Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is this being pushed at Madison of all places? Is the new principal a true believer in SBG or does she just think she’ll be rewarded if she helps “close a gap”?

I think it may have something to do with the way principals are assessed, but there is also a whole industry around this: conferences & training, opportunities for travel, that’s why I think there is an incentive for principals to constantly change things which ultimately takes away from a teacher’s ability to focus on teaching and providing feedback to students because they are always being asked to do more stuff. Teachers have no work/life balance because of this.

The focus needs to be on classroom instruction, not trying out every new pedagogical fad and burdening teachers.

[Anonymous]

"The focus needs to be on classroom instruction, not trying out every new pedagogical fad and burdening teachers."

Just remember, the admin is on record with the idea that subject matter content "doesn't matter." Can you imagine any legit Educator promoting this ? And keeping their job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Initial studies show that the achievement gap is reduced which is quite remarkable, so less As and less Fs and more Bs, Cs, and Ds. Some school districts in fact no longer use grades at all and instead grade with language describing the level of mastery attained.

And how many kids were in these studies? Was there an objective way of evaluating the achievement gap other than the grade they received using skills-based grading? I know that my child tells me that class is less interesting and no one does the work anymore, specifically when it comes to something the kids were supposed to be prepared to discuss, but no one bothered since it doesn't count. Kids regularly show up to honors and AP classes and fail the quizzes because they don't count. Part of the problem with skills-based grading is that it teaches kids that they don't have to do the work.

I'd like to see SOL scores and compare that to before and after skills-based grading.

Like most equity efforts, this is just a method to dedicate more of the teachers time and grading leniency to failing students and leave self sufficient students to fend for themselves while also removing rewards for their self sufficiency. Equity is always about replacing poor parenting and ignoring everyone else.

I also feel this is all due to the great school ratings but maybe that’s off. If you have a special needs student or a low income student, why wouldn’t you care more about how that area of great schools ranks compared to the state and national average more than how it compares to other students in the school?

I think it's also a way for principals to close the achievement gap so that all students have equal outcomes. Easier to just get rid of Fs without actually having to do the work of teaching the kids making Fs. Have less kids making As to close the gap. A way to make administration look like they are doing an amazing job with equity.

Why are your kids NOT making A's on the assessments? Are you saying that is the teacher's fault?

As for kids not getting F's -- that happens when they actually show what they know on the assessments.

The assessments aren't "high stakes" -- kids get multiple chances to show what they know. In math, for instance, there are multiple practice assignments, and the a final skills assessement in Skill X. Then a later "cumulative assessment" covering skills X, Y, and Z. So, multiple opportunities to show and be graded on skill X (as well as skill Y, and skill Z). That benefits not just the poor kids/lower performers who might have gotten an F on Skill X in the past, but it should also benefit the quick-to-learn kids who show "mastery" the first time they are assessed on Skill X.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Initial studies show that the achievement gap is reduced which is quite remarkable, so less As and less Fs and more Bs, Cs, and Ds. Some school districts in fact no longer use grades at all and instead grade with language describing the level of mastery attained.

And how many kids were in these studies? Was there an objective way of evaluating the achievement gap other than the grade they received using skills-based grading? I know that my child tells me that class is less interesting and no one does the work anymore, specifically when it comes to something the kids were supposed to be prepared to discuss, but no one bothered since it doesn't count. Kids regularly show up to honors and AP classes and fail the quizzes because they don't count. Part of the problem with skills-based grading is that it teaches kids that they don't have to do the work.

I'd like to see SOL scores and compare that to before and after skills-based grading.

Like most equity efforts, this is just a method to dedicate more of the teachers time and grading leniency to failing students and leave self sufficient students to fend for themselves while also removing rewards for their self sufficiency. Equity is always about replacing poor parenting and ignoring everyone else.

I also feel this is all due to the great school ratings but maybe that’s off. If you have a special needs student or a low income student, why wouldn’t you care more about how that area of great schools ranks compared to the state and national average more than how it compares to other students in the school?

