Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SBG MAY encourage students to take ownership of their own learning process. - how would this even happen? They can't even see what skills are being assessed when they take assessments. Homework doesn't count and grades can be revised with no additional work. Tests aren't something that kids can spend a lot of time going over and doing work on. How would they have more time and ownership to review their work by only having tests graded? The work they do themselves they take more ownership of because they create it. Tests are created and given by a teacher. Grades only related to tests show less ownership from the student. They also reduce creativity and "deep learning" in the class.

SBG MAY have NO impact on consistently high performing kids b/c they will still consistently get high marks and learn much. - There are less assessments which often leads to lower grades. You can see this in college as well. How many people in college have over a 4.0? Also, once you are at a B, there is only one more letter grade you can go especially because this stupid grading system only uses whole letter grades. So it's very difficult to work up from a B to an A. Less A's as a result. And then you have to do them in the right order in order for you grade to go up. It makes no sense. Most students cannot keep track of this much detail. Assessments are listed as skills. When you take a test there is no section that says now you are being questioned on skill 2. It doesn't work like this.

SBG MAY improve student mental health by de-emphasizing the importance of grading and re-emphasizing the importance of engaging in learning (regardless of the grade given, if any). It does the opposite. With less assessments there is less reason to be engaged till right before a test and then there is more stress on the assessment. Also back to the above, there is not an easy way to track what skills are being assesssed and how it relates to your previous skill grades.

SBG MAY encourage students on the verge of failing or actually in a failing situation to continue to try and continue to learn because trends of improvement will be rewarded with bonus points on the previous grade (the bump up for one previous grade when there is an improved assessment thereafter). They can do a retake. FCPS has a policy on retakes already. This was available before. Why would we want them to just get a better grade from before verses actually learning the material and then retaking the test? You'd rather them just get a higher grade for not doing anything and somehow this is supposed to be beneficial to their learning?

SBG MAY encourage some to try more than they already have, allow others to put their efforts on what they prioritize, including allowing those for whom grades are the highest priority to continue to get top grades. There were already percentages related to small assignments verses larger assignments. Some teachers would give full credit for any work done at home as long as it was completed. Some assignments were practice and worth less than the summatives. This was already in place. Also the whole letter grades make it very difficult to motive a kid because there is such a difference from one grade to the next. Final grades have minuses and pluses? Why do away with this for individual assessments when it's already part of the grading system and the final grade?

Overwhelmingly the studies have shown that this grading requires more time for the teacher even though it is less assessments. They have to create two systems to track work done and often have to divide out which assessments fit each skill in percentages which takes a lot of time. It is less accurate for the student with only whole letter grades and fewer grades overall, requires more work on the student to check grades because they have to check skills as well as grades, and demotivates the student to do work in-between assessments. This is clearly an FCPS objective and not one requested by the parents or students. All Madison parents and students are asking for is the status quo before this SBG was started.

You clearly have your mind made up and you are not open to considering that you don't know everything about implementation, rules, etc. So, go ahead and be mad and frustrated and run at the windmill. I'm living a happier life 'cause I choose to see the possibilities, and I choose which battles are important enough to fight. In my opinion (and others), this is just Not That Big of a Deal. It does not warrant this level of reaction. Who knows... you might get your way. That's pretty typical at... the loudest voices of the well-connected, entitled parents brow-beat the admin into submission.

Yes, you trotted out your daughter to present her angst at the PTA mtg. The horrors of SBG!!! Life is over!

Have a little perspective. Your high performing kid is going to keep her high GPA and get into a selective college and do very well with the best internships, etc., etc. SBG isn't ruining anyone's life and it might give a small group of kids a boost. Grades aren't the only thing that matter. Strivers are still going to be at the top of the heap.

I've never attended a PTA meeting. Your anger is what is over the top. You opinion is your opinion only. Another mom I met had the same opinion as yours that this was no big deal but still had to keep telling everyone to shut up about it and has a senior and had no understanding that her opinion didn't matter anymore. She didn't have kids coming up through the system anymore but of course was on the PTA to make sure that everyone knew it would be no big deal. Why would you be so against someone just saying that they were happy with the school before this change and do not like the new system?

[Anonymous]

because she's friends with the principal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:SBG MAY encourage students to take ownership of their own learning process. - how would this even happen? They can't even see what skills are being assessed when they take assessments. Homework doesn't count and grades can be revised with no additional work. Tests aren't something that kids can spend a lot of time going over and doing work on. How would they have more time and ownership to review their work by only having tests graded? The work they do themselves they take more ownership of because they create it. Tests are created and given by a teacher. Grades only related to tests show less ownership from the student. They also reduce creativity and "deep learning" in the class.

