What happened to average kids? Where are they?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A FCPS math teacher (not a teacher at our school) told us quietly that the top math kids all are being tutored, either at home by a STEM parent, or at AoPS, Kumon, Mathnasium, or RSM. We were very grateful she told us. She also said that math textbooks were replaced by less effective electronic materials, and encouraged us to at least buy appropriate math workbooks or download math worksheets for our DC to practice with at home.

I don’t know the others, but I would not consider AOPS as tutoring. It is more extension work. When I think of tutoring it is learning the material before it is officially taught in school so the kid looks super smart for picking it up so “quickly”

I agree. AOPS math is not tutoring. It is just more in depth and challenging work. It’s for kids like our DS where math is way too easy. It is definitely not the program for kids who are struggling in math or kids who need tutoring.

If the schools could provide appropriate rigor, depth, and challenge for these kids, they would not need AOPS.

Yes, it's tutoring. Maybe in another eight or ten years, you'll realize that.

The parents that push tutoring on their kids (bot of course, would never admit it) are doing their kids a disservice because their first (any job!) job will not have a tutor.

The highest paying jobs have tutors. They are called mentors, trainers, or coaches.

Lebron James has tutors.

Larry Page had tutors.

+1. When I started as a lawyer, I had tutors. Of course, they’re called mentors, and you have to find them yourself, but I would never have succeeded in my career as fast as I did without them.

I’d say people who have tutors in their younger days know what it is like to work with people like this to make their careers easier. People who are used to grinding will continue to grind and do everything the hard way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everybody appears to be above average in elementary school. Just give it time .

Not true. By 3rd grade, if your school does small groups at all for differentiation, you can clearly see who is in the top group, bottom group. The kids know. Also a generalization but true that majority kids in top math group are a lot of the same kids in top reading group, etc….

There’s always going to be gifted, above average, average, and below average kids. If your kid is average then he/she is right in the middle of the bell shape curve and that’s OK. Emphasize what you think are their great qualities, etc…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The OP wasn't about sports, but the thread has evolved that way. For the parents of kids who just aren't very athletic, why don't you hang up the towel with sports and go full bore on academics and arts? What is this notion of well-roundedness that says it must include a sport? If Larla is good at chess and watercolor painting, nobody cares that she isn't formally enrolled in a sport.

The OP commented later that this post came about because of an incident involving sports.

[Anonymous]

Average kids are out there, they just tend to be ignored.

[Anonymous]

Wait until middle school. My older two are in 8th grade and at this point, most kids seem pretty average. Much more so than in elementary school..

I’d guess 3/4 of the kids we know (including one of my own kids) do not play any sport at a serious level- club/travel etc. Probably half have dropped all sports (gradual decline during middle school years) and no longer play an organized sport at all. There are some academic standouts, to be sure, but most of the kids are in a similar range. Many kids who were “standouts” in sports and/or academics in elementary school have fizzled and seem average now. Most kids are still in music/arts programs of some sort (band, orchestra, or chorus) but not many stand out there either.

The middle school years do tend to be odd, with kids’ changing interests and abilities. I do think things will change in high school, and many kids will find their niche eventually. However, I know very few kids in 8th grade who seem “exceptional” in any area.

UMC neighborhood/UMC public school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been thinking about this lately as it concerns my kids. One of them seems to be very bright and above average but it having some behavior issues. I wonder if it is I push him too much to try himself at different things. In the last couple of days I'm starting to question my actions. I get reminded of a realization I had a decade or so ago about my siblings and I. One of my siblings used to be into dancing every since she was in school and despite a degree in economics, she is now doing, yes, dancing. She has her own kids' studio, she loves it, and she is wildly popular with kids and their parents. My other sibling used to do something that kind of entertained us--she would find a bookshelf/cabinetry corner and set it up with mini furniture and mini dolls, like really miniature ones. Lo and behold, she is a successful interior designer now, despite her degree in economics

With myself, I am more conflicted. I was also bright and good at ...studying...and so what? I am smart, have a humanities phd, but don't have a job because I prefer to stay with little kids for now. Maybe soon I'll get into the workforce. But my family's examples somehow have long shocked me into a realization that kids' abilities and passions can be visible very early on, and perhaps they should be nurtured indeed, so that kids get to enjoy childhood and young adulthood, instead of trying to do everything at once and getting stressed because of it. Perhaps one or max two talents should be priority for all kids. And I can definitely already see in my kids what they are good at, passionate about. It kind of already helped me feel less stressed about how they will be doing in school. I'm not going to expect excellence in every subject.