I think it's also a way for principals to close the achievement gap so that all students have equal outcomes. Easier to just get rid of Fs without actually having to do the work of teaching the kids making Fs. Have less kids making As to close the gap. A way to make administration look like they are doing an amazing job with equity.

Why are your kids NOT making A's on the assessments? Are you saying that is the teacher's fault?

As for kids not getting F's -- that happens when they actually show what they know on the assessments.

The assessments aren't "high stakes" -- kids get multiple chances to show what they know. In math, for instance, there are multiple practice assignments, and the a final skills assessement in Skill X. Then a later "cumulative assessment" covering skills X, Y, and Z. So, multiple opportunities to show and be graded on skill X (as well as skill Y, and skill Z). That benefits not just the poor kids/lower performers who might have gotten an F on Skill X in the past, but it should also benefit the quick-to-learn kids who show "mastery" the first time they are assessed on Skill X.

But the multiple practice assignments don’t count. I would say the majority of the kids don’t do the work when it doesn’t count. It’s really almost impossible to have a conversation to define SBG because it’s so confusing. Everyone on this thread has it a little wrong and a little right. Then every class is doing it differently. For some classes this does end up being high stakes. For ex. Math all the skills are getting replaced then for English, assessments aren’t getting replaced at all. Everything worked fine before SBG. This is just stupid.

What I want to know: what were the grades on quizzes before SBG and what are the grades now when they don’t count. Also what were the grades overall last year compared to the grades at the end of this year. And while we are at it, a student survey to determine if SBG has an impact on a student’s mental health.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Initial studies show that the achievement gap is reduced which is quite remarkable, so less As and less Fs and more Bs, Cs, and Ds. Some school districts in fact no longer use grades at all and instead grade with language describing the level of mastery attained.

And how many kids were in these studies? Was there an objective way of evaluating the achievement gap other than the grade they received using skills-based grading? I know that my child tells me that class is less interesting and no one does the work anymore, specifically when it comes to something the kids were supposed to be prepared to discuss, but no one bothered since it doesn't count. Kids regularly show up to honors and AP classes and fail the quizzes because they don't count. Part of the problem with skills-based grading is that it teaches kids that they don't have to do the work.

I'd like to see SOL scores and compare that to before and after skills-based grading.

Like most equity efforts, this is just a method to dedicate more of the teachers time and grading leniency to failing students and leave self sufficient students to fend for themselves while also removing rewards for their self sufficiency. Equity is always about replacing poor parenting and ignoring everyone else.

I also feel this is all due to the great school ratings but maybe that’s off. If you have a special needs student or a low income student, why wouldn’t you care more about how that area of great schools ranks compared to the state and national average more than how it compares to other students in the school?

I think it's also a way for principals to close the achievement gap so that all students have equal outcomes. Easier to just get rid of Fs without actually having to do the work of teaching the kids making Fs. Have less kids making As to close the gap. A way to make administration look like they are doing an amazing job with equity.

Why are your kids NOT making A's on the assessments? Are you saying that is the teacher's fault?

As for kids not getting F's -- that happens when they actually show what they know on the assessments.

The assessments aren't "high stakes" -- kids get multiple chances to show what they know. In math, for instance, there are multiple practice assignments, and the a final skills assessement in Skill X. Then a later "cumulative assessment" covering skills X, Y, and Z. So, multiple opportunities to show and be graded on skill X (as well as skill Y, and skill Z). That benefits not just the poor kids/lower performers who might have gotten an F on Skill X in the past, but it should also benefit the quick-to-learn kids who show "mastery" the first time they are assessed on Skill X.

But the multiple practice assignments don’t count. I would say the majority of the kids don’t do the work when it doesn’t count. It’s really almost impossible to have a conversation to define SBG because it’s so confusing. Everyone on this thread has it a little wrong and a little right. Then every class is doing it differently. For some classes this does end up being high stakes. For ex. Math all the skills are getting replaced then for English, assessments aren’t getting replaced at all. Everything worked fine before SBG. This is just stupid.

