Predicting spousal support

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This also leads to a bigger question that I actually was debating with my DH earlier today. I don't think a DH leaves his family and wife who wants the marriage to remain intact unless he has something or someone waiting in the wings. This is where the fidelity issue comes in or the fact that something was going on that the family wasn't aware of which could help with leverage in any settlement.

The only non-infidelity story I’ve hear is my one.

Mine left after he decided he wanted to retire at 55 without telling me. Then I got cc’ed on meeting notes from a conversation he had with our joint finanical advisor who said our retirement savings were off track and he would have to do x, y and z to sustain us through retirement if he wanted to be done at 55.

Instead, exDH apparently spent a week doing the math, realized that he could retire at 55 if he cut me loose after a major raise he was anticipating, and filed a few weeks before that raise would hit. Not sure how other jurisdictions do it but in mine, income after filing date is the earners’ and no longer marital.

Highly effective retirement savings strategy, btw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This also leads to a bigger question that I actually was debating with my DH earlier today. I don't think a DH leaves his family and wife who wants the marriage to remain intact unless he has something or someone waiting in the wings. This is where the fidelity issue comes in or the fact that something was going on that the family wasn't aware of which could help with leverage in any settlement.

The only non-infidelity story I’ve hear is my one.

Mine left after he decided he wanted to retire at 55 without telling me. Then I got cc’ed on meeting notes from a conversation he had with our joint finanical advisor who said our retirement savings were off track and he would have to do x, y and z to sustain us through retirement if he wanted to be done at 55.

Instead, exDH apparently spent a week doing the math, realized that he could retire at 55 if he cut me loose after a major raise he was anticipating, and filed a few weeks before that raise would hit. Not sure how other jurisdictions do it but in mine, income after filing date is the earners’ and no longer marital.

Highly effective retirement savings strategy, btw.

What a complete ass. I’m sorry

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know it's scary. I'm sorry. Consult a few well-respected lawyers. They'll know better than us.

I'm in VA and I've shared this before on here. Keep in mind my ex offered this. He makes close to 7 figures and has a lot clients who have divorced. He said that anything over 16 or 17 years usually gets lifetime alimony so he just offered it -- we were married just shy of 20 years when we separated.

$10k/month lifetime alimony
$2.5k/month child support for two kids, drops to $1.8k for one
$4k month paying off my mortgage

Plus my half of the assets, some of which are rental properties that will some day make good money (but right now all the equity is sucked out by loans my ex took out -- he was always borrowing from Peter to pay Paul)

You've been married 20 years and he makes 10x as much as you do. I really don't believe a judge is going to tell you to suck it up. You are the poster child for spousal support. Fight for the support you have earned by investing in this marriage. Don't listen to the noise that is designed to make you keep sweet and obey. You were involved in a business arrangement -- marriage -- and there is a standard way to dissolve this that honors your non-monetary contributions.

OP here. Thank you for sharing this.

I am not sure on this but I think ALL alimony is only if the receiving ex-spouse does not get married again.

Yes, or cohabitate. Though my ex agreed to waive this when I was like, "So you're paying me $10k/month for life and then clearly I just have my imaginary future boyfriend keep a cheap apartment and pretend he lives there? And then you're, what, counting how many nights I spend with said imaginary boyfriend? Like my sex and love life is the business of you and the state? And then we have to have a hearing to determine when it progresses from casual dating to more committed? I was a good and faithful wife and I would have remained so, but that's not what you wanted, and so therefore I have to be a sad nun for the rest of my life? How is this the spirit of the law?"

But obviously my situation is not the norm in a lot of ways. My lawyer was flabbergasted when he agreed. But he understood that I always brought my best self to the marriage, and he did not, and he at least is a good enough person to care about what is fair and right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

How does Dad get compensated for the time and relationship he gave up with his children? I think of my own DH who did give up career opportunities when our kids were young to coach their sports teams by limiting travel and work dinners. He had to manage his schedule to do take on his share of pick ups/drop offs/ doc appts. All of this has made him an equal parent to me and the kids turn to both of us when they need stuff as college kids. I think he would have lost a lot if he didn’t put in the work to build this relationship with them (which didn’t actually come naturally to him). I am not unsympathetic to the argument that women who stayed home gave up opportunities for the family and should be acknowledged in a divorce. But how do you calculate the effect on the other spouse?

If you were sharing parenting duties like that, you probably wouldn’t be awarded alimony in a divorce. Alimony is designed to compensate spouses who gave up careers to do unpaid labor at home.

[Anonymous]

Get a job OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This also leads to a bigger question that I actually was debating with my DH earlier today. I don't think a DH leaves his family and wife who wants the marriage to remain intact unless he has something or someone waiting in the wings. This is where the fidelity issue comes in or the fact that something was going on that the family wasn't aware of which could help with leverage in any settlement.

