Move to fly over country for job?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:OP, sounds like you are talking about Milwaukee. I live in the upper Midwest and also grew up in NYC. The problem I have is how insular place lsike Milwaukee, Detroit, St. Louis, and Cleveland are. Very few people move in and out. Most of the people grew up, went to school, and married someone locally and have never lived anywhere else. Your spouse is going to go up against people who have friends and family in the area forever. If its a 2-5 year stint, fine, anything else, not great. Cheap housing isn't the only thing in life.

I'm the PP who lasted 3 years in one of the cities you mention above and that was EXACTLY my experience. It was hard to make friends because everyone grew up in neighboring suburbs and had known each other since elementary school. We were in a very desirable close-in suburb and there was also this sense of provincialism and self-satisfaction that they had "made it" to the desirable suburb. It played into the racism mentioned in my PP. They had grown up in a neighboring suburb with, like 25% minorities but had managed to "trade up" to the all white suburb and were super proud of themselves. My husband's company was the one who suggested the neighborhood, and I don't know what they were thinking.

Maybe it was just that no one liked you, not hard to believe since you looked down on all of them as "provincial" and "racist."

+1 People are good at recognizing a warm, genuine, friendly, intelligent, hard-working person who isn't bragging and/or looking down on them.

You may have missed the part where people made casually racist comments in front of me, not knowing that my kids are mixed race. I've never had that happen in DC. But these women thought they were in an "all white safe space" and said the most appalling things about "those people." I'm not guessing that they were racist. They were racist right in front of me, not knowing that they were talking about my family. There may be plenty of places in so-called flyover country where this isn't the case, but I'm talking about my own experiences trying to raise mixed-race kids in a place where people think Black people only live on the other side of the tracks.

That is inexcusable, of course, PP, but what you are doing is taking the opinions of a handful of people you met and attributing them to an entire community. If you cannot see the irony in that as you call an entire community racist, lazy and provincial based on the actions of some, then maybe you are not as smart and intellectual as you think you are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interviewing for a VP job at a company. Their HQ is based in -what DMVers would describe as flyover country. But housing is 70% cheaper like $200k buys you a fancy 5 bedroom house in a nice suburb.

My spouse would have to give up job for a while and do childcare. It would take a year to relicense in the new state. My salary would be equal to what we both make in DMV.

Let's say diversity is non existent in the city. We fall into the "diversity" category. Weather is cold.. Not a lot of cultural stuff; very conservative (we are liberals).

Worth considering? Or is quality of life more important.

I wonder if OP ever dreamed that his original post would turn into 7 pages of this crap....

You just contributed part of a page.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We did it and regretted it. I missed being able to walk places, and being surrounded by people who care about the things I care about. As a white person with kids of color, I was also STUNNED by the casual racism that folks threw around in what they perceived as all-white safe spaces. I lasted three years before I insisted we leave again.

That's why it's important for OP to post more info. The location does make a difference. Cleveland is not the same as Ann Arbor.

I've lived in both. We all know about Ann Arbor. But Cleveland is, actually, a progressive, diverse city with a great arts scene, museums, parks, medical facilities, and restaurants. The weather is not for everyone. The stupidity and provincialism on this board never cease to amaze.

Im from Cleveland and I took that comment to mean that Ann Arbor was much less diverse than Cleveland but you may be right, pp.

Who knows, but I took it to be yet another reference to the glory of Ann Arbor that one finds on this board. They are both cool.

Go Blue! Ann Arbor is glorious!

Gets dull after a semester.

NP. I've been living here for a year and a half (posting from outside of a restaurant on S Main), and it hasn't gotten dull yet! We have to move this summer--the life of an academic family--and we're going to miss it a lot.

Hope you and/or yours get(s) tenure somewhere nice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:That's nice. OP said Green Bay.

Yes, but some other idiot PP was dissing Milwaukee. I have to stand up for my hometown!

Yep, stand up for your hometown! ~former Clevelander here

Former Detroiter here - I'm with you both! I'm sick of the Midwest stereotypes.

What do you think of the Detroit area and its prospects?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's nice. OP said Green Bay.

Yes, but some other idiot PP was dissing Milwaukee. I have to stand up for my hometown!

Yep, stand up for your hometown! ~former Clevelander here

Former Detroiter here - I'm with you both! I'm sick of the Midwest stereotypes.

What do you think of the Detroit area and its prospects?

