Federal judge rules that admissions changes at nation’s top public school discriminate against Asian

[Anonymous]

I'm reading all this as the parent of an elementary student.

Grades are very subjective as well, and also can vary widely based on the teacher a student gets. We have teachers assign above grade level status to kids doing well in on grade level work in one class while the class next door must actually take different tests to get thia distinction. Or a teacher who gives above grade level status and then straight 3s in the subject, putting kid gradewise on par with kids doing less challenging work..

Waiting to see how this all shakes out in AAP process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm reading all this as the parent of an elementary student.

Grades are very subjective as well, and also can vary widely based on the teacher a student gets. We have teachers assign above grade level status to kids doing well in on grade level work in one class while the class next door must actually take different tests to get thia distinction. Or a teacher who gives above grade level status and then straight 3s in the subject, putting kid gradewise on par with kids doing less challenging work..

Waiting to see how this all shakes out in AAP process.

True. Standardized testing will take away teacher bias. But many are opposed to it since tests can be subject to extreme prepping and not everyone can afford it either. Grades and teacher recommendations are probably the fair compromise without quotas that punish specific groups.

[Anonymous]

Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

Those are called Extra Curriculars and are considered (supposedly) in the college admissions process. At a minimum they identify the person as an Asian for negative treatment by college admissions counselors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

There’s nothing wrong with each TJ class having a few kids who are exceptional in each of those disciplines. But there’s not a ton of value in TJ having the 50th best kid in MathCounts in a given year when they could have the best kid in some other area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

There’s nothing wrong with each TJ class having a few kids who are exceptional in each of those disciplines. But there’s not a ton of value in TJ having the 50th best kid in MathCounts in a given year when they could have the best kid in some other area.

They're not going to have the 50th best kid in MathCounts. TJ dropped consideration of these things, with the argument that not all schools offer these programs, and it is putting capable kids at a disadvantage. The same argument was used for considering kids in Algebra 1.

What I am asking is if it is OK to use these criteria to help pick the top kids at each school? A certain number of kids get automatic admissions under the new system. The lack of availability is no longer an issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm reading all this as the parent of an elementary student.

Grades are very subjective as well, and also can vary widely based on the teacher a student gets. We have teachers assign above grade level status to kids doing well in on grade level work in one class while the class next door must actually take different tests to get thia distinction. Or a teacher who gives above grade level status and then straight 3s in the subject, putting kid gradewise on par with kids doing less challenging work..

Waiting to see how this all shakes out in AAP process.

True. Standardized testing will take away teacher bias. But many are opposed to it since tests can be subject to extreme prepping and not everyone can afford it either. Grades and teacher recommendations are probably the fair compromise without quotas that punish specific groups.

Standardized testing removes one type of bias and introduces another. There’s no single criteria alone that is the answer, a variety of factors ought to be considered. Some people are so invested in standardized testing though, they see it as some sort of merit-based silver bullet and have full blinders towards this sort of reliance on an ostensibly objective measure. I trust teachers more than a test to identify the kids most qualified and would benefit from TJ, but would prefer not to rely on teachers alone either. Multiple data points is a good thing, which goes for AAP, TJ, college, job hiring, or almost any sort of human selection process really.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm reading all this as the parent of an elementary student.

Grades are very subjective as well, and also can vary widely based on the teacher a student gets. We have teachers assign above grade level status to kids doing well in on grade level work in one class while the class next door must actually take different tests to get thia distinction. Or a teacher who gives above grade level status and then straight 3s in the subject, putting kid gradewise on par with kids doing less challenging work..

Waiting to see how this all shakes out in AAP process.

True. Standardized testing will take away teacher bias. But many are opposed to it since tests can be subject to extreme prepping and not everyone can afford it either. Grades and teacher recommendations are probably the fair compromise without quotas that punish specific groups.

Teacher recommendations can be very subjective as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm reading all this as the parent of an elementary student.

Grades are very subjective as well, and also can vary widely based on the teacher a student gets. We have teachers assign above grade level status to kids doing well in on grade level work in one class while the class next door must actually take different tests to get thia distinction. Or a teacher who gives above grade level status and then straight 3s in the subject, putting kid gradewise on par with kids doing less challenging work..

Waiting to see how this all shakes out in AAP process.

True. Standardized testing will take away teacher bias. But many are opposed to it since tests can be subject to extreme prepping and not everyone can afford it either. Grades and teacher recommendations are probably the fair compromise without quotas that punish specific groups.

Teacher recommendations can be very subjective as well.

If subjectivity were a huge problem, the most successful business entities in the world wouldn’t use it to make literally every hiring decision ever.

