Let's have the abortion talk here. Right here. This thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I had my 1st trimester abortion, I looked. I asked to see what had been taken out of me. I saw what appeared to be a yolk sack, some blood, some tissue. The entire mass was about the size of an almond in the shell, maybe a bit smaller. I did not see anything whatsoever that resembled an embryo or fetus like the pictures, though I looked closely, and was expecting to maybe.

How old was the almond-sized mass?

Six or seven weeks, maybe. It was a while ago, and how far along I was is a bit fuzzy.

[Anonymous]

What about "partial birth" abortion? do you know how it's done????????

Almost all of these late term abortions are done for medical reasons - endangered maternal health or unviable fetus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What about "partial birth" abortion? do you know how it's done????????

Almost all of these late term abortions are done for medical reasons - endangered maternal health or unviable fetus.

All, really - Dr. Tiller, for example, required a referral from another doctor before he'd preform a late-term abortion. These aren't women who just changed their mind at the last minute because they didn't like the paint job in the nursery. As they like to assume we simply don't understand what an abortion entails, the other side doesn't seem to (want to) understand the real women who would give anything not to be seeking a late-term abortion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Anyone has the link to the study done on the movements of the fetus during the abortion? moving away from the needle, moving away from the vacuum cleaner???
What about "partial birth" abortion? do you know how it's done????????

Wow, do you mean vacuum "aspirator"? I can't really see anyone using a Hoover attachment in the procedure room, but maybe in your neck of the woods they are.

Yes, I know how a partial birth abortion is done. Do you know that you can opt to have the heart stopped prior to the procedure so there is no possibility of pain for the fetus? I can think of no reason to not use the KCl injection, whether it's a partial birth or an induced labor. Do you also understand the devastation the mother and father are going through after reviewing all their options and have no alternative. No one has the "right" to tell me I must deliver a baby who will die within hours of birth from fatal congenital birth defects. You know why? Once the baby is born, the doctors will do everything they can to keep it alive, no matter if it's anencephalic, is missing vital organs, intestines or bladder/ kidneys. Do you have ANY idea how painful THAT would be to watch your precious child suffering? What pro-life isn't considering about late term abortions is that there is ALWAYS a back story that usually involves tragedy and heartbreak. If I knew my child was going to suffer and die, whether term or induction, I would want the option to make things as painless as possible for him/her, as a MOTHER. I would choose a KCl injection and induction over late term suffering due to malformations in utero (starting at 28-30 weeks) and likely painful delivery for the baby, and then to be kept alive on life support while the doctors insisted on preserving his/her life due to the Hippocratic oath.

PP said it well; these women having late term abortions would give anything to not be facing this option, and it's not like they've just had a change of heart or the paint job in the nursery wasn't good enough.

[Anonymous]

these women having late term abortions would give anything to not be facing this option, and it's not like they've just had a change of heart or the paint job in the nursery wasn't good enough.

WORD. That's what the links I posted above make very, very clear. The anti-choice movement makes it seem as if there are hundreds of thousands of late-term abortions being performed willy-nilly in every clinic in America, just because the mothers don't like how their bodies look in pregnancy or because they broke up their boyfriends. These are almost never performed and when they are, they are almost exclusively due to hideous complications with the mother or the baby. The late Dr. Tiller was one of the very, very few doctors who was fulfilling the urgent needs of these women. I wonder what happens to the mothers who cannot afford a long drive and flight to Wichita and the large amount of money for the procedure, large in part because of the pressing need for expensive security precautions at his clinic?

