U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts on Friday called for a response from a Virginia school

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Anonymous wrote:https://www.fcps.edu/news/tjhsst-offers-admission-550-students-broadens-access-students-who-have-aptitude-stem

“Economically disadvantaged students increased from 0.62% (2020-21) to 25.09%.”

People knew which boxes to check last year to get a boost. The ideal candidate is now a Hispanic student from Poe or Black student from Whitman who reports being economically disadvantaged.

Only amoral people checked it if they weren’t truly low-income.

What's the definition of low-income?

Did you qualify for free or reduced lunches before the pandemic? Did you have a serious financial setback during the pandemic?

Is there an official thing at of quantifying this? Can one get a certificate of low income?

There are a variety of resources available if you need some assistance.

Info and application for free/reduced lunch.
https://www.fcps.edu/resources/student-safety-and-wellness/food-and-nutrition-programs/free-and-reduced-price-meals

More info:
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/support/nutrition/resources/faqs.shtml

“ Children from families with incomes at or below 130 percent of the poverty level are eligible for free meals. Those between 130 percent and 185 percent of the poverty level are eligible for reduced-price meals”


https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/familyservices/sites/familyservices/files/assets/boardsauthoritiescommissions/community-action-advisory-board/pdfs/2020-community-action-advisory-board-state-of-the-poor-bookmark.pdf

“ In 2019, poverty for a family of four is defined as a family annual income of less than $25,750 per year.”

So we have 25% of the current class with family income below $25k per year?

Or taking the 185% criteria, 25% of the class has less than $60k. Who's measuring this?

Less than $50k family income rather

I would really like to see verification....for all the touring of the 25% number.

It’s all self reported based on the 2 meals questions on the application. Since everyone gets free meals, anyone can say yes.

Lisa Williams the FCPS equity czar, left in Dec 2021. Was her departure related to the meals questions?

Unbelievable..essentially answering yes on that question led to +131 more admissions while the story being told is that they earn less than $47K in family income? this is what happens when fools don't understand process.

Some of those are probably parents trying to game the system but there are certainly more ED kids than the prior process (0.6%).

Rather than fetishize numbers that may be wildly off you might ask whether there’s any real point left to operating TJ as a magnet. Objective observers not so caught up in the idea of “winning” by kicking Asian and/or Carson/Longfellow/Rocky Run kids out would say probably not.

There are certainly more low-income students there than before. There may be no way to know exact #s.

Wanted to expand access isn’t “kicking” anyone.

Certainly is - when only Asian numbers are going down. 27% up for whites is part of expanding access.

When a group that makes up 15%-20% of the county's population gets over 50% of all TJ seats they don't have a lot to complain about. At least try telling that to groups that make up more than 20% and only get less than 5% of the seats.

It’s only ok because Asians are the ones being discriminated against. If it were black or Hispanic kids the outrage would be endless.

I mean, Black and Hispanic students have been discriminated against for the entirety of TJ's history on the grounds that not being able to keep up with students whose parents funded expensive exam prep made them somehow "less qualified".

And people still spout crap like that, and the false nonsense that Black and Hispanic parents "don't care as much about their child's education", when the relevant point to this conversation is that they don't start focusing narrowly on one single educational opportunity at an extraordinarily early age. Which is understandable, given that THEY COULDN'T GET IN BECAUSE OF EXAM PREP CULTURE.

Changing TJ's admission policy will not change the fact that some people will further enrichment (whether solving AOPS/Khan Academy problems on their own (for free) or going to AOPS/RM, etc.). If you have children you will know that some kids are either into it or not. You cannot force a kid to be good at math (at least to the level of AIME, etc.) or any other subject for that matter, no matter how much money you spend.

Even if you change the admission policy, the people who do not have time/resources will continue not to have these resources. 21 9th graders at TJ dropped out for some reason (freshman is now down to 529 as of end of March from 550). This is unprecedented. What gives?

Unless you provide resources (at a far earlier age), high school is too late to overcome falling behind what has accumulated for 14 years. TJ is not that kind of place.

Figure out why there is less representation for URMs/FARMs even at the AAP level starting in 3rd grade.

Fix the problem. Don't pretend to have solved the problem.

Move to a lottery with anyone above a 3.5 qualifying and solve the problem that way.

It's the only real solution since so many seem to be fighting for an advantage that benefits them without any regard for the common good.

Then why the 3.5 grade point average requirement? I would say that's not equitable. Not at all. Surely, there are more kids who score under 3.5 GPA who are economically disadvantaged and underrepresented minorities, who cannot pay for additional tutoring and prepping to get a 3.5 GPA. Why should those kids be discriminated against and kept out of TJ.

A GPA cutoff seems reasonable. It doesn't require affluence like prep classes just determination and intelligence both of which are necessary to succeed in a program like TJs.

Yes, it measures performance in classes available to the students. So even if they didn't score well on a test in 2nd grade or get on the express train to advanced math in elementary school they can still demonstrate their abilities.

How do we account for different grading practices across different schools and classes?

The other day, my kid was very upset his current math teacher cut a solid point for missing a small symbol in his final otherwise correct answer essentially invalidating his entire solution. This is teacher known for being very strict with grading. I tried to tell him that teacher is trying teach a lesson that kids won’t forget. But he said it’s not fair because the other math teachers don’t do that and kids in other classes get much higher math scores than his class. He would be fine if all teachers are consistent - I checked his papers and surprised how easy it is to miss the grade. My kid is always super stressed about the math tests, not because he doesn’t know how to solve, but even simple missing a simple symbol or units could cost him a lot of points. Anyways, the point is, if there is so much difference with in a single school, I can’t imagine the grading differences across the schools.

grades are evil. we should just get rid of them...it is not a competition. kids should be kids.

Tell me about it. My kid got A- in his 7th grade English in spite of trying super hard and I had to help him out when he was stressed. He said he never really got along with the teacher as she barely used to teach and engage in unnecessary conversations with the kids who entertained her. Or, may be the teacher didn’t like his style of writing. But 8th grade, right from the start he always got full scores and even averaged around 99 and without much effort and I hardly seen him stressing/doing English homework’s at home. He loves his 8th grade teacher. I don’t know if his English really deserves full marks in 8th grade, but I can certainly say he didn’t deserve A- in 7th and it might even cost him TJ. Anyways, nothing can be changed, just trying make the similar point about grading discrepancies.

Agreed. We need to eliminate grades.

And schools, and books, and pen and paper. We will finally all be equitable when we are all drawing figures with sticks in mud again.

No, we need at least one data point where everyone is evaluated on the same scale. However, this means some sort of a standardized test, which is frowned upon especially in this forum. But, testing can be prepped and we want admissions that requires 'zero' preparation. But, what no one understands is preparation is part of life and it is difficult to avoid it. In real life, we say preparation is key to success. I always tell my kids that if they see some done well and looks easy, it only means there is a ton of effort behind it which we don't realize until we try to do it ourselves.

The current admission process is very subjective with out a single data point that evaluates kids on the same scale. If this is not enough, it adds a ton of free booster points to some and telling them they cannot compete any other way. I would rather just allocate quotas openly and let the kids at least compete 'fairly and equally' within their allocate groups. Otherwise, we have no way of knowing how many kids gets boosted by other experience factors each year. Its not really fair to offer kid who edge out due to an extra 200 or 300 booster points over a regular kid who only score a little less due to lack of booster points. Instead, if there is an open quota for booster kids, non-booster kids will at least know that they are in a fair competition with other non boosters and boosters aren't taking away their place. Anyways, this is my take on it.

Sounds like a lottery is the only solution.

