Predicting spousal support

[Anonymous]

OP, you need to ask your lawyer, the odds of getting alimony.

Consider retraining into the medical field.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

How does Dad get compensated for the time and relationship he gave up with his children? I think of my own DH who did give up career opportunities when our kids were young to coach their sports teams by limiting travel and work dinners. He had to manage his schedule to do take on his share of pick ups/drop offs/ doc appts. All of this has made him an equal parent to me and the kids turn to both of us when they need stuff as college kids. I think he would have lost a lot if he didn’t put in the work to build this relationship with them (which didn’t actually come naturally to him). I am not unsympathetic to the argument that women who stayed home gave up opportunities for the family and should be acknowledged in a divorce. But how do you calculate the effect on the other spouse?

I’ve got a fun answer to this one. Another case where jurisdiction matters so it may be different elsewhere. Note that I am still in deep litigation over it and I pray for a different outcome than what I’m facing. Depending on states and judicial discretion a judge will happily award full or majority custody to one of these dads to allow them to “repair their bond” or “build their relationship” with the kids they had no desire to be around for a decade or more. It doesn’t matter if that dad isn’t home to be with the kids; a third party caregiver is allowed because “different parenting styles.”

I’m not in a state where kids who are 12, 13 or 14 have a say in things and so a parent can force them to adhere to whatever parenting plan they get approved until the day that kid is 18.

So yeah, a SAHM can literally be left with no career and with a very tiny sliver of custody of her children.

If you can’t be a SMBC a post-nup is probably a good idea.

That’s awful. Though if it makes you feel better, most courts will not force a custody arrangement for teenagers beginning at about age 14. If the kid refuses, the kid refuses. They’re not going to involve police to drag the kid to other parent’s home.

[Anonymous]

My brothers wife is getting indefinite alimony although that's in California and they were married 15+ years. She was the one that cheated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, OP implied that DH didn't take steps to keep himself home so that could imply DH didn't want his wife working as much or maybe set her up to not work as much. OP, if DH set you up to be the default parent taking care of all of these things while he was off doing his thing you need to bring that up in the divorce. that can get you more money

OP here. Yes - all true.

And there was cheating.

Men don’t leave without a place to land.

Cheating is a criminal offense in VA so that alone should give you more alimony, or at least ensure that you get it indefinitely.

But get a PI so you have evidence of it. DH won't admit to it and can invoke his fifth amendment protection since it is a criminal offense in VA.

Understanding is that you virtually have to have them in a very compromising position and photographed in order to have enough evidence to prove it and on top of that I think that in July, there are some laws that will change around this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

How does Dad get compensated for the time and relationship he gave up with his children? I think of my own DH who did give up career opportunities when our kids were young to coach their sports teams by limiting travel and work dinners. He had to manage his schedule to do take on his share of pick ups/drop offs/ doc appts. All of this has made him an equal parent to me and the kids turn to both of us when they need stuff as college kids. I think he would have lost a lot if he didn’t put in the work to build this relationship with them (which didn’t actually come naturally to him). I am not unsympathetic to the argument that women who stayed home gave up opportunities for the family and should be acknowledged in a divorce. But how do you calculate the effect on the other spouse?

I’ve got a fun answer to this one. Another case where jurisdiction matters so it may be different elsewhere. Note that I am still in deep litigation over it and I pray for a different outcome than what I’m facing. Depending on states and judicial discretion a judge will happily award full or majority custody to one of these dads to allow them to “repair their bond” or “build their relationship” with the kids they had no desire to be around for a decade or more. It doesn’t matter if that dad isn’t home to be with the kids; a third party caregiver is allowed because “different parenting styles.”

I’m not in a state where kids who are 12, 13 or 14 have a say in things and so a parent can force them to adhere to whatever parenting plan they get approved until the day that kid is 18.

So yeah, a SAHM can literally be left with no career and with a very tiny sliver of custody of her children.

If you can’t be a SMBC a post-nup is probably a good idea.

Many dads are heavily involved but custody should be shared. Let them have custody and they can figure it out. Most families use day care, babysitters, nanny or other help so how is divorce different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've seen this same thing before and it pisses me off, which is why I'm taking the time out of my day to reply to this.

Your higher earning DH may try to rush the proceedings and get you to agree to something quickly so things are not dragged out. But remember, he's trying to control the narrative. You have to take control of the narrative and tell your story of what really happened. Do not act quickly or be pressured to do so which DH will likely try to get you to do. Drag it out and get as much as you possibly can.