+1 I don't think this happens all the time, but for a lot of kids, if you look, yes, there are things that really light them up and those should be encouraged. I do think pushing kids to do all the expected things regardless of passion can make it harder for kids to find those authentic interests. Kids need time to be bored and figure out what they want to do with their time. Not enough kids are allowed that.

I think my kids are bright but not super above average, in part because both have ADHD. But they each had a clear interest from early childhood. My son loves numbers and data. His favorite books were always big almanacs and anything with a lot of data visualizations, his walls are covered in maps. His best classes were always math. I tried to push a bit to do things like AoPS but that he resisted, I think mainly because the ADHD once he was done coping with school he just didn't have the bandwidth to do more after school. He's now majoring in a data science type of major with a 3.9 GPA. Says he still hasn't had a hard math class. He didn't have the overall profile to be competitive for a T30 college but that's fine since we couldn't have afforded that anyway! But, he's at a good college and having a great experience there.

DD is all about the outdoors. She's been fascinated by bugs and reptiles and wanted nothing but to be exploring outside pretty much since she could express an interest in anything. The only classes she liked as a small child were at the nature center. We really leaned into that with her with lots of time hiking, going to nature centers, finding camps that focused on it. All her MS-HS science projects (which she LOVED doing) were on water and soil issues. She is majoring in environmental science and has spent the last couple summers working at a nature education camp. Going to a small college where ES is a big focus.

FWIW, on the sports thing, DS played rec soccer and occasional baseball through ES-MS just because it was fun to play with friends. He plays golf occasionally with friends because his grandfather taught him. He runs for fitness. DD refused all sports until late ES when she decided she'd like to try something and decided on fencing because it was an individual sport and not something other kids would have been doing a long time. She really liked it and benefited a lot from learning to cope with the challenge of competition. But other things took over in HS (band and more time on homework). She also runs for fitness.

Our job as parents is to help support our kids to grow into who they are meant to be. Not to manufacture what we think Harvard wants to see.

Separate point... someone mentioned nursing as an awful job. Nursing was my sister's early childhood spark. I don't know where she tuned into that but as early as 7-8 years old she wanted to be a nurse. It was always part of our games. She was a candy striper as soon as it was allowed and she spent as much time as she could at the hospital. People tried to push her to be a doctor but she'd had enough exposure to the field to understand the differences and know nursing was what she wanted. Nursing degree, ICU specialty, then a masters as a clinical nurse specialist. Now works for a large hospital system in a role where she develops and oversees training and does research on best practices for patient care. Prior to that she was a teacher in a nursing education program and is working on a doctorate. Nursing is a wide and varied field. I had no idea how many paths there are. How sad it would have been if my parents had told her nursing was unacceptable and she must do something else.

i love the part where you pretend this isn't a humble brag

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wait until middle school. My older two are in 8th grade and at this point, most kids seem pretty average. Much more so than in elementary school..

I’d guess 3/4 of the kids we know (including one of my own kids) do not play any sport at a serious level- club/travel etc. Probably half have dropped all sports (gradual decline during middle school years) and no longer play an organized sport at all. There are some academic standouts, to be sure, but most of the kids are in a similar range. Many kids who were “standouts” in sports and/or academics in elementary school have fizzled and seem average now. Most kids are still in music/arts programs of some sort (band, orchestra, or chorus) but not many stand out there either.

The middle school years do tend to be odd, with kids’ changing interests and abilities. I do think things will change in high school, and many kids will find their niche eventually. However, I know very few kids in 8th grade who seem “exceptional” in any area.