I am sure lottery was considered as an option, but probably discarded for two reasons.
1. Feeder schools and schools from north west portion of the county will still get too many admissions due to sheer volume of kids applying. If the implicit goal is to reduce this very thing, then lottery wouldn't really work. Also, if lottery is the thing, even more kids from feeders apply further complicating the end goal.
2. We cannot simply pick someone who has 3.5 against some one who has 4.0 based on the lottery. The new admissions is almost already a lottery in the feeder schools where there are usually 100s of kids with very similar grades and there is no clear way to stop the talent other than a 30min essay and portrait sheet and both of which are super subjective. Now, if the lottery comes into picture, significantly more kids from feeders (and other schools) will apply as all it requires is simple cut-off. TJ is already being diluted in terms of talent (which we will realize in 3-4 years) and lottery will dilute even more.
3. TJ pool kids will not look much different from any honors class (not even AP) at base high school as everyone who has 3.5GPA has the same chance of getting in. It will die down in popularity pretty quickly - I believe its already on the way, but not so much as its still selecting top candidates based on the GPA etc.

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Anonymous wrote:https://www.fcps.edu/news/tjhsst-offers-admission-550-students-broadens-access-students-who-have-aptitude-stem

“Economically disadvantaged students increased from 0.62% (2020-21) to 25.09%.”

People knew which boxes to check last year to get a boost. The ideal candidate is now a Hispanic student from Poe or Black student from Whitman who reports being economically disadvantaged.

Only amoral people checked it if they weren’t truly low-income.

What's the definition of low-income?

Did you qualify for free or reduced lunches before the pandemic? Did you have a serious financial setback during the pandemic?

Is there an official thing at of quantifying this? Can one get a certificate of low income?

There are a variety of resources available if you need some assistance.

Info and application for free/reduced lunch.
https://www.fcps.edu/resources/student-safety-and-wellness/food-and-nutrition-programs/free-and-reduced-price-meals

More info:
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/support/nutrition/resources/faqs.shtml

“ Children from families with incomes at or below 130 percent of the poverty level are eligible for free meals. Those between 130 percent and 185 percent of the poverty level are eligible for reduced-price meals”


https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/familyservices/sites/familyservices/files/assets/boardsauthoritiescommissions/community-action-advisory-board/pdfs/2020-community-action-advisory-board-state-of-the-poor-bookmark.pdf

“ In 2019, poverty for a family of four is defined as a family annual income of less than $25,750 per year.”

So we have 25% of the current class with family income below $25k per year?

Or taking the 185% criteria, 25% of the class has less than $60k. Who's measuring this?

Less than $50k family income rather

I would really like to see verification....for all the touring of the 25% number.

It’s all self reported based on the 2 meals questions on the application. Since everyone gets free meals, anyone can say yes.

Lisa Williams the FCPS equity czar, left in Dec 2021. Was her departure related to the meals questions?

Unbelievable..essentially answering yes on that question led to +131 more admissions while the story being told is that they earn less than $47K in family income? this is what happens when fools don't understand process.

Some of those are probably parents trying to game the system but there are certainly more ED kids than the prior process (0.6%).

Rather than fetishize numbers that may be wildly off you might ask whether there’s any real point left to operating TJ as a magnet. Objective observers not so caught up in the idea of “winning” by kicking Asian and/or Carson/Longfellow/Rocky Run kids out would say probably not.

There are certainly more low-income students there than before. There may be no way to know exact #s.

Wanted to expand access isn’t “kicking” anyone.

Certainly is - when only Asian numbers are going down. 27% up for whites is part of expanding access.

When a group that makes up 15%-20% of the county's population gets over 50% of all TJ seats they don't have a lot to complain about. At least try telling that to groups that make up more than 20% and only get less than 5% of the seats.

It’s only ok because Asians are the ones being discriminated against. If it were black or Hispanic kids the outrage would be endless.

I mean, Black and Hispanic students have been discriminated against for the entirety of TJ's history on the grounds that not being able to keep up with students whose parents funded expensive exam prep made them somehow "less qualified".

And people still spout crap like that, and the false nonsense that Black and Hispanic parents "don't care as much about their child's education", when the relevant point to this conversation is that they don't start focusing narrowly on one single educational opportunity at an extraordinarily early age. Which is understandable, given that THEY COULDN'T GET IN BECAUSE OF EXAM PREP CULTURE.

Changing TJ's admission policy will not change the fact that some people will further enrichment (whether solving AOPS/Khan Academy problems on their own (for free) or going to AOPS/RM, etc.). If you have children you will know that some kids are either into it or not. You cannot force a kid to be good at math (at least to the level of AIME, etc.) or any other subject for that matter, no matter how much money you spend.

Even if you change the admission policy, the people who do not have time/resources will continue not to have these resources. 21 9th graders at TJ dropped out for some reason (freshman is now down to 529 as of end of March from 550). This is unprecedented. What gives?

Unless you provide resources (at a far earlier age), high school is too late to overcome falling behind what has accumulated for 14 years. TJ is not that kind of place.

Figure out why there is less representation for URMs/FARMs even at the AAP level starting in 3rd grade.

Fix the problem. Don't pretend to have solved the problem.

Move to a lottery with anyone above a 3.5 qualifying and solve the problem that way.

It's the only real solution since so many seem to be fighting for an advantage that benefits them without any regard for the common good.

Then why the 3.5 grade point average requirement? I would say that's not equitable. Not at all. Surely, there are more kids who score under 3.5 GPA who are economically disadvantaged and underrepresented minorities, who cannot pay for additional tutoring and prepping to get a 3.5 GPA. Why should those kids be discriminated against and kept out of TJ.

A GPA cutoff seems reasonable. It doesn't require affluence like prep classes just determination and intelligence both of which are necessary to succeed in a program like TJs.

Yes, it measures performance in classes available to the students. So even if they didn't score well on a test in 2nd grade or get on the express train to advanced math in elementary school they can still demonstrate their abilities.

How do we account for different grading practices across different schools and classes?

The other day, my kid was very upset his current math teacher cut a solid point for missing a small symbol in his final otherwise correct answer essentially invalidating his entire solution. This is teacher known for being very strict with grading. I tried to tell him that teacher is trying teach a lesson that kids won’t forget. But he said it’s not fair because the other math teachers don’t do that and kids in other classes get much higher math scores than his class. He would be fine if all teachers are consistent - I checked his papers and surprised how easy it is to miss the grade. My kid is always super stressed about the math tests, not because he doesn’t know how to solve, but even simple missing a simple symbol or units could cost him a lot of points. Anyways, the point is, if there is so much difference with in a single school, I can’t imagine the grading differences across the schools.

grades are evil. we should just get rid of them...it is not a competition. kids should be kids.

Tell me about it. My kid got A- in his 7th grade English in spite of trying super hard and I had to help him out when he was stressed. He said he never really got along with the teacher as she barely used to teach and engage in unnecessary conversations with the kids who entertained her. Or, may be the teacher didn’t like his style of writing. But 8th grade, right from the start he always got full scores and even averaged around 99 and without much effort and I hardly seen him stressing/doing English homework’s at home. He loves his 8th grade teacher. I don’t know if his English really deserves full marks in 8th grade, but I can certainly say he didn’t deserve A- in 7th and it might even cost him TJ. Anyways, nothing can be changed, just trying make the similar point about grading discrepancies.

Agreed. We need to eliminate grades.

And schools, and books, and pen and paper. We will finally all be equitable when we are all drawing figures with sticks in mud again.

No, we need at least one data point where everyone is evaluated on the same scale. However, this means some sort of a standardized test, which is frowned upon especially in this forum. But, testing can be prepped and we want admissions that requires 'zero' preparation. But, what no one understands is preparation is part of life and it is difficult to avoid it. In real life, we say preparation is key to success. I always tell my kids that if they see some done well and looks easy, it only means there is a ton of effort behind it which we don't realize until we try to do it ourselves.

