ethical non-monogamy. But, given the shaming language he uses about her kinkiness, I would wager a bet that swinging is not so much her thing as she just wants the opportunity to be with someone who fully embraces her sexuality. There's nothing about an open marriage inherently harmful to their shared life together, if they are both on board. Now, since OP is not, his wife has some decisions to make. But, she's not wrong for asking.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with 2 consenting adults agreeing to an open marriage.

However, obviously, OP and his spouse agreed that monogamy was a prerequisite to their marriage. Now she's apparently trying to go back on the lifelong commitment that she made in order to pursue her selfish impulses. That's immature and unfair at best, absurdly childish at worst.

I also challenge your assumption that the desire to be "fully realized in our sexuality" by having an open marriage is (a) somehow different from any other impulse, and (b) an innate feature beyond anyone's control.

On (a), it's no different than the urge to eat too many donuts, smoke cigarettes, or ride a motorcycle extremely fast. It's a primal urge from the lizard brain.

On (b), are you really such a slave to your desires? If so, I feel sorry for you.

Lots of people stumble into monogamy (and marriage for that matter) because it's what's expected or "normal" in society and not because they've taken the time to know themselves well and consider what type of commitment best suits their personality, needs and preferences. People are immature like that. Most people, I'd say. Especially people who marry in their early 20s. They often don't even know who they are yet. If they are lucky, they grow together. If they are not lucky, they grow apart. OP and his wife have to talk about who they are and how they have grown and changed and see if they still want to be together now, and what that looks like. OP needs to drop the shaming of his wife for discovering different interests, though he can be clear that it's not where he is or what he wants AT ALL. Maybe there's something else that can be just as fun and exciting for her that he feels better about. But they can't know that unless they talk about it, and they can't really talk about it if OP is going to punish her and be angry at her for the fact that they have to talk about it. Part of being deeply committed to another person is being willing to talk about what they want and what you want and how those things fit together (or don't). Which is not to say that he has to agree to open the marriage (he doesn't!). But if he's pissed that he even has to deal with the fact that his wife has desires different from his own, well, that's not great for a marriage. He can say he's hurt, he can say he's scared, he can say that in fact his deepest desires line up pretty well with the default social structure for sex and marriage and that he's concerned that this is a fundamental problem that they didn't recognize at the start of their marriage. And see if she says it's fundamental or it's something she just thought would be fun and a fair number of men would be excited about, so she took a shot. But if he's that opposed to it, then it's not something she needs.

Quoted PP. I agree that people grow, learn and change over time.

I also agree that people have different interests and desires, and that spouses should generally discuss and work together to achieve their wants.

However, these approaches only work when one is operating within the bounds of the marital covenant.

"I want to pursue a less lucrative but more fulfilling career" or even "I want to sail around the world" = don't judge, discuss.

"I can't be fulfilled unless I sleep with other people" = judge away. Frankly, the marriage was over the moment she made the suggestion, 'cause you can't unsay that. The marital agreement is broken and the trust will never return. And it's on her head.

The marital covenant is whatever the two people in the marriage want it to be. OP's wife married young and made a commitment to a monogamy before she really understood herself. His wife was honest about her desires. In return, OP basically kink shamed his wife and that's not something he can take back either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don’t know. I feel just as bad for her as for the guys in sexless marriages. If you have a kink, playing around the edges probably isn’t enough to scratch that itch. Just like the guys who want 4x a week aren’t going to be satisfied when the wife compromises and puts out once a week. It sucks because one person basically holds all the cards and can dole out whatever they want and the other person has to take it and smile. If they try to discuss solutions, they’re treated like they acted on their worse impulses, when their only crime was honesty.

I agree with this. This is a fundamental sexual incompatibility. What OP sees as compromise that his wife should be happy with is, for her, probably the bare minimum she needs to not feel sexually dead. That doesn't mean that OP has to go along with it if it's really not his thing, but there's also probably nothing he can do to help his wife to be fully content in their marriage either because it's not about him--it's about who she is as a sexual being. You can't really turn off being a kinky/sexually adventurous person. As someone in this very same situation--kinky person who married young before I realized what I was and that it was going to be a fundamental incompatibility, I can tell you it sucks. I've not cheated, but it is absolutely a pretty corrosive thing in our marriage.

FFS. Of course you can't "turn off" being a sexually adventurous person, but you can certainly control those impulses, just as you do any number of other impulses detrimental to a relationship.