UMC neighborhood/UMC public school

This person is dropping truth bombs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been thinking about this lately as it concerns my kids. One of them seems to be very bright and above average but it having some behavior issues. I wonder if it is I push him too much to try himself at different things. In the last couple of days I'm starting to question my actions. I get reminded of a realization I had a decade or so ago about my siblings and I. One of my siblings used to be into dancing every since she was in school and despite a degree in economics, she is now doing, yes, dancing. She has her own kids' studio, she loves it, and she is wildly popular with kids and their parents. My other sibling used to do something that kind of entertained us--she would find a bookshelf/cabinetry corner and set it up with mini furniture and mini dolls, like really miniature ones. Lo and behold, she is a successful interior designer now, despite her degree in economics

With myself, I am more conflicted. I was also bright and good at ...studying...and so what? I am smart, have a humanities phd, but don't have a job because I prefer to stay with little kids for now. Maybe soon I'll get into the workforce. But my family's examples somehow have long shocked me into a realization that kids' abilities and passions can be visible very early on, and perhaps they should be nurtured indeed, so that kids get to enjoy childhood and young adulthood, instead of trying to do everything at once and getting stressed because of it. Perhaps one or max two talents should be priority for all kids. And I can definitely already see in my kids what they are good at, passionate about. It kind of already helped me feel less stressed about how they will be doing in school. I'm not going to expect excellence in every subject.

+1 I don't think this happens all the time, but for a lot of kids, if you look, yes, there are things that really light them up and those should be encouraged. I do think pushing kids to do all the expected things regardless of passion can make it harder for kids to find those authentic interests. Kids need time to be bored and figure out what they want to do with their time. Not enough kids are allowed that.

I think my kids are bright but not super above average, in part because both have ADHD. But they each had a clear interest from early childhood. My son loves numbers and data. His favorite books were always big almanacs and anything with a lot of data visualizations, his walls are covered in maps. His best classes were always math. I tried to push a bit to do things like AoPS but that he resisted, I think mainly because the ADHD once he was done coping with school he just didn't have the bandwidth to do more after school. He's now majoring in a data science type of major with a 3.9 GPA. Says he still hasn't had a hard math class. He didn't have the overall profile to be competitive for a T30 college but that's fine since we couldn't have afforded that anyway! But, he's at a good college and having a great experience there.

DD is all about the outdoors. She's been fascinated by bugs and reptiles and wanted nothing but to be exploring outside pretty much since she could express an interest in anything. The only classes she liked as a small child were at the nature center. We really leaned into that with her with lots of time hiking, going to nature centers, finding camps that focused on it. All her MS-HS science projects (which she LOVED doing) were on water and soil issues. She is majoring in environmental science and has spent the last couple summers working at a nature education camp. Going to a small college where ES is a big focus.

FWIW, on the sports thing, DS played rec soccer and occasional baseball through ES-MS just because it was fun to play with friends. He plays golf occasionally with friends because his grandfather taught him. He runs for fitness. DD refused all sports until late ES when she decided she'd like to try something and decided on fencing because it was an individual sport and not something other kids would have been doing a long time. She really liked it and benefited a lot from learning to cope with the challenge of competition. But other things took over in HS (band and more time on homework). She also runs for fitness.

Our job as parents is to help support our kids to grow into who they are meant to be. Not to manufacture what we think Harvard wants to see.

Separate point... someone mentioned nursing as an awful job. Nursing was my sister's early childhood spark. I don't know where she tuned into that but as early as 7-8 years old she wanted to be a nurse. It was always part of our games. She was a candy striper as soon as it was allowed and she spent as much time as she could at the hospital. People tried to push her to be a doctor but she'd had enough exposure to the field to understand the differences and know nursing was what she wanted. Nursing degree, ICU specialty, then a masters as a clinical nurse specialist. Now works for a large hospital system in a role where she develops and oversees training and does research on best practices for patient care. Prior to that she was a teacher in a nursing education program and is working on a doctorate. Nursing is a wide and varied field. I had no idea how many paths there are. How sad it would have been if my parents had told her nursing was unacceptable and she must do something else.

i love the part where you pretend this isn't a humble brag

I didn’t read the drivel just scanned it but the woman seems off

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been thinking about this lately as it concerns my kids. One of them seems to be very bright and above average but it having some behavior issues. I wonder if it is I push him too much to try himself at different things. In the last couple of days I'm starting to question my actions. I get reminded of a realization I had a decade or so ago about my siblings and I. One of my siblings used to be into dancing every since she was in school and despite a degree in economics, she is now doing, yes, dancing. She has her own kids' studio, she loves it, and she is wildly popular with kids and their parents. My other sibling used to do something that kind of entertained us--she would find a bookshelf/cabinetry corner and set it up with mini furniture and mini dolls, like really miniature ones. Lo and behold, she is a successful interior designer now, despite her degree in economics