That, dear poster, would require a whole separate thread. While it is nice to see outsiders take an interest in the city, it is a bit insulting when people make like nothing good came from or happened in Detroit before the outsiders came.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's nice. OP said Green Bay.

Yes, but some other idiot PP was dissing Milwaukee. I have to stand up for my hometown!

Yep, stand up for your hometown! ~former Clevelander here

Former Detroiter here - I'm with you both! I'm sick of the Midwest stereotypes.

What do you think of the Detroit area and its prospects?

I'm the PP. It depends on what field you're in. The job market is still not very good there. But it is kind of a cultural mecca. It's very diverse and people are generally accepting. There are lots of different cultural opportunities, varieties of food, music, museums, theater. It's a good place to be if you can find a good job. The COL is also low, which makes it nice. I live in DC because I'm a legislative attorney and can't find a job there (also DH is from here and wouldn't want to move).

[Anonymous]

FWIW, I don't have a particular dog in the fight. Grew up in NYC but father is from Cleveland so have always gone out there and know the area reasonably well. Have worked in Los Angeles, NYC, Detroit. and Atlanta. Also spent time in Toledo, OH.

I agree that the places like Detroit and Cleveland have nice places and some progressive people. Heck, even Flint, MI has nice suburbs, some upscale. But there is no question that flyover country can be a massive culture shock. My beloved cousins in Cleveland are great people, but there world is much more limited than the typical person in LA or DC. Detroit? Met some nice folks (disclaimer, went to U of M as a grad student and do not consider Ann Arbor part of Detroit area) but 96% of the people I met fit the description of grew up/married someone from/never traveled anywhere. Again, perfectly nice but outside of sports not much to talk about.

Other side of the coin, yes people in coast cities can be pretentious asses but there is definitely a bigger interest in exploring life and meeting new people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's nice. OP said Green Bay.

Yes, but some other idiot PP was dissing Milwaukee. I have to stand up for my hometown!

Yep, stand up for your hometown! ~former Clevelander here

Former Detroiter here - I'm with you both! I'm sick of the Midwest stereotypes.

What do you think of the Detroit area and its prospects?

I'm the PP. It depends on what field you're in. The job market is still not very good there. But it is kind of a cultural mecca. It's very diverse and people are generally accepting. There are lots of different cultural opportunities, varieties of food, music, museums, theater. It's a good place to be if you can find a good job. The COL is also low, which makes it nice. I live in DC because I'm a legislative attorney and can't find a job there (also DH is from here and wouldn't want to move).

Now that Chrysler is going to stop making cars and focus only on trucks and SUVs, the job market is going to get even worse. Next auto industry downturn, Chrysler gone and permanent 15% unemployment area. Also, a lot of people leave every Monday to work in another city so professional employment is not as good as job reports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:FWIW, I don't have a particular dog in the fight. Grew up in NYC but father is from Cleveland so have always gone out there and know the area reasonably well. Have worked in Los Angeles, NYC, Detroit. and Atlanta. Also spent time in Toledo, OH.

I agree that the places like Detroit and Cleveland have nice places and some progressive people. Heck, even Flint, MI has nice suburbs, some upscale. But there is no question that flyover country can be a massive culture shock. My beloved cousins in Cleveland are great people, but there world is much more limited than the typical person in LA or DC. Detroit? Met some nice folks (disclaimer, went to U of M as a grad student and do not consider Ann Arbor part of Detroit area) but 96% of the people I met fit the description of grew up/married someone from/never traveled anywhere. Again, perfectly nice but outside of sports not much to talk about.

Other side of the coin, yes people in coast cities can be pretentious asses but there is definitely a bigger interest in exploring life and meeting new people.

Really? People in DC are more interested "in exploring life and meeting new people?" Excuse me while I crack up laughing. Many people here are very closed up and standoffish and they walk around like a bunch of robots--college, work, jobs, house, college, college, college, work, work, work, money, money, work out, college, work. People are much more friendly in the Midwest and they tend to be involved in a lot of different activities. They seem to enjoy life a lot more than people here, but that is my observation after living for long periods of time in both places, unlike this PP, who is working off of anecdotes from a few cousins. PP assumes that because people here read "The Economist" they are "interested in exploring life."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interviewing for a VP job at a company. Their HQ is based in -what DMVers would describe as flyover country. But housing is 70% cheaper like $200k buys you a fancy 5 bedroom house in a nice suburb.

