Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Those who want to do the ungraded practice assignments can still do them! And if a student isn't doing well on graded assessments, SHOULD do the ungraded practice.

Those who can do well on the graded assessments without doing the ungraded practice have proven that they know the concepts and don't need to do every extra practice work.

I don't think this is a bad thing. It gives options for everyone to choose their adventure.

I agree with this but I think it still makes sense to have this count a bit, maybe 5%-10% max. This way if a student hasn't learned anything it doesn't meaningfully change their grade outcome, but it still results in students compelled to do the work because it helps their grade. Many college courses generally have this structure: homework/problem sets are worth up to around 20% max, and the rest is all midterms and final exam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference I’m seeing from last year and this one is that previously students could earn a 10 or 20 percent grade bump from doing the homework- now, the homework, quizzes, and other assignments such as labs don’t count. Also there was the opportunity for retakes on tests/assessments. That is gone. So all the pressure is on the one assessment, which are somehow broken down into 5 grading skills. This is resulting in pressure to be perfect on that one day of testing. Overall it is more difficult to get an A than it was before. Madison thinks it is the leader and at the forefront of grading - but those on the outside don’t know how flawed the system is.

But there's NOT just one chance to be assessed on a skill! That is the core of SBG! It's all about giving kids multiple opportunities to show what they know, and not penalize them if they didn't master the skill in October, but they figured it out by December. That's the essence of SBG...as long as you show the skill at some point before the end of the year...after multiple graded opportunities to show mastery, you won't be penalized for not understanding it faster. It's meant to take the "timing" element out of grades.

Does it matter if Suzy understood quadratic equations 5 on the first test opportunity, and Bob took a little longer, but still understood it fully sometime during the course? SBG policies say that the timing of mastery doesn't matter if both end up at the same place in the end.

In theory, you’re right. The problem is that SBG was haphazardly implemented and no two people understand/use it the same way, so this isn’t happening in the classroom. The skills my kid was assessed on in October have not been reassessed (at least not for a grade showing improvement); new formative assignments address new skills and the grades on older formatives stay the same. In an ideal scenario, they should change to reflect the improvements in the students level of mastery. In other words, if Suzy got a C on quadratic equations in October but earns an A now, under S G she should have an A. In most classes at Madison, she still has that C because any reassessment of quadratics (assuming there even was one) was in a formative for a different unit, and that’s the skill SIS shows Suzy has an A in., now averaged with the C from an old assessment in a skill she’s now actually learned.

[Anonymous]

To the parent who keeps posting over and over again in support of this with the boy that doesn't like to to do the worK: you need to go substitute in a class at Madison for one day where the work doesn't count. Go see what is going on then maybe we have a talk about the point of going to school at all. Students can just show up for the tests and quit wasting everyone's time.

What we've stablished here is SBG works for smart kids that are teaching themselves everything anyway like a kid in Calc B/C as a sophomore, and the slacker kids that like to float by and SBG makes their lives easier.

[Anonymous]

My issue is with the idea that some kids are eligible for retakes while others are not. I bet if kids with lower D/F grades were stuck with what they received, this system would be scrapped.

As it is, kids who do poorly get a retake and kids that do well enough don’t. This is where the gap closure happens and where fewer As happen. As with any equitable system, it’s not about providing the same tools for all, it’s about giving some kids more… mostly to supplement what someone earlier mentioned, a “parenting problem.”

[Anonymous]

Homework in the past got a completion grade. Even if you are smart, you should still do the work. Smart kids I know do the work quickly and in school. This is a non issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"The focus needs to be on classroom instruction, not trying out every new pedagogical fad and burdening teachers."

Just remember, the admin is on record with the idea that subject matter content "doesn't matter." Can you imagine any legit Educator promoting this ? And keeping their job.

Really? When? This is the problem. Not everything needs a revamp. This new program is causing more problems than what they started out with and the records are showing this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There will be time for a kid to get better about deadlines and deliverables. But, for right now, in high school, the primary purpose is ACADEMIC education --- and that hasn't been a complete disaster under SBG as many on this thread have suggested.

Glad to hear your kid is learning "academic subjects." Hope he learns about deadlines and all those soft skills in college.

My kid says the biggest difference is that before SBG they did interesting stuff in class, now after SBG everyone gossips and looks at their phone.

I really suspect you are a Madison administrator or one of the few teachers on board with SBG

Honestly, I am just a parent. And I don't really care that much which grading system they use. I just think the vitriol on this post is over the top... there has to be something behind that level of angst. I'm more interested in figuring that out, 'cause I can't see how this system could create all that angst unless it's based in fears of missing out or fears of not getting ahead of someone. Sure, SBG has it's positives and negatives. I see that. But, it seems like many on this thread are getting out the pitchforks and lighting the fires.... shrug... it's not that big of a deal to me or my kid. Not everyone sees the sky falling. If they change it tomorrow, then my kid will adapt to that.

Adaptation ---> best chance of survival!

This is a thread for discussion. You are taking this too personally and reading into it greater angst because of your own. Maybe you are a PTA parent or something and have to get along with the admin. I don't know, but people are allowed to have a discussion on items of concern. You seem like you have an issue with conflict.

The new grades are just dumb for everyone. It's an easy fix. Just go back to the old system.

[Anonymous]

Sometimes the best course of action is no change by going back to the old program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes the best course of action is no change by going back to the old program.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the parent who keeps posting over and over again in support of this with the boy that doesn't like to to do the worK: you need to go substitute in a class at Madison for one day where the work doesn't count. Go see what is going on then maybe we have a talk about the point of going to school at all. Students can just show up for the tests and quit wasting everyone's time.