What I want to know: what were the grades on quizzes before SBG and what are the grades now when they don’t count. Also what were the grades overall last year compared to the grades at the end of this year. And while we are at it, a student survey to determine if SBG has an impact on a student’s mental health.

I agree that humans in general are lazy (or optimistically "efficient"). But, somehow, the policies or teaching practices of some teachers in math and science DO get the kids to do the practice work or actively work on the concepts IN class. Because, I'm sure my kid would do as little as possible... and yet he's really, truly learning hard concepts in both math and science classes. You can't just zone out for several weeks and then get an "A" on the stoichiometry assessment in chemistry.

I don't think it matters what the grades on assignments or quizzes that don't count are now vs. last year. The REAL question, if you believe that SBG has been detrimental to student learning, -- the REAL question is whether achievement on tests (standardized like AP or SOL, or tests on specific units, or final grades) are any different than previous years when SBG was not used. That is the real question. The question is whether kids end up understanding the same material or developing the same skills over the course of the year.

I don't know what the answer is on that --- probably Madison doesn't know yet either. If there is a difference, that would be a legitimate reason to make adjustments. I guess that's where I differ from some. As far as I can tell, my kid is still learning a lot and doing well, so I can't point to SBG as a problem.

[Anonymous]

Why are your kids NOT making A's on the assessments? Are you saying that is the teacher's fault?

As for kids not getting F's -- that happens when they actually show what they know on the assessments.

The assessments aren't "high stakes" -- kids get multiple chances to show what they know. In math, for instance, there are multiple practice assignments, and the a final skills assessement in Skill X. Then a later "cumulative assessment" covering skills X, Y, and Z. So, multiple opportunities to show and be graded on skill X (as well as skill Y, and skill Z). That benefits not just the poor kids/lower performers who might have gotten an F on Skill X in the past, but it should also benefit the quick-to-learn kids who show "mastery" the first time they are assessed on Skill X.

But the multiple practice assignments don’t count. I would say the majority of the kids don’t do the work when it doesn’t count. It’s really almost impossible to have a conversation to define SBG because it’s so confusing. Everyone on this thread has it a little wrong and a little right. Then every class is doing it differently. For some classes this does end up being high stakes. For ex. Math all the skills are getting replaced then for English, assessments aren’t getting replaced at all. Everything worked fine before SBG. This is just stupid.

What I want to know: what were the grades on quizzes before SBG and what are the grades now when they don’t count. Also what were the grades overall last year compared to the grades at the end of this year. And while we are at it, a student survey to determine if SBG has an impact on a student’s mental health.

I would also like to see how grades overall compare from last year to this year. If they are the same, then it is just individual kids struggling and and not a system wide issue. As to why kids aren’t getting As, at least in my child’s class they have to get 100% on each test to get an A. In the past, when it was out of 100, small errors could be made and still receive an A or A-. Now there can be no mistakes, even if you get the right answer, it must also be in correct format and reasoning. That is a lot of pressure to be perfect on nearly every test. Since any mistake gets you a minimum of a B, and two will you get you a C. My child also has had several As erased by Bs or Cs on subsequent tests for the same skill.

[Anonymous]

The difference I’m seeing from last year and this one is that previously students could earn a 10 or 20 percent grade bump from doing the homework- now, the homework, quizzes, and other assignments such as labs don’t count. Also there was the opportunity for retakes on tests/assessments. That is gone. So all the pressure is on the one assessment, which are somehow broken down into 5 grading skills. This is resulting in pressure to be perfect on that one day of testing. Overall it is more difficult to get an A than it was before. Madison thinks it is the leader and at the forefront of grading - but those on the outside don’t know how flawed the system is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My biggest issue is that some assignments are not for grading and others aren't and often it's too difficult to tell which ones are for grading and often the kids don't do the not for grading work and then bomb the for grading ones. They should be able to allow for some retakes a year to replace a couple of low grades as well as make certain assignments count but to a lesser degree. This was how it was when my child started this school. Other than the not for grading assignments, I don't understand skills-based grading and why it would be better or worse.

