If you have a mentally ill spouse

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably the reason a mentally ill spouse does this is that they feel guilty they were such a pain to deal with or something when they finally come out of their irresponsibility. It's another reflection on themselves that they project to their partner.

In my experience and my observation of an extended family with unmanaged mental disorders: they do NOT feel shame or remorse or guilt. At all.

That’s a myth that that’s why they mistreat and abuse others close to them. From shame or guilt or awareness of their issues.

There is little awareness. By the time they are adults they have so many deeply ingrained maladaptive “coping mechanisms,” such as gaslighting, deflecting, making personal attacks, stonewalling, temper tantruming, they have convinced themselves that they are always right and those who inquire are always wrong and the bad guys.

There is no guilt. It’s black and white, you are wrong, they are never wrong. It’s your fault- even their rages, breaking things, tempers, it’s never their fault. You are nuts, so are your parents, they are not.

I was speaking to the ADHD person who is saying that the people who tried to help them were actually hurting them, and they should have just left them alone. It's a complete Un acknowledgement of spouses of the mentally ill as individuals with their own strengths and own agenda to live the life they want to live and likely agreed to. Finally, that person said they realized the help was from the spouse's perspective, but it's like he/she makes it about being selfish rather than helping. Yes, it is from their perspective because it's from them and they are individuals, not mirrors of what you want. Yes, it is actual helping. That's where the disconnect is. Just because it doesn't feel good to the mentally ill spouse or actually help them, doesn't make it "wrong" or "selfish". It's for each person to accept feedback and then make the best use for themselves. Labeling helpers are hurters is a defense mechanism.

[Anonymous]

Other observation is men don’t accept their diagnoses and treatment plan, and more women do, and out in some work to improve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably the reason a mentally ill spouse does this is that they feel guilty they were such a pain to deal with or something when they finally come out of their irresponsibility. It's another reflection on themselves that they project to their partner.

In my experience and my observation of an extended family with unmanaged mental disorders: they do NOT feel shame or remorse or guilt. At all.

That’s a myth that that’s why they mistreat and abuse others close to them. From shame or guilt or awareness of their issues.

There is little awareness. By the time they are adults they have so many deeply ingrained maladaptive “coping mechanisms,” such as gaslighting, deflecting, making personal attacks, stonewalling, temper tantruming, they have convinced themselves that they are always right and those who inquire are always wrong and the bad guys.

There is no guilt. It’s black and white, you are wrong, they are never wrong. It’s your fault- even their rages, breaking things, tempers, it’s never their fault. You are nuts, so are your parents, they are not.

I was speaking to the ADHD person who is saying that the people who tried to help them were actually hurting them, and they should have just left them alone. It's a complete Un acknowledgement of spouses of the mentally ill as individuals with their own strengths and own agenda to live the life they want to live and likely agreed to. Finally, that person said they realized the help was from the spouse's perspective, but it's like he/she makes it about being selfish rather than helping. Yes, it is from their perspective because it's from them and they are individuals, not mirrors of what you want. Yes, it is actual helping. That's where the disconnect is. Just because it doesn't feel good to the mentally ill spouse or actually help them, doesn't make it "wrong" or "selfish". It's for each person to accept feedback and then make the best use for themselves. Labeling helpers are hurters is a defense mechanism.

I agree.

But it takes a unicorn adult patient to put in the self reflection, effort and time to improve.

Most inflicted just write off the helpers and doctors, hit the Restart lesson, and go find new punching bags to fool. Rinse and repeat.

That said I work with one former alcoholic with adhd who is 24/7 improving for the last ten years. Exercise, medicine, therapy, no drinks ever, part of MIT studies, forthright about how to best work with him (mornings are best! Send reminders!), and that he doesn’t drink but you can.

[Anonymous]

The adhd person is probably right that these people weren't helpful to them at that time. I don't think that's wrong for them to believe this if they are improving themselves now and weren't then. It's the blame of their help that is at issue. You can find something unhelpful and also understand that someone is coming from a place of caring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t you let Adhd person speak for themselves. They are blaming the people in their lives who have helped them and pointed out flaws so they didn’t have to experience hardship. That is a problem in of itself. If you can’t understand it just be glad you haven’t gone through life with a mentally ill spouse. People who try to help their mentally ill spouses are saints to me. I will stick up for them when someone says they were wrong to not just leave.

And I did give advice. I told them to live more simply and manage their own behavior accepting themselves and trying to grow. And to stop judging what others say and just using their words how best helps them. Not scapegoating or expecting everyone to just give you a pep talk when you made a big mistake that affected their lives.