My spouse would have to give up job for a while and do childcare. It would take a year to relicense in the new state. My salary would be equal to what we both make in DMV.

Let's say diversity is non existent in the city. We fall into the "diversity" category. Weather is cold.. Not a lot of cultural stuff; very conservative (we are liberals).

Worth considering? Or is quality of life more important.

(1) So it sounds like you don't want to live near white people. You should consider if you are racist because you only want to live with people of your own race.
(2) It sounds like you are closed minded because you don't want to live around people that have a different opinion that you.

You sound closed minded and have pre-judged a people and place without really knowing about it. Congratulations! You are what you claim to not want to be around!

You idiot, where does OP say that he doesn't want to live near white people or conservatives?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, sounds like you are talking about Milwaukee. I live in the upper Midwest and also grew up in NYC. The problem I have is how insular place lsike Milwaukee, Detroit, St. Louis, and Cleveland are. Very few people move in and out. Most of the people grew up, went to school, and married someone locally and have never lived anywhere else. Your spouse is going to go up against people who have friends and family in the area forever. If its a 2-5 year stint, fine, anything else, not great. Cheap housing isn't the only thing in life.

I'm the PP who lasted 3 years in one of the cities you mention above and that was EXACTLY my experience. It was hard to make friends because everyone grew up in neighboring suburbs and had known each other since elementary school. We were in a very desirable close-in suburb and there was also this sense of provincialism and self-satisfaction that they had "made it" to the desirable suburb. It played into the racism mentioned in my PP. They had grown up in a neighboring suburb with, like 25% minorities but had managed to "trade up" to the all white suburb and were super proud of themselves. My husband's company was the one who suggested the neighborhood, and I don't know what they were thinking.

Maybe it was just that no one liked you, not hard to believe since you looked down on all of them as "provincial" and "racist."

+1 People are good at recognizing a warm, genuine, friendly, intelligent, hard-working person who isn't bragging and/or looking down on them.

You may have missed the part where people made casually racist comments in front of me, not knowing that my kids are mixed race. I've never had that happen in DC. But these women thought they were in an "all white safe space" and said the most appalling things about "those people." I'm not guessing that they were racist. They were racist right in front of me, not knowing that they were talking about my family. There may be plenty of places in so-called flyover country where this isn't the case, but I'm talking about my own experiences trying to raise mixed-race kids in a place where people think Black people only live on the other side of the tracks.

That is inexcusable, of course, PP, but what you are doing is taking the opinions of a handful of people you met and attributing them to an entire community. If you cannot see the irony in that as you call an entire community racist, lazy and provincial based on the actions of some, then maybe you are not as smart and intellectual as you think you are.

What we're talking about here is "Would you move someplace and raise your family there." So, yes, I'm going to be concerned about raising my family someplace where people are overtly racist the moment they think they are alone. Yes, I could have tried out every neighborhood in this city until I found one that wasn't fatally poisoned by racism, but that's hard in a place where highly racialized politics are the legacy of several generations of white flight.

I wanted it to work. I grew up in the Midwest (in a much smaller city in another state) and the idea of moving back to the Midwest, being closer to family, and enjoying the significantly lower COL that the city offered was very compelling. But I was faced with a difficult choice. Live in the city itself with other "diverse" families and commit to private school forever and ever (not to mention no public transportation and sporadic public services), or live in the suburbs and watch my kids be profiled by people whose parents left the city in the 60s and only returned for baseball games in the last 50 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, sounds like you are talking about Milwaukee. I live in the upper Midwest and also grew up in NYC. The problem I have is how insular place lsike Milwaukee, Detroit, St. Louis, and Cleveland are. Very few people move in and out. Most of the people grew up, went to school, and married someone locally and have never lived anywhere else. Your spouse is going to go up against people who have friends and family in the area forever. If its a 2-5 year stint, fine, anything else, not great. Cheap housing isn't the only thing in life.

I'm the PP who lasted 3 years in one of the cities you mention above and that was EXACTLY my experience. It was hard to make friends because everyone grew up in neighboring suburbs and had known each other since elementary school. We were in a very desirable close-in suburb and there was also this sense of provincialism and self-satisfaction that they had "made it" to the desirable suburb. It played into the racism mentioned in my PP. They had grown up in a neighboring suburb with, like 25% minorities but had managed to "trade up" to the all white suburb and were super proud of themselves. My husband's company was the one who suggested the neighborhood, and I don't know what they were thinking.