I'd love to eat donuts and smoke cigarettes every night, but I don't. I'd love to quit my job and travel the world again, but I don't.

Why? Because I made promises to someone that I love and we have shared goals and dreams.

Those dreams require sacrifices to achieve.

OP's wife is acting like a 2 YO, thinking that she can have her cake and eat it too. Not the way the real world works.

She's not acting like a 2 year old. She asked if he would consider it. She came to her husband with an avenue with which she wants to explore her sexuality to see if she could get his buy-in. That's pretty damn mature. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it not so. Not everyone considers monogamy a prerequisite for marriage, and a lot of us consider an ideal marriage to be one in which both parties have the freedom to flourish as individuals too. For a lot of us, the ability to be fully realized in our sexuality is part of that. If you don't understand that, that's fine, but, if that's who you are, you can't just sweep it under the rug either.

To me, OP is the one acting like a 2-year old; I understand it, but it is still immature--if you know she's kinky, it shouldn't be a gigantic shock that she might be interested in swinging or some other type of ethical non-monogamy. But, given the shaming language he uses about her kinkiness, I would wager a bet that swinging is not so much her thing as she just wants the opportunity to be with someone who fully embraces her sexuality. There's nothing about an open marriage inherently harmful to their shared life together, if they are both on board. Now, since OP is not, his wife has some decisions to make. But, she's not wrong for asking.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with 2 consenting adults agreeing to an open marriage.

However, obviously, OP and his spouse agreed that monogamy was a prerequisite to their marriage. Now she's apparently trying to go back on the lifelong commitment that she made in order to pursue her selfish impulses. That's immature and unfair at best, absurdly childish at worst.

I also challenge your assumption that the desire to be "fully realized in our sexuality" by having an open marriage is (a) somehow different from any other impulse, and (b) an innate feature beyond anyone's control.

On (a), it's no different than the urge to eat too many donuts, smoke cigarettes, or ride a motorcycle extremely fast. It's a primal urge from the lizard brain.

On (b), are you really such a slave to your desires? If so, I feel sorry for you.

Lots of people stumble into monogamy (and marriage for that matter) because it's what's expected or "normal" in society and not because they've taken the time to know themselves well and consider what type of commitment best suits their personality, needs and preferences. People are immature like that. Most people, I'd say. Especially people who marry in their early 20s. They often don't even know who they are yet. If they are lucky, they grow together. If they are not lucky, they grow apart. OP and his wife have to talk about who they are and how they have grown and changed and see if they still want to be together now, and what that looks like. OP needs to drop the shaming of his wife for discovering different interests, though he can be clear that it's not where he is or what he wants AT ALL. Maybe there's something else that can be just as fun and exciting for her that he feels better about. But they can't know that unless they talk about it, and they can't really talk about it if OP is going to punish her and be angry at her for the fact that they have to talk about it. Part of being deeply committed to another person is being willing to talk about what they want and what you want and how those things fit together (or don't). Which is not to say that he has to agree to open the marriage (he doesn't!). But if he's pissed that he even has to deal with the fact that his wife has desires different from his own, well, that's not great for a marriage. He can say he's hurt, he can say he's scared, he can say that in fact his deepest desires line up pretty well with the default social structure for sex and marriage and that he's concerned that this is a fundamental problem that they didn't recognize at the start of their marriage. And see if she says it's fundamental or it's something she just thought would be fun and a fair number of men would be excited about, so she took a shot. But if he's that opposed to it, then it's not something she needs.

Quoted PP. I agree that people grow, learn and change over time.

I also agree that people have different interests and desires, and that spouses should generally discuss and work together to achieve their wants.

However, these approaches only work when one is operating within the bounds of the marital covenant.

"I want to pursue a less lucrative but more fulfilling career" or even "I want to sail around the world" = don't judge, discuss.

"I can't be fulfilled unless I sleep with other people" = judge away. Frankly, the marriage was over the moment she made the suggestion, 'cause you can't unsay that. The marital agreement is broken and the trust will never return. And it's on her head.

The marital covenant is whatever the two people in the marriage want it to be. OP's wife married young and made a commitment to a monogamy before she really understood herself. His wife was honest about her desires. In return, OP basically kink shamed his wife and that's not something he can take back either.