I originally responded to a poster who said she wanted to help and I said that the best help is encouragement because people who struggle often ARE working incredibly hard.

You then continued to step on my initial point which is that a lot of help is Presley just overwhelmed. You haven’t listened to anything I’ve said and instead insisted that I’ve not done enough or done things in the right way.

What you are actually doing is trying to claim for yourself, the helper, the work that people who struggle have to put in. We are emotional burn victims and the pain doesn’t got away, it takes time, trial and error to figure what is our unique strategy for managing.

Yes, we can behave badly at times. That’s on us. You communicate that and you choose is to either leave or be patient. Your choice. But you can’t fix us, we fix ourselves. In the way that works for us. Maybe it’s good enough for you, maybe it isn’t.

That's ridiculous. You are not an island. People have the right to call out bad behavior and have the right to try to help their spouse. No good spouse would not help their spouse if they had cancer waiting until they helped themselves on this. No good spouse would just leave for one offense. Also people don't just get better on their own. They often need help. It doesn't work that way.

You need to forgive those who "overwhelmed" you and tried to help you. They were just caring about you.

Again, you are projecting your own story and assumptions onto me. I’ve never blamed anyone. Only I am stating that the care I was offered didn’t translate into the help I needed.

In my case, the care and help was actually enabling and overwhelming. It was very well-intended and offered in love, but it wasn’t what I needed. And therefore, I had to detach from those relationships. Including my marriage.

I’m sorry for the situation that you are in that is causing you to push back on me so hard.

[Anonymous]

This statement from you. They are still helping. It's just not helping you at that time. Just because it didn't help you at that time, doesn't mean they weren't helping through their own actions. It may have been misguided but this is how they tried to help you.

"At some point, you are not helping you are trying to control another person with your expectations. Or you are enabling that person to expect support when they need to experience the consequences and pain in order to actually learn for themselves."

[Anonymous]

Can’t help someone who doesn’t want help or won’t help themselves.

Detach and move on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This statement from you. They are still helping. It's just not helping you at that time. Just because it didn't help you at that time, doesn't mean they weren't helping through their own actions. It may have been misguided but this is how they tried to help you.

"At some point, you are not helping you are trying to control another person with your expectations. Or you are enabling that person to expect support when they need to experience the consequences and pain in order to actually learn for themselves."

Is this about a gold star? You need acknowledgement for your “help”?

Which is exactly the point I made earlier…people are mostly “helping” in order to make themselves feel better rather than actually offering the person what they need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The adhd person is probably right that these people weren't helpful to them at that time. I don't think that's wrong for them to believe this if they are improving themselves now and weren't then. It's the blame of their help that is at issue. You can find something unhelpful and also understand that someone is coming from a place of caring.

Stating the facts isn’t blame.

I can be grateful for the help offered AND also acknowledge see that it was ultimately enabling. Good intentions don’t equal good outcomes.

That’s life. The gift of my brain and experience is that I can accept and embrace that and move forward in a stronger, healthier place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This statement from you. They are still helping. It's just not helping you at that time. Just because it didn't help you at that time, doesn't mean they weren't helping through their own actions. It may have been misguided but this is how they tried to help you.

"At some point, you are not helping you are trying to control another person with your expectations. Or you are enabling that person to expect support when they need to experience the consequences and pain in order to actually learn for themselves."

Is this about a gold star? You need acknowledgement for your “help”?

Which is exactly the point I made earlier…people are mostly “helping” in order to make themselves feel better rather than actually offering the person what they need.

it's usually a mixture of both. They aren't you. It's your responsibility to tell someone whether the help is appreciated or not and your responsibility to not make mistakes and hurt them. I don't know where you are coming from, but people who have mental illness often want things that are not good for them and aren't capable of taking care of themselves. So it's typical for people who are not mentally ill to want to help them away from things that are harmful. It may be scaffolding (not enabling) but it also helping. Have you heard of DBT? It's having two opposing thoughts at the same time that are both true. Try it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This statement from you. They are still helping. It's just not helping you at that time. Just because it didn't help you at that time, doesn't mean they weren't helping through their own actions. It may have been misguided but this is how they tried to help you.

"At some point, you are not helping you are trying to control another person with your expectations. Or you are enabling that person to expect support when they need to experience the consequences and pain in order to actually learn for themselves."

Is this about a gold star? You need acknowledgement for your “help”?

