Including young adult not on good terms with in family vacation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have experience with this as the kid who was left out.

If you leave them out and your other children are invited, there are ramifications. From there on out, they are correct to be bitter about you.

What is their responsibility to be respectful? Is it ok to announce you only came on the trip because “it’s free”, etc?

These are just words. They don't have as much weight as rejecting a young adult. Why has this person not succeeded? If their cognitive reasoning isn't great, then it stands to reason that they would also blurt out hurtful stuff without thinking. They will probably not change, but do they actually hate you, OP? Probably not.

True. I can get over the rude comments directed toward the parents.
The most upsetting thing they did was being really mean to a sibling. Not going to post the details, but it was mean spirited and ended up with older sibling in tears. This child tends to be an instigator and likes to poke people.

Yeah, you scapegoat this child. You view them as the problem in the family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

It was relevant to me because we still financially support the children in college and therefore pay for their vacations with no question. The one who dropped out is self-supporting.
For our family, if you're a student, we provide financial support. That's pretty common. They can stay on our health insurance for example, but not if they drop from school. That's all.

So say one of the older kids is a college graduate next year, but doesn’t have a job in their field and is working at J Crew to make money. They likely couldn’t afford their “share” of a family vacation, are you going to exclude them, too? I suspect not. You are looking for reasons to exclude this child. I am sure there is a lot of history as to why this child acts the way they do around you.

I have no idea as we haven’t gotten there yet. I suspect you don’t have a child this difficult if you are so accusatory. Most relationships aren’t one person’s fault although the answer seems to always be “blame the mom”.

If YOU choose to treat your children with different levels of favortism then yes, it’s absolutely a “blame the parent” situation. You sound willfully ignorant of how your behavior is affecting this relationship. You’d rather bestow money and praise and vacations on the golden children and keep one locked up in the basement eating their crusts. You don’t think kids pick up on this??

Well you’re picking and choosing what you want to see. This child has gotten more resources and time from us than any other child in our family. We have tried so dang hard. Do you enjoy being around people that make you walk on eggshells? That ignore anything you tell them while you watch them make terrible choices? That choose to ignore you unless they want something? It’s exhausting and depressing. I have tried to treat my kids as equally as possible but of course it doesn’t come off that way when one doesn’t call or respond to texts. Of course I am closer to the ones who actually call and are kind. The ones that say thank you and don’t act like a-holes to other people on a trip? That doesn’t mean I am scapegoating. It means I am a human being with feelings.

This thread has stopped being helpful - so I will stop responding now. - op

It’s hard to put yourself out there, so kudos to you, OP.

Even if only for confirmation, it likely would be very beneficial for you to talk one-on-one, individually, with a psychodynamic/family systems therapist to help work through your feelings and possible next steps.

Your adult child who's especially challenging at the moment is still your kid, who you obviously care about, and a detached professional can often offer a helpful perspective.

Truthfully, it’s not your job to field how your kids interact and get along once they’re adults, and since you’ve mentioned a few times that you’re playing referee, it also might be worth holding off on this vacation as a family (as another pp suggested), until things are calmer. Why not take a break and get away with just your spouse for some genuine relaxation?

Families can go through rough patches, and hopefully with some time and tlc for everyone, things will eventually become more stable and peaceful. Best to you.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe pass on the group trip and invite everyone to come visit you at home on their schedule (offer to pay for their transportation). Then they can decide if they want to plan with a sibling or just come on their own, or not come at all. Put the ball in the middle kid's court to figure out.

Some of these posters are being particularly harsh. You do have a responsibility to all your children and it's not fair to solely index on the problem child at the expense of others. I have a friend in her 50s whose parents did that with her younger brother who is an alcoholic and pretty darn mean and she is so mad at them, and attending therapy herself, for years of expecting her to put up with it and always forcing his inclusion because she was more agreeable and better adjusted. It's such a difficult situation to be in as parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I think what matters more is the actual rift and reasons why. Do they feel lesser than the other kids in your eyes ? Because if so the sane route is to get some distance and the behavior is understandable. What discussion has occurred with them about how they feel?

We don’t actually know why. We have sent them to therapist after therapist. They don’t want to be in college and dropped out. Some (fairly minor) charges from traffic courts. They probably do feel lesser than the older siblings who are successful in college. They tend to just not respond when we try to discuss things.

Is it not bothering you, upsetting you beyond figuring out logistics?

Of course it is. Please be kind. We have tried and tried and tried and gotten no where. I am comfortable with how I’ve handled this situation - it sucks but I can’t change this child’s course until they are ready.
I’m only asking because I am conflicted on this issue. Of course my gut says include everyone but at some point I also need to protect my own self and other kids. I’m asking how to set boundaries so they don’t ruin other people’s family time.

