Lottery data with June offer numbers is up

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yes, if you already have a sibling at Cooper or live lots closer (Brookland/Edgewood etc.), you might rank it over 2nd street. some ppl definitely fit these categories.

Definitely. Cooper is walkable for us, which is a huge deal when having also a kid in elementary and a kid in daycare.

Sure, there are several reasons why you might prefer Cooper (siblings, location, language) but people are responding to the PP who said that people were ranking Cooper first because they didn't think they had a shot at 2nd. People aren't saying that others should necessarily prefer 2nd over Cooper or that it's bad to rank Cooper higher. People are saying that you shouldn't rank Cooper higher based on your chances of getting a spot at 2nd. That's the part that is wrong.

Some people just don't grasp how the lottery works, it's true. Especially if they've been happy with their elementary school and haven't lotteried since PK3.

Unfortunate truth. It also happens with some choosing not to lottery at 5th grade because they are happy with ES and thinking they'll just do it for 6th.

I just lived this (have a 4th grader at a good EOTP school with a bad middle) and while I may have considered staying when I was young and foolish, it was not at all an option. Our entire cohort played the lottery. Middle school is too important and the chances of getting a better path in 5th is so much higher than waiting for 6th (bc of Latin, Basis, ITS and all of the deal and Hardy (and maybe others depending on your standards)) feeders.

We had a medium number and got a placement at a good charter and an offer from a Hardy feeder.

I find this topic of conversation so fascinating - both as a former educator and a parent of current upper elementary and middle schoolers. There are so many truths and angles to this discussion, but also a lot of fear, assumptions, and group-think that play in - it is almost impossible to have a completely objective view of the middle school conversation. Added to that that different kids do well in smaller/bigger programs, sports/clubs/theatre mean more to some families than others, and it quickly turns into a web that is hard to navigate.
I will add that a lot of the families I know who are making huge changes after 4th - either pulling their kids from school, or moving their whole family -- are doing so based on reputations from this site (or similar), things online, or bc of friends they know that have done the same. It will be interesting in the next few years as increasing numbers of families finish 8th grade at the DCPS middle schools that have formerly been written off as 'horrible' or 'not an option'. Elementary families will then have real voices to listen to, often with siblings still at the elementary school - that will describe how the middle school experience actually was. And maybe in the end of the day some of the assumptions will be confirmed, but what I am starting to see as we enter these years as that there are layers/groups of kids, activities, classes, and experiences at every school. Which can be said for all middle schools - if you read this forum both public, private, MD, and VA - middle and high school get tricky no matter where you are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:different poster. the “really good” elementary/“bad” IB middle combo is presumably one of the 3 Hill area middle schools.

This also describes huge areas in Shaw, Logan, Brookland, etc. It's a widespread problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yes, if you already have a sibling at Cooper or live lots closer (Brookland/Edgewood etc.), you might rank it over 2nd street. some ppl definitely fit these categories.

Definitely. Cooper is walkable for us, which is a huge deal when having also a kid in elementary and a kid in daycare.

Sure, there are several reasons why you might prefer Cooper (siblings, location, language) but people are responding to the PP who said that people were ranking Cooper first because they didn't think they had a shot at 2nd. People aren't saying that others should necessarily prefer 2nd over Cooper or that it's bad to rank Cooper higher. People are saying that you shouldn't rank Cooper higher based on your chances of getting a spot at 2nd. That's the part that is wrong.

Some people just don't grasp how the lottery works, it's true. Especially if they've been happy with their elementary school and haven't lotteried since PK3.

Unfortunate truth. It also happens with some choosing not to lottery at 5th grade because they are happy with ES and thinking they'll just do it for 6th.

I just lived this (have a 4th grader at a good EOTP school with a bad middle) and while I may have considered staying when I was young and foolish, it was not at all an option. Our entire cohort played the lottery. Middle school is too important and the chances of getting a better path in 5th is so much higher than waiting for 6th (bc of Latin, Basis, ITS and all of the deal and Hardy (and maybe others depending on your standards)) feeders.

We had a medium number and got a placement at a good charter and an offer from a Hardy feeder.