There is a post on here recently from a mother who had an unviable fetus and had to have a late-term abortion. Because she is a federal employee subject to anti-choice politics interfering in the relationship between her and her doctor, it was not covered by insurance and her doctor had to send her to a stranger to perform the procedure. What would the government have her do, carry around a dead baby for three months, subjecting her to myriad physical and mental health problems? Go through labor or c-section with all their inherent risks, and end up in the maternity recovery ward surrounded by adorable newborns? What would you "pro-lifers" have her do?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of those basic rights is the right to make our own decisions as long as they do not infringe upon the rights and well-being of others. Before anyone says abortion is an infringement on the right of the fetus, the scientific fact is that fetuses grow within the wombs of grown women (at least in most cases) and the rights of that grown person over the governing of HER OWN BODY truly supercedes the rights of anyone else trying to impose their own beliefs on her..... Why is it that in America, of all places, there are still so many people that feel the burning need to tell other's what to do in regards to personal private decisions that have nothing to do with them in the first place?

I think you raise a valid question in your last sentence here, but I believe that you allude to the answer earlier in your post (first sentence in the quote above). The pro-life perspective is a belief that the woman's choice does indeed infringe upon the rights and well-being of another -- the unborn child/fetus. And those who are vocal in advocating that stance do so in the stead of those unborn who cannot advocate for themselves.

A fetus cannot argue for themselves because they are not yet a person. However, a grown woman is and you have no right to impose your beliefs on another grown person when IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. If you feel abortion is wrong, don't have one-that's your choice as an American. However, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to tell another adult what they can and cannot do with their own body.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

For one, in instances of severe preeclampsia / HELLP syndrome.

Instances of preeclampsia/HELLP syndrome are likely after 24 weeks though? Why not deliver a viable baby? Why is is necessary to first kill the baby (via potassium injection which is how it is done) and then deliver a dead baby (via induction or c/s)?
I have never understood the reasoning behind late term abortions to "save the mother's life".

24 weeks is not viable.

And the question is not whether you see the reasoning. The question is whether the doctor, the woman, and her partner see the reasoning-- and whether in those instances the government or an electorate made up of laypeople and strangers should be able to second-guess and endanger that woman's life or health.

Oh really?
http://immenseknowledge.blogspot.com/2007/09/worlds-tiniest-baby-born-at-24-weeks.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-564459/We-babies-24-week-abortion-limit--survived.html

http://preemie.info/cms/modules/news/article.php?storyid=202

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20060402/ai_n16206402/

and etc...you can find a huge number of these survival stories
Yes, 25 weeks (big 1 week jump there) is considered "viable", but obviously these amazing LIVING things are surviving earlier than that...

OMG
This is absurd! These babies have a one in a thousand chance of survival, require HUGE amounts of money to keep them alive against the odds, etc etc.
Most of these tiny little ones do in fact die. I really dont think they should be cited as the reason to justify calling 24 weeks viable. After all, they are "miracle" babies

[Anonymous]

What I dont get are these woman who have more than one abortion and feel no guilt whatsoever.

[Anonymous]

Why is it that in America, of all places, there are still so many people that feel the burning need to tell other's what to do in regards to personal private decisions that have nothing to do with them in the first place?

----

Well, I am pro-choice but I have to take issue with this (very common) statement.
If you really believe that abortion is murder then it makes sense that you would try to stop murderers. I mean, think about it. If you believe rape is wrong you probably "impose" your belief on rapists, right??

I'm just saying....

To me the hypocrisy in the pro-life movement is that they tend to:
1) support the death penalty
2) use the bible to justify a whole host of close-minded practices
3) dont support public health and social service programs that would provide welfare, education support, child care, health care and education for young women who have babies in unstable circumstances. Pro-lifers say they support the unborn. OK. But what about supporting the women and children who emerge from these scenarios? Nah, let's just dump em on the street,

[Anonymous]

Whether or not a woman feels guilty after having one or 100 abortions has nothing to do with the legalization of abortion-once again, we try and foist our beliefs on others with no regard for the GROWN ADULT men and women who have given their lives so that we can live in a democracy, not a dictatorship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Whether or not a woman feels guilty after having one or 100 abortions has nothing to do with the legalization of abortion-once again, we try and foist our beliefs on others with no regard for the GROWN ADULT men and women who have given their lives so that we can live in a democracy, not a dictatorship.

