Thomas Jefferson TJHSST - why not Honors Algebra I/Honors Geometry for TJ admissions?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

So...nobody bought the test answers. Nobody cheated.

Some kids studied more than others.
Kids who study are always going to have an advantage over kids that do not study.

Trying to hide the test like they did with quant q only makes the test less available to those without resources.
Just use the PSAT.
It is widely understood and has a lot of free support online.

#fakenews - Cheating was so widespread they had to change the entire process.

They changed the process because they wanted to "promote greater diversity that reflected the students in the district"
IOW, they were embarrassed by the low number of URM kids getting into TJ.
It's crazy that you think people forgot the circumstances surrounding the change in the admissions process.

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

That's not true. They changed the process to end the widespread cheating that resulted in only students from a few wealthy feeders getting selected into this program.

Nope. Diversity. Why else would you see an increase in SPED, ESOL, and URMs? Also, quotas from middle schools. I think we need to see the math class of the kids from the "quota" middle schools. I bet there are some out there where not a single Geometry kid was picked and only SPED, ESOL, and URMs.

Why? And so what? Perhaps the kids from those schools were all in Alg1. Who cares? There have always been Alg 1 students who have attended and successfully navigated TJ - and even thrived!

DP
It used to be a small handful. Now it's like a third of the entering class.

But you're going to use math advancement as a proxy for who is more "deserving" by claiming that those students "will be able to access the most advanced math and physics courses at TJ" - even though most students who are extremely advanced when they enter TJ choose not to do so.

Clearly the math level isn't a very good indicator of anything without test scores.
You can shove a C student up the math ladder.
The kids entering TJ with Algebra 2 for the class of 2025 were the worst students the math department had ever seen.

You lost, and the next access point for you to maybe win will be the School Board elections in 2027. And I seriously doubt that you're going to have the kind of momentum that you need at that point if you didn't have enough in 2023 to get even ONE conservative elected county-wide.

I agree, the FCPS board is not going to flip anytime soon.
However, the admissions process does not select for merit very well and a test along with the middle school quotas would be an improvement over the current method.

There is also another avenue to maintaining merit at TJ.
State level legislation can also require a test.
This is what they did with the hecht calandra act in NY and Virginia could follow suit.

The school will either succeed or fail under the new admissions criteria and right now, in the first year with an entire population of the new admissions process, things are going fine. Go find a battle to wage online that doesn't involve you disparaging a bunch of children that didn't select the admissions process that they participated in.

Fighting racism is a worthy battle. What you are doing is making excuses for defending racism.
This entire change was driven by racism. Perhaps it's not the type of racism you think needs to be fought but it is racism nonetheless.
It is rigging the system to get a particular racial outcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

So...nobody bought the test answers. Nobody cheated.

Some kids studied more than others.
Kids who study are always going to have an advantage over kids that do not study.

Trying to hide the test like they did with quant q only makes the test less available to those without resources.
Just use the PSAT.
It is widely understood and has a lot of free support online.

#fakenews - Cheating was so widespread they had to change the entire process.

They changed the process because they wanted to "promote greater diversity that reflected the students in the district"
IOW, they were embarrassed by the low number of URM kids getting into TJ.
It's crazy that you think people forgot the circumstances surrounding the change in the admissions process.

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

That's not true. They changed the process to end the widespread cheating that resulted in only students from a few wealthy feeders getting selected into this program.

That is contrary to almost all the reporting at the time. The change was obviously about race.

There was the "reported" reason and there were the actual reasons, some of which were the same and some of which were different.

Not sure why you think you know better if you weren't paying any attention then.

I was at the hearings.
The change was quite clearly about race.
A lot of it was pro-black and pro-hispanic but a significant portion of it was anti-asian.

Increasing the number of URMs was one of the main reasons. Cheating was another - FCPS had wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the Cogat and has wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the TJ exam. Instead, they changed the tests.

Other reasons for the admissions changes were to change the culture of the school. Both cheating inside the school and to make it universally more attractive, to address the decline in interest from students of all demographics. They haven't really succeeded at the latter. Interest and application numbers have not increased - but at least they haven't decreased. The ongoing national negative publicity may also have affected these numbers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

So...nobody bought the test answers. Nobody cheated.

Some kids studied more than others.
Kids who study are always going to have an advantage over kids that do not study.

Trying to hide the test like they did with quant q only makes the test less available to those without resources.
Just use the PSAT.
It is widely understood and has a lot of free support online.

