BIL almost hit my 6-yr-old DD

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

Agree. I could see the other adults checking in if the kids had actually been harmed, but for just having to witness this behavior? It's too much. I'm sure my kids have seen worse on public transportation and just generally being in public. It didn't require an outpouring of concern from all the adults in the immediate area to move past it, like the man shooting up drugs right in front of us or the or the homeless person who tried to grab my daughter's hair. As long as the parents are there, that should be sufficient. As it was the other adults promptly dealt with BIL, so it was under control and they did their part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

Any adult who those children are supposed to see as a trusted adult in their extended family, yes. Obviously not the caretaker who had left. And it doesn’t have to be a huge deal— it could take less than a minute to say “hey, you were smart to get behind your dad when Uncle Bill was throwing things— are you ok?”

It’s exactly the same reason every adult in the story has a responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself, not just whoever the caretaker is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

Agree. I could see the other adults checking in if the kids had actually been harmed, but for just having to witness this behavior? It's too much. I'm sure my kids have seen worse on public transportation and just generally being in public. It didn't require an outpouring of concern from all the adults in the immediate area to move past it, like the man shooting up drugs right in front of us or the or the homeless person who tried to grab my daughter's hair. As long as the parents are there, that should be sufficient. As it was the other adults promptly dealt with BIL, so it was under control and they did their part.

And if that same homeless person was going to be at every subsequent family holiday, would you expect the experience to potentially alter your children’s view of the holidays if they were not reassured that they were safe and all of the adults— not just their parents— were watching out for them? After all they only *tried* to grab your daughters hair so what’s the big deal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

Agree. I could see the other adults checking in if the kids had actually been harmed, but for just having to witness this behavior? It's too much. I'm sure my kids have seen worse on public transportation and just generally being in public. It didn't require an outpouring of concern from all the adults in the immediate area to move past it, like the man shooting up drugs right in front of us or the or the homeless person who tried to grab my daughter's hair. As long as the parents are there, that should be sufficient. As it was the other adults promptly dealt with BIL, so it was under control and they did their part.

And if that same homeless person was going to be at every subsequent family holiday, would you expect the experience to potentially alter your children’s view of the holidays if they were not reassured that they were safe and all of the adults— not just their parents— were watching out for them? After all they only *tried* to grab your daughters hair so what’s the big deal?

Presumably OPs kids have been around BIL before and noticed his behavior was different? They couldn't pick up on the fact that he didn't act like other adults? Or maybe the kids could have been prepped in advance of what to expect? I'm sure my kids would wonder why Uncle Bill acts that way within 5 minutes of meeting him. Unlike random strangers who act unpredictably with no warning. I know which would be more shocking to me and scary to my kids. So, no, I don't think all the adults need to fall all over themselves in this situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

Agree. I could see the other adults checking in if the kids had actually been harmed, but for just having to witness this behavior? It's too much. I'm sure my kids have seen worse on public transportation and just generally being in public. It didn't require an outpouring of concern from all the adults in the immediate area to move past it, like the man shooting up drugs right in front of us or the or the homeless person who tried to grab my daughter's hair. As long as the parents are there, that should be sufficient. As it was the other adults promptly dealt with BIL, so it was under control and they did their part.

And if that same homeless person was going to be at every subsequent family holiday, would you expect the experience to potentially alter your children’s view of the holidays if they were not reassured that they were safe and all of the adults— not just their parents— were watching out for them? After all they only *tried* to grab your daughters hair so what’s the big deal?

It doesn’t escape my attention that you had to change the facts to make the kid the intentional near-victim (an attempt to grab a kid’s hair rather than non targeted flailing/throwing) to make your point seem more reasonable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

Agree. I could see the other adults checking in if the kids had actually been harmed, but for just having to witness this behavior? It's too much. I'm sure my kids have seen worse on public transportation and just generally being in public. It didn't require an outpouring of concern from all the adults in the immediate area to move past it, like the man shooting up drugs right in front of us or the or the homeless person who tried to grab my daughter's hair. As long as the parents are there, that should be sufficient. As it was the other adults promptly dealt with BIL, so it was under control and they did their part.

And if that same homeless person was going to be at every subsequent family holiday, would you expect the experience to potentially alter your children’s view of the holidays if they were not reassured that they were safe and all of the adults— not just their parents— were watching out for them? After all they only *tried* to grab your daughters hair so what’s the big deal?

Presumably OPs kids have been around BIL before and noticed his behavior was different? They couldn't pick up on the fact that he didn't act like other adults? Or maybe the kids could have been prepped in advance of what to expect? I'm sure my kids would wonder why Uncle Bill acts that way within 5 minutes of meeting him. Unlike random strangers who act unpredictably with no warning. I know which would be more shocking to me and scary to my kids. So, no, I don't think all the adults need to fall all over themselves in this situation.

