Why does the DC Council (Charles Allen) not want the MPD doing any traffic enforcement?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused why a thread about traffic enforcement turns into an argument about bikes. You're all just rich talking heads who don't even live in the areas of the city where traffic safety issues are a concern.

There is no part of DC where traffic safety is not a big concern.

MD drivers aren't magically transported downtown or to Capital Hill - they have to get thru Wards 3 and 4 and 6 to get there and there are equally dangerous everywhere.

Actually looking at the map in this Post article, it's predominantly not ward 3, but all the anti traffic safety people who spend time complaining about bikes seem to live in ward 3. On a thread about general traffic safety which includes far, far, far more than just bikes, they literally cannot stop complaining about bikes of all things.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/02/23/dc-traffic-deaths-highest-record/



"The Southern Avenue corridor, which separates D.C. from Maryland’s Prince George’s County, accounted for nearly 1 in 5 traffic deaths in the city last year, The Post found. Among those killed were two pedestrians struck in the same block — one while crossing the street and the other a victim in a hit-and-run — about eight months apart.

Ward 3, which contains many of the city’s Whitest and wealthiest neighborhoods in upper Northwest, had no traffic deaths last year. Cases have often garnered more attention in wealthier areas, where advocates and residents are more vocal on social media, at vigils and during government hearings."

...

"Four of the five neighborhoods with the most deaths over the past eight years are home to majority-Black residents, according to The Post’s analysis, while at least 58 percent of victims citywide were Black — a number that’s likely higher because records in many cases don’t identify race or ethnicity.

By contrast, five majority-White and higher-income neighborhoods — Kent/Palisades, Chevy Chase, Barnaby Woods, Mt. Pleasant and Georgetown — had no traffic fatalities during the eight-year period. This analysis uses boundaries established by the D.C. Department of Health, which delineates 51 “statistical neighborhoods” for research purposes.

Wards 7 and 8, with a population that is about 90 percent Black, combined for 19 traffic-related deaths last year as Ward 3 had none. In the past eight years, Ward 3 recorded seven crash deaths, while wards 7 and 8 had 53 and 60, respectively."

Combined fatalities and accidents with both severe and minor injuries for both bicycles and pedestrians in 2022 give a good indication of the geographic pattern where traffic enforcement should be prioritized and it’s not what you are saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused why a thread about traffic enforcement turns into an argument about bikes. You're all just rich talking heads who don't even live in the areas of the city where traffic safety issues are a concern.

There is no part of DC where traffic safety is not a big concern.

MD drivers aren't magically transported downtown or to Capital Hill - they have to get thru Wards 3 and 4 and 6 to get there and there are equally dangerous everywhere.

Actually looking at the map in this Post article, it's predominantly not ward 3, but all the anti traffic safety people who spend time complaining about bikes seem to live in ward 3. On a thread about general traffic safety which includes far, far, far more than just bikes, they literally cannot stop complaining about bikes of all things.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/02/23/dc-traffic-deaths-highest-record/



"The Southern Avenue corridor, which separates D.C. from Maryland’s Prince George’s County, accounted for nearly 1 in 5 traffic deaths in the city last year, The Post found. Among those killed were two pedestrians struck in the same block — one while crossing the street and the other a victim in a hit-and-run — about eight months apart.

Ward 3, which contains many of the city’s Whitest and wealthiest neighborhoods in upper Northwest, had no traffic deaths last year. Cases have often garnered more attention in wealthier areas, where advocates and residents are more vocal on social media, at vigils and during government hearings."

...

"Four of the five neighborhoods with the most deaths over the past eight years are home to majority-Black residents, according to The Post’s analysis, while at least 58 percent of victims citywide were Black — a number that’s likely higher because records in many cases don’t identify race or ethnicity.

By contrast, five majority-White and higher-income neighborhoods — Kent/Palisades, Chevy Chase, Barnaby Woods, Mt. Pleasant and Georgetown — had no traffic fatalities during the eight-year period. This analysis uses boundaries established by the D.C. Department of Health, which delineates 51 “statistical neighborhoods” for research purposes.

Wards 7 and 8, with a population that is about 90 percent Black, combined for 19 traffic-related deaths last year as Ward 3 had none. In the past eight years, Ward 3 recorded seven crash deaths, while wards 7 and 8 had 53 and 60, respectively."

Combined fatalities and accidents with both severe and minor injuries for both bicycles and pedestrians in 2022 give a good indication of the geographic pattern where traffic enforcement should be prioritized and it’s not what you are saying.

Wait what, you're promoting traffic enforcement in at least some areas of DC? Well, praise be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused why a thread about traffic enforcement turns into an argument about bikes. You're all just rich talking heads who don't even live in the areas of the city where traffic safety issues are a concern.

