Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I agree with you but the bigger question is: should it be illegal for women to make choices that most of us think are too risky? Should people be charged with manslaughter and child neglect?"

The law apparently says yes. And, not only in this context, but also where parents make decisions to withhold medical care from their children, even when providing the care conflicts with their religious beliefs.

The law doesn't necessarily say yes but it's true that some judges have ruled that this is the case. As far as the manslaughter charge goes, I think the state of VA is throwing every charge they can possibly think of at Karen Carr to see if anything sticks. There is no specific law against breech homebirth- there is only a law against a CPM practicing without a license.

[Anonymous]

"I agree with you but the bigger question is: should it be illegal for women to make choices that most of us think are too risky? Should people be charged with manslaughter and child neglect?"

The mother isn't charged here just the midwife.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I agree with you but the bigger question is: should it be illegal for women to make choices that most of us think are too risky? Should people be charged with manslaughter and child neglect?"

The mother isn't charged here just the midwife.

Right, but should the midwife be charged with these felonies or should she be charged with practicing without a license?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I agree with you but the bigger question is: should it be illegal for women to make choices that most of us think are too risky? Should people be charged with manslaughter and child neglect?"

The mother isn't charged here just the midwife.

Right, but should the midwife be charged with these felonies or should she be charged with practicing without a license?

nvoluntary manslaughter
: manslaughter resulting from the failure to perform a legal duty expressly required to safeguard human life, from the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to a felony, or from the commission of a lawful act involving a risk of injury or death that is done in an unlawful, reckless, or grossly negligent manner —see also reckless homicide at HOMICIDE
NOTE: The exact formulation of the elements of involuntary manslaughter vary from state to state esp. with regard to the level of negligence required. In states that grade manslaughter by degrees, involuntary manslaughter is usually graded as a second- or third-degree offense.

Reading the definition above, I would say, "Yes", charge the midwife with manslaughter. She performed an unlawful act (practicing midwifery without a license), which led to the death of a baby. Even if she did have a license, it could be argued that her behavior (delivering a high risk mom at home) was negligent and led to the baby's death.

[Anonymous]

I just don't think it's at all true that "probably both of you" will die in the event of a UR at home, or in the hospital.

.

... and that would be because you don't know WTH you're talking about. ... and you're quoting random tidbits from the NIH website out of context.

[Anonymous]

For the pro-homebirth ob -- can you reliably determine who is really low-risk? How many times do you have a patient you think is going to be low-risk that turns out to have a complicated delivery?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I just don't think it's at all true that "probably both of you" will die in the event of a UR at home, or in the hospital.

.

... and that would be because you don't know WTH you're talking about. ... and you're quoting random tidbits from the NIH website out of context.

How are they out of context? I'm guessing the only proper context within which anyone should consider statistics is within the mind of an OB, L&D nurse, or maybe a CNM.

[Anonymous]

Just found out about Karen and am so sad.
Karen delivered my son a year ago and I was in labor for 72 hard hours. I delivered a very healthy 8 lber. I had had my daughter in a hospital years prior and from the drugs they gave me, she had momentarily stopped breathing post-birth twice. Also, the nurse kept pushing for an epidural. Her words exactly, "Why don't you get an epidural. Everyone gets an epidural." I was in labor for 12hours at the hospital. Also,the doctor was strongly suggesting Pitocin because I wouldn't dilate and I agreed to him rupturing my membrane. Both pregnancies normal, outcomes different. Along with other hospital-related factors, I opted for the home-birth this time and would do it again in a heart beat. To me a home-birth is more controlled, less intrusive and there is LESS opportunity for infection.

For one thing, your partner HAS to be more involved, in the prep, birth and post-birth activities. In my case he was involved in ALL 72hors of labor and you would have thought he pushed the baby out.

Re: broken arm birth story. Waiting a few days is nothing. When my daughter was 5 she broke her arm somehow playing on a moon-bounce. Noticed her guarding her arm and went to the ER 2 days later and they didn't think it was broken until the XRay came back. The problem came when trying to find a doctor who wanted to set her arm. No regular Ortho wanted to touch it because of liability issues if it came out wrong. Our only other option was to wait several weeks (I lie to you not) for an appt at Hopkins! Finally we found an Ortho who was willing to look at the XRays and if it wasn't too severe (it wasn't) a break would set it.

Anyway, would use Karen again and would encourage other woman to consider this beautiful option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just found out about Karen and am so sad.
Karen delivered my son a year ago and I was in labor for 72 hard hours. I delivered a very healthy 8 lber. I had had my daughter in a hospital years prior and from the drugs they gave me, she had momentarily stopped breathing post-birth twice. Also, the nurse kept pushing for an epidural. Her words exactly, "Why don't you get an epidural. Everyone gets an epidural." I was in labor for 12hours at the hospital. Also,the doctor was strongly suggesting Pitocin because I wouldn't dilate and I agreed to him rupturing my membrane. Both pregnancies normal, outcomes different. Along with other hospital-related factors, I opted for the home-birth this time and would do it again in a heart beat. To me a home-birth is more controlled, less intrusive and there is LESS opportunity for infection.