If you consider asking a child how they’re doing— which takes 1-2 minutes tops— as “falling all over yourself” I really, genuinely, feel for your children.

Even if the children were prepped in advance, everything about this would have scared a normal 8 y/o and terrified a 6 y/o. Adults who theoretically care about these kids would care enough to check in. Adults who care that these kids not remember holidays as terrifying would check in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

Agree. I could see the other adults checking in if the kids had actually been harmed, but for just having to witness this behavior? It's too much. I'm sure my kids have seen worse on public transportation and just generally being in public. It didn't require an outpouring of concern from all the adults in the immediate area to move past it, like the man shooting up drugs right in front of us or the or the homeless person who tried to grab my daughter's hair. As long as the parents are there, that should be sufficient. As it was the other adults promptly dealt with BIL, so it was under control and they did their part.

And if that same homeless person was going to be at every subsequent family holiday, would you expect the experience to potentially alter your children’s view of the holidays if they were not reassured that they were safe and all of the adults— not just their parents— were watching out for them? After all they only *tried* to grab your daughters hair so what’s the big deal?

It doesn’t escape my attention that you had to change the facts to make the kid the intentional near-victim (an attempt to grab a kid’s hair rather than non targeted flailing/throwing) to make your point seem more reasonable.

Ok go with the drug user. They really didn’t do anything to anyone. So if someone was going to shoot up in front of your kids every holiday, would you expect that to impact their views?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

Agree. I could see the other adults checking in if the kids had actually been harmed, but for just having to witness this behavior? It's too much. I'm sure my kids have seen worse on public transportation and just generally being in public. It didn't require an outpouring of concern from all the adults in the immediate area to move past it, like the man shooting up drugs right in front of us or the or the homeless person who tried to grab my daughter's hair. As long as the parents are there, that should be sufficient. As it was the other adults promptly dealt with BIL, so it was under control and they did their part.

And if that same homeless person was going to be at every subsequent family holiday, would you expect the experience to potentially alter your children’s view of the holidays if they were not reassured that they were safe and all of the adults— not just their parents— were watching out for them? After all they only *tried* to grab your daughters hair so what’s the big deal?

Presumably OPs kids have been around BIL before and noticed his behavior was different? They couldn't pick up on the fact that he didn't act like other adults? Or maybe the kids could have been prepped in advance of what to expect? I'm sure my kids would wonder why Uncle Bill acts that way within 5 minutes of meeting him. Unlike random strangers who act unpredictably with no warning. I know which would be more shocking to me and scary to my kids. So, no, I don't think all the adults need to fall all over themselves in this situation.

If you consider asking a child how they’re doing— which takes 1-2 minutes tops— as “falling all over yourself” I really, genuinely, feel for your children.

Even if the children were prepped in advance, everything about this would have scared a normal 8 y/o and terrified a 6 y/o. Adults who theoretically care about these kids would care enough to check in. Adults who care that these kids not remember holidays as terrifying would check in.

No, you don't get to move the goalposts. This is about all the other adults, not the parents. Remember? The parents should check on the kids. Not every other adult in such a minor situation. I don't agree that all the other adults need to do that. So no need for your faux concern about my kids. And now you're describing this situation as terrifying? Ok, drama llama.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

Agree. I could see the other adults checking in if the kids had actually been harmed, but for just having to witness this behavior? It's too much. I'm sure my kids have seen worse on public transportation and just generally being in public. It didn't require an outpouring of concern from all the adults in the immediate area to move past it, like the man shooting up drugs right in front of us or the or the homeless person who tried to grab my daughter's hair. As long as the parents are there, that should be sufficient. As it was the other adults promptly dealt with BIL, so it was under control and they did their part.

And if that same homeless person was going to be at every subsequent family holiday, would you expect the experience to potentially alter your children’s view of the holidays if they were not reassured that they were safe and all of the adults— not just their parents— were watching out for them? After all they only *tried* to grab your daughters hair so what’s the big deal?

It doesn’t escape my attention that you had to change the facts to make the kid the intentional near-victim (an attempt to grab a kid’s hair rather than non targeted flailing/throwing) to make your point seem more reasonable.

Ok go with the drug user. They really didn’t do anything to anyone. So if someone was going to shoot up in front of your kids every holiday, would you expect that to impact their views?