OP's wife was legally and adult when she signed the marriage contract. Marriage in our western society is still assumed to be between two people.
Opening up the marriage, swinging etc would generally be seen as a violation of the marriage contract.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don’t know. I feel just as bad for her as for the guys in sexless marriages. If you have a kink, playing around the edges probably isn’t enough to scratch that itch. Just like the guys who want 4x a week aren’t going to be satisfied when the wife compromises and puts out once a week. It sucks because one person basically holds all the cards and can dole out whatever they want and the other person has to take it and smile. If they try to discuss solutions, they’re treated like they acted on their worse impulses, when their only crime was honesty.

I agree with this. This is a fundamental sexual incompatibility. What OP sees as compromise that his wife should be happy with is, for her, probably the bare minimum she needs to not feel sexually dead. That doesn't mean that OP has to go along with it if it's really not his thing, but there's also probably nothing he can do to help his wife to be fully content in their marriage either because it's not about him--it's about who she is as a sexual being. You can't really turn off being a kinky/sexually adventurous person. As someone in this very same situation--kinky person who married young before I realized what I was and that it was going to be a fundamental incompatibility, I can tell you it sucks. I've not cheated, but it is absolutely a pretty corrosive thing in our marriage.

FFS. Of course you can't "turn off" being a sexually adventurous person, but you can certainly control those impulses, just as you do any number of other impulses detrimental to a relationship.

I'd love to eat donuts and smoke cigarettes every night, but I don't. I'd love to quit my job and travel the world again, but I don't.

Why? Because I made promises to someone that I love and we have shared goals and dreams.

Those dreams require sacrifices to achieve.

OP's wife is acting like a 2 YO, thinking that she can have her cake and eat it too. Not the way the real world works.

She's not acting like a 2 year old. She asked if he would consider it. She came to her husband with an avenue with which she wants to explore her sexuality to see if she could get his buy-in. That's pretty damn mature. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it not so. Not everyone considers monogamy a prerequisite for marriage, and a lot of us consider an ideal marriage to be one in which both parties have the freedom to flourish as individuals too. For a lot of us, the ability to be fully realized in our sexuality is part of that. If you don't understand that, that's fine, but, if that's who you are, you can't just sweep it under the rug either.

To me, OP is the one acting like a 2-year old; I understand it, but it is still immature--if you know she's kinky, it shouldn't be a gigantic shock that she might be interested in swinging or some other type of ethical non-monogamy. But, given the shaming language he uses about her kinkiness, I would wager a bet that swinging is not so much her thing as she just wants the opportunity to be with someone who fully embraces her sexuality. There's nothing about an open marriage inherently harmful to their shared life together, if they are both on board. Now, since OP is not, his wife has some decisions to make. But, she's not wrong for asking.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with 2 consenting adults agreeing to an open marriage.

However, obviously, OP and his spouse agreed that monogamy was a prerequisite to their marriage. Now she's apparently trying to go back on the lifelong commitment that she made in order to pursue her selfish impulses. That's immature and unfair at best, absurdly childish at worst.

I also challenge your assumption that the desire to be "fully realized in our sexuality" by having an open marriage is (a) somehow different from any other impulse, and (b) an innate feature beyond anyone's control.

On (a), it's no different than the urge to eat too many donuts, smoke cigarettes, or ride a motorcycle extremely fast. It's a primal urge from the lizard brain.

On (b), are you really such a slave to your desires? If so, I feel sorry for you.

Lots of people stumble into monogamy (and marriage for that matter) because it's what's expected or "normal" in society and not because they've taken the time to know themselves well and consider what type of commitment best suits their personality, needs and preferences. People are immature like that. Most people, I'd say. Especially people who marry in their early 20s. They often don't even know who they are yet. If they are lucky, they grow together. If they are not lucky, they grow apart. OP and his wife have to talk about who they are and how they have grown and changed and see if they still want to be together now, and what that looks like. OP needs to drop the shaming of his wife for discovering different interests, though he can be clear that it's not where he is or what he wants AT ALL. Maybe there's something else that can be just as fun and exciting for her that he feels better about. But they can't know that unless they talk about it, and they can't really talk about it if OP is going to punish her and be angry at her for the fact that they have to talk about it. Part of being deeply committed to another person is being willing to talk about what they want and what you want and how those things fit together (or don't). Which is not to say that he has to agree to open the marriage (he doesn't!). But if he's pissed that he even has to deal with the fact that his wife has desires different from his own, well, that's not great for a marriage. He can say he's hurt, he can say he's scared, he can say that in fact his deepest desires line up pretty well with the default social structure for sex and marriage and that he's concerned that this is a fundamental problem that they didn't recognize at the start of their marriage. And see if she says it's fundamental or it's something she just thought would be fun and a fair number of men would be excited about, so she took a shot. But if he's that opposed to it, then it's not something she needs.