It is a part of every selective environment in America and will be for the rest of time. Students would be well-served to get used to that reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

DP. The trouble here is that many of those specific ECs have been historically seen as tickets to TJ because they theoretically provide evidence of “passion for STEM”. They were part of a very narrow path that families could rely on to position their children for the TJ admissions process as well as possible.

But when you have a very narrow path that is successful, you end up with a significant percentage of the students who enter TJ with VERY similar backgrounds and resumes because so many families have tried to optimize their child’s application in the same way.

It might make some sense to have this sort of process for a class of 100-150, like at a Blair in Maryland. But for a class of 550, you have to have more diverse interests and goals and backgrounds or you end up with a hyper-competitive environment where too many students are pursuing the same endpoint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm reading all this as the parent of an elementary student.

Grades are very subjective as well, and also can vary widely based on the teacher a student gets. We have teachers assign above grade level status to kids doing well in on grade level work in one class while the class next door must actually take different tests to get thia distinction. Or a teacher who gives above grade level status and then straight 3s in the subject, putting kid gradewise on par with kids doing less challenging work..

Waiting to see how this all shakes out in AAP process.

True. Standardized testing will take away teacher bias. But many are opposed to it since tests can be subject to extreme prepping and not everyone can afford it either. Grades and teacher recommendations are probably the fair compromise without quotas that punish specific groups.

Standardized testing removes one type of bias and introduces another. There’s no single criteria alone that is the answer, a variety of factors ought to be considered. Some people are so invested in standardized testing though, they see it as some sort of merit-based silver bullet and have full blinders towards this sort of reliance on an ostensibly objective measure. I trust teachers more than a test to identify the kids most qualified and would benefit from TJ, but would prefer not to rely on teachers alone either. Multiple data points is a good thing, which goes for AAP, TJ, college, job hiring, or almost any sort of human selection process really.

Right, so the best plan would be a holistic evaluation including grades, teacher recommendations, essays, and a standardized test. The old system was bad because the standardized test was too strongly used as a gatekeeper for semifinalist status. The new system is bad because it is too sparse. Thankfully, there is a pretty broad middle ground between the old system and the new one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

Mere participation in STEM ECs shouldn't matter. High levels of success in a STEM based EC should. Kids who qualify for AIME in middle school, win first place at Science Olympiad states, or the like are showing that they are elite talents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it acceptable, within the applicants for a particular school, to rank based on extracurriculars like MathCounts, AMC 8, AMC 10, Science Olympiad, Robotics, FLL, etc?

We live in a different jurisdiction, but I cannot process why choice of EC would be a factor? Almost nobody in the top academic classes at our school does those contests. It's a "thing" with some kids who don't have otherwise busy schedules, but it is not a marker of the brightest students by a long shot. It a choice about how to spend your free time.

Mere participation in STEM ECs shouldn't matter. High levels of success in a STEM based EC should. Kids who qualify for AIME in middle school, win first place at Science Olympiad states, or the like are showing that they are elite talents.

OR, that they have parents willing to supply enormous amounts of time, energy, and money who also have the right connections to match their kids up with amazing mentors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm reading all this as the parent of an elementary student.

Grades are very subjective as well, and also can vary widely based on the teacher a student gets. We have teachers assign above grade level status to kids doing well in on grade level work in one class while the class next door must actually take different tests to get thia distinction. Or a teacher who gives above grade level status and then straight 3s in the subject, putting kid gradewise on par with kids doing less challenging work..

Waiting to see how this all shakes out in AAP process.

True. Standardized testing will take away teacher bias. But many are opposed to it since tests can be subject to extreme prepping and not everyone can afford it either. Grades and teacher recommendations are probably the fair compromise without quotas that punish specific groups.

Standardized testing removes one type of bias and introduces another. There’s no single criteria alone that is the answer, a variety of factors ought to be considered. Some people are so invested in standardized testing though, they see it as some sort of merit-based silver bullet and have full blinders towards this sort of reliance on an ostensibly objective measure. I trust teachers more than a test to identify the kids most qualified and would benefit from TJ, but would prefer not to rely on teachers alone either. Multiple data points is a good thing, which goes for AAP, TJ, college, job hiring, or almost any sort of human selection process really.

Right, so the best plan would be a holistic evaluation including grades, teacher recommendations, essays, and a standardized test. The old system was bad because the standardized test was too strongly used as a gatekeeper for semifinalist status. The new system is bad because it is too sparse. Thankfully, there is a pretty broad middle ground between the old system and the new one.

This is basically what colleges do and it seems to be working well for them! I agree that old system needs to be changed, but the new system is full of holes and glaring apparent who they intended to penalize right from the start - academic focused kids, going to aap centers and living specific neighborhoods. No matter where your politics land, its not fair to these kids. However on the plus side, its easier to stand out in the base school, which helps in college admissions.