DOJ says Yale medical school discriminated against Asian, White applicants

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a bummer as studies have shown repeatedly that health outcomes for black patients (especially for chronic conditions) are much better when they see black physicians. Individuals in race-matched pairings are far more likely to see their doctors and even their mortality rate decreases

I agree. As an Indian, I have preferred to only be around other Indians. I live in Herndon, my doctor is Indian, my dentist is Indian, I shop at Patel groceries, there are fantastic Indian restaurants around me. My kids goes to a school with many other Indian kids. I do believe that this ensures the best outcomes health and otherwise for me and my family.

I hope this will not be considered insular.

Sounds like you know it’s wrong but are trying to just call it insular. The correct term is racist.

As a person of Asian background, I'd call this racist, unless it was done due to a language barrier or dietary reasons.

This person is yanking our chain to make a point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a bummer as studies have shown repeatedly that health outcomes for black patients (especially for chronic conditions) are much better when they see black physicians. Individuals in race-matched pairings are far more likely to see their doctors and even their mortality rate decreases

Not a bummer at all. Don’t you want all doctors to meet the same qualifications regardless of race?

Doctor patient relationship is fairly intimate. I'm not sure all doctors can meet the same qualifications. If I'm having menstrual issues, or breast issues or pregnancy issues or other female issues and I kind of personally like to see female doctor. I can imagine there could be a similar comfort level with a doctor of the same race as the patient.

Even if I don't feel that way, I could certainly imagine there could be patients that do. This is an interesting issue. Have there been studies done about it?

Yes, many. Generally they find that white patients get similar care from doctors of all races, while black patients get better care from black doctors than white doctors

Nobody has cited a single actual study on this thread. I'm sure they exist, it's just that they tend to be embarrassingly low-quality and have obvious flaws.

Can't help you with the study, but I can imagine that the quality of care isn't necessarily from the doctor end of the communication. It could be from the patient end. Some patients might be more comfortable speaking to a doctor of their own race or common native language, and therefore, the care improves.

This is indeed plausible. The question is how much doctor competence you are willing to sacrifice along other dimensions to get this fit, and how much is this fit really worth in actual medical outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We all know many colleges discriminate against Asians and whites. It is a liberal trend that current administration tries to revert. Not because they care about law, or fairness, but because they care about predominantly white maga base. What maga doesn't get is that with a pure merit based adminission, top schools like Yale or Harvard will be 80%+ Asian. And it is not because Asian kids are smarter but because they work harder being pushed most of the times by their families. That's the reality like it or not.

Why would maga care if a lot of doctors are Asian? Does maga have respect for doctors of any race?

You didn't get it. Maga care about their white kids not getting into colleges and about them not being able to find white doctors. They blame it on DEI but even without the DEI, their kids will not get higher chances because in a merit based process Asian will fill all the spots.

Asians consistently fail holistic admissions. It’s not racism but rather being one dimensional.

Why do we tolerate these sort of racist statements toward Asian people? If anything the data (at least for college admissions, where we have it) indicate the opposite, that Asian candidates are not one dimensional at all. The number of Asian admits is suppressed by the admissions process because there is a quota.

So many Asian racists on here. The Asian-Americans we see at my kids' schools are incredibly diverse in interests (team sports, student/local government, music, business). The wave of student accomplishments are impressive.

Racist Asians…..fixed it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a bummer as studies have shown repeatedly that health outcomes for black patients (especially for chronic conditions) are much better when they see black physicians. Individuals in race-matched pairings are far more likely to see their doctors and even their mortality rate decreases

Not a bummer at all. Don’t you want all doctors to meet the same qualifications regardless of race?

Why do you assume that test scores equal competency. They have whole bodies that regulate doctors. You cannot become a doctor without passing very difficult exams. If your doctor passed those exams they are deemed competent. Most everyone at Yale passes those exams so that means their admission standards are fine. My issue is people are assuming that med school is the end all be all- no there are regulators (state and national). Also you basically can’t get into any MD med school no matter what your race is with lower than an 80th percentile on your MCAT.

Doctor patient relationship is fairly intimate. I'm not sure all doctors can meet the same qualifications. If I'm having menstrual issues, or breast issues or pregnancy issues or other female issues and I kind of personally like to see female doctor. I can imagine there could be a similar comfort level with a doctor of the same race as the patient.

Even if I don't feel that way, I could certainly imagine there could be patients that do. This is an interesting issue. Have there been studies done about it?