The BIL likewise didn't do anything to anyone. So again, nobody but the parents needs to do anything. My kids still like to walk city streets, their views haven't changed and every adult in the area didn't need to step in and personally check in on them. They were shocked, but life goes on. Much like OP the scene OPs kids witnessed. Some times these things happen in the big wide world we live in.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

Agree. I could see the other adults checking in if the kids had actually been harmed, but for just having to witness this behavior? It's too much. I'm sure my kids have seen worse on public transportation and just generally being in public. It didn't require an outpouring of concern from all the adults in the immediate area to move past it, like the man shooting up drugs right in front of us or the or the homeless person who tried to grab my daughter's hair. As long as the parents are there, that should be sufficient. As it was the other adults promptly dealt with BIL, so it was under control and they did their part.

And if that same homeless person was going to be at every subsequent family holiday, would you expect the experience to potentially alter your children’s view of the holidays if they were not reassured that they were safe and all of the adults— not just their parents— were watching out for them? After all they only *tried* to grab your daughters hair so what’s the big deal?

Presumably OPs kids have been around BIL before and noticed his behavior was different? They couldn't pick up on the fact that he didn't act like other adults? Or maybe the kids could have been prepped in advance of what to expect? I'm sure my kids would wonder why Uncle Bill acts that way within 5 minutes of meeting him. Unlike random strangers who act unpredictably with no warning. I know which would be more shocking to me and scary to my kids. So, no, I don't think all the adults need to fall all over themselves in this situation.

If you consider asking a child how they’re doing— which takes 1-2 minutes tops— as “falling all over yourself” I really, genuinely, feel for your children.

Even if the children were prepped in advance, everything about this would have scared a normal 8 y/o and terrified a 6 y/o. Adults who theoretically care about these kids would care enough to check in. Adults who care that these kids not remember holidays as terrifying would check in.

Are you the OP? You seem to be on a crusade to “protect” these kids from their terrifying uncle.

If you are the OP, speak to your husband, who grew up with him, about how best to address this with your kids and how they should react in the situation. Your husband is not terrified of his brother, so he obviously survived however many Christmas dinners without deciding Christmas is terrifying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Great troll post Op!!

Nearly 8 pages, a misleading post title, and not returning to answer or clarify 7 pages of questions.

I think it's real but OP realized how wrong they were. They've probably always harbored resentment for BIL (quite sad.. it's not like it's the BIL's fault) and were looking to get validation to exclude BIL from future family events.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

Agree. I could see the other adults checking in if the kids had actually been harmed, but for just having to witness this behavior? It's too much. I'm sure my kids have seen worse on public transportation and just generally being in public. It didn't require an outpouring of concern from all the adults in the immediate area to move past it, like the man shooting up drugs right in front of us or the or the homeless person who tried to grab my daughter's hair. As long as the parents are there, that should be sufficient. As it was the other adults promptly dealt with BIL, so it was under control and they did their part.

And if that same homeless person was going to be at every subsequent family holiday, would you expect the experience to potentially alter your children’s view of the holidays if they were not reassured that they were safe and all of the adults— not just their parents— were watching out for them? After all they only *tried* to grab your daughters hair so what’s the big deal?

Presumably OPs kids have been around BIL before and noticed his behavior was different? They couldn't pick up on the fact that he didn't act like other adults? Or maybe the kids could have been prepped in advance of what to expect? I'm sure my kids would wonder why Uncle Bill acts that way within 5 minutes of meeting him. Unlike random strangers who act unpredictably with no warning. I know which would be more shocking to me and scary to my kids. So, no, I don't think all the adults need to fall all over themselves in this situation.

If you consider asking a child how they’re doing— which takes 1-2 minutes tops— as “falling all over yourself” I really, genuinely, feel for your children.

Even if the children were prepped in advance, everything about this would have scared a normal 8 y/o and terrified a 6 y/o. Adults who theoretically care about these kids would care enough to check in. Adults who care that these kids not remember holidays as terrifying would check in.

Are you the OP? You seem to be on a crusade to “protect” these kids from their terrifying uncle.

If you are the OP, speak to your husband, who grew up with him, about how best to address this with your kids and how they should react in the situation. Your husband is not terrified of his brother, so he obviously survived however many Christmas dinners without deciding Christmas is terrifying.

+1

[Anonymous]

When the immediate incident was over you should have taken your kids to a quiet spot, asked if they were okay and how they were feeling, asked if they understood what happened, then explained how this is what you mentioned before hand about uncle Joe and be done with it. It’s a good teaching moment for them. Not everyone is the same, some people have disabilities and this is how you act.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I would not want this man near my children, since clearly he can hurt them without meaning to. I have a child with special needs myself, so I understand that no blame attaches to this person. Yet the injuries a grown man can inflict on young children, especially on the head, are serious, so these behaviors actually DO need to be discussed and taken seriously. As is:

1. How often does he have tantrums like these?
2. Are there recognizable triggers?
3. When you're not around, does your husband guarantee that he will make sure his kids are never near enough to get accidentally hit?
4. Is there a better medication plan, since clearly this one is insufficient?
5. Long-term, what resources will be used to care for that BIL, and which institution will accept him?

