Woodley pool suspends member over transgender swimmer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

Article says: “Noticing that the race results had been posted, and that the male swimmer had won two races, Fernandez “decided to go get a marker and write the word ‘BOY’ next to his name.”

Writing BOY next to the swimmers name on the results pages hanging up on the wall that parents and kids look at to see times/finishes is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. That’s a bully move & also a d*ck move.

+1 Not to mention that this vandalism was the result of an adult man looking at a kid in a girls' swimsuit and deciding on his own that she didn't look sufficiently feminine for his tastes.

How do you know that? Maybe he knows the kid and/or the kids family and knows that the kid is a male. It is a small, private swim club after all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The article says this was on July 13, which was a Sunday. Was this even an NVSL meet?

No it was not an NVSL meet. it wasn't even a B meet.

And even if it was an NVSL sanctioned meet their policy on transgender athletes is that the follow the guidance of USA swimming in that you may compete in the gender in which you identify. It is only at the elite level that testosterone testing comes into play.

This guy was out of line and behaved inappropriately. There were more adult ways to handle this situation; take it up with the team reps after the meet or go to the NVSL board. Throwing a fit on deck and writing "boy" next to a swimmers name on a meet sheet is out of line. Seriously can't believe anyone is defending his behavior. He was harassing a freaking CHILD! How is that ever OK? Seriously?
What people don't realize is that this type of behavior allows any and all girls to be harassed just because someone suspects they are trans.

Good for the board for suspending him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

Article says: “Noticing that the race results had been posted, and that the male swimmer had won two races, Fernandez “decided to go get a marker and write the word ‘BOY’ next to his name.”

Writing BOY next to the swimmers name on the results pages hanging up on the wall that parents and kids look at to see times/finishes is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. That’s a bully move & also a d*ck move.

+1 Not to mention that this vandalism was the result of an adult man looking at a kid in a girls' swimsuit and deciding on his own that she didn't look sufficiently feminine for his tastes.

How do you know that? Maybe he knows the kid and/or the kids family and knows that the kid is a male. It is a small, private swim club after all.

In which case his behavior would be an even bigger d*ck move.

[Anonymous]

People talk about “Trump derangement syndrome” but MAGA people see anything they disagree with as a blanket excuse to act without civility, laws or process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

Article says: “Noticing that the race results had been posted, and that the male swimmer had won two races, Fernandez “decided to go get a marker and write the word ‘BOY’ next to his name.”

Writing BOY next to the swimmers name on the results pages hanging up on the wall that parents and kids look at to see times/finishes is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. That’s a bully move & also a d*ck move.

+1 Not to mention that this vandalism was the result of an adult man looking at a kid in a girls' swimsuit and deciding on his own that she didn't look sufficiently feminine for his tastes.

How do you know that? Maybe he knows the kid and/or the kids family and knows that the kid is a male. It is a small, private swim club after all.

July 13th is the end of the swim season. If he knew, I suspect he would have brought this up to the swim team or pool board well before this mini meet.

Stop defending the harassments of a child at a summer swim meet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

Article says: “Noticing that the race results had been posted, and that the male swimmer had won two races, Fernandez “decided to go get a marker and write the word ‘BOY’ next to his name.”

Writing BOY next to the swimmers name on the results pages hanging up on the wall that parents and kids look at to see times/finishes is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. That’s a bully move & also a d*ck move.

+1 Not to mention that this vandalism was the result of an adult man looking at a kid in a girls' swimsuit and deciding on his own that she didn't look sufficiently feminine for his tastes.

How do you know that? Maybe he knows the kid and/or the kids family and knows that the kid is a male. It is a small, private swim club after all.

July 13th is the end of the swim season. If he knew, I suspect he would have brought this up to the swim team or pool board well before this mini meet.

Stop defending the harassments of a child at a summer swim meet.

Bottom line is, the child was a boy and apparently shouldn't have been there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

Article says: “Noticing that the race results had been posted, and that the male swimmer had won two races, Fernandez “decided to go get a marker and write the word ‘BOY’ next to his name.”

Writing BOY next to the swimmers name on the results pages hanging up on the wall that parents and kids look at to see times/finishes is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. That’s a bully move & also a d*ck move.

+1 Not to mention that this vandalism was the result of an adult man looking at a kid in a girls' swimsuit and deciding on his own that she didn't look sufficiently feminine for his tastes.

How do you know that? Maybe he knows the kid and/or the kids family and knows that the kid is a male. It is a small, private swim club after all.