I find this topic of conversation so fascinating - both as a former educator and a parent of current upper elementary and middle schoolers. There are so many truths and angles to this discussion, but also a lot of fear, assumptions, and group-think that play in - it is almost impossible to have a completely objective view of the middle school conversation. Added to that that different kids do well in smaller/bigger programs, sports/clubs/theatre mean more to some families than others, and it quickly turns into a web that is hard to navigate.
I will add that a lot of the families I know who are making huge changes after 4th - either pulling their kids from school, or moving their whole family -- are doing so based on reputations from this site (or similar), things online, or bc of friends they know that have done the same. It will be interesting in the next few years as increasing numbers of families finish 8th grade at the DCPS middle schools that have formerly been written off as 'horrible' or 'not an option'. Elementary families will then have real voices to listen to, often with siblings still at the elementary school - that will describe how the middle school experience actually was. And maybe in the end of the day some of the assumptions will be confirmed, but what I am starting to see as we enter these years as that there are layers/groups of kids, activities, classes, and experiences at every school. Which can be said for all middle schools - if you read this forum both public, private, MD, and VA - middle and high school get tricky no matter where you are.

Im the PP you are referring to, and for me that choice was Cardozo. It was not a fear or assumption based decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yes, if you already have a sibling at Cooper or live lots closer (Brookland/Edgewood etc.), you might rank it over 2nd street. some ppl definitely fit these categories.

Definitely. Cooper is walkable for us, which is a huge deal when having also a kid in elementary and a kid in daycare.

Sure, there are several reasons why you might prefer Cooper (siblings, location, language) but people are responding to the PP who said that people were ranking Cooper first because they didn't think they had a shot at 2nd. People aren't saying that others should necessarily prefer 2nd over Cooper or that it's bad to rank Cooper higher. People are saying that you shouldn't rank Cooper higher based on your chances of getting a spot at 2nd. That's the part that is wrong.

Some people just don't grasp how the lottery works, it's true. Especially if they've been happy with their elementary school and haven't lotteried since PK3.

Unfortunate truth. It also happens with some choosing not to lottery at 5th grade because they are happy with ES and thinking they'll just do it for 6th.

I just lived this (have a 4th grader at a good EOTP school with a bad middle) and while I may have considered staying when I was young and foolish, it was not at all an option. Our entire cohort played the lottery. Middle school is too important and the chances of getting a better path in 5th is so much higher than waiting for 6th (bc of Latin, Basis, ITS and all of the deal and Hardy (and maybe others depending on your standards)) feeders.

We had a medium number and got a placement at a good charter and an offer from a Hardy feeder.

I find this topic of conversation so fascinating - both as a former educator and a parent of current upper elementary and middle schoolers. There are so many truths and angles to this discussion, but also a lot of fear, assumptions, and group-think that play in - it is almost impossible to have a completely objective view of the middle school conversation. Added to that that different kids do well in smaller/bigger programs, sports/clubs/theatre mean more to some families than others, and it quickly turns into a web that is hard to navigate.
I will add that a lot of the families I know who are making huge changes after 4th - either pulling their kids from school, or moving their whole family -- are doing so based on reputations from this site (or similar), things online, or bc of friends they know that have done the same. It will be interesting in the next few years as increasing numbers of families finish 8th grade at the DCPS middle schools that have formerly been written off as 'horrible' or 'not an option'. Elementary families will then have real voices to listen to, often with siblings still at the elementary school - that will describe how the middle school experience actually was. And maybe in the end of the day some of the assumptions will be confirmed, but what I am starting to see as we enter these years as that there are layers/groups of kids, activities, classes, and experiences at every school. Which can be said for all middle schools - if you read this forum both public, private, MD, and VA - middle and high school get tricky no matter where you are.

Stop trying to make Elliot Hine a thing. It's never going to be a good school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:EA at BASIS is going to be a disaster.

You said the quiet part out loud. Why do you assume that kids who are economically disadvantaged are dumb and/or can't apply themselves? Why do you assume they don't have or can't develop executive functioning? Some of these 10 and 11 year old kids have already dealt with more sh*t in their lives than you will ever know and they are still in the game fighting to succeed. EA preferences are designed precisely for this reason; to ensure kids who more than many others need a solid educational footing have access.

DP. My understanding of the Basis model is that it would take a lot of support at home to catch up academically and pass the tests. If the kids are coming in behind and Basis keeps its “up or out” approach, we’re gonna see a disproportionate number of EA kids dropping out.

Your understanding is wrong. The kids at the top of the class don't have parents all up in their stuff. They tend to be independent, self-starting learners. Kids who grow up in unstable environments and grow up quickly might tend to exhibit high level executive functioning beyond coddled peers whose parents sit next to them and do the work with them.

BASIS is a lottery school. A kid coming in through EA is not going to magically be at the top of the class. The myth of the miraculously prepared tough-luck kid is a myth.