Therapists can't do anything if there is actually a psychiatric and/or learning disorders that are undiagnosed and untreated, OP. Did you have them evaluated at some point as a child? It's very common for people with ADHD, anxiety, depression, or for example dyslexia, to feel "less than". I have a friend couple who ignored all the warnings from teachers about their kid's reading issues, and then were surprised when at 16, she asked for an evaluation herself. It turns out she has dyslexia and ADHD. She is not going to college. It's too late to turn things around. You can bet they're kicking themselves.

To your other point about their sibling relationships, perhaps you can survey your kids and relatives who will be attending and ask whether it's OK that this young person come.

Yep. I am guessing learning disability/psychiatric needs/neurodivergence that went unsupported.

I failed out of college and had a very strained relationship with my family and they went on vacation (the Bahamas) without me. It was the final straw for me. It took me years, but I figured out my own needs, and eventually graduated from not only college but law school. To this day I have anger (I'd even say rage) issues about the lack of support (including that Bahamas trip) and resent how successful I could have been earlier if I'd just had the support I needed.

Were you deliberately mean to your siblings?

I don't condone not emotionally supporting a kid because they drop out of college, but if you were a bully to your siblings, your parents have a responsibility to them too. If not, your comparison is a fraction of the story and I'd say not even the most critical part.

[Anonymous]

I’m getting ready for my sibling’s funeral.

My sibling was a middle child with challenging behaviors and antagonistic behaviors.

My sibling died from their mental illness, alone and before their time.

This sibling created many a challenge on holidays and vacations.

When it’s all said and done, we always tried our best to welcome, support and love this family member even if their mental illness and behaviors made things difficult.

I am filled now with sadness and a void—a void that existed for many years of estrangement and now permanent.

I would offer the perspective that you can only control your own actions and reactions. Looking back, I know I did my very best to be inclusive and to let that person know that they were loved, even if it was not able to be received .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I would cancel vacation instead of choosing to blacklist one of my children.

+1. You won’t “teach them a lesson”. They are obviously struggling, as are you, with their life and current situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

It was relevant to me because we still financially support the children in college and therefore pay for their vacations with no question. The one who dropped out is self-supporting.
For our family, if you're a student, we provide financial support. That's pretty common. They can stay on our health insurance for example, but not if they drop from school. That's all.

So say one of the older kids is a college graduate next year, but doesn’t have a job in their field and is working at J Crew to make money. They likely couldn’t afford their “share” of a family vacation, are you going to exclude them, too? I suspect not. You are looking for reasons to exclude this child. I am sure there is a lot of history as to why this child acts the way they do around you.

I have no idea as we haven’t gotten there yet. I suspect you don’t have a child this difficult if you are so accusatory. Most relationships aren’t one person’s fault although the answer seems to always be “blame the mom”.

If YOU choose to treat your children with different levels of favortism then yes, it’s absolutely a “blame the parent” situation. You sound willfully ignorant of how your behavior is affecting this relationship. You’d rather bestow money and praise and vacations on the golden children and keep one locked up in the basement eating their crusts. You don’t think kids pick up on this??

Well you’re picking and choosing what you want to see. This child has gotten more resources and time from us than any other child in our family. We have tried so dang hard. Do you enjoy being around people that make you walk on eggshells? That ignore anything you tell them while you watch them make terrible choices? That choose to ignore you unless they want something? It’s exhausting and depressing. I have tried to treat my kids as equally as possible but of course it doesn’t come off that way when one doesn’t call or respond to texts. Of course I am closer to the ones who actually call and are kind. The ones that say thank you and don’t act like a-holes to other people on a trip? That doesn’t mean I am scapegoating. It means I am a human being with feelings.

This thread has stopped being helpful - so I will stop responding now. - op

It’s hard to put yourself out there, so kudos to you, OP.

Even if only for confirmation, it likely would be very beneficial for you to talk one-on-one, individually, with a psychodynamic/family systems therapist to help work through your feelings and possible next steps.

Your adult child who's especially challenging at the moment is still your kid, who you obviously care about, and a detached professional can often offer a helpful perspective.

Truthfully, it’s not your job to field how your kids interact and get along once they’re adults, and since you’ve mentioned a few times that you’re playing referee, it also might be worth holding off on this vacation as a family (as another pp suggested), until things are calmer. Why not take a break and get away with just your spouse for some genuine relaxation?

Families can go through rough patches, and hopefully with some time and tlc for everyone, things will eventually become more stable and peaceful. Best to you.

This. The triangulation here is dysfunctional and you are stoking that dysfunction. Your children can walk away, not engage, etc. Sibling relationships are challenging, more so when one child perceives themselves on the outside with parents, but it’s not your job to referee as a parent. Don’t get involved because your biases and what not will be present and create rivalry amongst your kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can’t imagine leaving out one of my kids from a vacation, even if they had dropped out of college (I don’t even see why that point would be relevant - it’s not like even a hard working 20 yr old could afford to join you on such a vacation). If you are inviting and paying for your 4 other kids to go on this vacation, to me it is clear that you should be inviting and paying for this kid to go, too.