July 13th is the end of the swim season. If he knew, I suspect he would have brought this up to the swim team or pool board well before this mini meet.

Stop defending the harassments of a child at a summer swim meet.

Bottom line is, the child was a boy and apparently shouldn't have been there.

No the bottom line is all we have is this guy’s opinion that the child was a boy Everyone else at the meet though t the child belonged there at this guy decided to become the genital inspector because he was a race marshall. That is insane

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

Article says: “Noticing that the race results had been posted, and that the male swimmer had won two races, Fernandez “decided to go get a marker and write the word ‘BOY’ next to his name.”

Writing BOY next to the swimmers name on the results pages hanging up on the wall that parents and kids look at to see times/finishes is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. That’s a bully move & also a d*ck move.

+1 Not to mention that this vandalism was the result of an adult man looking at a kid in a girls' swimsuit and deciding on his own that she didn't look sufficiently feminine for his tastes.

How do you know that? Maybe he knows the kid and/or the kids family and knows that the kid is a male. It is a small, private swim club after all.

July 13th is the end of the swim season. If he knew, I suspect he would have brought this up to the swim team or pool board well before this mini meet.

Stop defending the harassments of a child at a summer swim meet.

Bottom line is, the child was a boy and apparently shouldn't have been there.

The cheaters were in the wrong not the one person brave enough to point it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

Article says: “Noticing that the race results had been posted, and that the male swimmer had won two races, Fernandez “decided to go get a marker and write the word ‘BOY’ next to his name.”

Writing BOY next to the swimmers name on the results pages hanging up on the wall that parents and kids look at to see times/finishes is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. That’s a bully move & also a d*ck move.

+1 Not to mention that this vandalism was the result of an adult man looking at a kid in a girls' swimsuit and deciding on his own that she didn't look sufficiently feminine for his tastes.

How do you know that? Maybe he knows the kid and/or the kids family and knows that the kid is a male. It is a small, private swim club after all.

July 13th is the end of the swim season. If he knew, I suspect he would have brought this up to the swim team or pool board well before this mini meet.

Stop defending the harassments of a child at a summer swim meet.

Bottom line is, the child was a boy and apparently shouldn't have been there.

Child had every right to be there. NVSL policy allows trans gender athletes and the meet organizers also allowed for it. Don't agree- leave the league or raise it through the appropriate channels instead of harassing a child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

Article says: “Noticing that the race results had been posted, and that the male swimmer had won two races, Fernandez “decided to go get a marker and write the word ‘BOY’ next to his name.”

Writing BOY next to the swimmers name on the results pages hanging up on the wall that parents and kids look at to see times/finishes is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. That’s a bully move & also a d*ck move.

+1 Not to mention that this vandalism was the result of an adult man looking at a kid in a girls' swimsuit and deciding on his own that she didn't look sufficiently feminine for his tastes.

How do you know that? Maybe he knows the kid and/or the kids family and knows that the kid is a male. It is a small, private swim club after all.

July 13th is the end of the swim season. If he knew, I suspect he would have brought this up to the swim team or pool board well before this mini meet.

Stop defending the harassments of a child at a summer swim meet.

Bottom line is, the child was a boy and apparently shouldn't have been there.

The cheaters were in the wrong not the one person brave enough to point it out.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

Article says: “Noticing that the race results had been posted, and that the male swimmer had won two races, Fernandez “decided to go get a marker and write the word ‘BOY’ next to his name.”

Writing BOY next to the swimmers name on the results pages hanging up on the wall that parents and kids look at to see times/finishes is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. That’s a bully move & also a d*ck move.

+1 Not to mention that this vandalism was the result of an adult man looking at a kid in a girls' swimsuit and deciding on his own that she didn't look sufficiently feminine for his tastes.

How do you know that? Maybe he knows the kid and/or the kids family and knows that the kid is a male. It is a small, private swim club after all.

July 13th is the end of the swim season. If he knew, I suspect he would have brought this up to the swim team or pool board well before this mini meet.

Stop defending the harassments of a child at a summer swim meet.

Bottom line is, the child was a boy and apparently shouldn't have been there.

The cheaters were in the wrong not the one person brave enough to point it out.

So you think gown men should go around policing children and their genitals at sporting events?

You are cool with all girls being open to potential harassment just because someone suspects they are not "really" female?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't like how Fernandez handled this.