But someone went through the lottery process. That absolutely takes parental or family involvement. As a teacher I’ve taught many bright kids who excelled and would be EA. This idea that parents aren’t involved or care about their kids education if they are eligible for EA is gross.

You clearly have no idea the sheer number of hours it takes to help a kid be successful at BASIS in the first couple years. I’m sure you saw kids be “successful” at their garbage DCPS. That’s absolutely not the same as BASIS.

What exactly are you doing and why does it take so long?

Most of the kids who are successful at BASIS have two parent households, with parents who are staying on top of their grades, perhaps helping them study, and providing extra support where needed, etc. Many students have tutors (tutoring is widespread at BASIS).

The idea that a typical EA kid, who is homeless or thrown into the foster care system or whose families are struggling enough to qualify for TANF or SNAP, is going to be successful at a school like BASIS is a feel-good fantasy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:EA at BASIS is going to be a disaster.

You said the quiet part out loud. Why do you assume that kids who are economically disadvantaged are dumb and/or can't apply themselves? Why do you assume they don't have or can't develop executive functioning? Some of these 10 and 11 year old kids have already dealt with more sh*t in their lives than you will ever know and they are still in the game fighting to succeed. EA preferences are designed precisely for this reason; to ensure kids who more than many others need a solid educational footing have access.

DP. My understanding of the Basis model is that it would take a lot of support at home to catch up academically and pass the tests. If the kids are coming in behind and Basis keeps its “up or out” approach, we’re gonna see a disproportionate number of EA kids dropping out.

Your understanding is wrong. The kids at the top of the class don't have parents all up in their stuff. They tend to be independent, self-starting learners. Kids who grow up in unstable environments and grow up quickly might tend to exhibit high level executive functioning beyond coddled peers whose parents sit next to them and do the work with them.

BASIS is a lottery school. A kid coming in through EA is not going to magically be at the top of the class. The myth of the miraculously prepared tough-luck kid is a myth.

But someone went through the lottery process. That absolutely takes parental or family involvement. As a teacher I’ve taught many bright kids who excelled and would be EA. This idea that parents aren’t involved or care about their kids education if they are eligible for EA is gross.

You clearly have no idea the sheer number of hours it takes to help a kid be successful at BASIS in the first couple years. I’m sure you saw kids be “successful” at their garbage DCPS. That’s absolutely not the same as BASIS.

What exactly are you doing and why does it take so long?

Most of the kids who are successful at BASIS have two parent households, with parents who are staying on top of their grades, perhaps helping them study, and providing extra support where needed, etc. Many students have tutors (tutoring is widespread at BASIS).

The idea that a typical EA kid, who is homeless or thrown into the foster care system or whose families are struggling enough to qualify for TANF or SNAP, is going to be successful at a school like BASIS is a feel-good fantasy.

Does a child from an EA-eligible household that seeks-out and enrolls into BASIS qualify as a "typical EA kid"? There's some degree of agency/ambition in that decision that is not equally distributed within any population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Quick glance as a ward 4 parent; Takoma and Whittier not offering one spot so far for PK3 is remarkable.

Shepherd hasn't offered one waitlist spot in any grade.

Shepherd feeds to Deal and JR. Not the same as Whittier and Takoma. It is pretty remarkable those two schools didn’t offer a waitlist spot to any PK3 yet.

Not really. Lots of families these days use ECE spots at their IB or any other schools. The real differentiator is upper elementary and percentages of IB families that stay thru upper elementary thru 4th.

Ward 3 families need to stop saying this. We're an upper elementary family leaving our EOTP IB this year ONLY because of the middle school feed. I would LOVE if DCs could stay through fifth at our elementary, but when lottery gold strikes, you have to take it. I'm really sad to leave our school and DCs will be devastated when they find out, but the reality is that there are many nice elementary schools in this city that feed into very less nice middle and high schools, and middle class families that can't afford private have to play the lottery and take the opportunity when it comes.

You are leaving just as Pp said.

Don't be dense. There's a big difference between using your IB pre-K as free daycare and deciding to stay for first, second, third grade. The ONLY "real differentiator" at many EOTP schools is the middle school feeder pattern. There are plenty of schools in DC, if you're there in second and leaving in fourth, it's because you feel like you HAVE to, not because you want to.

Sure but you are not the majority. The data says it all and the overwhelming majority of higher SES IB families at these poorly performing EOTP schools are not staying at their IB schools past K/1st. There is a big exodus and by 2nd, it’s a few families. Just look at the makeup of your 2nd, 3rd grade classes compared to ECE.