It sucks that this kid is prickly, it sucks that another one of your kids and this kid don’t get along. I’d focus on that last point. Is it possible for those two kids to go to a couple of therapy sessions together, for the sake of their relationship generally, not this trip specifically. Also I’d set clear expectations for behaviors before the trip happens, and don’t single out any one kid or cite old incidents. E.g., if someone is verbally rude, call them out on it at that moment. Don’t take sides. If there are shared rooms, have this middle child share with the younger siblings.

It was relevant to me because we still financially support the children in college and therefore pay for their vacations with no question. The one who dropped out is self-supporting.
For our family, if you're a student, we provide financial support. That's pretty common. They can stay on our health insurance for example, but not if they drop from school. That's all.

So say one of the older kids is a college graduate next year, but doesn’t have a job in their field and is working at J Crew to make money. They likely couldn’t afford their “share” of a family vacation, are you going to exclude them, too? I suspect not. You are looking for reasons to exclude this child. I am sure there is a lot of history as to why this child acts the way they do around you.

I have no idea as we haven’t gotten there yet. I suspect you don’t have a child this difficult if you are so accusatory. Most relationships aren’t one person’s fault although the answer seems to always be “blame the mom”.

If YOU choose to treat your children with different levels of favortism then yes, it’s absolutely a “blame the parent” situation. You sound willfully ignorant of how your behavior is affecting this relationship. You’d rather bestow money and praise and vacations on the golden children and keep one locked up in the basement eating their crusts. You don’t think kids pick up on this??

Well you’re picking and choosing what you want to see. This child has gotten more resources and time from us than any other child in our family. We have tried so dang hard. Do you enjoy being around people that make you walk on eggshells? That ignore anything you tell them while you watch them make terrible choices? That choose to ignore you unless they want something? It’s exhausting and depressing. I have tried to treat my kids as equally as possible but of course it doesn’t come off that way when one doesn’t call or respond to texts. Of course I am closer to the ones who actually call and are kind. The ones that say thank you and don’t act like a-holes to other people on a trip? That doesn’t mean I am scapegoating. It means I am a human being with feelings.

This thread has stopped being helpful - so I will stop responding now. - op

Not to put too fine a point on it, but: you don’t get to be “a human being with feelings” first. You are a parent first. It has been this way since your first child was an infant; this can’t be news.

[Anonymous]

Middle child syndrome? I think birth order may have something to do with it.
Lost in the shuffle. Not sure which tribe of siblings they fit in with. It has been this way their whole life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For people saying OP must include the adult child, at what point do you think OP is off the hook for paying for an adult child's vacation? My parents stopped paying for me after I finished college, which seems reasonable. They also took my younger siblings on spring break trips when I was in college, which I couldn't attend because our spring breaks didn't align. This also seems reasonable.

I think there is probably a natural point where the parents are off the hook with paying vs. some defined moment. It depends on the dynamics. We have an only child, and I would probably pay or offer to pay for his vacation with us up until he gets married/ has a significant other. He wants to be independent and has said he feels embarrassed when I pay for things publicly. He certainly wouldn't find it tolerable for me to pay for him in front of a girlfriend/spouse.

I would pay for any vacation with us. Not paying otherwise once they are adults.

[Anonymous]

How many siblings are in this family? At least 5?

[Anonymous]

To restate the question: I have a child who is struggling and has been for a long time. I understandably am tired or dealing with the challenges of this difficult child when my other children are easier. Can I exclude the difficult child who has been struggling in life for a long time from our family vacation and still be a good mom?

[Anonymous]

Dropping out of college and a few minor traffic violations are neither here nor there. These are all just red herrings when it comes to the crux of the issue: that this adult child treated people poorly to the point of tears on last year's vacation, and the OP is trying to avoid a repeat. A question: why are the older siblings done with this person? And how many vacations has this child's hostility ruined? If last year was a one-off, the OP might invite the middle child with the stipulation that there are standards for everyone's behavior. But if last year wasn't an aberration, then the OP has every right to prioritize the well-being of the other kids in the family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Middle child syndrome? I think birth order may have something to do with it.
Lost in the shuffle. Not sure which tribe of siblings they fit in with. It has been this way their whole life.

That's not a given. ~ Peacemaker middle child with a cranky first sibling

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To restate the question: I have a child who is struggling and has been for a long time. I understandably am tired or dealing with the challenges of this difficult child when my other children are easier. Can I exclude the difficult child who has been struggling in life for a long time from our family vacation and still be a good mom?

Parenting is a tough job. Don't feel like you are a bad mom for feeling exhausted.

[Anonymous]

I think the kid accepting the invite shows they are seeking connection with the family. Yes, even if it’s a nice vacation, I think most people who actually hate their families and don’t want a relationship would decline.

Clearly they are not doing well and they probably are in a dark place and not fun to be around. But in my opinion, it would be pretty cruel to exclude one child from a family vacation because they are struggling.

I would invite them and use it as an opportunity to know them better or would cancel it.