There is no part of DC where traffic safety is not a big concern.

MD drivers aren't magically transported downtown or to Capital Hill - they have to get thru Wards 3 and 4 and 6 to get there and there are equally dangerous everywhere.

Actually looking at the map in this Post article, it's predominantly not ward 3, but all the anti traffic safety people who spend time complaining about bikes seem to live in ward 3. On a thread about general traffic safety which includes far, far, far more than just bikes, they literally cannot stop complaining about bikes of all things.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/02/23/dc-traffic-deaths-highest-record/



"The Southern Avenue corridor, which separates D.C. from Maryland’s Prince George’s County, accounted for nearly 1 in 5 traffic deaths in the city last year, The Post found. Among those killed were two pedestrians struck in the same block — one while crossing the street and the other a victim in a hit-and-run — about eight months apart.

Ward 3, which contains many of the city’s Whitest and wealthiest neighborhoods in upper Northwest, had no traffic deaths last year. Cases have often garnered more attention in wealthier areas, where advocates and residents are more vocal on social media, at vigils and during government hearings."

...

"Four of the five neighborhoods with the most deaths over the past eight years are home to majority-Black residents, according to The Post’s analysis, while at least 58 percent of victims citywide were Black — a number that’s likely higher because records in many cases don’t identify race or ethnicity.

By contrast, five majority-White and higher-income neighborhoods — Kent/Palisades, Chevy Chase, Barnaby Woods, Mt. Pleasant and Georgetown — had no traffic fatalities during the eight-year period. This analysis uses boundaries established by the D.C. Department of Health, which delineates 51 “statistical neighborhoods” for research purposes.

Wards 7 and 8, with a population that is about 90 percent Black, combined for 19 traffic-related deaths last year as Ward 3 had none. In the past eight years, Ward 3 recorded seven crash deaths, while wards 7 and 8 had 53 and 60, respectively."

Combined fatalities and accidents with both severe and minor injuries for both bicycles and pedestrians in 2022 give a good indication of the geographic pattern where traffic enforcement should be prioritized and it’s not what you are saying.

I think you were responding to me and I didn't say anything about where accidents and fatalities are happening so not sure why you responded with all of this data, date about which I am already very familiar.

I simply stated that people across DC are concerned about safety on their roads which I know because I attend public meetings across the city every week. And people across the city are correct to be concerned about safety on their roads because there is crazy and dangerous driving everywhere.

Of course the crash charts you shared pretty closely correspond to traffic volumes and historically we've located high volume roads in poorer neighborhoods. There is a common refrain that DC halted all freeways and built Metro instead but of course that is only partly true - the movement to stop the freeways only really got started when there were proposals for freeways in Wards 3 and 4 - the proposed freeways in Wards 7 & 8 sadly largely were built and the neighborhoods suffer for it today.

And you likely haven't been around long enough to know this but in Ward 3 at least many of the NIMBY's opposed to adding new housing in the Ward originally cut their teeth fighting freeways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused why a thread about traffic enforcement turns into an argument about bikes. You're all just rich talking heads who don't even live in the areas of the city where traffic safety issues are a concern.

There is no part of DC where traffic safety is not a big concern.

MD drivers aren't magically transported downtown or to Capital Hill - they have to get thru Wards 3 and 4 and 6 to get there and there are equally dangerous everywhere.

Actually looking at the map in this Post article, it's predominantly not ward 3, but all the anti traffic safety people who spend time complaining about bikes seem to live in ward 3. On a thread about general traffic safety which includes far, far, far more than just bikes, they literally cannot stop complaining about bikes of all things.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/02/23/dc-traffic-deaths-highest-record/



"The Southern Avenue corridor, which separates D.C. from Maryland’s Prince George’s County, accounted for nearly 1 in 5 traffic deaths in the city last year, The Post found. Among those killed were two pedestrians struck in the same block — one while crossing the street and the other a victim in a hit-and-run — about eight months apart.

Ward 3, which contains many of the city’s Whitest and wealthiest neighborhoods in upper Northwest, had no traffic deaths last year. Cases have often garnered more attention in wealthier areas, where advocates and residents are more vocal on social media, at vigils and during government hearings."

...

"Four of the five neighborhoods with the most deaths over the past eight years are home to majority-Black residents, according to The Post’s analysis, while at least 58 percent of victims citywide were Black — a number that’s likely higher because records in many cases don’t identify race or ethnicity.

By contrast, five majority-White and higher-income neighborhoods — Kent/Palisades, Chevy Chase, Barnaby Woods, Mt. Pleasant and Georgetown — had no traffic fatalities during the eight-year period. This analysis uses boundaries established by the D.C. Department of Health, which delineates 51 “statistical neighborhoods” for research purposes.