SBG MAY have NO impact on consistently high performing kids b/c they will still consistently get high marks and learn much. - There are less assessments which often leads to lower grades. You can see this in college as well. How many people in college have over a 4.0? Also, once you are at a B, there is only one more letter grade you can go especially because this stupid grading system only uses whole letter grades. So it's very difficult to work up from a B to an A. Less A's as a result. And then you have to do them in the right order in order for you grade to go up. It makes no sense. Most students cannot keep track of this much detail. Assessments are listed as skills. When you take a test there is no section that says now you are being questioned on skill 2. It doesn't work like this.

SBG MAY improve student mental health by de-emphasizing the importance of grading and re-emphasizing the importance of engaging in learning (regardless of the grade given, if any). It does the opposite. With less assessments there is less reason to be engaged till right before a test and then there is more stress on the assessment. Also back to the above, there is not an easy way to track what skills are being assesssed and how it relates to your previous skill grades.

SBG MAY encourage students on the verge of failing or actually in a failing situation to continue to try and continue to learn because trends of improvement will be rewarded with bonus points on the previous grade (the bump up for one previous grade when there is an improved assessment thereafter). They can do a retake. FCPS has a policy on retakes already. This was available before. Why would we want them to just get a better grade from before verses actually learning the material and then retaking the test? You'd rather them just get a higher grade for not doing anything and somehow this is supposed to be beneficial to their learning?

SBG MAY encourage some to try more than they already have, allow others to put their efforts on what they prioritize, including allowing those for whom grades are the highest priority to continue to get top grades. There were already percentages related to small assignments verses larger assignments. Some teachers would give full credit for any work done at home as long as it was completed. Some assignments were practice and worth less than the summatives. This was already in place. Also the whole letter grades make it very difficult to motive a kid because there is such a difference from one grade to the next. Final grades have minuses and pluses? Why do away with this for individual assessments when it's already part of the grading system and the final grade?

Overwhelmingly the studies have shown that this grading requires more time for the teacher even though it is less assessments. They have to create two systems to track work done and often have to divide out which assessments fit each skill in percentages which takes a lot of time. It is less accurate for the student with only whole letter grades and fewer grades overall, requires more work on the student to check grades because they have to check skills as well as grades, and demotivates the student to do work in-between assessments. This is clearly an FCPS objective and not one requested by the parents or students. All Madison parents and students are asking for is the status quo before this SBG was started.

+1 This is thoughtful

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:because she's friends with the principal.

I’ve seen this before. School decisions by the pta and principals based on friendships and cliques verses good policy. So this person supporting the principal and SBG is a volunteer that sees the school as her social circle? She doesn’t seem to care either way about this policy and can’t defend either side before or after the change but instead of just staying out of it, she speaks up demeaning others so she can be seen as not making waves, despite making waves with other parents, and as a result she gets whatever she actually cares about while her kids are in the school and keep up friendships rather than maintaining a business relationship with the school. She has no problem demeaning parents because they aren’t in her social clique. Her words are really just all about her and her friendship needs with the principal and not this policy good or bad. If this were in front of the school board she wouldn’t show up. She doesn’t care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SBG MAY encourage students to take ownership of their own learning process. - how would this even happen? They can't even see what skills are being assessed when they take assessments. Homework doesn't count and grades can be revised with no additional work. Tests aren't something that kids can spend a lot of time going over and doing work on. How would they have more time and ownership to review their work by only having tests graded? The work they do themselves they take more ownership of because they create it. Tests are created and given by a teacher. Grades only related to tests show less ownership from the student. They also reduce creativity and "deep learning" in the class.

SBG MAY have NO impact on consistently high performing kids b/c they will still consistently get high marks and learn much. - There are less assessments which often leads to lower grades. You can see this in college as well. How many people in college have over a 4.0? Also, once you are at a B, there is only one more letter grade you can go especially because this stupid grading system only uses whole letter grades. So it's very difficult to work up from a B to an A. Less A's as a result. And then you have to do them in the right order in order for you grade to go up. It makes no sense. Most students cannot keep track of this much detail. Assessments are listed as skills. When you take a test there is no section that says now you are being questioned on skill 2. It doesn't work like this.