Quoted PP. I agree that people grow, learn and change over time.

I also agree that people have different interests and desires, and that spouses should generally discuss and work together to achieve their wants.

However, these approaches only work when one is operating within the bounds of the marital covenant.

"I want to pursue a less lucrative but more fulfilling career" or even "I want to sail around the world" = don't judge, discuss.

"I can't be fulfilled unless I sleep with other people" = judge away. Frankly, the marriage was over the moment she made the suggestion, 'cause you can't unsay that. The marital agreement is broken and the trust will never return. And it's on her head.

The marital covenant is whatever the two people in the marriage want it to be. OP's wife married young and made a commitment to a monogamy before she really understood herself. His wife was honest about her desires. In return, OP basically kink shamed his wife and that's not something he can take back either.

First, it's only a covenant when both people agree. They did--monogamy for life.

Now she wants to change the deal. He doesn't agree.

It's clearly her actions that are destroying the marriage.

Second, honesty and naivete do not excuse selfishness or breaking vows.

"Honey, I'm going to Vegas and plan to blow our life savings on hookers and blow. You cool with that? It's OK b/c I'm being honest with you and discussing in advance!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don’t know. I feel just as bad for her as for the guys in sexless marriages. If you have a kink, playing around the edges probably isn’t enough to scratch that itch. Just like the guys who want 4x a week aren’t going to be satisfied when the wife compromises and puts out once a week. It sucks because one person basically holds all the cards and can dole out whatever they want and the other person has to take it and smile. If they try to discuss solutions, they’re treated like they acted on their worse impulses, when their only crime was honesty.

I agree with this. This is a fundamental sexual incompatibility. What OP sees as compromise that his wife should be happy with is, for her, probably the bare minimum she needs to not feel sexually dead. That doesn't mean that OP has to go along with it if it's really not his thing, but there's also probably nothing he can do to help his wife to be fully content in their marriage either because it's not about him--it's about who she is as a sexual being. You can't really turn off being a kinky/sexually adventurous person. As someone in this very same situation--kinky person who married young before I realized what I was and that it was going to be a fundamental incompatibility, I can tell you it sucks. I've not cheated, but it is absolutely a pretty corrosive thing in our marriage.

FFS. Of course you can't "turn off" being a sexually adventurous person, but you can certainly control those impulses, just as you do any number of other impulses detrimental to a relationship.

I'd love to eat donuts and smoke cigarettes every night, but I don't. I'd love to quit my job and travel the world again, but I don't.

Why? Because I made promises to someone that I love and we have shared goals and dreams.

Those dreams require sacrifices to achieve.

OP's wife is acting like a 2 YO, thinking that she can have her cake and eat it too. Not the way the real world works.

She's not acting like a 2 year old. She asked if he would consider it. She came to her husband with an avenue with which she wants to explore her sexuality to see if she could get his buy-in. That's pretty damn mature. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it not so. Not everyone considers monogamy a prerequisite for marriage, and a lot of us consider an ideal marriage to be one in which both parties have the freedom to flourish as individuals too. For a lot of us, the ability to be fully realized in our sexuality is part of that. If you don't understand that, that's fine, but, if that's who you are, you can't just sweep it under the rug either.

To me, OP is the one acting like a 2-year old; I understand it, but it is still immature--if you know she's kinky, it shouldn't be a gigantic shock that she might be interested in swinging or some other type of ethical non-monogamy. But, given the shaming language he uses about her kinkiness, I would wager a bet that swinging is not so much her thing as she just wants the opportunity to be with someone who fully embraces her sexuality. There's nothing about an open marriage inherently harmful to their shared life together, if they are both on board. Now, since OP is not, his wife has some decisions to make. But, she's not wrong for asking.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with 2 consenting adults agreeing to an open marriage.

However, obviously, OP and his spouse agreed that monogamy was a prerequisite to their marriage. Now she's apparently trying to go back on the lifelong commitment that she made in order to pursue her selfish impulses. That's immature and unfair at best, absurdly childish at worst.

I also challenge your assumption that the desire to be "fully realized in our sexuality" by having an open marriage is (a) somehow different from any other impulse, and (b) an innate feature beyond anyone's control.