They are going to try to make you believe that he has the strong case cause he made more money. That's complete BS. You have a much stronger position here but they don't want you to see that so don't be rushed into trying to get this thing done quickly. Drag it out and get as much money as you can.

But if I drag it out, isn’t that gonna cost me more money?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My brothers wife is getting indefinite alimony although that's in California and they were married 15+ years. She was the one that cheated.

Happened to my husband and his son too. We tried to warn his son. It’s very typical in CA. Both women, not men cheated. Women got the money, kids and men got the debt and left with nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

How does Dad get compensated for the time and relationship he gave up with his children? I think of my own DH who did give up career opportunities when our kids were young to coach their sports teams by limiting travel and work dinners. He had to manage his schedule to do take on his share of pick ups/drop offs/ doc appts. All of this has made him an equal parent to me and the kids turn to both of us when they need stuff as college kids. I think he would have lost a lot if he didn’t put in the work to build this relationship with them (which didn’t actually come naturally to him). I am not unsympathetic to the argument that women who stayed home gave up opportunities for the family and should be acknowledged in a divorce. But how do you calculate the effect on the other spouse?

I’ve got a fun answer to this one. Another case where jurisdiction matters so it may be different elsewhere. Note that I am still in deep litigation over it and I pray for a different outcome than what I’m facing. Depending on states and judicial discretion a judge will happily award full or majority custody to one of these dads to allow them to “repair their bond” or “build their relationship” with the kids they had no desire to be around for a decade or more. It doesn’t matter if that dad isn’t home to be with the kids; a third party caregiver is allowed because “different parenting styles.”

I’m not in a state where kids who are 12, 13 or 14 have a say in things and so a parent can force them to adhere to whatever parenting plan they get approved until the day that kid is 18.

So yeah, a SAHM can literally be left with no career and with a very tiny sliver of custody of her children.

If you can’t be a SMBC a post-nup is probably a good idea.

That’s awful. Though if it makes you feel better, most courts will not force a custody arrangement for teenagers beginning at about age 14. If the kid refuses, the kid refuses. They’re not going to involve police to drag the kid to other parent’s home.

Yes. I hope that is what happens in the worst case scenario. Realistically at that point I’ll no longer have spousal support (my state is 1 year for every 3-4 years of marriage until you hit 15-20 years), and if exDH has majority custody on paper he will pay me minimal child support since on paper he’d have them the majority of the time. So I would have the kids in an arrangement where he has minimal financial obligations to them when they’re with me due to the paper custody yet I would also have minimal financial support and maximum financial obligation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My brothers wife is getting indefinite alimony although that's in California and they were married 15+ years. She was the one that cheated.

CA is no-fault and has very favorable alimony laws for the lower earner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've seen this same thing before and it pisses me off, which is why I'm taking the time out of my day to reply to this.

Your higher earning DH may try to rush the proceedings and get you to agree to something quickly so things are not dragged out. But remember, he's trying to control the narrative. You have to take control of the narrative and tell your story of what really happened. Do not act quickly or be pressured to do so which DH will likely try to get you to do. Drag it out and get as much as you possibly can.

They are going to try to make you believe that he has the strong case cause he made more money. That's complete BS. You have a much stronger position here but they don't want you to see that so don't be rushed into trying to get this thing done quickly. Drag it out and get as much money as you can.

But if I drag it out, isn’t that gonna cost me more money?

It's a balance. You of course have to be cognizant of your attny fees but also show that you're not just gonna take whatever DH gives you and go. That's the whole part of negotiation. I was taught to always negotiate from a place of power. You need that mindset because that's what you have in this case given what you've explained in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Also, be very strategic with how you use your attorney. Don't use them for venting, frustration, or emotional support because they bill for that. Do some legal research on your own so you know the laws yourself and what you're entitled to and can ask them the right questions.

Do your own documentation and have everything perfectly organized and laid out for them. That saves a lot of time.

I'm not a fan, but Bethenny Frankel did a podcast series about how to deal with the divorce attorneys that I actually thought was excellent advice for how to keep your fees low.

The key is that your attorney is not going to solve your problem for you. They are just one of your tools. You have to rely on yourself for the documentation, the narrative, and what issues you may think can help you and use the attorney to help you get from point A to point B

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, be very strategic with how you use your attorney. Don't use them for venting, frustration, or emotional support because they bill for that. Do some legal research on your own so you know the laws yourself and what you're entitled to and can ask them the right questions.