Which is exactly the point I made earlier…people are mostly “helping” in order to make themselves feel better rather than actually offering the person what they need.

Lol.

Most people are trying to help the mentally disordered family member they live with in order to “feel better?”

Literally?

Damn right. It’s hell on earth living with an insane person. They have to get professional help, do the work or get out.

[Anonymous]

PE stop the “person helping me” semantics.

Conveniently, no one knows what ADHd person is talking about.

Is it your mom or SO signed you up for a neuropsych test, listened to the results, found you books and a top psychologist and psychiatrist who was taking new patients?

Or did your mom or SO try more lists to get your organized, and apps to keep you on time, and career paths for your fortes?

Or is the help something like, in your mind, pestering you, reminding you, putting signs up in the house (mask up!, take garbage out in Tuesdays!, turn off lights at night!).

Whatever PP. Clearly you like to try to argue in riddles, which is annoying and quickly apparent to all types of people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The adhd person is probably right that these people weren't helpful to them at that time. I don't think that's wrong for them to believe this if they are improving themselves now and weren't then. It's the blame of their help that is at issue. You can find something unhelpful and also understand that someone is coming from a place of caring.

Yes NT people can empathize and realize that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why don’t you let Adhd person speak for themselves. They are blaming the people in their lives who have helped them and pointed out flaws so they didn’t have to experience hardship. That is a problem in of itself. If you can’t understand it just be glad you haven’t gone through life with a mentally ill spouse. People who try to help their mentally ill spouses are saints to me. I will stick up for them when someone says they were wrong to not just leave.

And I did give advice. I told them to live more simply and manage their own behavior accepting themselves and trying to grow. And to stop judging what others say and just using their words how best helps them. Not scapegoating or expecting everyone to just give you a pep talk when you made a big mistake that affected their lives.

I originally responded to a poster who said she wanted to help and I said that the best help is encouragement because people who struggle often ARE working incredibly hard.

You then continued to step on my initial point which is that a lot of help is Presley just overwhelmed. You haven’t listened to anything I’ve said and instead insisted that I’ve not done enough or done things in the right way.

What you are actually doing is trying to claim for yourself, the helper, the work that people who struggle have to put in. We are emotional burn victims and the pain doesn’t got away, it takes time, trial and error to figure what is our unique strategy for managing.

Yes, we can behave badly at times. That’s on us. You communicate that and you choose is to either leave or be patient. Your choice. But you can’t fix us, we fix ourselves. In the way that works for us. Maybe it’s good enough for you, maybe it isn’t.

That's ridiculous. You are not an island. People have the right to call out bad behavior and have the right to try to help their spouse. No good spouse would not help their spouse if they had cancer waiting until they helped themselves on this. No good spouse would just leave for one offense. Also people don't just get better on their own. They often need help. It doesn't work that way.

You need to forgive those who "overwhelmed" you and tried to help you. They were just caring about you.

Again, you are projecting your own story and assumptions onto me. I’ve never blamed anyone. Only I am stating that the care I was offered didn’t translate into the help I needed.

In my case, the care and help was actually enabling and overwhelming. It was very well-intended and offered in love, but it wasn’t what I needed. And therefore, I had to detach from those relationships. Including my marriage.

I’m sorry for the situation that you are in that is causing you to push back on me so hard.

The care, help and enabling I rec’d wasn’t the care and help I needed.

But leaving those relationships and responsibilities worked well.

Ok then. Yes walking away is often better for everyone- spouse, kids, yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably the reason a mentally ill spouse does this is that they feel guilty they were such a pain to deal with or something when they finally come out of their irresponsibility. It's another reflection on themselves that they project to their partner.

In my experience and my observation of an extended family with unmanaged mental disorders: they do NOT feel shame or remorse or guilt. At all.

That’s a myth that that’s why they mistreat and abuse others close to them. From shame or guilt or awareness of their issues.

There is little awareness. By the time they are adults they have so many deeply ingrained maladaptive “coping mechanisms,” such as gaslighting, deflecting, making personal attacks, stonewalling, temper tantruming, they have convinced themselves that they are always right and those who inquire are always wrong and the bad guys.

There is no guilt. It’s black and white, you are wrong, they are never wrong. It’s your fault- even their rages, breaking things, tempers, it’s never their fault. You are nuts, so are your parents, they are not.

I agree with this, AND I think it’s both — they have a lot of defenses bc they are crippled with shame and guilt inside. It’s really quite sad. They lack a healthy sense of self.