On (a), it's no different than the urge to eat too many donuts, smoke cigarettes, or ride a motorcycle extremely fast. It's a primal urge from the lizard brain.

On (b), are you really such a slave to your desires? If so, I feel sorry for you.

Except, monogamy is the default position in our society and many people, especially young people, don't know that it can be negotiable. OP's wife may not have realized that she had a choice about being monogamous in a long term relationship.

And women's sexuality changes with time, for a whole lot of women. Tons of women live happily as straight women or lesbian women when they are younger and as they move into middle age find out that they suddenly have an interest in women or men that wasn't there before. Women fundamentally can't guarantee to be one sexual orientation their whole life because their sexuality may change with time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don’t know. I feel just as bad for her as for the guys in sexless marriages. If you have a kink, playing around the edges probably isn’t enough to scratch that itch. Just like the guys who want 4x a week aren’t going to be satisfied when the wife compromises and puts out once a week. It sucks because one person basically holds all the cards and can dole out whatever they want and the other person has to take it and smile. If they try to discuss solutions, they’re treated like they acted on their worse impulses, when their only crime was honesty.

I agree with this. This is a fundamental sexual incompatibility. What OP sees as compromise that his wife should be happy with is, for her, probably the bare minimum she needs to not feel sexually dead. That doesn't mean that OP has to go along with it if it's really not his thing, but there's also probably nothing he can do to help his wife to be fully content in their marriage either because it's not about him--it's about who she is as a sexual being. You can't really turn off being a kinky/sexually adventurous person. As someone in this very same situation--kinky person who married young before I realized what I was and that it was going to be a fundamental incompatibility, I can tell you it sucks. I've not cheated, but it is absolutely a pretty corrosive thing in our marriage.

FFS. Of course you can't "turn off" being a sexually adventurous person, but you can certainly control those impulses, just as you do any number of other impulses detrimental to a relationship.

I'd love to eat donuts and smoke cigarettes every night, but I don't. I'd love to quit my job and travel the world again, but I don't.

Why? Because I made promises to someone that I love and we have shared goals and dreams.

Those dreams require sacrifices to achieve.

OP's wife is acting like a 2 YO, thinking that she can have her cake and eat it too. Not the way the real world works.

She's not acting like a 2 year old. She asked if he would consider it. She came to her husband with an avenue with which she wants to explore her sexuality to see if she could get his buy-in. That's pretty damn mature. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it not so. Not everyone considers monogamy a prerequisite for marriage, and a lot of us consider an ideal marriage to be one in which both parties have the freedom to flourish as individuals too. For a lot of us, the ability to be fully realized in our sexuality is part of that. If you don't understand that, that's fine, but, if that's who you are, you can't just sweep it under the rug either.

To me, OP is the one acting like a 2-year old; I understand it, but it is still immature--if you know she's kinky, it shouldn't be a gigantic shock that she might be interested in swinging or some other type of ethical non-monogamy. But, given the shaming language he uses about her kinkiness, I would wager a bet that swinging is not so much her thing as she just wants the opportunity to be with someone who fully embraces her sexuality. There's nothing about an open marriage inherently harmful to their shared life together, if they are both on board. Now, since OP is not, his wife has some decisions to make. But, she's not wrong for asking.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with 2 consenting adults agreeing to an open marriage.

However, obviously, OP and his spouse agreed that monogamy was a prerequisite to their marriage. Now she's apparently trying to go back on the lifelong commitment that she made in order to pursue her selfish impulses. That's immature and unfair at best, absurdly childish at worst.

I also challenge your assumption that the desire to be "fully realized in our sexuality" by having an open marriage is (a) somehow different from any other impulse, and (b) an innate feature beyond anyone's control.

On (a), it's no different than the urge to eat too many donuts, smoke cigarettes, or ride a motorcycle extremely fast. It's a primal urge from the lizard brain.

On (b), are you really such a slave to your desires? If so, I feel sorry for you.