SBG MAY improve student mental health by de-emphasizing the importance of grading and re-emphasizing the importance of engaging in learning (regardless of the grade given, if any). It does the opposite. With less assessments there is less reason to be engaged till right before a test and then there is more stress on the assessment. Also back to the above, there is not an easy way to track what skills are being assesssed and how it relates to your previous skill grades.

SBG MAY encourage students on the verge of failing or actually in a failing situation to continue to try and continue to learn because trends of improvement will be rewarded with bonus points on the previous grade (the bump up for one previous grade when there is an improved assessment thereafter). They can do a retake. FCPS has a policy on retakes already. This was available before. Why would we want them to just get a better grade from before verses actually learning the material and then retaking the test? You'd rather them just get a higher grade for not doing anything and somehow this is supposed to be beneficial to their learning?

SBG MAY encourage some to try more than they already have, allow others to put their efforts on what they prioritize, including allowing those for whom grades are the highest priority to continue to get top grades. There were already percentages related to small assignments verses larger assignments. Some teachers would give full credit for any work done at home as long as it was completed. Some assignments were practice and worth less than the summatives. This was already in place. Also the whole letter grades make it very difficult to motive a kid because there is such a difference from one grade to the next. Final grades have minuses and pluses? Why do away with this for individual assessments when it's already part of the grading system and the final grade?

Overwhelmingly the studies have shown that this grading requires more time for the teacher even though it is less assessments. They have to create two systems to track work done and often have to divide out which assessments fit each skill in percentages which takes a lot of time. It is less accurate for the student with only whole letter grades and fewer grades overall, requires more work on the student to check grades because they have to check skills as well as grades, and demotivates the student to do work in-between assessments. This is clearly an FCPS objective and not one requested by the parents or students. All Madison parents and students are asking for is the status quo before this SBG was started.

You clearly have your mind made up and you are not open to considering that you don't know everything about implementation, rules, etc. So, go ahead and be mad and frustrated and run at the windmill. I'm living a happier life 'cause I choose to see the possibilities, and I choose which battles are important enough to fight. In my opinion (and others), this is just Not That Big of a Deal. It does not warrant this level of reaction. Who knows... you might get your way. That's pretty typical at... the loudest voices of the well-connected, entitled parents brow-beat the admin into submission.

Yes, you trotted out your daughter to present her angst at the PTA mtg. The horrors of SBG!!! Life is over!

Have a little perspective. Your high performing kid is going to keep her high GPA and get into a selective college and do very well with the best internships, etc., etc. SBG isn't ruining anyone's life and it might give a small group of kids a boost. Grades aren't the only thing that matter. Strivers are still going to be at the top of the heap.

I've never attended a PTA meeting. Your anger is what is over the top. You opinion is your opinion only. Another mom I met had the same opinion as yours that this was no big deal but still had to keep telling everyone to shut up about it and has a senior and had no understanding that her opinion didn't matter anymore. She didn't have kids coming up through the system anymore but of course was on the PTA to make sure that everyone knew it would be no big deal. Why would you be so against someone just saying that they were happy with the school before this change and do not like the new system?

1. Not angry.
2. Because you aren't just saying you were fine with the way things were. You and others are going on and on about doom and gloom and destruction of the children and Madison and everything else just b/c there is a new plan for grading less stuff and giving kids who show improvement a carrot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:because she's friends with the principal.

I’ve seen this before. School decisions by the pta and principals based on friendships and cliques verses good policy. So this person supporting the principal and SBG is a volunteer that sees the school as her social circle? She doesn’t seem to care either way about this policy and can’t defend either side before or after the change but instead of just staying out of it, she speaks up demeaning others so she can be seen as not making waves, despite making waves with other parents, and as a result she gets whatever she actually cares about while her kids are in the school and keep up friendships rather than maintaining a business relationship with the school. She has no problem demeaning parents because they aren’t in her social clique. Her words are really just all about her and her friendship needs with the principal and not this policy good or bad. If this were in front of the school board she wouldn’t show up. She doesn’t care.

You are living in a fantasy land of your own imagination.

[Anonymous]

Then demonstrate why this is such a great change and why the current system is so awful? Seems like a basic requirement to making a change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:because she's friends with the principal.