For one thing, your partner HAS to be more involved, in the prep, birth and post-birth activities. In my case he was involved in ALL 72hors of labor and you would have thought he pushed the baby out.

Re: broken arm birth story. Waiting a few days is nothing. When my daughter was 5 she broke her arm somehow playing on a moon-bounce. Noticed her guarding her arm and went to the ER 2 days later and they didn't think it was broken until the XRay came back. The problem came when trying to find a doctor who wanted to set her arm. No regular Ortho wanted to touch it because of liability issues if it came out wrong. Our only other option was to wait several weeks (I lie to you not) for an appt at Hopkins! Finally we found an Ortho who was willing to look at the XRays and if it wasn't too severe (it wasn't) a break would set it.

Anyway, would use Karen again and would encourage other woman to consider this beautiful option.

It's always an interesting psychological observation. Many in the pro-homebirth camp express a history of disturbing or traumatic birth experiences in a hospital. Many cite drugs and interventions that were used without approval or explanation by pushy doctors who were motivated by money or time constraints or a tee time. The poster above says that the doctors gave her drugs and because of those drugs the baby twice stopped breathing. However when a baby stops breathing in a homebirth, the midwife or the parents will be quick to say that medical science could not prove the precise reason for the breathing trouble. It's interesting that when something goes wrong at a home birth, such as a dead baby, baby stops breathing, preventable brain damage ruins a child's future, etc., according to the mother or father it is not the midwife's actions that caused this. Instead, it is the sad fact that bad things can happen to good people, things just go wrong, no one to blame here/move on, bad things happen in hospitals too, etc. I find it troubling how the human mind can justify the exceptional risks of homebirth and use whatever reasoning seems comfortable despite the gap of logic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just found out about Karen and am so sad.
Karen delivered my son a year ago and I was in labor for 72 hard hours. I delivered a very healthy 8 lber. I had had my daughter in a hospital years prior and from the drugs they gave me, she had momentarily stopped breathing post-birth twice. Also, the nurse kept pushing for an epidural. Her words exactly, "Why don't you get an epidural. Everyone gets an epidural." I was in labor for 12hours at the hospital. Also,the doctor was strongly suggesting Pitocin because I wouldn't dilate and I agreed to him rupturing my membrane. Both pregnancies normal, outcomes different. Along with other hospital-related factors, I opted for the home-birth this time and would do it again in a heart beat. To me a home-birth is more controlled, less intrusive and there is LESS opportunity for infection.

For one thing, your partner HAS to be more involved, in the prep, birth and post-birth activities. In my case he was involved in ALL 72hors of labor and you would have thought he pushed the baby out.

Re: broken arm birth story. Waiting a few days is nothing. When my daughter was 5 she broke her arm somehow playing on a moon-bounce. Noticed her guarding her arm and went to the ER 2 days later and they didn't think it was broken until the XRay came back. The problem came when trying to find a doctor who wanted to set her arm. No regular Ortho wanted to touch it because of liability issues if it came out wrong. Our only other option was to wait several weeks (I lie to you not) for an appt at Hopkins! Finally we found an Ortho who was willing to look at the XRays and if it wasn't too severe (it wasn't) a break would set it.

Anyway, would use Karen again and would encourage other woman to consider this beautiful option.

It's always an interesting psychological observation. Many in the pro-homebirth camp express a history of disturbing or traumatic birth experiences in a hospital. Many cite drugs and interventions that were used without approval or explanation by pushy doctors who were motivated by money or time constraints or a tee time. The poster above says that the doctors gave her drugs and because of those drugs the baby twice stopped breathing. However when a baby stops breathing in a homebirth, the midwife or the parents will be quick to say that medical science could not prove the precise reason for the breathing trouble. It's interesting that when something goes wrong at a home birth, such as a dead baby, baby stops breathing, preventable brain damage ruins a child's future, etc., according to the mother or father it is not the midwife's actions that caused this. Instead, it is the sad fact that bad things can happen to good people, things just go wrong, no one to blame here/move on, bad things happen in hospitals too, etc. I find it troubling how the human mind can justify the exceptional risks of homebirth and use whatever reasoning seems comfortable despite the gap of logic.

Interesting comment. I also found the comment you quoted quite disturbing "Just found out about Karen and am so sad." What about grief for the poor dead baby and the parents who must be going through hell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Before my son was born, I thought that the birth experience was all about me.

AMEN. Birth is part of parenthood, where NOTHING is about you anymore. It's going to hurt and you'll beg for it to be over - no experience is great. Safety first, however that needs to happen.

I never thought that the birth experience was "all about me" but I never thought it WASN'T about me either.