The current admission process is very subjective with out a single data point that evaluates kids on the same scale. If this is not enough, it adds a ton of free booster points to some and telling them they cannot compete any other way. I would rather just allocate quotas openly and let the kids at least compete 'fairly and equally' within their allocate groups. Otherwise, we have no way of knowing how many kids gets boosted by other experience factors each year. Its not really fair to offer kid who edge out due to an extra 200 or 300 booster points over a regular kid who only score a little less due to lack of booster points. Instead, if there is an open quota for booster kids, non-booster kids will at least know that they are in a fair competition with other non boosters and boosters aren't taking away their place. Anyways, this is my take on it.

Sounds like a lottery is the only solution.

I am sure lottery was considered as an option, but probably discarded for two reasons.
1. Feeder schools and schools from north west portion of the county will still get too many admissions due to sheer volume of kids applying. If the implicit goal is to reduce this very thing, then lottery wouldn't really work. Also, if lottery is the thing, even more kids from feeders apply further complicating the end goal.
2. We cannot simply pick someone who has 3.5 against some one who has 4.0 based on the lottery. The new admissions is almost already a lottery in the feeder schools where there are usually 100s of kids with very similar grades and there is no clear way to stop the talent other than a 30min essay and portrait sheet and both of which are super subjective. Now, if the lottery comes into picture, significantly more kids from feeders (and other schools) will apply as all it requires is simple cut-off. TJ is already being diluted in terms of talent (which we will realize in 3-4 years) and lottery will dilute even more.
3. TJ pool kids will not look much different from any honors class (not even AP) at base high school as everyone who has 3.5GPA has the same chance of getting in. It will die down in popularity pretty quickly - I believe its already on the way, but not so much as its still selecting top candidates based on the GPA etc.

* 3 reasons

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Anonymous wrote:https://www.fcps.edu/news/tjhsst-offers-admission-550-students-broadens-access-students-who-have-aptitude-stem

“Economically disadvantaged students increased from 0.62% (2020-21) to 25.09%.”

People knew which boxes to check last year to get a boost. The ideal candidate is now a Hispanic student from Poe or Black student from Whitman who reports being economically disadvantaged.

Only amoral people checked it if they weren’t truly low-income.

What's the definition of low-income?

Did you qualify for free or reduced lunches before the pandemic? Did you have a serious financial setback during the pandemic?

Is there an official thing at of quantifying this? Can one get a certificate of low income?

There are a variety of resources available if you need some assistance.

Info and application for free/reduced lunch.
https://www.fcps.edu/resources/student-safety-and-wellness/food-and-nutrition-programs/free-and-reduced-price-meals

More info:
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/support/nutrition/resources/faqs.shtml

“ Children from families with incomes at or below 130 percent of the poverty level are eligible for free meals. Those between 130 percent and 185 percent of the poverty level are eligible for reduced-price meals”


https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/familyservices/sites/familyservices/files/assets/boardsauthoritiescommissions/community-action-advisory-board/pdfs/2020-community-action-advisory-board-state-of-the-poor-bookmark.pdf

“ In 2019, poverty for a family of four is defined as a family annual income of less than $25,750 per year.”

So we have 25% of the current class with family income below $25k per year?

Or taking the 185% criteria, 25% of the class has less than $60k. Who's measuring this?

Less than $50k family income rather

I would really like to see verification....for all the touring of the 25% number.

It’s all self reported based on the 2 meals questions on the application. Since everyone gets free meals, anyone can say yes.

Lisa Williams the FCPS equity czar, left in Dec 2021. Was her departure related to the meals questions?

Unbelievable..essentially answering yes on that question led to +131 more admissions while the story being told is that they earn less than $47K in family income? this is what happens when fools don't understand process.

Some of those are probably parents trying to game the system but there are certainly more ED kids than the prior process (0.6%).

Rather than fetishize numbers that may be wildly off you might ask whether there’s any real point left to operating TJ as a magnet. Objective observers not so caught up in the idea of “winning” by kicking Asian and/or Carson/Longfellow/Rocky Run kids out would say probably not.

There are certainly more low-income students there than before. There may be no way to know exact #s.

Wanted to expand access isn’t “kicking” anyone.

Certainly is - when only Asian numbers are going down. 27% up for whites is part of expanding access.

When a group that makes up 15%-20% of the county's population gets over 50% of all TJ seats they don't have a lot to complain about. At least try telling that to groups that make up more than 20% and only get less than 5% of the seats.

It’s only ok because Asians are the ones being discriminated against. If it were black or Hispanic kids the outrage would be endless.

I mean, Black and Hispanic students have been discriminated against for the entirety of TJ's history on the grounds that not being able to keep up with students whose parents funded expensive exam prep made them somehow "less qualified".

And people still spout crap like that, and the false nonsense that Black and Hispanic parents "don't care as much about their child's education", when the relevant point to this conversation is that they don't start focusing narrowly on one single educational opportunity at an extraordinarily early age. Which is understandable, given that THEY COULDN'T GET IN BECAUSE OF EXAM PREP CULTURE.

Changing TJ's admission policy will not change the fact that some people will further enrichment (whether solving AOPS/Khan Academy problems on their own (for free) or going to AOPS/RM, etc.). If you have children you will know that some kids are either into it or not. You cannot force a kid to be good at math (at least to the level of AIME, etc.) or any other subject for that matter, no matter how much money you spend.

Even if you change the admission policy, the people who do not have time/resources will continue not to have these resources. 21 9th graders at TJ dropped out for some reason (freshman is now down to 529 as of end of March from 550). This is unprecedented. What gives?

Unless you provide resources (at a far earlier age), high school is too late to overcome falling behind what has accumulated for 14 years. TJ is not that kind of place.

Figure out why there is less representation for URMs/FARMs even at the AAP level starting in 3rd grade.

Fix the problem. Don't pretend to have solved the problem.

Move to a lottery with anyone above a 3.5 qualifying and solve the problem that way.

It's the only real solution since so many seem to be fighting for an advantage that benefits them without any regard for the common good.

Then why the 3.5 grade point average requirement? I would say that's not equitable. Not at all. Surely, there are more kids who score under 3.5 GPA who are economically disadvantaged and underrepresented minorities, who cannot pay for additional tutoring and prepping to get a 3.5 GPA. Why should those kids be discriminated against and kept out of TJ.

A GPA cutoff seems reasonable. It doesn't require affluence like prep classes just determination and intelligence both of which are necessary to succeed in a program like TJs.

Yes, it measures performance in classes available to the students. So even if they didn't score well on a test in 2nd grade or get on the express train to advanced math in elementary school they can still demonstrate their abilities.

How do we account for different grading practices across different schools and classes?

The other day, my kid was very upset his current math teacher cut a solid point for missing a small symbol in his final otherwise correct answer essentially invalidating his entire solution. This is teacher known for being very strict with grading. I tried to tell him that teacher is trying teach a lesson that kids won’t forget. But he said it’s not fair because the other math teachers don’t do that and kids in other classes get much higher math scores than his class. He would be fine if all teachers are consistent - I checked his papers and surprised how easy it is to miss the grade. My kid is always super stressed about the math tests, not because he doesn’t know how to solve, but even simple missing a simple symbol or units could cost him a lot of points. Anyways, the point is, if there is so much difference with in a single school, I can’t imagine the grading differences across the schools.

grades are evil. we should just get rid of them...it is not a competition. kids should be kids.

Tell me about it. My kid got A- in his 7th grade English in spite of trying super hard and I had to help him out when he was stressed. He said he never really got along with the teacher as she barely used to teach and engage in unnecessary conversations with the kids who entertained her. Or, may be the teacher didn’t like his style of writing. But 8th grade, right from the start he always got full scores and even averaged around 99 and without much effort and I hardly seen him stressing/doing English homework’s at home. He loves his 8th grade teacher. I don’t know if his English really deserves full marks in 8th grade, but I can certainly say he didn’t deserve A- in 7th and it might even cost him TJ. Anyways, nothing can be changed, just trying make the similar point about grading discrepancies.

Agreed. We need to eliminate grades.