I’ve seen this before. School decisions by the pta and principals based on friendships and cliques verses good policy. So this person supporting the principal and SBG is a volunteer that sees the school as her social circle? She doesn’t seem to care either way about this policy and can’t defend either side before or after the change but instead of just staying out of it, she speaks up demeaning others so she can be seen as not making waves, despite making waves with other parents, and as a result she gets whatever she actually cares about while her kids are in the school and keep up friendships rather than maintaining a business relationship with the school. She has no problem demeaning parents because they aren’t in her social clique. Her words are really just all about her and her friendship needs with the principal and not this policy good or bad. If this were in front of the school board she wouldn’t show up. She doesn’t care.

You are living in a fantasy land of your own imagination.

DP - No she is probably right. I think this is what is going on too. It is really weird.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:because she's friends with the principal.

I’ve seen this before. School decisions by the pta and principals based on friendships and cliques verses good policy. So this person supporting the principal and SBG is a volunteer that sees the school as her social circle? She doesn’t seem to care either way about this policy and can’t defend either side before or after the change but instead of just staying out of it, she speaks up demeaning others so she can be seen as not making waves, despite making waves with other parents, and as a result she gets whatever she actually cares about while her kids are in the school and keep up friendships rather than maintaining a business relationship with the school. She has no problem demeaning parents because they aren’t in her social clique. Her words are really just all about her and her friendship needs with the principal and not this policy good or bad. If this were in front of the school board she wouldn’t show up. She doesn’t care.

You are living in a fantasy land of your own imagination.

DP - No she is probably right. I think this is what is going on too. It is really weird.

She shouldn't be on the PTA

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know why it is that the low-income students at Madison have low grades compared to other schools of similar demographics which brings down the Great Schools ratings? On Niche and other ratings, the school ranks very highly but on great schools Madison has a 6 out of 10 and they all have an 8 out of 10. I've checked other schools of similar demographics around the state and Madison is higher in all areas except for this, so it seems counterproductive to bring down the top performers who are excelling compared to other schools. The grades for English and Biology SOLs specifically are not meeting standards for the state. There must be another way to actually bring up these scores and help these students rather than affecting everyone else. Other schools are able to do this without implementing some grading system to artificially close a gap. The equity rating Madison gets is based off these SOLs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know why it is that the low-income students at Madison have low grades compared to other schools of similar demographics which brings down the Great Schools ratings? On Niche and other ratings, the school ranks very highly but on great schools Madison has a 6 out of 10 and they all have an 8 out of 10. I've checked other schools of similar demographics around the state and Madison is higher in all areas except for this, so it seems counterproductive to bring down the top performers who are excelling compared to other schools. The grades for English and Biology SOLs specifically are not meeting standards for the state. There must be another way to actually bring up these scores and help these students rather than affecting everyone else. Other schools are able to do this without implementing some grading system to artificially close a gap. The equity rating Madison gets is based off these SOLs.

The equity rating is not a legitimate score b/c it does not distinguish between low income kids who are recently arrived from El Salvador (which is mostly what makes up the "low income" group at Madison) vs. kids who are native born English speakers who happen to come from low-income families (which is what you see in some other schools or other parts of VA, or the US).


MAdison's administration bends over backwards to help kids who are in the low-income group. But, it's not realistic to think that a 17 yr old who has up-ended their whole life, is learning English, working a full time job, and has had sporadic education in the first 17 yrs, is going to excel on a Biology or English comprehension exam.

[Anonymous]

It's not really unique to Madison though, right? Either way, I don't see how changing grading is somehow going to impact these SOL scores. The entire change seems to be to somehow show less of a discrepancy but meanwhile the national and state rankings get lower and lower.

[Anonymous]

This article reflects how cult-like the new equity religion can get. Not sure there is any way to turn things around in FCPS because we unwittingly elect people who largely buy into this, and in turn they hire people like Dr. Reid who have risen through the ranks by being good acolytes.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/fairness-justice/fairfax-trained-teachers-disregard-objections-equity-grading

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This article reflects how cult-like the new equity religion can get. Not sure there is any way to turn things around in FCPS because we unwittingly elect people who largely buy into this, and in turn they hire people like Dr. Reid who have risen through the ranks by being good acolytes.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/fairness-justice/fairfax-trained-teachers-disregard-objections-equity-grading

Who is running these initiatives in FCPS? Where are they getting any proof that this is beneficial when there are results all of the US that says it doesn't help and hurts everyone? I think it's funny they call out the minimizer when that's exactly what that PTA mom was doing.

[Anonymous]

Equity became more important than competence in many facets of life. There is a diversity hire in our org, very nice and friendly person, but not at all competent at his job. Everyone (including me) is afraid even to provide suggestions, just so we would not be caught in any backlash.