Yes, many. Generally they find that white patients get similar care from doctors of all races, while black patients get better care from black doctors than white doctors

Nobody has cited a single actual study on this thread. I'm sure they exist, it's just that they tend to be embarrassingly low-quality and have obvious flaws.

Can't help you with the study, but I can imagine that the quality of care isn't necessarily from the doctor end of the communication. It could be from the patient end. Some patients might be more comfortable speaking to a doctor of their own race or common native language, and therefore, the care improves.

This is indeed plausible. The question is how much doctor competence you are willing to sacrifice along other dimensions to get this fit, and how much is this fit really worth in actual medical outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Why do you assume that test scores equal competency. They have whole bodies that regulate doctors. You cannot become a doctor without passing very difficult exams. If your doctor passed those exams they are deemed competent. Most everyone at Yale passes those exams so that means their admission standards are fine. My issue is people are assuming that med school is the end all be all- no there are regulators (state and national). Also you basically can’t get into any MD med school no matter what your race is with lower than an 80th percentile on your MCAT.

[Anonymous]

Princeton used to just make the cheaters drop out. It must be a lot now. Legacy families? Donors? Students who arrived with high SAT and GPA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We all know many colleges discriminate against Asians and whites. It is a liberal trend that current administration tries to revert. Not because they care about law, or fairness, but because they care about predominantly white maga base. What maga doesn't get is that with a pure merit based adminission, top schools like Yale or Harvard will be 80%+ Asian. And it is not because Asian kids are smarter but because they work harder being pushed most of the times by their families. That's the reality like it or not.

Why would maga care if a lot of doctors are Asian? Does maga have respect for doctors of any race?

You didn't get it. Maga care about their white kids not getting into colleges and about them not being able to find white doctors. They blame it on DEI but even without the DEI, their kids will not get higher chances because in a merit based process Asian will fill all the spots.

Asians consistently fail holistic admissions. It’s not racism but rather being one dimensional.

Why do we tolerate these sort of racist statements toward Asian people? If anything the data (at least for college admissions, where we have it) indicate the opposite, that Asian candidates are not one dimensional at all. The number of Asian admits is suppressed by the admissions process because there is a quota.

So many Asian racists on here. The Asian-Americans we see at my kids' schools are incredibly diverse in interests (team sports, student/local government, music, business). The wave of student accomplishments are impressive.

Racist Asians…..fixed it

Unfortunately, there always seems to be both but hopefully in the very minority. I like the believe the majority is sane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so tired. Nothing productive has come out of pages of discussion. Nothing is holding back Asian American students: at most top schools they’re 20-30-% of the student body and now at some schools it’s as high as nearly 50%. Black students are entirely underrepresented at the top. We can bicker about the reasons, but that is a fact. These two groups don’t need to be in conversation, because they are not at all connected.

For those looking at med school, don’t take your doctor advice from Dcum. Physicians don’t end their training at med school, and while the white and Asian moms of dcum don’t care about black women dying in hospitals due to patient neglect, some med schools think that’s a worthwhile issue and don’t shrug their shoulders to bias in health. It’s easy to be an unsympathetic a$$hole when you don’t have real issues but need to tell everyone else they’re too lazy or not hardworking enough.

It’s an anti-merit and racist word. Why would anything related to merit be determined by race representation?

Why would merit be solely reduced to grades/test scores?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/merit

[Anonymous]

I think when people say merit in this context (i.e., school admission), they tend to mean academic merit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess when I am next looking for a doctor all I have to do is pick the one with the highest MCAT scores and I will know that I picked the best doctor.

This is a fallacious argument. We would all agree that a small difference in MCAT scores is not meaningful for doctor quality. But yes, all else equal, on average, people who can do well on a high stakes technical test are more likely to have full command of the information required to make accurate diagnoses and to understand the subtleties of the evidence about different kinds of treatments. And to have the interest and ability to keep up with medical research. Do you really not believe this?

I believe that there is a not insignificant share of doctors who are more interested in medicine than in people -- or who at the very least are not able to relate well to the people they are supposed to be caring for. I don't know that the capacity for caring gets adequately captured on the MCAT. -- PP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so tired. Nothing productive has come out of pages of discussion. Nothing is holding back Asian American students: at most top schools they’re 20-30-% of the student body and now at some schools it’s as high as nearly 50%. Black students are entirely underrepresented at the top. We can bicker about the reasons, but that is a fact. These two groups don’t need to be in conversation, because they are not at all connected.