Parenting problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The grading at Madison is a disorganized mess this year and the principal knows that. Each teacher has their own version of skills based grading.

I’m not sure the principal does know it. Seems like Madison is doubling down on this next year. Is there any hope at all of stopping this? I plan to vote straight Republican for the next school board elections in the hopes that eventually they replace Gatehouse officials who ok’d this. But that is years away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The difference I’m seeing from last year and this one is that previously students could earn a 10 or 20 percent grade bump from doing the homework- now, the homework, quizzes, and other assignments such as labs don’t count. Also there was the opportunity for retakes on tests/assessments. That is gone. So all the pressure is on the one assessment, which are somehow broken down into 5 grading skills. This is resulting in pressure to be perfect on that one day of testing. Overall it is more difficult to get an A than it was before. Madison thinks it is the leader and at the forefront of grading - but those on the outside don’t know how flawed the system is.

But there's NOT just one chance to be assessed on a skill! That is the core of SBG! It's all about giving kids multiple opportunities to show what they know, and not penalize them if they didn't master the skill in October, but they figured it out by December. That's the essence of SBG...as long as you show the skill at some point before the end of the year...after multiple graded opportunities to show mastery, you won't be penalized for not understanding it faster. It's meant to take the "timing" element out of grades.

Does it matter if Suzy understood quadratic equations 5 on the first test opportunity, and Bob took a little longer, but still understood it fully sometime during the course? SBG policies say that the timing of mastery doesn't matter if both end up at the same place in the end.

[Anonymous]

Why are your kids NOT making A's on the assessments? Are you saying that is the teacher's fault?

Here is one reason from a student that posted earlier: Madison did do away with + and - for assignments. So you also have a "shaky foundation." A B- paper is completely different from a B+ paper, but now there is no longer that distinction. I am a student, and I find it really frustrating that inaccurate representations of my skill level are being put into the gradebook.

As for kids not getting F's -- that happens when they actually show what they know on the assessments.

Why do you think the kids making Ds are learning more? Has the curriculum changed? Has the teaching changed? The only thing that has changed is the grading system. Prove to me the gap is being closed because these kids are learning more.

To all the parents that think it's no big deal to no longer count practice work and your kids can learn about attendance and deadlines later: This sounds like privilege to me. When I talk to people of color and immigrants, they do not talk about education this way. They say things like, "Education is the most important thing." "This time is critical and it goes by fast."

I'm a teacher and very familiar with the boy that likes to chill in class and do his work in study hall, later or not at all. They hold everyone else in the class back because they constantly have to be redirected. SBG just helps to cultivate more students like this. Everything may work out for them later, but that class time is critical for the students trying to learn.

I was at a school where a similar equity driven policy was put into place. Teachers left. The parents who cared about education went private or moved. Test scores went down. About 4 years into it, the principal was pushed out and retired. Four years is too late for my kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pick your battles. Some us us (and our kids) are doing fine with SBG. Not everyone thinks Madison has gone to hell in a handbasket. It's different. But not doomsday.

It sounds like you have a laid back kid who is happy getting by. I have one of those too. But my other kid that is especially driven is finding the grading process, particularly the lack of distinction between a b+ and a b- stressful and unfair. But it does remind me of the real world, where the less driven workers still end up getting paid (often) the same as the folks who go all out. So maybe this is a good lesson to learn early on, why put in a ton of effort for little gain.

No these kids happy to get by are going to end up at a fulfillment center at Amazon if they are lucky.

You’re both imbeciles. My kid is a straight A student in multiple APs. Don’t worry about us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a sad situation, another historically good Fairfax County school being dragged down by educational experimentation. Apparently for the purpose of inflating the grades of those at the bottom by ignoring missed assignments, and suppressing the grades of those at the top that work hard. I suppose for the purpose of creating the appearance of a large mediocre middle, with no winners and no losers. But once real life hits, many will likely be losers, and consider their education from a supposedly “good school” in Fairfax County to be a complete failure.