Maybe it was just that no one liked you, not hard to believe since you looked down on all of them as "provincial" and "racist."

+1 People are good at recognizing a warm, genuine, friendly, intelligent, hard-working person who isn't bragging and/or looking down on them.

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, sounds like you are talking about Milwaukee. I live in the upper Midwest and also grew up in NYC. The problem I have is how insular place lsike Milwaukee, Detroit, St. Louis, and Cleveland are. Very few people move in and out. Most of the people grew up, went to school, and married someone locally and have never lived anywhere else. Your spouse is going to go up against people who have friends and family in the area forever. If its a 2-5 year stint, fine, anything else, not great. Cheap housing isn't the only thing in life.

I'm the PP who lasted 3 years in one of the cities you mention above and that was EXACTLY my experience. It was hard to make friends because everyone grew up in neighboring suburbs and had known each other since elementary school. We were in a very desirable close-in suburb and there was also this sense of provincialism and self-satisfaction that they had "made it" to the desirable suburb. It played into the racism mentioned in my PP. They had grown up in a neighboring suburb with, like 25% minorities but had managed to "trade up" to the all white suburb and were super proud of themselves. My husband's company was the one who suggested the neighborhood, and I don't know what they were thinking.

Maybe it was just that no one liked you, not hard to believe since you looked down on all of them as "provincial" and "racist."

+1 People are good at recognizing a warm, genuine, friendly, intelligent, hard-working person who isn't bragging and/or looking down on them.

You may have missed the part where people made casually racist comments in front of me, not knowing that my kids are mixed race. I've never had that happen in DC. But these women thought they were in an "all white safe space" and said the most appalling things about "those people." I'm not guessing that they were racist. They were racist right in front of me, not knowing that they were talking about my family. There may be plenty of places in so-called flyover country where this isn't the case, but I'm talking about my own experiences trying to raise mixed-race kids in a place where people think Black people only live on the other side of the tracks.

That is inexcusable, of course, PP, but what you are doing is taking the opinions of a handful of people you met and attributing them to an entire community. If you cannot see the irony in that as you call an entire community racist, lazy and provincial based on the actions of some, then maybe you are not as smart and intellectual as you think you are.

What we're talking about here is "Would you move someplace and raise your family there." So, yes, I'm going to be concerned about raising my family someplace where people are overtly racist the moment they think they are alone. Yes, I could have tried out every neighborhood in this city until I found one that wasn't fatally poisoned by racism, but that's hard in a place where highly racialized politics are the legacy of several generations of white flight.

I wanted it to work. I grew up in the Midwest (in a much smaller city in another state) and the idea of moving back to the Midwest, being closer to family, and enjoying the significantly lower COL that the city offered was very compelling. But I was faced with a difficult choice. Live in the city itself with other "diverse" families and commit to private school forever and ever (not to mention no public transportation and sporadic public services), or live in the suburbs and watch my kids be profiled by people whose parents left the city in the 60s and only returned for baseball games in the last 50 years.

So, live in the city. You do realize that, unlike in DC, Catholic and other private schools cost about 5K or under per year in those places. It is worth it to not have to live in the suburbs, which are white-bread and boring (I know because I grew up in one of them). The city neighborhoods, by contrast, have beautiful old homes, a more diverse crowd of interesting people and they are walkable to shops, restaurants, and lakes. Some of the Midwestern cities are real hidden gems!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's nice. OP said Green Bay.

Yes, but some other idiot PP was dissing Milwaukee. I have to stand up for my hometown!

Yep, stand up for your hometown! ~former Clevelander here

Former Detroiter here - I'm with you both! I'm sick of the Midwest stereotypes.

What do you think of the Detroit area and its prospects?

I'm the PP. It depends on what field you're in. The job market is still not very good there. But it is kind of a cultural mecca. It's very diverse and people are generally accepting. There are lots of different cultural opportunities, varieties of food, music, museums, theater. It's a good place to be if you can find a good job. The COL is also low, which makes it nice. I live in DC because I'm a legislative attorney and can't find a job there (also DH is from here and wouldn't want to move).

Now that Chrysler is going to stop making cars and focus only on trucks and SUVs, the job market is going to get even worse. Next auto industry downturn, Chrysler gone and permanent 15% unemployment area. Also, a lot of people leave every Monday to work in another city so professional employment is not as good as job reports.