These are hard conversations to have, but I would put my foot down and not have this person in my home until his family can give me some assurances. With my son, I am always ready to explain and discuss his needs with my family, so they feel informed and engaged. Meds are very tricky, and need constant adjustment. It's HARD. I feel for everyone involved in your situation, OP, but children's wellbeing MUST come first and you will have to defend them.

Not all special needs are the same.

Unless you have multiple children over 18 it's best you sit this one out before you start claiming you'd be fine with your kids future spouses bannig your disabled child from their homes.

When a kid gets hurt because there’s no plan in place or no acknowledgment that there is risk, who does that benefit? No one is saying ban him, but a couple people are saying it’s ok that children also be protected and taken care of.

It seems that there was a plan in place and acknowledgement of the risk based on how the tantrum was handled. What would you do differently, keep him in a straight jacket?

What I would do differently is, if a child in my family watched an adult scream, throw things, and then nearly hit them, the adults in the family would check in with the child to make sure they were ok. They would say “it’s not ok for Uncle Jim to hit or throw things, but he isn’t able to help it just like you couldn’t when you were small”.

I would not expect children in my family (my children or nieces and nephews) to experience adult outbursts like that without making sure they felt safe afterward. That’s how children come to fear and hate holidays with extended family.

+1

Some of the responses on this thread concern me. There is a balance between including a person with special needs and respecting a child’s right to feeling safe and to enjoy a peaceful holiday. It’s possible to express and feel empathy for all parties involved.

Did the OP say she didn’t address this with her kids?

It is not the sole responsibility of OP. If the kids are going to be exposed to this routinely they need to know that every adult there is looking out for them and wants them to be ok. Because if Uncle Jim has a meltdown and one of the thrown things is something they care about, or they do get hit next time (which is possible) they can’t just be SOL because mom was getting something out of the oven and Dad had to go to the bathroom. Yes, OPs family-in-law needs to make accommodations for her BIL but they also need to make accommodations for the children who are impacted— otherwise we’ll see them on DCUM as refusing to go to family holidays because they spent their childhood holidays hoping Uncle Jim didn’t melt down while none of the adults seemed to care that they were scared the whole time.

I guess I missed where OP said her 6 and 8 yr old experience this routinely, and they’ve never had a conversation with any of the adults about it.

Again. It isn’t “any” of the adults. Every adult there who is supporting BIL also has a responsibility to make sure the kids aren’t hurt, and the kids are getting just as much support from their family. It’s super weird you think children should watch someone throw, scream, and flail and the adults present should take no responsibility because “empathy”? Where’s your empathy for the children?

They did take responsibility, by removing BIL. There seems to be some belief here that this situation should not just have been reacted to (it was) but prevented. How? All BIL’s support network can do is react to the situation in the interest of safety. The only way to be sure the kids are never frightened is to prevent them from ever being with BIL, which isn’t reasonable.

That isn’t what I’m saying and I’m the poster who you’re responding to.

My point is that reacting is part one, and checking in with the children who have been scared is part two. That’s every adults responsibility in the same way it would be every adults responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself. Once BIL is safe, every adult at some point should say to the children “Larla/Larlo, it’s not OK that uncle bill yelled and threw that plate, but uncle bill doesn’t understand that. We’re always here to make sure you’re safe, and if you ever feel scared it always ok to tell us.”

In my opinion that is what was missing from OPs experience.

So it’s not enough that the adults actually kept the kids safe, and it’s not enough that the kids’ parents reassured them. In addition, every adult in the house was supposed to come up individually and reassure the kids?

DP. I have the same question. So if it was 8 other adults in the room, all other 8 adults needed to ask these 2 kids if there were alright? That seems kinda overkill.

Any adult who those children are supposed to see as a trusted adult in their extended family, yes. Obviously not the caretaker who had left. And it doesn’t have to be a huge deal— it could take less than a minute to say “hey, you were smart to get behind your dad when Uncle Bill was throwing things— are you ok?”

It’s exactly the same reason every adult in the story has a responsibility to keep BIL from hurting himself, not just whoever the caretaker is.

If the kids’ parents are there, I would never approach them to ask if they are ok. I see that as interfering with the parents’ job.