The only non-infidelity story I’ve hear is my one.

Mine left after he decided he wanted to retire at 55 without telling me. Then I got cc’ed on meeting notes from a conversation he had with our joint finanical advisor who said our retirement savings were off track and he would have to do x, y and z to sustain us through retirement if he wanted to be done at 55.

Instead, exDH apparently spent a week doing the math, realized that he could retire at 55 if he cut me loose after a major raise he was anticipating, and filed a few weeks before that raise would hit. Not sure how other jurisdictions do it but in mine, income after filing date is the earners’ and no longer marital.

Highly effective retirement savings strategy, btw.

Wow, no one pointed a gun at him and said "your money or your wife," but he decided to play that out anyway. I'm sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know it's scary. I'm sorry. Consult a few well-respected lawyers. They'll know better than us.

I'm in VA and I've shared this before on here. Keep in mind my ex offered this. He makes close to 7 figures and has a lot clients who have divorced. He said that anything over 16 or 17 years usually gets lifetime alimony so he just offered it -- we were married just shy of 20 years when we separated.

$10k/month lifetime alimony
$2.5k/month child support for two kids, drops to $1.8k for one
$4k month paying off my mortgage

Plus my half of the assets, some of which are rental properties that will some day make good money (but right now all the equity is sucked out by loans my ex took out -- he was always borrowing from Peter to pay Paul)

You've been married 20 years and he makes 10x as much as you do. I really don't believe a judge is going to tell you to suck it up. You are the poster child for spousal support. Fight for the support you have earned by investing in this marriage. Don't listen to the noise that is designed to make you keep sweet and obey. You were involved in a business arrangement -- marriage -- and there is a standard way to dissolve this that honors your non-monetary contributions.

I think it’s disgusting that a minor child, unable to work and with whom he shares blood, is entitled to only a quarter of the entitlement of a grown adult who could be working but chooses not to. I’m embarrassed for these women.

He presumably also has partial custody of the children, and the child support is for maintaining their standard of living the remaining time. The mortgage payment is also so that they have a place to live with their mother.

Oh yeah, he has 43% custody. And I have a chronic illness that was made worse by having kids, so while I could work if I had to, he understands that it would be difficult for me.

And no, it's not like I pay for things for the kids out of the child support alone while I splurge on myself, lol.

My laptop and phone are 5 years old. My car is 9 years old and paid off (it was $30k new). I am not a flashy or spendy person, except that I take my kids on nice vacations. Mainly I'm trying to save for a rainy day, because my alimony will not increase with inflation and our savings were not what they should have been given his salary -- he always spends everything he earns, or invests in new pet hobby businesses with his friends. Also he has a problem with alcohol and that's a progressive disease.

On top of paying off my mortgage, he kept our vacation home and bought himself an expensive home. They're worth about $1.2 million each.

I don't begrudge anyone thinking my situation is gross. I think of all the billions of people who have ever lived, and I realize how astronomically lucky I am, especially as a woman, that I have so much freedom and creature comfort and (for now) security.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know it's scary. I'm sorry. Consult a few well-respected lawyers. They'll know better than us.

I'm in VA and I've shared this before on here. Keep in mind my ex offered this. He makes close to 7 figures and has a lot clients who have divorced. He said that anything over 16 or 17 years usually gets lifetime alimony so he just offered it -- we were married just shy of 20 years when we separated.

$10k/month lifetime alimony
$2.5k/month child support for two kids, drops to $1.8k for one
$4k month paying off my mortgage

Plus my half of the assets, some of which are rental properties that will some day make good money (but right now all the equity is sucked out by loans my ex took out -- he was always borrowing from Peter to pay Paul)

You've been married 20 years and he makes 10x as much as you do. I really don't believe a judge is going to tell you to suck it up. You are the poster child for spousal support. Fight for the support you have earned by investing in this marriage. Don't listen to the noise that is designed to make you keep sweet and obey. You were involved in a business arrangement -- marriage -- and there is a standard way to dissolve this that honors your non-monetary contributions.

I think it’s disgusting that a minor child, unable to work and with whom he shares blood, is entitled to only a quarter of the entitlement of a grown adult who could be working but chooses not to. I’m embarrassed for these women.

He presumably also has partial custody of the children, and the child support is for maintaining their standard of living the remaining time. The mortgage payment is also so that they have a place to live with their mother.

Oh yeah, he has 43% custody. And I have a chronic illness that was made worse by having kids, so while I could work if I had to, he understands that it would be difficult for me.

And no, it's not like I pay for things for the kids out of the child support alone while I splurge on myself, lol.