However, I also don't like how the team or meet organizers handled it, or how NVSL handled it. This is not a situation you can just pretend is not happening. It is happening. There are trans girls competing as girls in sex-segregated sports, and it is raising an issue of fairness.

The sports were sex segregated for a reason. It wasn't arbitrary. We cannot pretend suddenly that it *is* arbitrary because that makes it easier to tell the family of the trans girl "yes, of course she can swim in the girls category! we don't care!" Some people do care. And if, as in this case, the trans girl goes on to win, many people will view this as unfair to the biological girls who lost to someone who is making an affirmative choice to identify as a girl. A choice those girls didn't have.

This is where the progressive stance on trans girls in sports lose me. We cannot just pretend there isn't a problem here. And we can't just act like pointing out the problem immediately makes you a bigot.

If this wasn't a problem, there would be no sex segregation in sports to begin with.

I mostly agree with you, but I think you assume trans people don't "need" to be trans, but that is who they are. It is a really difficult situation and unfortunately boys sports are not a welcoming space for trans girls. Everyone deserves to have access to sports.

One, I have no opinion on what trans people need -- that is for them to decide. If a trans person decides they need hormone blockers, surgery, binding, whatever, that's fine with me. Those are personal, individual choices that have nothing to do with me, and I support laws that permit people to decide what they need for themselves. I feel about transness the way I feel about abortion -- it is no one else's business what an individual decides to do with their own body.

Two, I do not think boys sports are universally an unwelcoming space for trans girls. I actually think if we normalized the idea that trans girls participate on boys teams in certain sports, especially in progressive areas like the DMV, you would discover it's fine. I think we need to normalize talking about what makes sense, and what is fair, while also being respectful towards the gender expression of these kids, being thoughtful with our language, etc.

And yes, everyone deserves to have access to sports! That is specifically why many people, myself included, have started to get wary of the way that trans girls in sex-segregated sports may actually limit the access of biological girls and women to these sports.

I used to say "oh it doesn't matter, let people compete as they identify." Lia Thomas changed my feelings about it. A trans girl or woman competing on girls teams and in girls leagues can reduce the number of biological girls/women who have access to athletics, and reduce their success within those sports.

A trans person didn't choose to be trans. But a biological woman also didn't choose to be a biological woman. I don't think you can ask biological girls and women to step aside and give up access to things like athletics, that they had to fight for for decades, to make space for trans women. I think we need trans sports categories and to work on social attitudes so that we can still sex segregate in sports without it being an unfair burden on trans girls and women.

Here is a resource you might consider helpful: https://www.hrc.org/resources/lgbtq-people-and-sports#:~:text=For%20millions%20of%20Americans%2C%20sport,space%20for%20aspiring%20LGBTQ%2B%20athletes

It's a bit absurd to say "it would be fine" . In many cases it isn't "fine" - there is a reason sports participation is very low among lgbtq kids

it's not absurd to suggest than in a liberal suburb of a liberal city, it would be fine for a trans girl to participate in the boys category of a sport where boys and girls already train together. This is a swim club that was willing to kick out a member because they felt he'd been intolerant and unkind. But apparently if a trans girl raced against boys at that same club, she would experience unacceptable discrimination? That makes no sense.

With regards to trans athletes, there is a fundamental issue because they don't fully belong in either girls or boys categories. As someone who, though not trans, has often struggled with not fully belonging in my life, I have a great deal of empathy for kids in that position. It must be hard, and I always teach my own kids to practice tolerance and acceptance of others, to not get hung up on the ways in which a person might deviate from norms, and to see to find commonality not division. I absolutely think here is a place for trans kids in sports and I think we need to work to make sure that space is safe and welcoming.

But that doesn't mean we should pretend there is no physiological difference between boys and girls. This makes no sense, especially when we've obviously gone to the trouble of creating separate categories based on those physiological differences. We don't have to abandon fairness or common sense in order to make sure trans kids can participate.

Why is the only way to be tolerant and welcoming of trans girls in sports to allow them to compete against biological girls? Why is that the only solution? The one solution that disadvantages biological girls is the only possible option? Why can't we have a separate category for trans athletes, or a rule where all athletes compete with "sex assigned at birth" but also broad tolerance for gender presentation (including allowing any swimmer to wear a full coverage suit if preferred, regardless of sex or division) and promote all-gender practices and camaraderie? Why is what I'm suggesting bigoted?

He wasn't kicked out for being intolerant and unkind, just unkind.