The one exception is Capitol Hill schools where majority do stay thru 4th at least.

Can you provide a link to this data?

It doesn't really exist. Audited enrollment numbers will give number of students by grade, number of students by race, and number of students by at-risk designation, but it doesn't give at-risk/race by grade. You can kind of get a sense of the PK3-2nd and 3rd-5th split looking at PARCC data totals by at-risk/race, but at individual grade levels the data is often suppressed.

I think PP may have literally meant "look." Not really a great basis for making sweeping generalizations.

I think the PK3-2nd vs. PARCC grade demographics tells you quite a bit.

Not knowing the distribution within in those grade bands limits its practical utility.

For example, at our IB 3rd-5th is about 60% economically disadvantaged. But working around data suppression (not possible at all schools), the actual distribution is 47% in 3rd, 64% in 4th, and 73% in 5th.

OK, so if PK3-2nd is 25% economically disadvantaged, that's a very different story from if it's 55% in terms of what's happening with attrition.

As far as I can tell, there are no schools where the spread is anywhere close to that wide though.

[Anonymous]

The economically disadvantaged kids at BASIS pass the PARCC at substantially lower rates (like everywhere), but the percentage of them in the middle school grades is the same as in grades 9 and 10. So either they're not leaving at higher rates, or the entering middle school classes got less low-income.

You're more likely to leave if you're struggling academically, but also if you have a good zoned middle school or private school option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Quick glance as a ward 4 parent; Takoma and Whittier not offering one spot so far for PK3 is remarkable.

Shepherd hasn't offered one waitlist spot in any grade.

Shepherd feeds to Deal and JR. Not the same as Whittier and Takoma. It is pretty remarkable those two schools didn’t offer a waitlist spot to any PK3 yet.

Not really. Lots of families these days use ECE spots at their IB or any other schools. The real differentiator is upper elementary and percentages of IB families that stay thru upper elementary thru 4th.

Ward 3 families need to stop saying this. We're an upper elementary family leaving our EOTP IB this year ONLY because of the middle school feed. I would LOVE if DCs could stay through fifth at our elementary, but when lottery gold strikes, you have to take it. I'm really sad to leave our school and DCs will be devastated when they find out, but the reality is that there are many nice elementary schools in this city that feed into very less nice middle and high schools, and middle class families that can't afford private have to play the lottery and take the opportunity when it comes.

You are leaving just as Pp said.

Don't be dense. There's a big difference between using your IB pre-K as free daycare and deciding to stay for first, second, third grade. The ONLY "real differentiator" at many EOTP schools is the middle school feeder pattern. There are plenty of schools in DC, if you're there in second and leaving in fourth, it's because you feel like you HAVE to, not because you want to.

Sure but you are not the majority. The data says it all and the overwhelming majority of higher SES IB families at these poorly performing EOTP schools are not staying at their IB schools past K/1st. There is a big exodus and by 2nd, it’s a few families. Just look at the makeup of your 2nd, 3rd grade classes compared to ECE.

The one exception is Capitol Hill schools where majority do stay thru 4th at least.

Can you provide a link to this data?

It doesn't really exist. Audited enrollment numbers will give number of students by grade, number of students by race, and number of students by at-risk designation, but it doesn't give at-risk/race by grade. You can kind of get a sense of the PK3-2nd and 3rd-5th split looking at PARCC data totals by at-risk/race, but at individual grade levels the data is often suppressed.

I think PP may have literally meant "look." Not really a great basis for making sweeping generalizations.

I think the PK3-2nd vs. PARCC grade demographics tells you quite a bit.

Not knowing the distribution within in those grade bands limits its practical utility.

For example, at our IB 3rd-5th is about 60% economically disadvantaged. But working around data suppression (not possible at all schools), the actual distribution is 47% in 3rd, 64% in 4th, and 73% in 5th.

Not really. If you want to know if there are high SES families which everyone knows is proxy for white in this town, just look at demographics.

20% at risk is the magic number. Anything above that and it’s going to affect academic performance in general so if you are 50% or 75%, you are way above that threshold.. Also, DC defines at risk in the extreme as homeless, SNAP, etc…. There are lots of lower, poor SES families who don’t fall in the at risk category.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Quick glance as a ward 4 parent; Takoma and Whittier not offering one spot so far for PK3 is remarkable.

Shepherd hasn't offered one waitlist spot in any grade.

Shepherd feeds to Deal and JR. Not the same as Whittier and Takoma. It is pretty remarkable those two schools didn’t offer a waitlist spot to any PK3 yet.