#fakenews - Cheating was so widespread they had to change the entire process.

They changed the process because they wanted to "promote greater diversity that reflected the students in the district"
IOW, they were embarrassed by the low number of URM kids getting into TJ.
It's crazy that you think people forgot the circumstances surrounding the change in the admissions process.

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

That's not true. They changed the process to end the widespread cheating that resulted in only students from a few wealthy feeders getting selected into this program.

That is contrary to almost all the reporting at the time. The change was obviously about race.

There was the "reported" reason and there were the actual reasons, some of which were the same and some of which were different.

Not sure why you think you know better if you weren't paying any attention then.

I was at the hearings.
The change was quite clearly about race.
A lot of it was pro-black and pro-hispanic but a significant portion of it was anti-asian.

Increasing the number of URMs was one of the main reasons. Cheating was another - FCPS had wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the Cogat and has wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the TJ exam. Instead, they changed the tests.

Other reasons for the admissions changes were to change the culture of the school. Both cheating inside the school and to make it universally more attractive, to address the decline in interest from students of all demographics. They haven't really succeeded at the latter. Interest and application numbers have not increased - but at least they haven't decreased. The ongoing national negative publicity may also have affected these numbers.

Race was not "one of the main reasons," it was the driving factor, the primary reason.
What cheating? Are you talking about test prep?
The primary board member that was concerned about prepping was against the admissions change and retired shortly thereafter.
What sort of cheating? Do you also think that studying is cheating or did people buy the test answers in advance?

I don't think they were having trouble with applications, were they?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

So...nobody bought the test answers. Nobody cheated.

Some kids studied more than others.
Kids who study are always going to have an advantage over kids that do not study.

Trying to hide the test like they did with quant q only makes the test less available to those without resources.
Just use the PSAT.
It is widely understood and has a lot of free support online.

#fakenews - Cheating was so widespread they had to change the entire process.

They changed the process because they wanted to "promote greater diversity that reflected the students in the district"
IOW, they were embarrassed by the low number of URM kids getting into TJ.
It's crazy that you think people forgot the circumstances surrounding the change in the admissions process.

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

That's not true. They changed the process to end the widespread cheating that resulted in only students from a few wealthy feeders getting selected into this program.

That is contrary to almost all the reporting at the time. The change was obviously about race.

There was the "reported" reason and there were the actual reasons, some of which were the same and some of which were different.

Not sure why you think you know better if you weren't paying any attention then.

I was at the hearings.
The change was quite clearly about race.
A lot of it was pro-black and pro-hispanic but a significant portion of it was anti-asian.

Increasing the number of URMs was one of the main reasons. Cheating was another - FCPS had wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the Cogat and has wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the TJ exam. Instead, they changed the tests.

Other reasons for the admissions changes were to change the culture of the school. Both cheating inside the school and to make it universally more attractive, to address the decline in interest from students of all demographics. They haven't really succeeded at the latter. Interest and application numbers have not increased - but at least they haven't decreased. The ongoing national negative publicity may also have affected these numbers.

Yup, the “race to nowhere” culture needed a reset.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

So...nobody bought the test answers. Nobody cheated.

Some kids studied more than others.
Kids who study are always going to have an advantage over kids that do not study.

Trying to hide the test like they did with quant q only makes the test less available to those without resources.
Just use the PSAT.
It is widely understood and has a lot of free support online.

#fakenews - Cheating was so widespread they had to change the entire process.

They changed the process because they wanted to "promote greater diversity that reflected the students in the district"
IOW, they were embarrassed by the low number of URM kids getting into TJ.
It's crazy that you think people forgot the circumstances surrounding the change in the admissions process.

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

That's not true. They changed the process to end the widespread cheating that resulted in only students from a few wealthy feeders getting selected into this program.

That is contrary to almost all the reporting at the time. The change was obviously about race.

There was the "reported" reason and there were the actual reasons, some of which were the same and some of which were different.

Not sure why you think you know better if you weren't paying any attention then.

I was at the hearings.
The change was quite clearly about race.
A lot of it was pro-black and pro-hispanic but a significant portion of it was anti-asian.

Increasing the number of URMs was one of the main reasons. Cheating was another - FCPS had wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the Cogat and has wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the TJ exam. Instead, they changed the tests.

Other reasons for the admissions changes were to change the culture of the school. Both cheating inside the school and to make it universally more attractive, to address the decline in interest from students of all demographics. They haven't really succeeded at the latter. Interest and application numbers have not increased - but at least they haven't decreased. The ongoing national negative publicity may also have affected these numbers.