Detroit has a lot of challenges, and I say that as someone who lived there, goes back often, and actually cares about the city. First off, you have all the stuff that everyone knows - the city's footprint is too big for its current population, there are too many neighborhoods with only a handful of houses standing, and many of the city's citizens are undereducated, underserved, and angry.

Then there's what people think they know - that there are young people flocking to the city, a great restaurant and arts scene, and a handful of neighborhoods that are being "revitalized." The problem is that those neighborhoods are pretty self-contained and it's not at all clear to me that the wealth coming into the city is being shared with its poorest residents in any meaningful way. It's also not clear that those people are going to stay. Detroit has basically zero public transportation options, and even the Big. New. Thing is basically a mile of light rail running up Woodward. The schools are a disaster, so if you have kids and want to stay in the city, you have a handful of choices (Waldorf, Friends, parochial). I hate charter schools, but Detroit doesn't even have the kids of good charter options that someplace like DC has, so you really are on the hook for private if you live in the city.

But let's say you follow everyone else to the suburbs. The COL isn't so low out there, and you are completely reliant on your car unless you live in downtown Royal Oak, Ferndale, Canton, Birmingham, or someplace similar. Those are good options, but, again, not inexpensive.

Finally, the jobs situation. It is hard to understand outside the area how utterly dependent everyone is on the auto industry. Not just the folks who work for Ford or a parts supplier, but everyone. Ad agencies, law firms, retail. That's why the slump hit the city so hard and I don't know that it can come back, particularly with the aforementioned shift in focus on the part of US automakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's nice. OP said Green Bay.

Yes, but some other idiot PP was dissing Milwaukee. I have to stand up for my hometown!

Yep, stand up for your hometown! ~former Clevelander here

Former Detroiter here - I'm with you both! I'm sick of the Midwest stereotypes.

What do you think of the Detroit area and its prospects?

I'm the PP. It depends on what field you're in. The job market is still not very good there. But it is kind of a cultural mecca. It's very diverse and people are generally accepting. There are lots of different cultural opportunities, varieties of food, music, museums, theater. It's a good place to be if you can find a good job. The COL is also low, which makes it nice. I live in DC because I'm a legislative attorney and can't find a job there (also DH is from here and wouldn't want to move).

Now that Chrysler is going to stop making cars and focus only on trucks and SUVs, the job market is going to get even worse. Next auto industry downturn, Chrysler gone and permanent 15% unemployment area. Also, a lot of people leave every Monday to work in another city so professional employment is not as good as job reports.

Detroit has a lot of challenges, and I say that as someone who lived there, goes back often, and actually cares about the city. First off, you have all the stuff that everyone knows - the city's footprint is too big for its current population, there are too many neighborhoods with only a handful of houses standing, and many of the city's citizens are undereducated, underserved, and angry.

Then there's what people think they know - that there are young people flocking to the city, a great restaurant and arts scene, and a handful of neighborhoods that are being "revitalized." The problem is that those neighborhoods are pretty self-contained and it's not at all clear to me that the wealth coming into the city is being shared with its poorest residents in any meaningful way. It's also not clear that those people are going to stay. Detroit has basically zero public transportation options, and even the Big. New. Thing is basically a mile of light rail running up Woodward. The schools are a disaster, so if you have kids and want to stay in the city, you have a handful of choices (Waldorf, Friends, parochial). I hate charter schools, but Detroit doesn't even have the kids of good charter options that someplace like DC has, so you really are on the hook for private if you live in the city.

But let's say you follow everyone else to the suburbs. The COL isn't so low out there, and you are completely reliant on your car unless you live in downtown Royal Oak, Ferndale, Canton, Birmingham, or someplace similar. Those are good options, but, again, not inexpensive.

Finally, the jobs situation. It is hard to understand outside the area how utterly dependent everyone is on the auto industry. Not just the folks who work for Ford or a parts supplier, but everyone. Ad agencies, law firms, retail. That's why the slump hit the city so hard and I don't know that it can come back, particularly with the aforementioned shift in focus on the part of US automakers.

Agreed. It will be interesting to see what happens up north in the next 20 years. Like Detroit it seems like a lot more money and people coming in, who may not stay. It is sad because it has become a place Michiganders can afford to enjoy as much, perhaps because the money doesn't stay in the state.