With myself, I am more conflicted. I was also bright and good at ...studying...and so what? I am smart, have a humanities phd, but don't have a job because I prefer to stay with little kids for now. Maybe soon I'll get into the workforce. But my family's examples somehow have long shocked me into a realization that kids' abilities and passions can be visible very early on, and perhaps they should be nurtured indeed, so that kids get to enjoy childhood and young adulthood, instead of trying to do everything at once and getting stressed because of it. Perhaps one or max two talents should be priority for all kids. And I can definitely already see in my kids what they are good at, passionate about. It kind of already helped me feel less stressed about how they will be doing in school. I'm not going to expect excellence in every subject.

+1 I don't think this happens all the time, but for a lot of kids, if you look, yes, there are things that really light them up and those should be encouraged. I do think pushing kids to do all the expected things regardless of passion can make it harder for kids to find those authentic interests. Kids need time to be bored and figure out what they want to do with their time. Not enough kids are allowed that.

I think my kids are bright but not super above average, in part because both have ADHD. But they each had a clear interest from early childhood. My son loves numbers and data. His favorite books were always big almanacs and anything with a lot of data visualizations, his walls are covered in maps. His best classes were always math. I tried to push a bit to do things like AoPS but that he resisted, I think mainly because the ADHD once he was done coping with school he just didn't have the bandwidth to do more after school. He's now majoring in a data science type of major with a 3.9 GPA. Says he still hasn't had a hard math class. He didn't have the overall profile to be competitive for a T30 college but that's fine since we couldn't have afforded that anyway! But, he's at a good college and having a great experience there.

DD is all about the outdoors. She's been fascinated by bugs and reptiles and wanted nothing but to be exploring outside pretty much since she could express an interest in anything. The only classes she liked as a small child were at the nature center. We really leaned into that with her with lots of time hiking, going to nature centers, finding camps that focused on it. All her MS-HS science projects (which she LOVED doing) were on water and soil issues. She is majoring in environmental science and has spent the last couple summers working at a nature education camp. Going to a small college where ES is a big focus.

FWIW, on the sports thing, DS played rec soccer and occasional baseball through ES-MS just because it was fun to play with friends. He plays golf occasionally with friends because his grandfather taught him. He runs for fitness. DD refused all sports until late ES when she decided she'd like to try something and decided on fencing because it was an individual sport and not something other kids would have been doing a long time. She really liked it and benefited a lot from learning to cope with the challenge of competition. But other things took over in HS (band and more time on homework). She also runs for fitness.

Our job as parents is to help support our kids to grow into who they are meant to be. Not to manufacture what we think Harvard wants to see.

Separate point... someone mentioned nursing as an awful job. Nursing was my sister's early childhood spark. I don't know where she tuned into that but as early as 7-8 years old she wanted to be a nurse. It was always part of our games. She was a candy striper as soon as it was allowed and she spent as much time as she could at the hospital. People tried to push her to be a doctor but she'd had enough exposure to the field to understand the differences and know nursing was what she wanted. Nursing degree, ICU specialty, then a masters as a clinical nurse specialist. Now works for a large hospital system in a role where she develops and oversees training and does research on best practices for patient care. Prior to that she was a teacher in a nursing education program and is working on a doctorate. Nursing is a wide and varied field. I had no idea how many paths there are. How sad it would have been if my parents had told her nursing was unacceptable and she must do something else.

i love the part where you pretend this isn't a humble brag

NP. I don’t see this as a humble brag at all.

[Anonymous]

My youngest is average. Straight A's in 4th grade but not a great athlete or musician and I suspect as the word gets harder, his grades will drop proportionately. I definitely worry about him compared to his two older siblings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s so hard. I hate hearing my ten year old say he is too old to try a new sport, but I hate even more than he is right.

What??

I started taking ballet lessons at 28. No, I wasn't going to be a prima ballerina, but I could have fun, use my body, and learn something. Isn't that the point??