Yup, the “race to nowhere” culture needed a reset.

So much less toxic now!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

So...nobody bought the test answers. Nobody cheated.

Some kids studied more than others.
Kids who study are always going to have an advantage over kids that do not study.

Trying to hide the test like they did with quant q only makes the test less available to those without resources.
Just use the PSAT.
It is widely understood and has a lot of free support online.

#fakenews - Cheating was so widespread they had to change the entire process.

They changed the process because they wanted to "promote greater diversity that reflected the students in the district"
IOW, they were embarrassed by the low number of URM kids getting into TJ.
It's crazy that you think people forgot the circumstances surrounding the change in the admissions process.

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

That's not true. They changed the process to end the widespread cheating that resulted in only students from a few wealthy feeders getting selected into this program.

That is contrary to almost all the reporting at the time. The change was obviously about race.

There was the "reported" reason and there were the actual reasons, some of which were the same and some of which were different.

Not sure why you think you know better if you weren't paying any attention then.

I was at the hearings.
The change was quite clearly about race.
A lot of it was pro-black and pro-hispanic but a significant portion of it was anti-asian.

Increasing the number of URMs was one of the main reasons. Cheating was another - FCPS had wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the Cogat and has wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the TJ exam. Instead, they changed the tests.

Other reasons for the admissions changes were to change the culture of the school. Both cheating inside the school and to make it universally more attractive, to address the decline in interest from students of all demographics. They haven't really succeeded at the latter. Interest and application numbers have not increased - but at least they haven't decreased. The ongoing national negative publicity may also have affected these numbers.

Yup, the “race to nowhere” culture needed a reset.

So much less toxic now!

I don't know about toxic but it is much less stressful for the good students.

They're not really competing with 550 other5 students, they are really only competing with like 250 of them. The rest are sort of drifting along.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

So...nobody bought the test answers. Nobody cheated.

Some kids studied more than others.
Kids who study are always going to have an advantage over kids that do not study.

Trying to hide the test like they did with quant q only makes the test less available to those without resources.
Just use the PSAT.
It is widely understood and has a lot of free support online.

#fakenews - Cheating was so widespread they had to change the entire process.

They changed the process because they wanted to "promote greater diversity that reflected the students in the district"
IOW, they were embarrassed by the low number of URM kids getting into TJ.
It's crazy that you think people forgot the circumstances surrounding the change in the admissions process.

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

That's not true. They changed the process to end the widespread cheating that resulted in only students from a few wealthy feeders getting selected into this program.

That is contrary to almost all the reporting at the time. The change was obviously about race.

There was the "reported" reason and there were the actual reasons, some of which were the same and some of which were different.

Not sure why you think you know better if you weren't paying any attention then.

I was at the hearings.
The change was quite clearly about race.
A lot of it was pro-black and pro-hispanic but a significant portion of it was anti-asian.

Increasing the number of URMs was one of the main reasons. Cheating was another - FCPS had wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the Cogat and has wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the TJ exam. Instead, they changed the tests.

Other reasons for the admissions changes were to change the culture of the school. Both cheating inside the school and to make it universally more attractive, to address the decline in interest from students of all demographics. They haven't really succeeded at the latter. Interest and application numbers have not increased - but at least they haven't decreased. The ongoing national negative publicity may also have affected these numbers.

Yup, the “race to nowhere” culture needed a reset.

So much less toxic now!

I don't know about toxic but it is much less stressful for the good students.

They're not really competing with 550 other5 students, they are really only competing with like 250 of them. The rest are sort of drifting along.

Since they stopped accepting the cheaters, things have calmed down. There's far less cheating. Kids even help each other now.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Families who send their kids to outside enrichment, including test prep, with the goal of gaining admission to TJ are “gaming” the system.

Not really, at least not all of us. DS loves math and loves his math competition class. Does that mean he has a bit of a leg up in his math class? Sure, he has been exposed to many of the concepts before and he has probably had more math practice than kids who don’t do math outside of school. Are we gaming the system? Not intentionally. He dropped the grade level math class he initially took in favor of math competition and we were fine with that. Would he have a leg up on the Quant test if they still had it? Probably, but that is not the reason why he is taking the class.

So it is “ok” for him to participate in enrichment because he loves math vs a kid who is strong at math and whose parents are interested in TJ?