Wards 7 and 8, with a population that is about 90 percent Black, combined for 19 traffic-related deaths last year as Ward 3 had none. In the past eight years, Ward 3 recorded seven crash deaths, while wards 7 and 8 had 53 and 60, respectively."

Combined fatalities and accidents with both severe and minor injuries for both bicycles and pedestrians in 2022 give a good indication of the geographic pattern where traffic enforcement should be prioritized and it’s not what you are saying.

I think you were responding to me and I didn't say anything about where accidents and fatalities are happening so not sure why you responded with all of this data, date about which I am already very familiar.

I simply stated that people across DC are concerned about safety on their roads which I know because I attend public meetings across the city every week. And people across the city are correct to be concerned about safety on their roads because there is crazy and dangerous driving everywhere.

Of course the crash charts you shared pretty closely correspond to traffic volumes and historically we've located high volume roads in poorer neighborhoods. There is a common refrain that DC halted all freeways and built Metro instead but of course that is only partly true - the movement to stop the freeways only really got started when there were proposals for freeways in Wards 3 and 4 - the proposed freeways in Wards 7 & 8 sadly largely were built and the neighborhoods suffer for it today.

And you likely haven't been around long enough to know this but in Ward 3 at least many of the NIMBY's opposed to adding new housing in the Ward originally cut their teeth fighting freeways.

The most accidents are where the city is the most dense and there is the greatest interface of different users: Wards 1, 2, 5 and 6.

It has nothing to do with race. However, these areas also have the least amount of camera enforcement, which is closely associated with race. However, this doesn’t stop people from claiming that they are actually trying to save BIPOC lives.

The reason Vision Zero is not working is that the white residents of DC in Wards 1, 2, 5 and 6 will not tolerate the carcereal enforcement policy that they want to push onto BIPOC on DC. That’s it.



https://www.dcpolicycenter.org/publications/predominately-black-neighborhoods-in-d-c-bear-the-brunt-of-automated-traffic-enforcement/

[Anonymous]

Well this is good news if it goes through. I support this (but still DC still MUST also get reciprocity to be able to hold MD and VA drivers accountable!).

Bill introduced today by Elissa Silverman would actually do a traffic safety class for serious offenders AND use speed limiting equipment on city vehicles. Also looks like it increases car booting. Good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well this is good news if it goes through. I support this (but still DC still MUST also get reciprocity to be able to hold MD and VA drivers accountable!).

Bill introduced today by Elissa Silverman would actually do a traffic safety class for serious offenders AND use speed limiting equipment on city vehicles. Also looks like it increases car booting. Good.

If a vehicle is levied a fine and that fine is paid, then it would be an unconstitutional taking to impound that vehicle to compel the owner to take a class.

[Anonymous]

The most accidents are where the city is the most dense and there is the greatest interface of different users: Wards 1, 2, 5 and 6.

It has nothing to do with race. However, these areas also have the least amount of camera enforcement, which is closely associated with race. However, this doesn’t stop people from claiming that they are actually trying to save BIPOC lives.

The reason Vision Zero is not working is that the white residents of DC in Wards 1, 2, 5 and 6 will not tolerate the carcereal enforcement policy that they want to push onto BIPOC on DC. That’s it.



https://www.dcpolicycenter.org/publications/predominately-black-neighborhoods-in-d-c-bear-the-brunt-of-automated-traffic-enforcement/

That is nonsense.

If you'd been engaged on this issue you'd know that there is relentless pressure from the wealthier parts of DC for safer streets. Fortunately in the last couple of years a lot of activists from Wards 7 & 8 have also engaged on this issue which may be why Trayon White is finally being a bit more reasonable on the issue.

There is no carceral state around vision zero in DC - far from it - unenforceable fines are almost the opposite of that.

And in any case we have no data on the race or economic class of who is getting traffic camera citations in DC. We do know the citations are overwhelming being issued to suburban drivers and we also know that in DC at least car ownership also tracks pretty closely to economic status which unfortunately in DC also tracks to race which is to say car ownership rates are much lower among lower income residents.

Tragically vehicular violence also disproportionately impacts lower income neighborhoods as do the lowered health outcomes from exposure to too much car exhaust.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well this is good news if it goes through. I support this (but still DC still MUST also get reciprocity to be able to hold MD and VA drivers accountable!).

Bill introduced today by Elissa Silverman would actually do a traffic safety class for serious offenders AND use speed limiting equipment on city vehicles. Also looks like it increases car booting. Good.

If a vehicle is levied a fine and that fine is paid, then it would be an unconstitutional taking to impound that vehicle to compel the owner to take a class.