Not really. Lots of families these days use ECE spots at their IB or any other schools. The real differentiator is upper elementary and percentages of IB families that stay thru upper elementary thru 4th.

Ward 3 families need to stop saying this. We're an upper elementary family leaving our EOTP IB this year ONLY because of the middle school feed. I would LOVE if DCs could stay through fifth at our elementary, but when lottery gold strikes, you have to take it. I'm really sad to leave our school and DCs will be devastated when they find out, but the reality is that there are many nice elementary schools in this city that feed into very less nice middle and high schools, and middle class families that can't afford private have to play the lottery and take the opportunity when it comes.

You are leaving just as Pp said.

Don't be dense. There's a big difference between using your IB pre-K as free daycare and deciding to stay for first, second, third grade. The ONLY "real differentiator" at many EOTP schools is the middle school feeder pattern. There are plenty of schools in DC, if you're there in second and leaving in fourth, it's because you feel like you HAVE to, not because you want to.

Sure but you are not the majority. The data says it all and the overwhelming majority of higher SES IB families at these poorly performing EOTP schools are not staying at their IB schools past K/1st. There is a big exodus and by 2nd, it’s a few families. Just look at the makeup of your 2nd, 3rd grade classes compared to ECE.

The one exception is Capitol Hill schools where majority do stay thru 4th at least.

Can you provide a link to this data?

It doesn't really exist. Audited enrollment numbers will give number of students by grade, number of students by race, and number of students by at-risk designation, but it doesn't give at-risk/race by grade. You can kind of get a sense of the PK3-2nd and 3rd-5th split looking at PARCC data totals by at-risk/race, but at individual grade levels the data is often suppressed.

I think PP may have literally meant "look." Not really a great basis for making sweeping generalizations.

I think the PK3-2nd vs. PARCC grade demographics tells you quite a bit.

Not knowing the distribution within in those grade bands limits its practical utility.

For example, at our IB 3rd-5th is about 60% economically disadvantaged. But working around data suppression (not possible at all schools), the actual distribution is 47% in 3rd, 64% in 4th, and 73% in 5th.

OK, so if PK3-2nd is 25% economically disadvantaged, that's a very different story from if it's 55% in terms of what's happening with attrition.

As far as I can tell, there are no schools where the spread is anywhere close to that wide though.

I don't think anyone's put together those numbers, but there some with big shifts. John Lewis is 31% economically disadvantaged for PK-2nd to 46% for the PARCC grades, and over 30% white kids for PK-2nd and then under 7% for the PARCC grades. Probably even more dramatic if you were to break out ECE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yes, if you already have a sibling at Cooper or live lots closer (Brookland/Edgewood etc.), you might rank it over 2nd street. some ppl definitely fit these categories.

Definitely. Cooper is walkable for us, which is a huge deal when having also a kid in elementary and a kid in daycare.

Sure, there are several reasons why you might prefer Cooper (siblings, location, language) but people are responding to the PP who said that people were ranking Cooper first because they didn't think they had a shot at 2nd. People aren't saying that others should necessarily prefer 2nd over Cooper or that it's bad to rank Cooper higher. People are saying that you shouldn't rank Cooper higher based on your chances of getting a spot at 2nd. That's the part that is wrong.

Some people just don't grasp how the lottery works, it's true. Especially if they've been happy with their elementary school and haven't lotteried since PK3.

Unfortunate truth. It also happens with some choosing not to lottery at 5th grade because they are happy with ES and thinking they'll just do it for 6th.

I just lived this (have a 4th grader at a good EOTP school with a bad middle) and while I may have considered staying when I was young and foolish, it was not at all an option. Our entire cohort played the lottery. Middle school is too important and the chances of getting a better path in 5th is so much higher than waiting for 6th (bc of Latin, Basis, ITS and all of the deal and Hardy (and maybe others depending on your standards)) feeders.

We had a medium number and got a placement at a good charter and an offer from a Hardy feeder.