Do your own documentation and have everything perfectly organized and laid out for them. That saves a lot of time.

I'm not a fan, but Bethenny Frankel did a podcast series about how to deal with the divorce attorneys that I actually thought was excellent advice for how to keep your fees low.

The key is that your attorney is not going to solve your problem for you. They are just one of your tools. You have to rely on yourself for the documentation, the narrative, and what issues you may think can help you and use the attorney to help you get from point A to point B

This is good advice. I made it through 10 months of a very litigious process (that I didn’t choose) with a very expensive attorney on a $15k retainer and doing all of the heavy lifting myself. Even if you have the money, it’s best to manage the narrative and documentation and not rely on some firm’s expensive, cookie cutter litigation template. And once it was gone my exDH agreed to cover my legal expenses as a way to postpone his own financial disclosures. Once I was ready to put him on the spot I filed for suit money. You can make this work, but it takes hustle and late nights and you need to make them think you don’t have the legal resources you do so you can slowly set a trap on facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why 50/50 on assets plus child support isn’t what you should expect. Alimony is an injustice to any person. The marriage is over, but then financially everyone pretends like it isn’t?

Except that one spouse is forced to absorb all the downside of supporting and sacrificing for the other’s career opportunities while the other harvests all the upside. You can’t make it be over unless you have a magical time machine that resets the spouse’s age and opportunities to where they were before they had to stop working. Alimony recognizes the impossibility of that.

How does Dad get compensated for the time and relationship he gave up with his children? I think of my own DH who did give up career opportunities when our kids were young to coach their sports teams by limiting travel and work dinners. He had to manage his schedule to do take on his share of pick ups/drop offs/ doc appts. All of this has made him an equal parent to me and the kids turn to both of us when they need stuff as college kids. I think he would have lost a lot if he didn’t put in the work to build this relationship with them (which didn’t actually come naturally to him). I am not unsympathetic to the argument that women who stayed home gave up opportunities for the family and should be acknowledged in a divorce. But how do you calculate the effect on the other spouse?

Why do you assume they aren’t? Working has nothing to do with that as it depends on the job and person. If they choose not to, that was their choice.

Well most of the arguments for alimony are based on the spouse giving up her job prospects to do all the parenting and household tasks that frees the Dad up to focus exclusively on career. Yes, it’s a choice both parties make and it isn’t without risks to either. Moms lose their earning power and Dads don’t build the relationships they could have. I actually think the latter is a bigger tragedy.

I believe that 50/50 custody split, 50% of marital property and retirement accounts, child support, funding college plans at the same rate as prior to divorce, agreement on protecting children’s inheritance through trusts, and some time limited spousal support should be markers of high net worth couple divorces. I have a hard time getting to indefinite alimony, absent a post nup agreement. Both adults know the risks they took.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Indefinite alimony is absurd. Most SAHMs are completely useless to begin with. Divorced women should just re-enter the workforce.

Quite the opposite. I agree that most of them are useless, but this is exactly why their exes have to pay. It was a luxury choice that they made, to basically keep an adult human pet, so they alone have to bear the cost of that choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This also leads to a bigger question that I actually was debating with my DH earlier today. I don't think a DH leaves his family and wife who wants the marriage to remain intact unless he has something or someone waiting in the wings. This is where the fidelity issue comes in or the fact that something was going on that the family wasn't aware of which could help with leverage in any settlement.

The only non-infidelity story I’ve hear is my one.

Mine left after he decided he wanted to retire at 55 without telling me. Then I got cc’ed on meeting notes from a conversation he had with our joint finanical advisor who said our retirement savings were off track and he would have to do x, y and z to sustain us through retirement if he wanted to be done at 55.

Instead, exDH apparently spent a week doing the math, realized that he could retire at 55 if he cut me loose after a major raise he was anticipating, and filed a few weeks before that raise would hit. Not sure how other jurisdictions do it but in mine, income after filing date is the earners’ and no longer marital.

Highly effective retirement savings strategy, btw.

I call BS. Were you somehow a major drain on finances that divorcing and retiring would be cheaper than just retiring? Or did he intend to divorce all along, and just picked the optimal moment for him to do so? I am a primary breadwinner, and I don’t see how divorcing and giving up part of our joint assets could make my retirement more affordable.