Lots of people stumble into monogamy (and marriage for that matter) because it's what's expected or "normal" in society and not because they've taken the time to know themselves well and consider what type of commitment best suits their personality, needs and preferences. People are immature like that. Most people, I'd say. Especially people who marry in their early 20s. They often don't even know who they are yet. If they are lucky, they grow together. If they are not lucky, they grow apart. OP and his wife have to talk about who they are and how they have grown and changed and see if they still want to be together now, and what that looks like. OP needs to drop the shaming of his wife for discovering different interests, though he can be clear that it's not where he is or what he wants AT ALL. Maybe there's something else that can be just as fun and exciting for her that he feels better about. But they can't know that unless they talk about it, and they can't really talk about it if OP is going to punish her and be angry at her for the fact that they have to talk about it. Part of being deeply committed to another person is being willing to talk about what they want and what you want and how those things fit together (or don't). Which is not to say that he has to agree to open the marriage (he doesn't!). But if he's pissed that he even has to deal with the fact that his wife has desires different from his own, well, that's not great for a marriage. He can say he's hurt, he can say he's scared, he can say that in fact his deepest desires line up pretty well with the default social structure for sex and marriage and that he's concerned that this is a fundamental problem that they didn't recognize at the start of their marriage. And see if she says it's fundamental or it's something she just thought would be fun and a fair number of men would be excited about, so she took a shot. But if he's that opposed to it, then it's not something she needs.

Quoted PP. I agree that people grow, learn and change over time.

I also agree that people have different interests and desires, and that spouses should generally discuss and work together to achieve their wants.

However, these approaches only work when one is operating within the bounds of the marital covenant.

"I want to pursue a less lucrative but more fulfilling career" or even "I want to sail around the world" = don't judge, discuss.

"I can't be fulfilled unless I sleep with other people" = judge away. Frankly, the marriage was over the moment she made the suggestion, 'cause you can't unsay that. The marital agreement is broken and the trust will never return. And it's on her head.

The marital covenant is whatever the two people in the marriage want it to be. OP's wife married young and made a commitment to a monogamy before she really understood herself. His wife was honest about her desires. In return, OP basically kink shamed his wife and that's not something he can take back either.

First, it's only a covenant when both people agree. They did--monogamy for life.

Now she wants to change the deal. He doesn't agree.

It's clearly her actions that are destroying the marriage.

Second, honesty and naivete do not excuse selfishness or breaking vows.

"Honey, I'm going to Vegas and plan to blow our life savings on hookers and blow. You cool with that? It's OK b/c I'm being honest with you and discussing in advance!"

Good point and "Gee, I was only 22 year old male when we got married. I want to experience hookers and blow in Las Vegas."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don’t know. I feel just as bad for her as for the guys in sexless marriages. If you have a kink, playing around the edges probably isn’t enough to scratch that itch. Just like the guys who want 4x a week aren’t going to be satisfied when the wife compromises and puts out once a week. It sucks because one person basically holds all the cards and can dole out whatever they want and the other person has to take it and smile. If they try to discuss solutions, they’re treated like they acted on their worse impulses, when their only crime was honesty.

I agree with this. This is a fundamental sexual incompatibility. What OP sees as compromise that his wife should be happy with is, for her, probably the bare minimum she needs to not feel sexually dead. That doesn't mean that OP has to go along with it if it's really not his thing, but there's also probably nothing he can do to help his wife to be fully content in their marriage either because it's not about him--it's about who she is as a sexual being. You can't really turn off being a kinky/sexually adventurous person. As someone in this very same situation--kinky person who married young before I realized what I was and that it was going to be a fundamental incompatibility, I can tell you it sucks. I've not cheated, but it is absolutely a pretty corrosive thing in our marriage.

FFS. Of course you can't "turn off" being a sexually adventurous person, but you can certainly control those impulses, just as you do any number of other impulses detrimental to a relationship.

I'd love to eat donuts and smoke cigarettes every night, but I don't. I'd love to quit my job and travel the world again, but I don't.

Why? Because I made promises to someone that I love and we have shared goals and dreams.

Those dreams require sacrifices to achieve.

OP's wife is acting like a 2 YO, thinking that she can have her cake and eat it too. Not the way the real world works.

She's not acting like a 2 year old. She asked if he would consider it. She came to her husband with an avenue with which she wants to explore her sexuality to see if she could get his buy-in. That's pretty damn mature. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it not so. Not everyone considers monogamy a prerequisite for marriage, and a lot of us consider an ideal marriage to be one in which both parties have the freedom to flourish as individuals too. For a lot of us, the ability to be fully realized in our sexuality is part of that. If you don't understand that, that's fine, but, if that's who you are, you can't just sweep it under the rug either.