My laptop and phone are 5 years old. My car is 9 years old and paid off (it was $30k new). I am not a flashy or spendy person, except that I take my kids on nice vacations. Mainly I'm trying to save for a rainy day, because my alimony will not increase with inflation and our savings were not what they should have been given his salary -- he always spends everything he earns, or invests in new pet hobby businesses with his friends. Also he has a problem with alcohol and that's a progressive disease.

On top of paying off my mortgage, he kept our vacation home and bought himself an expensive home. They're worth about $1.2 million each.

I don't begrudge anyone thinking my situation is gross. I think of all the billions of people who have ever lived, and I realize how astronomically lucky I am, especially as a woman, that I have so much freedom and creature comfort and (for now) security.

Some might disagree but I’m happy for you. You deserve it.

[Anonymous]

Women should get whatever they can. Don't listen to these idiots that say otherwise. There's no way any of these men could've had the lives and careers they had without someone doing the current work behind the scenes. That's why courts recognize that. Anyone who thinks they got to where they were on their own without a huge support system is delusional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Women should get whatever they can. Don't listen to these idiots that say otherwise. There's no way any of these men could've had the lives and careers they had without someone doing the current work behind the scenes. That's why courts recognize that. Anyone who thinks they got to where they were on their own without a huge support system is delusional.

I think the men would have achieved the same but wouldn’t have adult kids and generational transfer. The whole point of marriage is to find a supporting partner who will bear and grow the next generation

Of the career man takes on this responsibility to have a family and doesn’t want sacrifice his career then he needs to compensate his partner who did and ensure that kids receive at least 50% of marital assets from either parent. Which is why divorce laws exist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

How does Dad get compensated for the time and relationship he gave up with his children? I think of my own DH who did give up career opportunities when our kids were young to coach their sports teams by limiting travel and work dinners. He had to manage his schedule to do take on his share of pick ups/drop offs/ doc appts. All of this has made him an equal parent to me and the kids turn to both of us when they need stuff as college kids. I think he would have lost a lot if he didn’t put in the work to build this relationship with them (which didn’t actually come naturally to him). I am not unsympathetic to the argument that women who stayed home gave up opportunities for the family and should be acknowledged in a divorce. But how do you calculate the effect on the other spouse?

I’ve got a fun answer to this one. Another case where jurisdiction matters so it may be different elsewhere. Note that I am still in deep litigation over it and I pray for a different outcome than what I’m facing. Depending on states and judicial discretion a judge will happily award full or majority custody to one of these dads to allow them to “repair their bond” or “build their relationship” with the kids they had no desire to be around for a decade or more. It doesn’t matter if that dad isn’t home to be with the kids; a third party caregiver is allowed because “different parenting styles.”

I’m not in a state where kids who are 12, 13 or 14 have a say in things and so a parent can force them to adhere to whatever parenting plan they get approved until the day that kid is 18.

So yeah, a SAHM can literally be left with no career and with a very tiny sliver of custody of her children.

If you can’t be a SMBC a post-nup is probably a good idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Indefinite alimony is absurd. Most SAHMs are completely useless to begin with. Divorced women should just re-enter the workforce.

So, you expect a woman with n her 50-60s to reenter at the same salary after years of not working?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

How does Dad get compensated for the time and relationship he gave up with his children? I think of my own DH who did give up career opportunities when our kids were young to coach their sports teams by limiting travel and work dinners. He had to manage his schedule to do take on his share of pick ups/drop offs/ doc appts. All of this has made him an equal parent to me and the kids turn to both of us when they need stuff as college kids. I think he would have lost a lot if he didn’t put in the work to build this relationship with them (which didn’t actually come naturally to him). I am not unsympathetic to the argument that women who stayed home gave up opportunities for the family and should be acknowledged in a divorce. But how do you calculate the effect on the other spouse?

Why do you assume they aren’t? Working has nothing to do with that as it depends on the job and person. If they choose not to, that was their choice.

[Anonymous]

Aim as high as possible.

We mediated and did not go to court.

In Virginia, 20+ year marriage, divorced early 50's, got half of marital assets including the house, child support, and spousal support into my late 60s. I had a successful career but had been out of the workforce for many years raising kids. I am now back to work but it's by choice, not necessity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Indefinite alimony is absurd. Most SAHMs are completely useless to begin with. Divorced women should just re-enter the workforce.

So, you expect a woman with n her 50-60s to reenter at the same salary after years of not working?

Indefinite alimony has pretty much gone away. Most times this caps out at 10 years and the woman is expected to work a job or jobs.

In the 1950s if a woman got divorced, then she would have gotten indefinite alimony. Women’s lib put an end to the indefinite alimony, and women are expected to be into workplace.