And schools, and books, and pen and paper. We will finally all be equitable when we are all drawing figures with sticks in mud again.

No, we need at least one data point where everyone is evaluated on the same scale. However, this means some sort of a standardized test, which is frowned upon especially in this forum. But, testing can be prepped and we want admissions that requires 'zero' preparation. But, what no one understands is preparation is part of life and it is difficult to avoid it. In real life, we say preparation is key to success. I always tell my kids that if they see some done well and looks easy, it only means there is a ton of effort behind it which we don't realize until we try to do it ourselves.

The current admission process is very subjective with out a single data point that evaluates kids on the same scale. If this is not enough, it adds a ton of free booster points to some and telling them they cannot compete any other way. I would rather just allocate quotas openly and let the kids at least compete 'fairly and equally' within their allocate groups. Otherwise, we have no way of knowing how many kids gets boosted by other experience factors each year. Its not really fair to offer kid who edge out due to an extra 200 or 300 booster points over a regular kid who only score a little less due to lack of booster points. Instead, if there is an open quota for booster kids, non-booster kids will at least know that they are in a fair competition with other non boosters and boosters aren't taking away their place. Anyways, this is my take on it.

Sounds like a lottery is the only solution.

I am sure lottery was considered as an option, but probably discarded for two reasons.
1. Feeder schools and schools from north west portion of the county will still get too many admissions due to sheer volume of kids applying. If the implicit goal is to reduce this very thing, then lottery wouldn't really work. Also, if lottery is the thing, even more kids from feeders apply further complicating the end goal.
2. We cannot simply pick someone who has 3.5 against some one who has 4.0 based on the lottery. The new admissions is almost already a lottery in the feeder schools where there are usually 100s of kids with very similar grades and there is no clear way to stop the talent other than a 30min essay and portrait sheet and both of which are super subjective. Now, if the lottery comes into picture, significantly more kids from feeders (and other schools) will apply as all it requires is simple cut-off. TJ is already being diluted in terms of talent (which we will realize in 3-4 years) and lottery will dilute even more.
3. TJ pool kids will not look much different from any honors class (not even AP) at base high school as everyone who has 3.5GPA has the same chance of getting in. It will die down in popularity pretty quickly - I believe its already on the way, but not so much as its still selecting top candidates based on the GPA etc.

Automatically enter every student with a 3.5 GPA who will have completed alegabra 1 by the end of 8th. Problem solved. Ideally keep the geographic set asides, but if that's disallowed, oh well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are all C4TJ parents total dicks? Or just the one on DCUM?

Yes of course they all are. When I lose an argument I resort to abuse. I am such an angel and delightful company.

That would explain the constant stream of C4TJ a-hole posts. Don’t they have anything better to do with your time? Kick puppies?

The lack of self-awareness is ironic.

+1. If you’ve seen the recent rantings of TJAAG leaders like Rachel Lei you’d know they are even more aggressive and obnoxious.

They are complete narcissists who spend all their time trying to remake TJ so they can still bring up TJ in every conversation, but without having to apologize for the school having “too many” Asian kids.

“Both sides”.

Trying to deflect from 67 pages of C4TJ a-hole posts? Hard to do when we can all read them for ourselves.

Let's not forget the smug taunting coming from the pro reform crowd. The repeated posts calling TJ kids cheaters and preppers. The casual accusations of racism and white supremacy. The constant belittling and put downs. Ad hominem after Ad hominem.

This has been going on for months and months. The pro reform crowd haven't been acting like angels.

But I heard some people who spent a lot of money at a prep center had access to the test?

They had access to the test when they were taking it.

This is stupid. I can't believe anyone has seen the test ahead of time. Yes, its possible that a few kids might have known few questions ahead of time if they had taken the test a later date and someone leaked the questions to them, but this is insignificant. However, what is plausible is that the test questions will not fall out of sky and
the prep centers could have extensively prepped them with previous SAT/ACT type questions. Since there can't be infinite variety of problems/questions, well prepped students could have encountered similar questions before. OR those who prepared the test questions gotten lazy and copied the questions from previous tests or books etc.

For example, when I was doing my masters, we had an open book exam. One of the questions came in the test was straight from the book (it was in recommended book list) that only my friend and I had already seen day before and immediately recognized it. It was a difficult problem and only two of us got it correct. Is it our fault, considered cheating or the professor is really lazy? I still don't know for sure, but we never told the professor and couple of other classmates we told just called us lucky bastards

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are all C4TJ parents total dicks? Or just the one on DCUM?

Yes of course they all are. When I lose an argument I resort to abuse. I am such an angel and delightful company.

That would explain the constant stream of C4TJ a-hole posts. Don’t they have anything better to do with your time? Kick puppies?

The lack of self-awareness is ironic.

+1. If you’ve seen the recent rantings of TJAAG leaders like Rachel Lei you’d know they are even more aggressive and obnoxious.

They are complete narcissists who spend all their time trying to remake TJ so they can still bring up TJ in every conversation, but without having to apologize for the school having “too many” Asian kids.

“Both sides”.

Trying to deflect from 67 pages of C4TJ a-hole posts? Hard to do when we can all read them for ourselves.

Let's not forget the smug taunting coming from the pro reform crowd. The repeated posts calling TJ kids cheaters and preppers. The casual accusations of racism and white supremacy. The constant belittling and put downs. Ad hominem after Ad hominem.

This has been going on for months and months. The pro reform crowd haven't been acting like angels.

But I heard some people who spent a lot of money at a prep center had access to the test?

This isn't QUITE true.

What has been confirmed by TJ students who attended Curie Learning Centers (CLC) flagship TJ prep program, a 16-month course costing nearly $5K for entry, is that students in the Class of 2023 and 2024 reported having seen some problems word-for-word on the Quant-Q that they had seen before at Curie.

Now, if you know anything about the Quant-Q, you know that this is essentially impossible unless there were some students in the Class of 2022 or 23, the first two years that the Quant-Q was assessed, who memorized the questions that they saw and brought them back to Curie for use in their TJ Prep program. Quant-Q problems are multi-layered and require a fair amount of native problem-solving ability to attack - unless you have already been taught how to answer their unique types of problems.

It would appear, as with many standardized exams, that the makers of the Quant-Q use a question bank from which to put together the multiple forms of their exams each year, and that Curie students had the privilege of seeing these questions - and more importantly, question types - prior to taking the exam itself.

This is additionally problematic because the Quant-Q markets itself as a secured exam, meaning that anyone who sees it is supposed to sign an NDA agreeing not to share its contents. The reason for this is because the point of the exam is to test how a student deals with a problem that they've never seen before, and whether or not they can quickly and efficiently come up with a solution on their own. The exam is rendered pointless and incredibly easy if students are shown in advance how to handle the different types of problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are all C4TJ parents total dicks? Or just the one on DCUM?

Yes of course they all are. When I lose an argument I resort to abuse. I am such an angel and delightful company.

That would explain the constant stream of C4TJ a-hole posts. Don’t they have anything better to do with your time? Kick puppies?

The lack of self-awareness is ironic.

+1. If you’ve seen the recent rantings of TJAAG leaders like Rachel Lei you’d know they are even more aggressive and obnoxious.

They are complete narcissists who spend all their time trying to remake TJ so they can still bring up TJ in every conversation, but without having to apologize for the school having “too many” Asian kids.

“Both sides”.

Trying to deflect from 67 pages of C4TJ a-hole posts? Hard to do when we can all read them for ourselves.

Let's not forget the smug taunting coming from the pro reform crowd. The repeated posts calling TJ kids cheaters and preppers. The casual accusations of racism and white supremacy. The constant belittling and put downs. Ad hominem after Ad hominem.

This has been going on for months and months. The pro reform crowd haven't been acting like angels.

But I heard some people who spent a lot of money at a prep center had access to the test?

They had access to the test when they were taking it.