I find this topic of conversation so fascinating - both as a former educator and a parent of current upper elementary and middle schoolers. There are so many truths and angles to this discussion, but also a lot of fear, assumptions, and group-think that play in - it is almost impossible to have a completely objective view of the middle school conversation. Added to that that different kids do well in smaller/bigger programs, sports/clubs/theatre mean more to some families than others, and it quickly turns into a web that is hard to navigate.
I will add that a lot of the families I know who are making huge changes after 4th - either pulling their kids from school, or moving their whole family -- are doing so based on reputations from this site (or similar), things online, or bc of friends they know that have done the same. It will be interesting in the next few years as increasing numbers of families finish 8th grade at the DCPS middle schools that have formerly been written off as 'horrible' or 'not an option'. Elementary families will then have real voices to listen to, often with siblings still at the elementary school - that will describe how the middle school experience actually was. And maybe in the end of the day some of the assumptions will be confirmed, but what I am starting to see as we enter these years as that there are layers/groups of kids, activities, classes, and experiences at every school. Which can be said for all middle schools - if you read this forum both public, private, MD, and VA - middle and high school get tricky no matter where you are.

Stop trying to make Elliot Hine a thing. It's never going to be a good school.

Also worth noting - 10 years ago when many of us tween age parents started ECE/Elementary, there was the same 'never touch that school' reputation to many of the elementary schools parents are coming on here happy with and sad to leave in 4th/5th grade now. While elementary and middle are different beasts, I think keeping perspective re: all the changes that can happen in a school community in a short amount of time is a good thing. Which brings this back to the point of this thread - that some of these schools letting kids in and having short wait lists were 100+ waitlists/impossible to get into in the not to distant past.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yes, if you already have a sibling at Cooper or live lots closer (Brookland/Edgewood etc.), you might rank it over 2nd street. some ppl definitely fit these categories.

Definitely. Cooper is walkable for us, which is a huge deal when having also a kid in elementary and a kid in daycare.

Sure, there are several reasons why you might prefer Cooper (siblings, location, language) but people are responding to the PP who said that people were ranking Cooper first because they didn't think they had a shot at 2nd. People aren't saying that others should necessarily prefer 2nd over Cooper or that it's bad to rank Cooper higher. People are saying that you shouldn't rank Cooper higher based on your chances of getting a spot at 2nd. That's the part that is wrong.

Some people just don't grasp how the lottery works, it's true. Especially if they've been happy with their elementary school and haven't lotteried since PK3.

Unfortunate truth. It also happens with some choosing not to lottery at 5th grade because they are happy with ES and thinking they'll just do it for 6th.

I just lived this (have a 4th grader at a good EOTP school with a bad middle) and while I may have considered staying when I was young and foolish, it was not at all an option. Our entire cohort played the lottery. Middle school is too important and the chances of getting a better path in 5th is so much higher than waiting for 6th (bc of Latin, Basis, ITS and all of the deal and Hardy (and maybe others depending on your standards)) feeders.

We had a medium number and got a placement at a good charter and an offer from a Hardy feeder.

I find this topic of conversation so fascinating - both as a former educator and a parent of current upper elementary and middle schoolers. There are so many truths and angles to this discussion, but also a lot of fear, assumptions, and group-think that play in - it is almost impossible to have a completely objective view of the middle school conversation. Added to that that different kids do well in smaller/bigger programs, sports/clubs/theatre mean more to some families than others, and it quickly turns into a web that is hard to navigate.
I will add that a lot of the families I know who are making huge changes after 4th - either pulling their kids from school, or moving their whole family -- are doing so based on reputations from this site (or similar), things online, or bc of friends they know that have done the same. It will be interesting in the next few years as increasing numbers of families finish 8th grade at the DCPS middle schools that have formerly been written off as 'horrible' or 'not an option'. Elementary families will then have real voices to listen to, often with siblings still at the elementary school - that will describe how the middle school experience actually was. And maybe in the end of the day some of the assumptions will be confirmed, but what I am starting to see as we enter these years as that there are layers/groups of kids, activities, classes, and experiences at every school. Which can be said for all middle schools - if you read this forum both public, private, MD, and VA - middle and high school get tricky no matter where you are.

Stop trying to make Elliot Hine a thing. It's never going to be a good school.

Also worth noting - 10 years ago when many of us tween age parents started ECE/Elementary, there was the same 'never touch that school' reputation to many of the elementary schools parents are coming on here happy with and sad to leave in 4th/5th grade now. While elementary and middle are different beasts, I think keeping perspective re: all the changes that can happen in a school community in a short amount of time is a good thing. Which brings this back to the point of this thread - that some of these schools letting kids in and having short wait lists were 100+ waitlists/impossible to get into in the not to distant past.

This, 1000x. Fighting off the closure of Garrison, for example, was not even that long ago, and now it's doing really well. When I first moved here, even Hardy was a tough sell for many parents. Yes, it takes a long time to improve a middle school, but change can and does happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Quick glance as a ward 4 parent; Takoma and Whittier not offering one spot so far for PK3 is remarkable.