To me, OP is the one acting like a 2-year old; I understand it, but it is still immature--if you know she's kinky, it shouldn't be a gigantic shock that she might be interested in swinging or some other type of ethical non-monogamy. But, given the shaming language he uses about her kinkiness, I would wager a bet that swinging is not so much her thing as she just wants the opportunity to be with someone who fully embraces her sexuality. There's nothing about an open marriage inherently harmful to their shared life together, if they are both on board. Now, since OP is not, his wife has some decisions to make. But, she's not wrong for asking.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with 2 consenting adults agreeing to an open marriage.

However, obviously, OP and his spouse agreed that monogamy was a prerequisite to their marriage. Now she's apparently trying to go back on the lifelong commitment that she made in order to pursue her selfish impulses. That's immature and unfair at best, absurdly childish at worst.

I also challenge your assumption that the desire to be "fully realized in our sexuality" by having an open marriage is (a) somehow different from any other impulse, and (b) an innate feature beyond anyone's control.

On (a), it's no different than the urge to eat too many donuts, smoke cigarettes, or ride a motorcycle extremely fast. It's a primal urge from the lizard brain.

On (b), are you really such a slave to your desires? If so, I feel sorry for you.

Except, monogamy is the default position in our society and many people, especially young people, don't know that it can be negotiable. OP's wife may not have realized that she had a choice about being monogamous in a long term relationship.

And women's sexuality changes with time, for a whole lot of women. Tons of women live happily as straight women or lesbian women when they are younger and as they move into middle age find out that they suddenly have an interest in women or men that wasn't there before. Women fundamentally can't guarantee to be one sexual orientation their whole life because their sexuality may change with time.

I never heard of monogamy being negotiable in any age bracket, 20's, 30's, 40's 50's 60's etc.

Monogamy being negotiable=divorce.

[Anonymous]

OP, woman here. Many women are okay with plain vanilla sex
with some variety here and there.

People die from that auto erotica stuff. A lot of times it
is accidental deaths but sad still.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I never heard of monogamy being negotiable in any age bracket, 20's, 30's, 40's 50's 60's etc.

Monogamy being negotiable=divorce.

Your ignorance is pretty obvious. Some people have open marriages. Some people swing. Some people have polyamorous marriages. Most people have monogamous marriages, but not everyone does. I've had a nonmongamous marriage for 26 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I never heard of monogamy being negotiable in any age bracket, 20's, 30's, 40's 50's 60's etc.

Monogamy being negotiable=divorce.

Your ignorance is pretty obvious. Some people have open marriages. Some people swing. Some people have polyamorous marriages. Most people have monogamous marriages, but not everyone does. I've had a nonmongamous marriage for 26 years.

+1. Only 10 years for me, but I aspire to be you, PP!

[Anonymous]

What the monogamy for life side isn't seeing here is that people can change. While I THOUGHT my husband was good for monogamy for life, it turns out at 42 he started rethinking ... and he brought it up to me to discuss.

This is NOT a breach of contract. It is negotiations. If both parties agree, you change and grow. A marriage can be whatever you want it to be!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What the monogamy for life side isn't seeing here is that people can change. While I THOUGHT my husband was good for monogamy for life, it turns out at 42 he started rethinking ... and he brought it up to me to discuss.

This is NOT a breach of contract. It is negotiations. If both parties agree, you change and grow. A marriage can be whatever you want it to be!!!

And if both don't? As is the case here?

Then the person who wants to change the agreement bears the responsibility.

Simple.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I don’t know. I feel just as bad for her as for the guys in sexless marriages. If you have a kink, playing around the edges probably isn’t enough to scratch that itch. Just like the guys who want 4x a week aren’t going to be satisfied when the wife compromises and puts out once a week. It sucks because one person basically holds all the cards and can dole out whatever they want and the other person has to take it and smile. If they try to discuss solutions, they’re treated like they acted on their worse impulses, when their only crime was honesty.

I agree with this. This is a fundamental sexual incompatibility. What OP sees as compromise that his wife should be happy with is, for her, probably the bare minimum she needs to not feel sexually dead. That doesn't mean that OP has to go along with it if it's really not his thing, but there's also probably nothing he can do to help his wife to be fully content in their marriage either because it's not about him--it's about who she is as a sexual being. You can't really turn off being a kinky/sexually adventurous person. As someone in this very same situation--kinky person who married young before I realized what I was and that it was going to be a fundamental incompatibility, I can tell you it sucks. I've not cheated, but it is absolutely a pretty corrosive thing in our marriage.

FFS. Of course you can't "turn off" being a sexually adventurous person, but you can certainly control those impulses, just as you do any number of other impulses detrimental to a relationship.