This is stupid. I can't believe anyone has seen the test ahead of time. Yes, its possible that a few kids might have known few questions ahead of time if they had taken the test a later date and someone leaked the questions to them, but this is insignificant. However, what is plausible is that the test questions will not fall out of sky and
the prep centers could have extensively prepped them with previous SAT/ACT type questions. Since there can't be infinite variety of problems/questions, well prepped students could have encountered similar questions before. OR those who prepared the test questions gotten lazy and copied the questions from previous tests or books etc.

For example, when I was doing my masters, we had an open book exam. One of the questions came in the test was straight from the book (it was in recommended book list) that only my friend and I had already seen day before and immediately recognized it. It was a difficult problem and only two of us got it correct. Is it our fault, considered cheating or the professor is really lazy? I still don't know for sure, but we never told the professor and couple of other classmates we told just called us lucky bastards

The Quant-Q shares almost no commonalities with SAT or ACT type materials.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are all C4TJ parents total dicks? Or just the one on DCUM?

Yes of course they all are. When I lose an argument I resort to abuse. I am such an angel and delightful company.

That would explain the constant stream of C4TJ a-hole posts. Don’t they have anything better to do with your time? Kick puppies?

The lack of self-awareness is ironic.

+1. If you’ve seen the recent rantings of TJAAG leaders like Rachel Lei you’d know they are even more aggressive and obnoxious.

They are complete narcissists who spend all their time trying to remake TJ so they can still bring up TJ in every conversation, but without having to apologize for the school having “too many” Asian kids.

“Both sides”.

Trying to deflect from 67 pages of C4TJ a-hole posts? Hard to do when we can all read them for ourselves.

Let's not forget the smug taunting coming from the pro reform crowd. The repeated posts calling TJ kids cheaters and preppers. The casual accusations of racism and white supremacy. The constant belittling and put downs. Ad hominem after Ad hominem.

This has been going on for months and months. The pro reform crowd haven't been acting like angels.

But I heard some people who spent a lot of money at a prep center had access to the test?

This isn't QUITE true.

What has been confirmed by TJ students who attended Curie Learning Centers (CLC) flagship TJ prep program, a 16-month course costing nearly $5K for entry, is that students in the Class of 2023 and 2024 reported having seen some problems word-for-word on the Quant-Q that they had seen before at Curie.

Now, if you know anything about the Quant-Q, you know that this is essentially impossible unless there were some students in the Class of 2022 or 23, the first two years that the Quant-Q was assessed, who memorized the questions that they saw and brought them back to Curie for use in their TJ Prep program. Quant-Q problems are multi-layered and require a fair amount of native problem-solving ability to attack - unless you have already been taught how to answer their unique types of problems.

It would appear, as with many standardized exams, that the makers of the Quant-Q use a question bank from which to put together the multiple forms of their exams each year, and that Curie students had the privilege of seeing these questions - and more importantly, question types - prior to taking the exam itself.

This is additionally problematic because the Quant-Q markets itself as a secured exam, meaning that anyone who sees it is supposed to sign an NDA agreeing not to share its contents. The reason for this is because the point of the exam is to test how a student deals with a problem that they've never seen before, and whether or not they can quickly and efficiently come up with a solution on their own. The exam is rendered pointless and incredibly easy if students are shown in advance how to handle the different types of problems.

Ah.. if this is the case i.e., leaking questions after agreeing to NDA is definitely not fair to other students. If there is no NDA, then it doesn't matter. I guess the same problem exists for any standardized test such as ACT, SAT etc.

Even with out the leak, there will only be a limited number of questions (or question types) we can come up with that an above average 8th grader could answer in reasonable time and difficult to prevent prep centers or books to mimic the types of questions for practice. If we try to make it truly unique and difficult like olympiad, then hardly anyone will be able to answer, which defeats the purpose unless we are trying to select a handful of real geniuses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are all C4TJ parents total dicks? Or just the one on DCUM?

Yes of course they all are. When I lose an argument I resort to abuse. I am such an angel and delightful company.

That would explain the constant stream of C4TJ a-hole posts. Don’t they have anything better to do with your time? Kick puppies?

The lack of self-awareness is ironic.

+1. If you’ve seen the recent rantings of TJAAG leaders like Rachel Lei you’d know they are even more aggressive and obnoxious.

They are complete narcissists who spend all their time trying to remake TJ so they can still bring up TJ in every conversation, but without having to apologize for the school having “too many” Asian kids.

“Both sides”.

Trying to deflect from 67 pages of C4TJ a-hole posts? Hard to do when we can all read them for ourselves.

Let's not forget the smug taunting coming from the pro reform crowd. The repeated posts calling TJ kids cheaters and preppers. The casual accusations of racism and white supremacy. The constant belittling and put downs. Ad hominem after Ad hominem.

This has been going on for months and months. The pro reform crowd haven't been acting like angels.

But I heard some people who spent a lot of money at a prep center had access to the test?

This isn't QUITE true.

What has been confirmed by TJ students who attended Curie Learning Centers (CLC) flagship TJ prep program, a 16-month course costing nearly $5K for entry, is that students in the Class of 2023 and 2024 reported having seen some problems word-for-word on the Quant-Q that they had seen before at Curie.

Now, if you know anything about the Quant-Q, you know that this is essentially impossible unless there were some students in the Class of 2022 or 23, the first two years that the Quant-Q was assessed, who memorized the questions that they saw and brought them back to Curie for use in their TJ Prep program. Quant-Q problems are multi-layered and require a fair amount of native problem-solving ability to attack - unless you have already been taught how to answer their unique types of problems.

It would appear, as with many standardized exams, that the makers of the Quant-Q use a question bank from which to put together the multiple forms of their exams each year, and that Curie students had the privilege of seeing these questions - and more importantly, question types - prior to taking the exam itself.

This is additionally problematic because the Quant-Q markets itself as a secured exam, meaning that anyone who sees it is supposed to sign an NDA agreeing not to share its contents. The reason for this is because the point of the exam is to test how a student deals with a problem that they've never seen before, and whether or not they can quickly and efficiently come up with a solution on their own. The exam is rendered pointless and incredibly easy if students are shown in advance how to handle the different types of problems.

Ah.. if this is the case i.e., leaking questions after agreeing to NDA is definitely not fair to other students. If there is no NDA, then it doesn't matter. I guess the same problem exists for any standardized test such as ACT, SAT etc.

Even with out the leak, there will only be a limited number of questions (or question types) we can come up with that an above average 8th grader could answer in reasonable time and difficult to prevent prep centers or books to mimic the types of questions for practice. If we try to make it truly unique and difficult like olympiad, then hardly anyone will be able to answer, which defeats the purpose unless we are trying to select a handful of real geniuses.

So basically children of wealthy families that can afford to drop $5k on prep had a big advantage over everyone else. That seems like a real problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: If we try to make it truly unique and difficult like olympiad, then hardly anyone will be able to answer, which defeats the purpose unless we are trying to select a handful of real geniuses.

Actually, that sounds good to me. They could make a unique and difficult test for selecting the top 50 kids. Then the other 500 can be selected using a lottery of any interested kids taking all Honors with at least a 3.8 middle school GPA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are all C4TJ parents total dicks? Or just the one on DCUM?

Yes of course they all are. When I lose an argument I resort to abuse. I am such an angel and delightful company.

That would explain the constant stream of C4TJ a-hole posts. Don’t they have anything better to do with your time? Kick puppies?

The lack of self-awareness is ironic.

+1. If you’ve seen the recent rantings of TJAAG leaders like Rachel Lei you’d know they are even more aggressive and obnoxious.

They are complete narcissists who spend all their time trying to remake TJ so they can still bring up TJ in every conversation, but without having to apologize for the school having “too many” Asian kids.

“Both sides”.

Trying to deflect from 67 pages of C4TJ a-hole posts? Hard to do when we can all read them for ourselves.