For those looking at med school, don’t take your doctor advice from Dcum. Physicians don’t end their training at med school, and while the white and Asian moms of dcum don’t care about black women dying in hospitals due to patient neglect, some med schools think that’s a worthwhile issue and don’t shrug their shoulders to bias in health. It’s easy to be an unsympathetic a$$hole when you don’t have real issues but need to tell everyone else they’re too lazy or not hardworking enough.

It’s an anti-merit and racist word. Why would anything related to merit be determined by race representation?

Why would merit be solely reduced to grades/test scores?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/merit

It’s definitely not about skin color no matter how you spin it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We all know many colleges discriminate against Asians and whites. It is a liberal trend that current administration tries to revert. Not because they care about law, or fairness, but because they care about predominantly white maga base. What maga doesn't get is that with a pure merit based adminission, top schools like Yale or Harvard will be 80%+ Asian. And it is not because Asian kids are smarter but because they work harder being pushed most of the times by their families. That's the reality like it or not.

Why would maga care if a lot of doctors are Asian? Does maga have respect for doctors of any race?

You didn't get it. Maga care about their white kids not getting into colleges and about them not being able to find white doctors. They blame it on DEI but even without the DEI, their kids will not get higher chances because in a merit based process Asian will fill all the spots.

Asians consistently fail holistic admissions. It’s not racism but rather being one dimensional.

This has been debunked again and again including the SCOTUS ruling in the Harvard lawsuit. And yet you keep bringing it up to mislead people. This is much less true than all white fathers raping their own daughters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We all know many colleges discriminate against Asians and whites. It is a liberal trend that current administration tries to revert. Not because they care about law, or fairness, but because they care about predominantly white maga base. What maga doesn't get is that with a pure merit based adminission, top schools like Yale or Harvard will be 80%+ Asian. And it is not because Asian kids are smarter but because they work harder being pushed most of the times by their families. That's the reality like it or not.

Why would maga care if a lot of doctors are Asian? Does maga have respect for doctors of any race?

You didn't get it. Maga care about their white kids not getting into colleges and about them not being able to find white doctors. They blame it on DEI but even without the DEI, their kids will not get higher chances because in a merit based process Asian will fill all the spots.

Asians consistently fail holistic admissions. It’s not racism but rather being one dimensional.

This has been debunked again and again including the SCOTUS ruling on the Harvard lawsuit. And yet you keep bringing it up to mislead people. This is much less true than all white fathers raping their own daughters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why do you assume that test scores equal competency. They have whole bodies that regulate doctors. You cannot become a doctor without passing very difficult exams. If your doctor passed those exams they are deemed competent. Most everyone at Yale passes those exams so that means their admission standards are fine. My issue is people are assuming that med school is the end all be all- no there are regulators (state and national). Also you basically can’t get into any MD med school no matter what your race is with lower than an 80th percentile on your MCAT.

This fallacy that you're either qualified or not, and that there are no useful distinctions after that point, needs to die. If you're married to this pattern of thinking, hate to say it, it's going to affect the quality of care. There are bad doctors, bad nurses, bad hospitals. They are all qualified, though, in the literal sense that you are implying.

Also, your last sentence is contradicted by the UCLA data. UCLA is an excellent medical school. Black and Hispanic admits had average scores in the 66-72nd percentile depending on year. Average, to make it clear, means that if some applicants had scores above those values (80th percentile, for example, which is your imagined cutoff) then there were also applicants below those thresholds to offset them.

Do you think this picture gets better or worse at lower-ranked schools?

[Anonymous]

Okay let's make this more concrete
You are the admissions committee. Your state is in need of more doctors willing to go into primary care to serve patients in underserved/rural areas. Here are your applicant potentials.
-Applicant 99% percentile MCAT, junior in college, has always wanted to be a doctor, did all of their pre-reqs with As. Joined the typical pre-med courses
-Applicant with 80% percentile MCAT. A nurse. did all her pre-reqs over the course of 3 years while working in a busy trauma center. Speaks fluent Spanish. Has won awards for patient-centered care. Has a family in the area and plans to stay to serve the community
-Applicant with 70% percentile MCAT. served in the military (thank you for your service). has a heart to serve the Veteran population. Wants to be a surgeon. has already done surgical training while serving (did EMS training).

And let me tell you... this is truly what the applicant pool looks like (if not more impressive).

You know based on historical data that anyone with >70% MCAT will pass all boards and succeed. Who will you pick?