High school is the time that students learn the work habits that are required to succeed in college, and life in general. Madison students will sadly forgo the important lesson that hard work/preparation leads to good grades, and individual success. Why study hard to master Newtonian mechanics in physics, when you can make it up later, hopefully, in electricity and magnetism to erase your poor effort in Newtonian mechanics. (These are two totally different topics covered in the 1st year Physics). Even if the student pulls this off, the chance to learn Newtonian mechanics (the basis for all mechanical engineering) in high school will be lost forever.

The workforce today is global. That means our students will have to compete with those from China, Japan, S.Korea, etc. for future jobs, even in US-based companies. And I can guarantee you they are not doing this nonsense in China, they would simply laugh in your face for even suggesting it.

Who is the bigger winner from all this ? Its Amazon (and the like), because they will have plenty of “drones” competing for their low-wage jobs due to their failed public education. But some of us had higher hopes for the future, and are paying ever increasing high property taxes to support, what is supposed to be, a “good” school district.

It’s just sad.

I’m so embarrassed for you,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Initial studies show that the achievement gap is reduced which is quite remarkable, so less As and less Fs and more Bs, Cs, and Ds. Some school districts in fact no longer use grades at all and instead grade with language describing the level of mastery attained.

And how many kids were in these studies? Was there an objective way of evaluating the achievement gap other than the grade they received using skills-based grading? I know that my child tells me that class is less interesting and no one does the work anymore, specifically when it comes to something the kids were supposed to be prepared to discuss, but no one bothered since it doesn't count. Kids regularly show up to honors and AP classes and fail the quizzes because they don't count. Part of the problem with skills-based grading is that it teaches kids that they don't have to do the work.

I'd like to see SOL scores and compare that to before and after skills-based grading.

Like most equity efforts, this is just a method to dedicate more of the teachers time and grading leniency to failing students and leave self sufficient students to fend for themselves while also removing rewards for their self sufficiency. Equity is always about replacing poor parenting and ignoring everyone else.

I also feel this is all due to the great school ratings but maybe that’s off. If you have a special needs student or a low income student, why wouldn’t you care more about how that area of great schools ranks compared to the state and national average more than how it compares to other students in the school?

I think it's also a way for principals to close the achievement gap so that all students have equal outcomes. Easier to just get rid of Fs without actually having to do the work of teaching the kids making Fs. Have less kids making As to close the gap. A way to make administration look like they are doing an amazing job with equity.

Why are your kids NOT making A's on the assessments? Are you saying that is the teacher's fault?

As for kids not getting F's -- that happens when they actually show what they know on the assessments.

The assessments aren't "high stakes" -- kids get multiple chances to show what they know. In math, for instance, there are multiple practice assignments, and the a final skills assessement in Skill X. Then a later "cumulative assessment" covering skills X, Y, and Z. So, multiple opportunities to show and be graded on skill X (as well as skill Y, and skill Z). That benefits not just the poor kids/lower performers who might have gotten an F on Skill X in the past, but it should also benefit the quick-to-learn kids who show "mastery" the first time they are assessed on Skill X.

But the multiple practice assignments don’t count. I would say the majority of the kids don’t do the work when it doesn’t count. It’s really almost impossible to have a conversation to define SBG because it’s so confusing. Everyone on this thread has it a little wrong and a little right. Then every class is doing it differently. For some classes this does end up being high stakes. For ex. Math all the skills are getting replaced then for English, assessments aren’t getting replaced at all. Everything worked fine before SBG. This is just stupid.

What I want to know: what were the grades on quizzes before SBG and what are the grades now when they don’t count. Also what were the grades overall last year compared to the grades at the end of this year. And while we are at it, a student survey to determine if SBG has an impact on a student’s mental health.

So DO THE WORK. Excuses, excuses.

[Anonymous]

Those who want to do the ungraded practice assignments can still do them! And if a student isn't doing well on graded assessments, SHOULD do the ungraded practice.

Those who can do well on the graded assessments without doing the ungraded practice have proven that they know the concepts and don't need to do every extra practice work.

I don't think this is a bad thing. It gives options for everyone to choose their adventure.