I’m sorry but he’s right! My son is 14 years old and he cannot start on a sport now because every other kid has already been doing it for 10 years and since there are no other kids starting off, he would be the worst kid by far. There are no beginners and that makes it very hard for anybody wanting to start off. for example, my son can’t start on football right now, because everybody else is much more experience. I’m talking county rec teams and forget about high school football , there’s just no room for him on the team.

Yes 14 is too old unless he’s an athletic freak and that could possibly happen in football or basketball but 10 is certainly not too old to try many sports

Remember The Blind Side. It could happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s so hard. I hate hearing my ten year old say he is too old to try a new sport, but I hate even more than he is right.

What??

I started taking ballet lessons at 28. No, I wasn't going to be a prima ballerina, but I could have fun, use my body, and learn something. Isn't that the point??

I’m sorry but he’s right! My son is 14 years old and he cannot start on a sport now because every other kid has already been doing it for 10 years and since there are no other kids starting off, he would be the worst kid by far. There are no beginners and that makes it very hard for anybody wanting to start off. for example, my son can’t start on football right now, because everybody else is much more experience. I’m talking county rec teams and forget about high school football , there’s just no room for him on the team.

Yes 14 is too old unless he’s an athletic freak and that could possibly happen in football or basketball but 10 is certainly not too old to try many sports

Remember The Blind Side. It could happen.

I have weirdly good hand eye coordination and athleticism that one of my children inherited. Im not a unicorn and disagree with the PPP poster's opinion. Athleticism, fitness, intelligence, and some talent can equal "club team since 6" in most sports. You learn the rules, you watch some tape, and show up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here- I appreciate everyone’s responses. I know most kids and people are average, but some kids are ahead developmentally or better coordinated, or did start sports at a younger age. I felt bad when my kid was told that he sucks at everything. Which isn’t true, because he is extremely kind and empathetic. He is my youngest, and I didn’t see the kindness and empathy in my older kids as much as I see in him. To be told that he sucks at everything, because he is not the best at basketball, soccer, baseball etc.. is just rude and unfair. But as a kid, he does ask, what am I good at? Do I really suck at everything? He is only 8.

Yes we did move to the best school district, and in hindsight might not have been the best decision.

Don’t put him in so many activities. He wouldn’t feel that way if he didn’t have so many competitions at this age. Just play together in the yard or park and compliment him often. He cares more about what you think at that age than anyone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here- I appreciate everyone’s responses. I know most kids and people are average, but some kids are ahead developmentally or better coordinated, or did start sports at a younger age. I felt bad when my kid was told that he sucks at everything. Which isn’t true, because he is extremely kind and empathetic. He is my youngest, and I didn’t see the kindness and empathy in my older kids as much as I see in him. To be told that he sucks at everything, because he is not the best at basketball, soccer, baseball etc.. is just rude and unfair. But as a kid, he does ask, what am I good at? Do I really suck at everything? He is only 8.

Yes we did move to the best school district, and in hindsight might not have been the best decision.

Don’t put him in so many activities. He wouldn’t feel that way if he didn’t have so many competitions at this age. Just play together in the yard or park and compliment him often. He cares more about what you think at that age than anyone else.

He isn’t in many activities. He only does Tae Kwondo. He plays basketball and soccer with friends at home and at school during recess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wait until middle school. My older two are in 8th grade and at this point, most kids seem pretty average. Much more so than in elementary school..

I’d guess 3/4 of the kids we know (including one of my own kids) do not play any sport at a serious level- club/travel etc. Probably half have dropped all sports (gradual decline during middle school years) and no longer play an organized sport at all. There are some academic standouts, to be sure, but most of the kids are in a similar range. Many kids who were “standouts” in sports and/or academics in elementary school have fizzled and seem average now. Most kids are still in music/arts programs of some sort (band, orchestra, or chorus) but not many stand out there either.

The middle school years do tend to be odd, with kids’ changing interests and abilities. I do think things will change in high school, and many kids will find their niche eventually. However, I know very few kids in 8th grade who seem “exceptional” in any area.

UMC neighborhood/UMC public school

Study after study shows that about 70% of children who play organized sports in elementary school stop it by middle school or high school. Burnout is very real and I suspect that number will increase given how much earlier organized sports are played now and how intense and busy everything has recently become.