I believe booting is only occurring, even in this scenario, if the ticket is unpaid.

If NYC was able to legally implement a class, DC should be able to as well. I hope.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well this is good news if it goes through. I support this (but still DC still MUST also get reciprocity to be able to hold MD and VA drivers accountable!).

Bill introduced today by Elissa Silverman would actually do a traffic safety class for serious offenders AND use speed limiting equipment on city vehicles. Also looks like it increases car booting. Good.

If a vehicle is levied a fine and that fine is paid, then it would be an unconstitutional taking to impound that vehicle to compel the owner to take a class.

I believe booting is only occurring, even in this scenario, if the ticket is unpaid.

If NYC was able to legally implement a class, DC should be able to as well. I hope.

DC doesn't boot much but has re-started doing so in the last few months but to be booted in DC you need two unpaid citations each at least 60 days old before you are boot and tow eligible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well this is good news if it goes through. I support this (but still DC still MUST also get reciprocity to be able to hold MD and VA drivers accountable!).

Bill introduced today by Elissa Silverman would actually do a traffic safety class for serious offenders AND use speed limiting equipment on city vehicles. Also looks like it increases car booting. Good.

If a vehicle is levied a fine and that fine is paid, then it would be an unconstitutional taking to impound that vehicle to compel the owner to take a class.

I believe booting is only occurring, even in this scenario, if the ticket is unpaid.

If NYC was able to legally implement a class, DC should be able to as well. I hope.

DC doesn't boot much but has re-started doing so in the last few months but to be booted in DC you need two unpaid citations each at least 60 days old before you are boot and tow eligible.

I sometimes run license plates on drivers that are horrible and it's amazing how many people have months, or sometimes years, of unpaid tickets, accruing thousands of dollars. Try it. It's just mind boggling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I live in Allen's district right off one of the most dangerous roads in NE for pedestrians (Florida Ave between the Starburst and Dave Thomas Circle). I feel frustrated because I actually agree with the PP that the best way to get safer roads is to build better roads that are less conducive to speeding and also that protect pedestrians. Florida has four lanes, people regularly go as much as 20 mph over the limit, narrow and mostly unprotected sidewalks, and too few traffic lights (a number of pedestrian crossings not at lights that are disregarded by drivers about 99.9999999% of the time -- it takes a brave soul to try one of these crosswalks when there is any traffic at all).

And yet the Florida Avenue streetscape that has been talked about for a decade is nowhere to be seen. Despite multiple fatalities on the road in the last 10 years.

And ALSO Allen and others are aginst traffic enforcement.

My question, as with crime, is: okay, no what? If you won't do the liberal/progressive thing of investing in improved infrastructure that slows drivers down and protects pedestrians, but you also won't do the traditional/conservative thing of enforcing existing traffic laws as a deterrent for speeders and dangerous drivers, then are we just supposed to live with dangerous driving all the time?

It's the same with crime. You can talk all you want about "violence interruptors" and providing young people with more resources to keep them away from criminal activity, but if you won't actually do any of this and you also don't want to enforce criminal laws against violators, then what is the plan?

I get that policy is hard but that doesn't mean "no policy, zero enforcement" is an acceptable solution then. You have to do *something*. Do something.

Maybe Charles Allen is secretly a libertarian funded by the Koch Bros who wants to “drown the government in a bathtub”?

That would actually explain a lot of his confounding policies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well this is good news if it goes through. I support this (but still DC still MUST also get reciprocity to be able to hold MD and VA drivers accountable!).

Bill introduced today by Elissa Silverman would actually do a traffic safety class for serious offenders AND use speed limiting equipment on city vehicles. Also looks like it increases car booting. Good.

That's racist. Many BIPOC do not have the resources to take time off from work and attend traffic class. Better to just non-enforce these violations where impacts will be so obviously disparate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well this is good news if it goes through. I support this (but still DC still MUST also get reciprocity to be able to hold MD and VA drivers accountable!).

Bill introduced today by Elissa Silverman would actually do a traffic safety class for serious offenders AND use speed limiting equipment on city vehicles. Also looks like it increases car booting. Good.

That's racist. Many BIPOC do not have the resources to take time off from work and attend traffic class. Better to just non-enforce these violations where impacts will be so obviously disparate.

So you propose letting dangerous drivers stay dangerous with zero repercussions? When BIPOC are most likely to be victims of dangerous drivers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Traffic cameras disproportionately hit black drivers

Traffic cameras are racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Traffic cameras disproportionately hit black drivers

Traffic cameras are racist.

There has been studies linked above that provide the evidence. The placement of the cameras are concentrated in predominantly Black neighborhoods while most traffic violence is occurring in Wards 1, 2 and 6.