Shepherd hasn't offered one waitlist spot in any grade.

Shepherd feeds to Deal and JR. Not the same as Whittier and Takoma. It is pretty remarkable those two schools didn’t offer a waitlist spot to any PK3 yet.

Not really. Lots of families these days use ECE spots at their IB or any other schools. The real differentiator is upper elementary and percentages of IB families that stay thru upper elementary thru 4th.

Ward 3 families need to stop saying this. We're an upper elementary family leaving our EOTP IB this year ONLY because of the middle school feed. I would LOVE if DCs could stay through fifth at our elementary, but when lottery gold strikes, you have to take it. I'm really sad to leave our school and DCs will be devastated when they find out, but the reality is that there are many nice elementary schools in this city that feed into very less nice middle and high schools, and middle class families that can't afford private have to play the lottery and take the opportunity when it comes.

You are leaving just as Pp said.

Don't be dense. There's a big difference between using your IB pre-K as free daycare and deciding to stay for first, second, third grade. The ONLY "real differentiator" at many EOTP schools is the middle school feeder pattern. There are plenty of schools in DC, if you're there in second and leaving in fourth, it's because you feel like you HAVE to, not because you want to.

Sure but you are not the majority. The data says it all and the overwhelming majority of higher SES IB families at these poorly performing EOTP schools are not staying at their IB schools past K/1st. There is a big exodus and by 2nd, it’s a few families. Just look at the makeup of your 2nd, 3rd grade classes compared to ECE.

The one exception is Capitol Hill schools where majority do stay thru 4th at least.

Can you provide a link to this data?

It doesn't really exist. Audited enrollment numbers will give number of students by grade, number of students by race, and number of students by at-risk designation, but it doesn't give at-risk/race by grade. You can kind of get a sense of the PK3-2nd and 3rd-5th split looking at PARCC data totals by at-risk/race, but at individual grade levels the data is often suppressed.

I think PP may have literally meant "look." Not really a great basis for making sweeping generalizations.

I think the PK3-2nd vs. PARCC grade demographics tells you quite a bit.

Not knowing the distribution within in those grade bands limits its practical utility.

For example, at our IB 3rd-5th is about 60% economically disadvantaged. But working around data suppression (not possible at all schools), the actual distribution is 47% in 3rd, 64% in 4th, and 73% in 5th.

Not really. If you want to know if there are high SES families which everyone knows is proxy for white in this town, just look at demographics.

20% at risk is the magic number. Anything above that and it’s going to affect academic performance in general so if you are 50% or 75%, you are way above that threshold.. Also, DC defines at risk in the extreme as homeless, SNAP, etc…. There are lots of lower, poor SES families who don’t fall in the at risk category.

What are you basing this 20% threshold on?

The list of EotP elementary schools that fit this criteria is very short: Ross, Brent, AppleTree LP, O-A, Stokes Brookland, Shepherd, LAMB, MV C8, SWS, DC Wildflower, Maury, YY, Peabody, LEARN, Lee Brookland, L-T, Bancroft.

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Anonymous wrote:Quick glance as a ward 4 parent; Takoma and Whittier not offering one spot so far for PK3 is remarkable.

Shepherd hasn't offered one waitlist spot in any grade.

Shepherd feeds to Deal and JR. Not the same as Whittier and Takoma. It is pretty remarkable those two schools didn’t offer a waitlist spot to any PK3 yet.

Not really. Lots of families these days use ECE spots at their IB or any other schools. The real differentiator is upper elementary and percentages of IB families that stay thru upper elementary thru 4th.

Ward 3 families need to stop saying this. We're an upper elementary family leaving our EOTP IB this year ONLY because of the middle school feed. I would LOVE if DCs could stay through fifth at our elementary, but when lottery gold strikes, you have to take it. I'm really sad to leave our school and DCs will be devastated when they find out, but the reality is that there are many nice elementary schools in this city that feed into very less nice middle and high schools, and middle class families that can't afford private have to play the lottery and take the opportunity when it comes.

You are leaving just as Pp said.

Don't be dense. There's a big difference between using your IB pre-K as free daycare and deciding to stay for first, second, third grade. The ONLY "real differentiator" at many EOTP schools is the middle school feeder pattern. There are plenty of schools in DC, if you're there in second and leaving in fourth, it's because you feel like you HAVE to, not because you want to.

Sure but you are not the majority. The data says it all and the overwhelming majority of higher SES IB families at these poorly performing EOTP schools are not staying at their IB schools past K/1st. There is a big exodus and by 2nd, it’s a few families. Just look at the makeup of your 2nd, 3rd grade classes compared to ECE.