I'd love to eat donuts and smoke cigarettes every night, but I don't. I'd love to quit my job and travel the world again, but I don't.

Why? Because I made promises to someone that I love and we have shared goals and dreams.

Those dreams require sacrifices to achieve.

OP's wife is acting like a 2 YO, thinking that she can have her cake and eat it too. Not the way the real world works.

She's not acting like a 2 year old. She asked if he would consider it. She came to her husband with an avenue with which she wants to explore her sexuality to see if she could get his buy-in. That's pretty damn mature. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it not so. Not everyone considers monogamy a prerequisite for marriage, and a lot of us consider an ideal marriage to be one in which both parties have the freedom to flourish as individuals too. For a lot of us, the ability to be fully realized in our sexuality is part of that. If you don't understand that, that's fine, but, if that's who you are, you can't just sweep it under the rug either.

To me, OP is the one acting like a 2-year old; I understand it, but it is still immature--if you know she's kinky, it shouldn't be a gigantic shock that she might be interested in swinging or some other type of ethical non-monogamy. But, given the shaming language he uses about her kinkiness, I would wager a bet that swinging is not so much her thing as she just wants the opportunity to be with someone who fully embraces her sexuality. There's nothing about an open marriage inherently harmful to their shared life together, if they are both on board. Now, since OP is not, his wife has some decisions to make. But, she's not wrong for asking.

I agree that there's nothing wrong with 2 consenting adults agreeing to an open marriage.

However, obviously, OP and his spouse agreed that monogamy was a prerequisite to their marriage. Now she's apparently trying to go back on the lifelong commitment that she made in order to pursue her selfish impulses. That's immature and unfair at best, absurdly childish at worst.

I also challenge your assumption that the desire to be "fully realized in our sexuality" by having an open marriage is (a) somehow different from any other impulse, and (b) an innate feature beyond anyone's control.

On (a), it's no different than the urge to eat too many donuts, smoke cigarettes, or ride a motorcycle extremely fast. It's a primal urge from the lizard brain.

On (b), are you really such a slave to your desires? If so, I feel sorry for you.

Except, monogamy is the default position in our society and many people, especially young people, don't know that it can be negotiable. OP's wife may not have realized that she had a choice about being monogamous in a long term relationship.

And women's sexuality changes with time, for a whole lot of women. Tons of women live happily as straight women or lesbian women when they are younger and as they move into middle age find out that they suddenly have an interest in women or men that wasn't there before. Women fundamentally can't guarantee to be one sexual orientation their whole life because their sexuality may change with time.

Your first paragraph is remarkably patronizing. Women are more than capable of understanding who they are and what choices they have.

Regardless, even if we accept every single thing you say as true, being young and dumb explains but does not excuse wife's behavior here.

You make a promise, you stick to it. You don't, it's on you.

Being young and

[Anonymous]

OP -- you need to be crystal clear with her that you don't want this, period, and then talk things out on that basis.

[Anonymous]

OP again

Wow this blew up, thanks to those of you who offered support and solid advice. I had to revisit the conversation with my wife since it’s definitely not a topic to be left unresolved. She tried to ask about opening up the marriage to women only (she’s “bi” I guess) but again, I have no interest in sharing with other men OR women. Why is it so hard to understand? Anyway, I made my position clear and she said she would drop it. Of course now I feel like an asshole when I didn’t even do anything wrong and on top of that I will forever be wondering if she’s unhappy or just eventually cheats on me.

I wouldn’t wish this bullshit on my worst enemy. My once secure, happy marriage feels like it’s in jeopardy now. Hopefully I can learn to let it go and she really does drop it for good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again

Wow this blew up, thanks to those of you who offered support and solid advice. I had to revisit the conversation with my wife since it’s definitely not a topic to be left unresolved. She tried to ask about opening up the marriage to women only (she’s “bi” I guess) but again, I have no interest in sharing with other men OR women. Why is it so hard to understand? Anyway, I made my position clear and she said she would drop it. Of course now I feel like an asshole when I didn’t even do anything wrong and on top of that I will forever be wondering if she’s unhappy or just eventually cheats on me.

I wouldn’t wish this bullshit on my worst enemy. My once secure, happy marriage feels like it’s in jeopardy now. Hopefully I can learn to let it go and she really does drop it for good.

So you’re feeling a little insecure. Sounds like she’s been feeling unfulfilled for a long while and will continue to feel that way. It’s almost like you’re even now.