I don’t have a problem with them dropping the Quant test as it was, that test was being specifically prepped for and did provide an advantage to students who could afford prep.

I like seats for each MS. We know that those seats are not all used by kids from those schools and I appreciate them making sure that there is space for kids who are interested in STEM at schools where the kids are less likely to have the outside support to imp[rove or strengthen academic skills.

I like that the criteria is now focused on STEM measures that are available at all schools, so classes. I wouldn’t have a problem if there was a way to weight participation in Mathcounts, Science Olympiad and the like if they are available at all MS. I do think that those clubs show additional interest/investment in STEM but they need to be available to all the kids and not just the ones with AAP Centers.

I would not have a problem if the applications were weighted based on the highest level of math available at each MS. The MS with Algebra II can add a weight to those kids scores to choose their top 1.5%. The schools that only have a few kids in Geometry and more kids in Algebra can still send those kids. But punishing kids who come from families that don’t know about AAP or math paths or that their kid is really good at math shouldn’t be denied access to a great cohort of kids and some amazing opportunities. The AAP Centers with Algebra 2 kids and Geometry kids should be sending those kids. The schools with smaller cohorts send kids with Algebra 1 H and TJ is in a position to support those kids and their interest in STEM in a unique way. But the Algebra 1 only kids would be a smaller group of kids who are interested in STEM and need some supports that the Carson, Cooper, Longfellow, Rocky Run kids don’t need.

I specifically said “with the goal of gaining admission to TJ”. If it’s your kid’s sincere interest, sure. But if your kid shows a mild interest and you push it because you want them to go to TJ then it is “gaming” the system.

That is the dumbest definition of "gaming" the system I have ever heard.
If you don't want to push your kid to study and strive for academic excellence unless they have a natural interest in studying then that's up to you but what you call "gaming" the system is usually better known as good parenting.

Pushing your kid into certain activities just because you want them to go to TJ is not “academic excellence”, it’s gaming the system. And it’s how we ended up with a school full of over-pushed kids instead of true STEM-loving kids.

That is what ruined TJ for everyone.

Studying is not "certain activities" it is the primary method of education.
Studying ruined TJ for the kids that didn't study.

If by studying you mean buying the test answers, then sure!

Nobody bought test answers.

If you have to lie to make your point then maybe you don't have much of a point.

DP. Reposting what we do know about the TJ test prep scandal...


There was enough concern in the community about test prep companies "cracking the test" that they changed the test/process multiple times over the years. Affluent families who could afford these programs were buying their kids an unfair advantage in admissions.

In fact, back in 2017 the SB switched to quant-q, which intentionally didn’t share prep, in an effort to reduce this unfair advantage.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/04/26/is-t...rfax-discrimination/
“ “Is it gonna once again advantage those kids whose parents can pay to sign them up for special prep camps to now be prepping for science testing as well?” Megan McLaughlin [FCPS School Board] asked when presented with the new plan.

Admissions director Jeremy Shughart doesn’t think so. The firm that markets the math portion of the test, Quant-Q, doesn’t release materials to the public, a practice that should make them harder for test-prep schools to crack.”


TJ students and others have publicly acknowledged the unfair advantage that money can buy and that test prep companies have a "cache of previous and example prompts".

https://www.tjtoday.org/23143/showcase/the-children-left-behind/
“ Families with more money can afford to give children that extra edge by signing them up for whatever prep classes they can find. They can pay money to tutoring organizations to teach their children test-taking skills, “skills learned outside of school,” and to access a cache of previous and example prompts, as I witnessed when I took TJ prep; even if prompts become outdated by test changes, even access to old prompts enables private tutoring pupils to gain an upper edge over others: pupils become accustomed to the format of the writing sections and gain an approximate idea of what to expect.”


TJ students admitted that they shared quant-q test questions with a test prep company or they saw nearly identical questions on the test.
https://www.facebook.com/tjvents/posts/pfbid0jKy4hotXF8AxKwfHm2MAVi7e2yYoCqtrTTXPYsszAdQg6uMoTmReMidqyM1mpu9Bl

Examples of various test prep companies harvesting test questions and sharing with others.
https://katedalby.com/get-tj-update/
The math required for the test is basic math, algebra, and geometry. In the past, we have used old SAT tests from 30 years ago augmented with select problems to mimic the Quant Q. In order to adapt to the changes, we will increase the number of permutation and combination problems in response to students’ observations about the math last fall.