Let's not forget the smug taunting coming from the pro reform crowd. The repeated posts calling TJ kids cheaters and preppers. The casual accusations of racism and white supremacy. The constant belittling and put downs. Ad hominem after Ad hominem.

This has been going on for months and months. The pro reform crowd haven't been acting like angels.

But I heard some people who spent a lot of money at a prep center had access to the test?

This isn't QUITE true.

What has been confirmed by TJ students who attended Curie Learning Centers (CLC) flagship TJ prep program, a 16-month course costing nearly $5K for entry, is that students in the Class of 2023 and 2024 reported having seen some problems word-for-word on the Quant-Q that they had seen before at Curie.

Now, if you know anything about the Quant-Q, you know that this is essentially impossible unless there were some students in the Class of 2022 or 23, the first two years that the Quant-Q was assessed, who memorized the questions that they saw and brought them back to Curie for use in their TJ Prep program. Quant-Q problems are multi-layered and require a fair amount of native problem-solving ability to attack - unless you have already been taught how to answer their unique types of problems.

It would appear, as with many standardized exams, that the makers of the Quant-Q use a question bank from which to put together the multiple forms of their exams each year, and that Curie students had the privilege of seeing these questions - and more importantly, question types - prior to taking the exam itself.

This is additionally problematic because the Quant-Q markets itself as a secured exam, meaning that anyone who sees it is supposed to sign an NDA agreeing not to share its contents. The reason for this is because the point of the exam is to test how a student deals with a problem that they've never seen before, and whether or not they can quickly and efficiently come up with a solution on their own. The exam is rendered pointless and incredibly easy if students are shown in advance how to handle the different types of problems.

Ah.. if this is the case i.e., leaking questions after agreeing to NDA is definitely not fair to other students. If there is no NDA, then it doesn't matter. I guess the same problem exists for any standardized test such as ACT, SAT etc.

Even with out the leak, there will only be a limited number of questions (or question types) we can come up with that an above average 8th grader could answer in reasonable time and difficult to prevent prep centers or books to mimic the types of questions for practice. If we try to make it truly unique and difficult like olympiad, then hardly anyone will be able to answer, which defeats the purpose unless we are trying to select a handful of real geniuses.

So basically children of wealthy families that can afford to drop $5k on prep had a big advantage over everyone else. That seems like a real problem.

I think so. From what I heard, a significant majority of kids who go to curie TJ prep are already in either Level IV or GT programs. Since when the kids are already above average or smarter, its not difficult to conceive that an extra boost given by significant preparation can do wonders. I know curie got more popular, but I heard there are several other, but less visible places, that offer similar TJ prep. I knew at least a few kids who had private tutors doing the similar sort of prep. I wonder what percent of these kids could still have gotten into TJ with out any sort of prep or tutoring.

Bottom line is, if there is test or selection process, then there will be people or places that offer prepping. Its universal and you see it for all sorts of tests in all countries. There is no way around it. Quite a few kids take tutoring classes to improve their school grades. Heck, my grade 3 daughter goes to kumon to improve math skills and I have no intention of stopping her just because some random person on the internet considers this as unfair to other kids in the class!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are all C4TJ parents total dicks? Or just the one on DCUM?

Yes of course they all are. When I lose an argument I resort to abuse. I am such an angel and delightful company.

That would explain the constant stream of C4TJ a-hole posts. Don’t they have anything better to do with your time? Kick puppies?

The lack of self-awareness is ironic.

+1. If you’ve seen the recent rantings of TJAAG leaders like Rachel Lei you’d know they are even more aggressive and obnoxious.

They are complete narcissists who spend all their time trying to remake TJ so they can still bring up TJ in every conversation, but without having to apologize for the school having “too many” Asian kids.

“Both sides”.

Trying to deflect from 67 pages of C4TJ a-hole posts? Hard to do when we can all read them for ourselves.

Let's not forget the smug taunting coming from the pro reform crowd. The repeated posts calling TJ kids cheaters and preppers. The casual accusations of racism and white supremacy. The constant belittling and put downs. Ad hominem after Ad hominem.

This has been going on for months and months. The pro reform crowd haven't been acting like angels.

But I heard some people who spent a lot of money at a prep center had access to the test?

This isn't QUITE true.

What has been confirmed by TJ students who attended Curie Learning Centers (CLC) flagship TJ prep program, a 16-month course costing nearly $5K for entry, is that students in the Class of 2023 and 2024 reported having seen some problems word-for-word on the Quant-Q that they had seen before at Curie.

Now, if you know anything about the Quant-Q, you know that this is essentially impossible unless there were some students in the Class of 2022 or 23, the first two years that the Quant-Q was assessed, who memorized the questions that they saw and brought them back to Curie for use in their TJ Prep program. Quant-Q problems are multi-layered and require a fair amount of native problem-solving ability to attack - unless you have already been taught how to answer their unique types of problems.

It would appear, as with many standardized exams, that the makers of the Quant-Q use a question bank from which to put together the multiple forms of their exams each year, and that Curie students had the privilege of seeing these questions - and more importantly, question types - prior to taking the exam itself.

This is additionally problematic because the Quant-Q markets itself as a secured exam, meaning that anyone who sees it is supposed to sign an NDA agreeing not to share its contents. The reason for this is because the point of the exam is to test how a student deals with a problem that they've never seen before, and whether or not they can quickly and efficiently come up with a solution on their own. The exam is rendered pointless and incredibly easy if students are shown in advance how to handle the different types of problems.

Ah.. if this is the case i.e., leaking questions after agreeing to NDA is definitely not fair to other students. If there is no NDA, then it doesn't matter. I guess the same problem exists for any standardized test such as ACT, SAT etc.

Even with out the leak, there will only be a limited number of questions (or question types) we can come up with that an above average 8th grader could answer in reasonable time and difficult to prevent prep centers or books to mimic the types of questions for practice. If we try to make it truly unique and difficult like olympiad, then hardly anyone will be able to answer, which defeats the purpose unless we are trying to select a handful of real geniuses.

So basically children of wealthy families that can afford to drop $5k on prep had a big advantage over everyone else. That seems like a real problem.

I think so. From what I heard, a significant majority of kids who go to curie TJ prep are already in either Level IV or GT programs. Since when the kids are already above average or smarter, its not difficult to conceive that an extra boost given by significant preparation can do wonders. I know curie got more popular, but I heard there are several other, but less visible places, that offer similar TJ prep. I knew at least a few kids who had private tutors doing the similar sort of prep. I wonder what percent of these kids could still have gotten into TJ with out any sort of prep or tutoring.

Bottom line is, if there is test or selection process, then there will be people or places that offer prepping. Its universal and you see it for all sorts of tests in all countries. There is no way around it. Quite a few kids take tutoring classes to improve their school grades. Heck, my grade 3 daughter goes to kumon to improve math skills and I have no intention of stopping her just because some random person on the internet considers this as unfair to other kids in the class!

You're right about the existence of many other prep companies that make a lot of money off of trying to get kids into TJ. Sunshine, OptimalTJPrep, Kate Dalby... there's even one that is run by a recent TJ graduate called EduAvenues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are all C4TJ parents total dicks? Or just the one on DCUM?

Yes of course they all are. When I lose an argument I resort to abuse. I am such an angel and delightful company.

That would explain the constant stream of C4TJ a-hole posts. Don’t they have anything better to do with your time? Kick puppies?

The lack of self-awareness is ironic.

+1. If you’ve seen the recent rantings of TJAAG leaders like Rachel Lei you’d know they are even more aggressive and obnoxious.

They are complete narcissists who spend all their time trying to remake TJ so they can still bring up TJ in every conversation, but without having to apologize for the school having “too many” Asian kids.

“Both sides”.

Trying to deflect from 67 pages of C4TJ a-hole posts? Hard to do when we can all read them for ourselves.