What we've stablished here is SBG works for smart kids that are teaching themselves everything anyway like a kid in Calc B/C as a sophomore, and the slacker kids that like to float by and SBG makes their lives easier.

This is not true. There are still kids who are: (1) being taught new material BY THE TEACHER, and (2) learning that material IN SCHOOL, and (3) showing what they know on assessments even though they did not do the HOMEwork.

There can be work done IN CLASS that is practice for the assessment. HOMEwork is not the only way kids practice the new lessons. Teachers can teach in a way that kids are actively practicing the material at school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The difference I’m seeing from last year and this one is that previously students could earn a 10 or 20 percent grade bump from doing the homework- now, the homework, quizzes, and other assignments such as labs don’t count. Also there was the opportunity for retakes on tests/assessments. That is gone. So all the pressure is on the one assessment, which are somehow broken down into 5 grading skills. This is resulting in pressure to be perfect on that one day of testing. Overall it is more difficult to get an A than it was before. Madison thinks it is the leader and at the forefront of grading - but those on the outside don’t know how flawed the system is.

But there's NOT just one chance to be assessed on a skill! That is the core of SBG! It's all about giving kids multiple opportunities to show what they know, and not penalize them if they didn't master the skill in October, but they figured it out by December. That's the essence of SBG...as long as you show the skill at some point before the end of the year...after multiple graded opportunities to show mastery, you won't be penalized for not understanding it faster. It's meant to take the "timing" element out of grades.

Does it matter if Suzy understood quadratic equations 5 on the first test opportunity, and Bob took a little longer, but still understood it fully sometime during the course? SBG policies say that the timing of mastery doesn't matter if both end up at the same place in the end.

I’ve seen the school’s presentation on this. That is all theoretical - in practice it is not working that way. Kids are not being given multiple attempts with grades replaced. It is just not happening the way you think it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the parent who keeps posting over and over again in support of this with the boy that doesn't like to to do the worK: you need to go substitute in a class at Madison for one day where the work doesn't count. Go see what is going on then maybe we have a talk about the point of going to school at all. Students can just show up for the tests and quit wasting everyone's time.

What we've stablished here is SBG works for smart kids that are teaching themselves everything anyway like a kid in Calc B/C as a sophomore, and the slacker kids that like to float by and SBG makes their lives easier.

So what are you implying is going on? Kids on their phones/talking not doing anything? Not showing up?
Are you saying nobody is motivated to anything because they know non-assessment work doesn't count at all?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My issue is with the idea that some kids are eligible for retakes while others are not. I bet if kids with lower D/F grades were stuck with what they received, this system would be scrapped.

As it is, kids who do poorly get a retake and kids that do well enough don’t. This is where the gap closure happens and where fewer As happen. As with any equitable system, it’s not about providing the same tools for all, it’s about giving some kids more… mostly to supplement what someone earlier mentioned, a “parenting problem.”

If this is actually true, they would be in HUGE trouble. I doubt it is true, otherwise they'll have a bunch of state lawsuits to deal with in the current political environment.

If they allow retakes on certain assignments, they have to allow it for everyone. They can't selectively discriminate in terms of who they allow to retest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My issue is with the idea that some kids are eligible for retakes while others are not. I bet if kids with lower D/F grades were stuck with what they received, this system would be scrapped.

As it is, kids who do poorly get a retake and kids that do well enough don’t. This is where the gap closure happens and where fewer As happen. As with any equitable system, it’s not about providing the same tools for all, it’s about giving some kids more… mostly to supplement what someone earlier mentioned, a “parenting problem.”

If this is actually true, they would be in HUGE trouble. I doubt it is true, otherwise they'll have a bunch of state lawsuits to deal with in the current political environment.

If they allow retakes on certain assignments, they have to allow it for everyone. They can't selectively discriminate in terms of who they allow to retest.

Hard to say.

Madison states the following:
Teachers will identify in advance which summative assessments are eligible for a retake. For these assessments, at least one new opportunity to demonstrate mastery shall be provided to any student who scores below 3.4 on a 4.0 scale or 90% on the 100 point scale (less than an A-) and completes corrective action determined by the subject team. Assessments not eligible for a retake will be articulated in a teacher’s course syllabi.

Some posts ITT imply that it’s like that as well, but maybe not as decisive as the statement I included.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My issue is with the idea that some kids are eligible for retakes while others are not. I bet if kids with lower D/F grades were stuck with what they received, this system would be scrapped.

As it is, kids who do poorly get a retake and kids that do well enough don’t. This is where the gap closure happens and where fewer As happen. As with any equitable system, it’s not about providing the same tools for all, it’s about giving some kids more… mostly to supplement what someone earlier mentioned, a “parenting problem.”

If this is actually true, they would be in HUGE trouble. I doubt it is true, otherwise they'll have a bunch of state lawsuits to deal with in the current political environment.

If they allow retakes on certain assignments, they have to allow it for everyone. They can't selectively discriminate in terms of who they allow to retest.

Hard to say.

Madison states the following:
Teachers will identify in advance which summative assessments are eligible for a retake. For these assessments, at least one new opportunity to demonstrate mastery shall be provided to any student who scores below 3.4 on a 4.0 scale or 90% on the 100 point scale (less than an A-) and completes corrective action determined by the subject team. Assessments not eligible for a retake will be articulated in a teacher’s course syllabi.

Some posts ITT imply that it’s like that as well, but maybe not as decisive as the statement I included.

A-/90% is fine, that seems reasonable to me. But honestly it's easy to just allow everyone to retake the ones that the teacher selects to protect against possible lawsuits. It would not change outcomes at the top as many of the A- students would not think it's worth their time to retake to change from A- to A. Logistically it's also easy, there's no reason to exclude a few A- and above, as even if they retake and get an A, it's only good for the school as their overall grade is a bit higher.