Oh give me a freaking break. Being "unkind?" This is not kindergarten.

He was 100% right to raise the issue and, apparently, did so in a completely appropriate manner. If he did not, there would be swarms of video proving otherwise.

Article says: “Noticing that the race results had been posted, and that the male swimmer had won two races, Fernandez “decided to go get a marker and write the word ‘BOY’ next to his name.”

Writing BOY next to the swimmers name on the results pages hanging up on the wall that parents and kids look at to see times/finishes is not appropriate by any stretch of the imagination. That’s a bully move & also a d*ck move.

+1 Not to mention that this vandalism was the result of an adult man looking at a kid in a girls' swimsuit and deciding on his own that she didn't look sufficiently feminine for his tastes.

How do you know that? Maybe he knows the kid and/or the kids family and knows that the kid is a male. It is a small, private swim club after all.

July 13th is the end of the swim season. If he knew, I suspect he would have brought this up to the swim team or pool board well before this mini meet.

Stop defending the harassments of a child at a summer swim meet.

Bottom line is, the child was a boy and apparently shouldn't have been there.

The cheaters were in the wrong not the one person brave enough to point it out.

So you think gown men should go around policing children and their genitals at sporting events?

You are cool with all girls being open to potential harassment just because someone suspects they are not "really" female?

He was a registered boy swimming against girls. Pathetic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look, here is the question:

Should sports segregate by sex?

If your answer is no, then there is your fix. Don't segregate. It's one group. Trans and intersex kids become irrelevant. Though be prepared for fewer girls to participate in athletics, even at the youngest levels, because it's harder for them to be successful and the sports will naturally start to cater to boys in all respect (culture, training, how equipment is designed, etc.) because those will be the people most interested and successful in the sport. So it will be like it was 80 years ago.

If your answer is that yes, sports should segregate by sex, you have to have a firm line. A clear, firm line. Everyone on this side of the line competes with boys. Everyone on that side of the line competes with girls. The line has to be communicated to everyone and you need buy-in for where the line is drawn. You can't have one team drawing the line here and another team drawing it over there. You can't have a line that wiggles around depending on who is around that day and what "feels" fair in the moment. You need a clear line.

Whatever your stance on this, if you can't answer the bolded question above with a clear yes or no, then your input isn't really helpful here. And if your answer is yes, you need to be able to convey a clear, easy to follow rule for how kids get assigned to a competition group, and you need to be able to convince the most other people to agree with it. Otherwise you are trying to force a rule that feels unfair or wrong onto everyone else, and that's never going to work.

Don't segregate by sex, do segregate by height/weight or qualifying times / seeding rounds.
So, your kid may be the fastest swimmer in the race for U-10s who are under 50 inches. Or, he may be the fastest swimmer in the U-10 red group, where groups are based on last meet's times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look, here is the question:

Should sports segregate by sex?

If your answer is no, then there is your fix. Don't segregate. It's one group. Trans and intersex kids become irrelevant. Though be prepared for fewer girls to participate in athletics, even at the youngest levels, because it's harder for them to be successful and the sports will naturally start to cater to boys in all respect (culture, training, how equipment is designed, etc.) because those will be the people most interested and successful in the sport. So it will be like it was 80 years ago.

If your answer is that yes, sports should segregate by sex, you have to have a firm line. A clear, firm line. Everyone on this side of the line competes with boys. Everyone on that side of the line competes with girls. The line has to be communicated to everyone and you need buy-in for where the line is drawn. You can't have one team drawing the line here and another team drawing it over there. You can't have a line that wiggles around depending on who is around that day and what "feels" fair in the moment. You need a clear line.

Whatever your stance on this, if you can't answer the bolded question above with a clear yes or no, then your input isn't really helpful here. And if your answer is yes, you need to be able to convey a clear, easy to follow rule for how kids get assigned to a competition group, and you need to be able to convince the most other people to agree with it. Otherwise you are trying to force a rule that feels unfair or wrong onto everyone else, and that's never going to work.

Don't segregate by sex, do segregate by height/weight or qualifying times / seeding rounds.
So, your kid may be the fastest swimmer in the race for U-10s who are under 50 inches. Or, he may be the fastest swimmer in the U-10 red group, where groups are based on last meet's times.

Just say you want to abolish girls’ sports and be done with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It was a mixed heat B meet. Dude overreacted and deserved to be suspended.

It says nowhere that it was a mixed heat and even if mixed they would sort winners of the heat by gender.