Let's not forget the smug taunting coming from the pro reform crowd. The repeated posts calling TJ kids cheaters and preppers. The casual accusations of racism and white supremacy. The constant belittling and put downs. Ad hominem after Ad hominem.

This has been going on for months and months. The pro reform crowd haven't been acting like angels.

But I heard some people who spent a lot of money at a prep center had access to the test?

This isn't QUITE true.

What has been confirmed by TJ students who attended Curie Learning Centers (CLC) flagship TJ prep program, a 16-month course costing nearly $5K for entry, is that students in the Class of 2023 and 2024 reported having seen some problems word-for-word on the Quant-Q that they had seen before at Curie.

Now, if you know anything about the Quant-Q, you know that this is essentially impossible unless there were some students in the Class of 2022 or 23, the first two years that the Quant-Q was assessed, who memorized the questions that they saw and brought them back to Curie for use in their TJ Prep program. Quant-Q problems are multi-layered and require a fair amount of native problem-solving ability to attack - unless you have already been taught how to answer their unique types of problems.

It would appear, as with many standardized exams, that the makers of the Quant-Q use a question bank from which to put together the multiple forms of their exams each year, and that Curie students had the privilege of seeing these questions - and more importantly, question types - prior to taking the exam itself.

This is additionally problematic because the Quant-Q markets itself as a secured exam, meaning that anyone who sees it is supposed to sign an NDA agreeing not to share its contents. The reason for this is because the point of the exam is to test how a student deals with a problem that they've never seen before, and whether or not they can quickly and efficiently come up with a solution on their own. The exam is rendered pointless and incredibly easy if students are shown in advance how to handle the different types of problems.

Ah.. if this is the case i.e., leaking questions after agreeing to NDA is definitely not fair to other students. If there is no NDA, then it doesn't matter. I guess the same problem exists for any standardized test such as ACT, SAT etc.

Even with out the leak, there will only be a limited number of questions (or question types) we can come up with that an above average 8th grader could answer in reasonable time and difficult to prevent prep centers or books to mimic the types of questions for practice. If we try to make it truly unique and difficult like olympiad, then hardly anyone will be able to answer, which defeats the purpose unless we are trying to select a handful of real geniuses.

So basically children of wealthy families that can afford to drop $5k on prep had a big advantage over everyone else. That seems like a real problem.

I think so. From what I heard, a significant majority of kids who go to curie TJ prep are already in either Level IV or GT programs. Since when the kids are already above average or smarter, its not difficult to conceive that an extra boost given by significant preparation can do wonders. I know curie got more popular, but I heard there are several other, but less visible places, that offer similar TJ prep. I knew at least a few kids who had private tutors doing the similar sort of prep. I wonder what percent of these kids could still have gotten into TJ with out any sort of prep or tutoring.

Bottom line is, if there is test or selection process, then there will be people or places that offer prepping. Its universal and you see it for all sorts of tests in all countries. There is no way around it. Quite a few kids take tutoring classes to improve their school grades. Heck, my grade 3 daughter goes to kumon to improve math skills and I have no intention of stopping her just because some random person on the internet considers this as unfair to other kids in the class!

A lottery is a great way around it. There is no reason for a public school system to indulge the peppers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are all C4TJ parents total dicks? Or just the one on DCUM?

Yes of course they all are. When I lose an argument I resort to abuse. I am such an angel and delightful company.

That would explain the constant stream of C4TJ a-hole posts. Don’t they have anything better to do with your time? Kick puppies?

The lack of self-awareness is ironic.

+1. If you’ve seen the recent rantings of TJAAG leaders like Rachel Lei you’d know they are even more aggressive and obnoxious.

They are complete narcissists who spend all their time trying to remake TJ so they can still bring up TJ in every conversation, but without having to apologize for the school having “too many” Asian kids.

“Both sides”.

Trying to deflect from 67 pages of C4TJ a-hole posts? Hard to do when we can all read them for ourselves.

Let's not forget the smug taunting coming from the pro reform crowd. The repeated posts calling TJ kids cheaters and preppers. The casual accusations of racism and white supremacy. The constant belittling and put downs. Ad hominem after Ad hominem.

This has been going on for months and months. The pro reform crowd haven't been acting like angels.

But I heard some people who spent a lot of money at a prep center had access to the test?

This isn't QUITE true.

What has been confirmed by TJ students who attended Curie Learning Centers (CLC) flagship TJ prep program, a 16-month course costing nearly $5K for entry, is that students in the Class of 2023 and 2024 reported having seen some problems word-for-word on the Quant-Q that they had seen before at Curie.

Now, if you know anything about the Quant-Q, you know that this is essentially impossible unless there were some students in the Class of 2022 or 23, the first two years that the Quant-Q was assessed, who memorized the questions that they saw and brought them back to Curie for use in their TJ Prep program. Quant-Q problems are multi-layered and require a fair amount of native problem-solving ability to attack - unless you have already been taught how to answer their unique types of problems.

It would appear, as with many standardized exams, that the makers of the Quant-Q use a question bank from which to put together the multiple forms of their exams each year, and that Curie students had the privilege of seeing these questions - and more importantly, question types - prior to taking the exam itself.

This is additionally problematic because the Quant-Q markets itself as a secured exam, meaning that anyone who sees it is supposed to sign an NDA agreeing not to share its contents. The reason for this is because the point of the exam is to test how a student deals with a problem that they've never seen before, and whether or not they can quickly and efficiently come up with a solution on their own. The exam is rendered pointless and incredibly easy if students are shown in advance how to handle the different types of problems.

Ah.. if this is the case i.e., leaking questions after agreeing to NDA is definitely not fair to other students. If there is no NDA, then it doesn't matter. I guess the same problem exists for any standardized test such as ACT, SAT etc.

Even with out the leak, there will only be a limited number of questions (or question types) we can come up with that an above average 8th grader could answer in reasonable time and difficult to prevent prep centers or books to mimic the types of questions for practice. If we try to make it truly unique and difficult like olympiad, then hardly anyone will be able to answer, which defeats the purpose unless we are trying to select a handful of real geniuses.

So basically children of wealthy families that can afford to drop $5k on prep had a big advantage over everyone else. That seems like a real problem.

I think so. From what I heard, a significant majority of kids who go to curie TJ prep are already in either Level IV or GT programs. Since when the kids are already above average or smarter, its not difficult to conceive that an extra boost given by significant preparation can do wonders. I know curie got more popular, but I heard there are several other, but less visible places, that offer similar TJ prep. I knew at least a few kids who had private tutors doing the similar sort of prep. I wonder what percent of these kids could still have gotten into TJ with out any sort of prep or tutoring.

Bottom line is, if there is test or selection process, then there will be people or places that offer prepping. Its universal and you see it for all sorts of tests in all countries. There is no way around it. Quite a few kids take tutoring classes to improve their school grades. Heck, my grade 3 daughter goes to kumon to improve math skills and I have no intention of stopping her just because some random person on the internet considers this as unfair to other kids in the class!

You're right about the existence of many other prep companies that make a lot of money off of trying to get kids into TJ. Sunshine, OptimalTJPrep, Kate Dalby... there's even one that is run by a recent TJ graduate called EduAvenues.

I hear white parents pay $400 per hour for private tutoring of classes, SAT/ACT and for other help while Asian students sit in a prep class for $30 per class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are all C4TJ parents total dicks? Or just the one on DCUM?

Yes of course they all are. When I lose an argument I resort to abuse. I am such an angel and delightful company.

That would explain the constant stream of C4TJ a-hole posts. Don’t they have anything better to do with your time? Kick puppies?

The lack of self-awareness is ironic.

+1. If you’ve seen the recent rantings of TJAAG leaders like Rachel Lei you’d know they are even more aggressive and obnoxious.

They are complete narcissists who spend all their time trying to remake TJ so they can still bring up TJ in every conversation, but without having to apologize for the school having “too many” Asian kids.