Uh..there are plenty of things that are legal that aren't neccessarily morally right. Death penalty for instance?

Does the law automatically make things morally right?? So, if prostitution is legal then it's okay for your husband to go and sleep with her? Why not? It's LEGAL?

I guess if the law says it's okay..it must be!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of those basic rights is the right to make our own decisions as long as they do not infringe upon the rights and well-being of others. Before anyone says abortion is an infringement on the right of the fetus, the scientific fact is that fetuses grow within the wombs of grown women (at least in most cases) and the rights of that grown person over the governing of HER OWN BODY truly supercedes the rights of anyone else trying to impose their own beliefs on her..... Why is it that in America, of all places, there are still so many people that feel the burning need to tell other's what to do in regards to personal private decisions that have nothing to do with them in the first place?

I think you raise a valid question in your last sentence here, but I believe that you allude to the answer earlier in your post (first sentence in the quote above). The pro-life perspective is a belief that the woman's choice does indeed infringe upon the rights and well-being of another -- the unborn child/fetus. And those who are vocal in advocating that stance do so in the stead of those unborn who cannot advocate for themselves.

A fetus cannot argue for themselves because they are not yet a person. However, a grown woman is and you have no right to impose your beliefs on another grown person when IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU. If you feel abortion is wrong, don't have one-that's your choice as an American. However, you have absolutely NO RIGHT to tell another adult what they can and cannot do with their own body.

And again, that's at the heart of the debate -- whether people view that fetus as a person that is therefore deserving of some rights or consideration. Clearly you do not feel that way. The earlier PP was asking why people feel the need, etc [see quote above]... and I think again the view of those who oppose abortion in some or all situations is that this society has countless laws in which we impose limitations upon some people in defense of others, and those that are pro-life believe this is one of those circumstances. As to the broader "no right to impose your beliefs", unfortunately that's just patently not the case in a society of laws and so by itself is not a prima facie argument. We have many many many laws that impose obligations or limitations on individuals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What I dont get are these woman who have more than one abortion and feel no guilt whatsoever.

To each her own. I don't get women who wear Ugg boots or carry those quilted flowery/paisley print bags.

I am 8 months pregnant and having now been through most of a wanted pregnancy cannot imagine deciding to have an abortion, although under certain circumstances (e.g., rape) I quite possibly would. Nevertheless, just because I don't know that I could do it doesn't mean I'd impose my own personal decision on *anyone*. I am staunchly pro-choice. We all have different experiences and different stories and we all have/should have the right to choose what medical procedures are done to our bodies.

[Anonymous]

In the interest of getting all the facts straight, in the situation I described in my earlier post quoted below, the mother was able to use her own doctor for the procedure. I apologize for conflating two different situations. Here is the thread: http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/43182.page

There is a post on here recently from a mother who had an unviable fetus and had to have a late-term abortion. Because she is a federal employee subject to anti-choice politics interfering in the relationship between her and her doctor, it was not covered by insurance and her doctor had to send her to a stranger to perform the procedure. What would the government have her do, carry around a dead baby for three months, subjecting her to myriad physical and mental health problems? Go through labor or c-section with all their inherent risks, and end up in the maternity recovery ward surrounded by adorable newborns? What would you "pro-lifers" have her do?

But, as to getting an answer to the question: just as I thought... crickets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I dont get are these woman who have more than one abortion and feel no guilt whatsoever.

To each her own. I don't get women who wear Ugg boots or carry those quilted flowery/paisley print bags.

I am 8 months pregnant and having now been through most of a wanted pregnancy cannot imagine deciding to have an abortion, although under certain circumstances (e.g., rape) I quite possibly would. Nevertheless, just because I don't know that I could do it doesn't mean I'd impose my own personal decision on *anyone*. I am staunchly pro-choice. We all have different experiences and different stories and we all have/should have the right to choose what medical procedures are done to our bodies.

Termination of human life is not a medical procedure. Be proud enough to call it what it is.