https://www.optimaltjprep.com/
““M. said that the math questions were very similar to the challenge problems she did with you in classes.” - C.R. (Mother, after 2018-19 test)
“E. said that the math questions were very close to what she did with you during the last 2 sessions. To quote her exactly: 'Dr, Tripathi's math problems were dead on point.' We really appreciate your help with her preparation for the test!” - L.R. (Father, after 2017-18 test)”

Many videos showing how to solve actual SIS math questions on TJ admissions tests:
https://www.youtube.com/@katedalbysinspiringtestpre864/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@EduAvenuesTJTestPrep
https://www.youtube.com/@principiatutorsconsultants4395/videos



Kids from affluent families who attend these test prep programs have an unfair advantage. The test prep companies are constantly trying to "crack the test". They ask students to share details/questions about the tests and then share that info with other students.

So...nobody bought the test answers. Nobody cheated.

Some kids studied more than others.
Kids who study are always going to have an advantage over kids that do not study.

Trying to hide the test like they did with quant q only makes the test less available to those without resources.
Just use the PSAT.
It is widely understood and has a lot of free support online.

#fakenews - Cheating was so widespread they had to change the entire process.

They changed the process because they wanted to "promote greater diversity that reflected the students in the district"
IOW, they were embarrassed by the low number of URM kids getting into TJ.
It's crazy that you think people forgot the circumstances surrounding the change in the admissions process.

https://virginiamercury.com/2024/02/20/supreme-court-wont-hear-thomas-jefferson-admissions-case/

That's not true. They changed the process to end the widespread cheating that resulted in only students from a few wealthy feeders getting selected into this program.

That is contrary to almost all the reporting at the time. The change was obviously about race.

There was the "reported" reason and there were the actual reasons, some of which were the same and some of which were different.

Not sure why you think you know better if you weren't paying any attention then.

I was at the hearings.
The change was quite clearly about race.
A lot of it was pro-black and pro-hispanic but a significant portion of it was anti-asian.

Increasing the number of URMs was one of the main reasons. Cheating was another - FCPS had wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the Cogat and has wisely refrained from targeting students who cheated on the TJ exam. Instead, they changed the tests.

Other reasons for the admissions changes were to change the culture of the school. Both cheating inside the school and to make it universally more attractive, to address the decline in interest from students of all demographics. They haven't really succeeded at the latter. Interest and application numbers have not increased - but at least they haven't decreased. The ongoing national negative publicity may also have affected these numbers.

Yup, the “race to nowhere” culture needed a reset.

So much less toxic now!

I don't know about toxic but it is much less stressful for the good students.

They're not really competing with 550 other5 students, they are really only competing with like 250 of them. The rest are sort of drifting along.

Since they stopped accepting the cheaters, things have calmed down. There's far less cheating. Kids even help each other now.

Kids always helped each other and TJ generally has more "rule followers" than the typical high school

Shame on you for disparaging the best and brightest fairfax had to offer to make yourself feel better.

[Anonymous]

The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Every student in FCPS can access Honors Algebra I and Honors Geometry online. Any student ending 8th grade without taking Honors Geometry online through FCPS or an equivalent program. Summer Geometry can be provided to students outside of FCPS for any student accepted to TJ. Any student that doesn’t meet this requirement before 9th grade will free up spots for the next kids on the list who have met the requirements.

If this was the case, all FCPS students that are applying to TJ should get the 0.5 bump on their GPA for taking an honors high school class (or a 1.0 bump for taking AP Pre-Calculus or higher level AP courses). This would allow the committee to include aptitude for higher levels of math in their holistic review for FCPS students (this doesn’t need to be a requirement for other counties).

If the concern is about equity and students from lower income households needing to provide child care for younger siblings and not being able to take a summer course, Fairfax County can provide that care through camps (which are already set up in most high FARMS middle schools and add elementary students).

This would allow the committee to find students for aptitude to take higher level courses. Students who aren’t able to keep up with online math courses won’t need to access the higher level AP math/science courses at TJ as they will not surpass what would be offered through local high schools.

Maybe we should just have a timed math test to separate the candidates based on an objective test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

It's a lot less toxic now that they stopped rewarding cheaters with admission.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

It's a lot less toxic now that they stopped rewarding cheaters with admission.

Studying is not cheating.
Test prep is not cheating.
Only cheating is cheating.

Some people think that anyone that tries harder than them is cheating.
Those people are setting their kids up for failure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

Equating spending $600 on test prep with "wealthy" is wild.