The one exception is Capitol Hill schools where majority do stay thru 4th at least.

Can you provide a link to this data?

It doesn't really exist. Audited enrollment numbers will give number of students by grade, number of students by race, and number of students by at-risk designation, but it doesn't give at-risk/race by grade. You can kind of get a sense of the PK3-2nd and 3rd-5th split looking at PARCC data totals by at-risk/race, but at individual grade levels the data is often suppressed.

I think PP may have literally meant "look." Not really a great basis for making sweeping generalizations.

I think the PK3-2nd vs. PARCC grade demographics tells you quite a bit.

Not knowing the distribution within in those grade bands limits its practical utility.

For example, at our IB 3rd-5th is about 60% economically disadvantaged. But working around data suppression (not possible at all schools), the actual distribution is 47% in 3rd, 64% in 4th, and 73% in 5th.

Not really. If you want to know if there are high SES families which everyone knows is proxy for white in this town, just look at demographics.

20% at risk is the magic number. Anything above that and it’s going to affect academic performance in general so if you are 50% or 75%, you are way above that threshold.. Also, DC defines at risk in the extreme as homeless, SNAP, etc…. There are lots of lower, poor SES families who don’t fall in the at risk category.

What are you basing this 20% threshold on?

The list of EotP elementary schools that fit this criteria is very short: Ross, Brent, AppleTree LP, O-A, Stokes Brookland, Shepherd, LAMB, MV C8, SWS, DC Wildflower, Maury, YY, Peabody, LEARN, Lee Brookland, L-T, Bancroft.

There have been studies looking at the at risk percentages in a classroom and how it affects the performance of different groups of low and high performers. BTW FCPS also conducted their own study some years ago in their school system and also came up with 20%.

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Anonymous wrote:yes, if you already have a sibling at Cooper or live lots closer (Brookland/Edgewood etc.), you might rank it over 2nd street. some ppl definitely fit these categories.

Definitely. Cooper is walkable for us, which is a huge deal when having also a kid in elementary and a kid in daycare.

Sure, there are several reasons why you might prefer Cooper (siblings, location, language) but people are responding to the PP who said that people were ranking Cooper first because they didn't think they had a shot at 2nd. People aren't saying that others should necessarily prefer 2nd over Cooper or that it's bad to rank Cooper higher. People are saying that you shouldn't rank Cooper higher based on your chances of getting a spot at 2nd. That's the part that is wrong.

Some people just don't grasp how the lottery works, it's true. Especially if they've been happy with their elementary school and haven't lotteried since PK3.

Unfortunate truth. It also happens with some choosing not to lottery at 5th grade because they are happy with ES and thinking they'll just do it for 6th.

I just lived this (have a 4th grader at a good EOTP school with a bad middle) and while I may have considered staying when I was young and foolish, it was not at all an option. Our entire cohort played the lottery. Middle school is too important and the chances of getting a better path in 5th is so much higher than waiting for 6th (bc of Latin, Basis, ITS and all of the deal and Hardy (and maybe others depending on your standards)) feeders.

We had a medium number and got a placement at a good charter and an offer from a Hardy feeder.

I find this topic of conversation so fascinating - both as a former educator and a parent of current upper elementary and middle schoolers. There are so many truths and angles to this discussion, but also a lot of fear, assumptions, and group-think that play in - it is almost impossible to have a completely objective view of the middle school conversation. Added to that that different kids do well in smaller/bigger programs, sports/clubs/theatre mean more to some families than others, and it quickly turns into a web that is hard to navigate.
I will add that a lot of the families I know who are making huge changes after 4th - either pulling their kids from school, or moving their whole family -- are doing so based on reputations from this site (or similar), things online, or bc of friends they know that have done the same. It will be interesting in the next few years as increasing numbers of families finish 8th grade at the DCPS middle schools that have formerly been written off as 'horrible' or 'not an option'. Elementary families will then have real voices to listen to, often with siblings still at the elementary school - that will describe how the middle school experience actually was. And maybe in the end of the day some of the assumptions will be confirmed, but what I am starting to see as we enter these years as that there are layers/groups of kids, activities, classes, and experiences at every school. Which can be said for all middle schools - if you read this forum both public, private, MD, and VA - middle and high school get tricky no matter where you are.

Im the PP you are referring to, and for me that choice was Cardozo. It was not a fear or assumption based decision.

NP and I would never send my kid to Cardozo so you absolutely did not have a choice.