“Both sides”.

Trying to deflect from 67 pages of C4TJ a-hole posts? Hard to do when we can all read them for ourselves.

Let's not forget the smug taunting coming from the pro reform crowd. The repeated posts calling TJ kids cheaters and preppers. The casual accusations of racism and white supremacy. The constant belittling and put downs. Ad hominem after Ad hominem.

This has been going on for months and months. The pro reform crowd haven't been acting like angels.

But I heard some people who spent a lot of money at a prep center had access to the test?

This isn't QUITE true.

What has been confirmed by TJ students who attended Curie Learning Centers (CLC) flagship TJ prep program, a 16-month course costing nearly $5K for entry, is that students in the Class of 2023 and 2024 reported having seen some problems word-for-word on the Quant-Q that they had seen before at Curie.

Now, if you know anything about the Quant-Q, you know that this is essentially impossible unless there were some students in the Class of 2022 or 23, the first two years that the Quant-Q was assessed, who memorized the questions that they saw and brought them back to Curie for use in their TJ Prep program. Quant-Q problems are multi-layered and require a fair amount of native problem-solving ability to attack - unless you have already been taught how to answer their unique types of problems.

It would appear, as with many standardized exams, that the makers of the Quant-Q use a question bank from which to put together the multiple forms of their exams each year, and that Curie students had the privilege of seeing these questions - and more importantly, question types - prior to taking the exam itself.

This is additionally problematic because the Quant-Q markets itself as a secured exam, meaning that anyone who sees it is supposed to sign an NDA agreeing not to share its contents. The reason for this is because the point of the exam is to test how a student deals with a problem that they've never seen before, and whether or not they can quickly and efficiently come up with a solution on their own. The exam is rendered pointless and incredibly easy if students are shown in advance how to handle the different types of problems.

Ah.. if this is the case i.e., leaking questions after agreeing to NDA is definitely not fair to other students. If there is no NDA, then it doesn't matter. I guess the same problem exists for any standardized test such as ACT, SAT etc.

Even with out the leak, there will only be a limited number of questions (or question types) we can come up with that an above average 8th grader could answer in reasonable time and difficult to prevent prep centers or books to mimic the types of questions for practice. If we try to make it truly unique and difficult like olympiad, then hardly anyone will be able to answer, which defeats the purpose unless we are trying to select a handful of real geniuses.

So basically children of wealthy families that can afford to drop $5k on prep had a big advantage over everyone else. That seems like a real problem.

I think so. From what I heard, a significant majority of kids who go to curie TJ prep are already in either Level IV or GT programs. Since when the kids are already above average or smarter, its not difficult to conceive that an extra boost given by significant preparation can do wonders. I know curie got more popular, but I heard there are several other, but less visible places, that offer similar TJ prep. I knew at least a few kids who had private tutors doing the similar sort of prep. I wonder what percent of these kids could still have gotten into TJ with out any sort of prep or tutoring.

Bottom line is, if there is test or selection process, then there will be people or places that offer prepping. Its universal and you see it for all sorts of tests in all countries. There is no way around it. Quite a few kids take tutoring classes to improve their school grades. Heck, my grade 3 daughter goes to kumon to improve math skills and I have no intention of stopping her just because some random person on the internet considers this as unfair to other kids in the class!

You're right about the existence of many other prep companies that make a lot of money off of trying to get kids into TJ. Sunshine, OptimalTJPrep, Kate Dalby... there's even one that is run by a recent TJ graduate called EduAvenues.

I hear white parents pay $400 per hour for private tutoring of classes, SAT/ACT and for other help while Asian students sit in a prep class for $30 per class.

Another good reason to get rid of standardized exams as a metric in admissions processes. Well said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are all C4TJ parents total dicks? Or just the one on DCUM?

Yes of course they all are. When I lose an argument I resort to abuse. I am such an angel and delightful company.

That would explain the constant stream of C4TJ a-hole posts. Don’t they have anything better to do with your time? Kick puppies?

The lack of self-awareness is ironic.

+1. If you’ve seen the recent rantings of TJAAG leaders like Rachel Lei you’d know they are even more aggressive and obnoxious.

They are complete narcissists who spend all their time trying to remake TJ so they can still bring up TJ in every conversation, but without having to apologize for the school having “too many” Asian kids.

“Both sides”.

Trying to deflect from 67 pages of C4TJ a-hole posts? Hard to do when we can all read them for ourselves.

Let's not forget the smug taunting coming from the pro reform crowd. The repeated posts calling TJ kids cheaters and preppers. The casual accusations of racism and white supremacy. The constant belittling and put downs. Ad hominem after Ad hominem.

This has been going on for months and months. The pro reform crowd haven't been acting like angels.

But I heard some people who spent a lot of money at a prep center had access to the test?

This isn't QUITE true.

What has been confirmed by TJ students who attended Curie Learning Centers (CLC) flagship TJ prep program, a 16-month course costing nearly $5K for entry, is that students in the Class of 2023 and 2024 reported having seen some problems word-for-word on the Quant-Q that they had seen before at Curie.

Now, if you know anything about the Quant-Q, you know that this is essentially impossible unless there were some students in the Class of 2022 or 23, the first two years that the Quant-Q was assessed, who memorized the questions that they saw and brought them back to Curie for use in their TJ Prep program. Quant-Q problems are multi-layered and require a fair amount of native problem-solving ability to attack - unless you have already been taught how to answer their unique types of problems.

It would appear, as with many standardized exams, that the makers of the Quant-Q use a question bank from which to put together the multiple forms of their exams each year, and that Curie students had the privilege of seeing these questions - and more importantly, question types - prior to taking the exam itself.

This is additionally problematic because the Quant-Q markets itself as a secured exam, meaning that anyone who sees it is supposed to sign an NDA agreeing not to share its contents. The reason for this is because the point of the exam is to test how a student deals with a problem that they've never seen before, and whether or not they can quickly and efficiently come up with a solution on their own. The exam is rendered pointless and incredibly easy if students are shown in advance how to handle the different types of problems.

Ah.. if this is the case i.e., leaking questions after agreeing to NDA is definitely not fair to other students. If there is no NDA, then it doesn't matter. I guess the same problem exists for any standardized test such as ACT, SAT etc.

Even with out the leak, there will only be a limited number of questions (or question types) we can come up with that an above average 8th grader could answer in reasonable time and difficult to prevent prep centers or books to mimic the types of questions for practice. If we try to make it truly unique and difficult like olympiad, then hardly anyone will be able to answer, which defeats the purpose unless we are trying to select a handful of real geniuses.

So basically children of wealthy families that can afford to drop $5k on prep had a big advantage over everyone else. That seems like a real problem.

I think so. From what I heard, a significant majority of kids who go to curie TJ prep are already in either Level IV or GT programs. Since when the kids are already above average or smarter, its not difficult to conceive that an extra boost given by significant preparation can do wonders. I know curie got more popular, but I heard there are several other, but less visible places, that offer similar TJ prep. I knew at least a few kids who had private tutors doing the similar sort of prep. I wonder what percent of these kids could still have gotten into TJ with out any sort of prep or tutoring.

Bottom line is, if there is test or selection process, then there will be people or places that offer prepping. Its universal and you see it for all sorts of tests in all countries. There is no way around it. Quite a few kids take tutoring classes to improve their school grades. Heck, my grade 3 daughter goes to kumon to improve math skills and I have no intention of stopping her just because some random person on the internet considers this as unfair to other kids in the class!

You're right about the existence of many other prep companies that make a lot of money off of trying to get kids into TJ. Sunshine, OptimalTJPrep, Kate Dalby... there's even one that is run by a recent TJ graduate called EduAvenues.

I hear white parents pay $400 per hour for private tutoring of classes, SAT/ACT and for other help while Asian students sit in a prep class for $30 per class.

SELF-BURN!!!