The notion that cheating is any worse at TJ than any other school is dubious.
The notion that cheating is any better now than 5 years ago is laughable.

Was cheating worse at TJ than other area high schools? I don't know but it's certainly plausible - cheating is rampant at high pressure schools and TJ was the highest pressure school. It is lower pressure now. Is cheating lower now? It's plausible.

I wouldn't say that equating $600 on test prep is wild, but I would agree that test prep to get into TJ starting in grade school and/or at Sunday School is wild.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The intense pressure and competition at TJ has resulted in widespread cheating for many years.

Articles from 2006 to 2023 about cheating at TJ:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2006/05/03/va-principal-issues-apology-for-remarks-span-classbankheadlinking-ethnicity-and-cheating-was-wrong-fairfax-leader-saysspan/01cfcf99-d02f-4c11-b68e-e4997cf6d972/
https://www.tjtoday.org/1613/opinion/one-question-pervades-classroom-teaching-and-school-activities/
https://www.tjtoday.org/4390/opinion/teachers-need-to-enforce-tj-honor-code/
https://www.tjtoday.org/19690/uncategorized/integrity-violation-lecture-reminds-students-of-the-cost-of-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/27956/uncategorized/midterms-week-breeding-grounds-for-rampant-cheating/
https://www.tjtoday.org/32413/opinion/stop-idolizing-elite-colleges/
https://www.tjtoday.org/36291/features/the-inside-of-integrity/

DCUM anecdote about widespread cheating from 2013:
https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/60/329043.page
"TJ parent here - At back to school night several of the teachers described the steps they take to prevent cheating. A science teacher said that they have learned there are so-called "tutors" who have large files of all the old tests given at TJ. So this year they are creating every test from scratch, with 4 completely different versions as the classes meet during 4 different time periods."

Interview with former TJ principal in 2006 (also discusses "gaming" the admissions test):
https://www.washingtonian.com/2006/09/01/thomas-jefferson-high-school-interview-with-principal-elizabeth-lodal/
"Unfortunately, T.J. has helped spawn a huge test-preparation industry in this region. Look in the newspapers—you’ll find test prep for both the SATs and for T.J.

Some parents start this T.J. prep early. Some local churches have Sunday-school classes focused on getting into T.J. that start in kindergarten and go through elementary school. Wealthy parents can spend $600 a pop to learn how to get in here.

Isn’t there something wrong with that?
Yes.

Why don’t you constantly change the exam so no one can game it?
The admissions office tries to do that."


"How pervasive is cheating?
Students tell me it’s more pervasive than adults know. It is a huge challenge for teachers and principals—not just here but at every school.

Given our student population, cheating techniques can be very sophisticated. We’ve tried to create an antidote via a robust ethics program. We bolster students offended by cheating and strengthen everyone’s will to resist it. We hold up ethical models and highlight positive examples.

When I got here, the first group of students to visit me were student leaders offended by the pervasiveness of cheating. They had drafted an honor code. The school eventually adopted that honor code, written by students. The student government is now investigating the creation of an honor council to help enforce and strengthen the honor code.

Our program Big Sibs matches every freshman with a “sibling”—an upper-level student who helps navigate the waters. Another initiative, Building a Better Community, or BBC, assists with programs about ethics. We feature ethics panels of highly respected students and adults who speak out against cheating."

It's a lot less toxic now that they stopped rewarding cheaters with admission.

Studying is not cheating.
Test prep is not cheating.
Only cheating is cheating.

Some people think that anyone that tries harder than them is cheating.
Those people are setting their kids up for failure.

I’ll agree that cheating isn’t the right word for test prep nor for the multi year planning that some families were doing of their kids’ activities and outside math classes with an intentional view on maximizing their odds of getting into TJ.

But the SB - and many in FCPS community - clearly did not think that was the intended atmosphere that was desired re: admissions. I agree. I don’t think that “failure” to devote extensive non-school hours to “studying” non-school material should put a kid at a disadvantage for admissions to TJ if they are otherwise in advanced math and doing great there.

I’m in favor of using math SOLs and giving preference to kids for being in at least Geometry in 8th as that is a path accessible to all kids in the county if they have the math aptitude for it. I would not give bonus points for doing Alg 2 because it’s not a path widely available in the county even for kids at AAP centers. On top of that I would let each normal MS pick 3 kids and each AAP center pick 4-5 kids that are true standouts and nominate them strongly to try to ensure the true outlier kids (vs just those that studied non-school stuff a lot) are captured.