It's NOT about you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just found out about Karen and am so sad.
Karen delivered my son a year ago and I was in labor for 72 hard hours. I delivered a very healthy 8 lber. I had had my daughter in a hospital years prior and from the drugs they gave me, she had momentarily stopped breathing post-birth twice. Also, the nurse kept pushing for an epidural. Her words exactly, "Why don't you get an epidural. Everyone gets an epidural." I was in labor for 12hours at the hospital. Also,the doctor was strongly suggesting Pitocin because I wouldn't dilate and I agreed to him rupturing my membrane. Both pregnancies normal, outcomes different. Along with other hospital-related factors, I opted for the home-birth this time and would do it again in a heart beat. To me a home-birth is more controlled, less intrusive and there is LESS opportunity for infection.

For one thing, your partner HAS to be more involved, in the prep, birth and post-birth activities. In my case he was involved in ALL 72hors of labor and you would have thought he pushed the baby out.

Re: broken arm birth story. Waiting a few days is nothing. When my daughter was 5 she broke her arm somehow playing on a moon-bounce. Noticed her guarding her arm and went to the ER 2 days later and they didn't think it was broken until the XRay came back. The problem came when trying to find a doctor who wanted to set her arm. No regular Ortho wanted to touch it because of liability issues if it came out wrong. Our only other option was to wait several weeks (I lie to you not) for an appt at Hopkins! Finally we found an Ortho who was willing to look at the XRays and if it wasn't too severe (it wasn't) a break would set it.

Anyway, would use Karen again and would encourage other woman to consider this beautiful option.

It's always an interesting psychological observation. Many in the pro-homebirth camp express a history of disturbing or traumatic birth experiences in a hospital. Many cite drugs and interventions that were used without approval or explanation by pushy doctors who were motivated by money or time constraints or a tee time. The poster above says that the doctors gave her drugs and because of those drugs the baby twice stopped breathing. However when a baby stops breathing in a homebirth, the midwife or the parents will be quick to say that medical science could not prove the precise reason for the breathing trouble. It's interesting that when something goes wrong at a home birth, such as a dead baby, baby stops breathing, preventable brain damage ruins a child's future, etc., according to the mother or father it is not the midwife's actions that caused this. Instead, it is the sad fact that bad things can happen to good people, things just go wrong, no one to blame here/move on, bad things happen in hospitals too, etc. I find it troubling how the human mind can justify the exceptional risks of homebirth and use whatever reasoning seems comfortable despite the gap of logic.

I think there are logic gaps in both the homebirth camp and the hospital birth camp in terms of justifying risks. As we all know, risks are inevitable. It's all about where women feel most comfortable giving birth. If someone feels most comfortable at home, they will justify all that the risks that go along with that as being OK. If someone feels most comfortable in a hospital, justifications are made for the risks encountered there as well. I think people should stop being so judgmental of those who have a different comfort zone than themselves. Have your baby where you feel comfortable, secure and safe having your baby and stop picking apart those who have preferences that are different from yours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The human body has a total of about 6 to 8 liters of blood ie 6000 to 8000 liters. A pregnant full term uterus receives approximately 600 cc per minute. When the uterus ruptures you have about 10 minutes to get the kid out and pack the uterus. I am an obgyn. I have had a a patient rupture her uterus. Both are fine. No ambulance will get you to the or fast enough. Let's stop all this foolishness. Home births are wonderful experiences for low risk patients. Vbacs, twins, malpresentation, primip breeches, previas, vasoprevia, succenturiate lobes, uncontrolled diabetics are not low risk. If you or your practitioner takes on the risk then you both should deal with the consequences including fetal and maternal death. Yes babies do die in the hospital but at least those parents can sleep knowing that they did everything they could to ensure a safe delivery. People spend years trying to get pregnant. Once you pee on the stick and it turns positive, you become a parent right then and there--in the bathroom. Your only job is to worry and protect your child. So, you give up mercury ridden fish, caffeine, and refined sugar. You suffer without cold medicine and sleep because you would do anything for your child. Why when it counts would you put your birth needs over your baby's. Just something to think about. Ps: I think midwives are wonderful, I think homebirths are great for certain people, and despite the uterine rupture I still encourage vbacs.

I agree with you but the bigger question is: should it be illegal for women to make choices that most of us think are too risky? Should people be charged with manslaughter and child neglect?

That's a complicated legal issue given the right to abortions in many states, which implies that life (and responsibility thereto) does not begin at conception. I guess in every state, accountability could begin at the point in the pregnancy where abortion is currently illegal. However, there are gray areas such as "intent to bring a child to term" that could be factored in, but obviously it will quickly become a women’s rights to her body/choice issue. Sticky, and possibly part of why currently only the midwife is accused of anything since she committed the clearer crime of practicing without her license in that state.

Personally, I think it’s worth tackling – not just for this but for drug and alcohol exposed babies. There must be a middle-ground between 1984 control over women and protecting unborn children who will indeed, be born.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Before my son was born, I thought that the birth experience was all about me.

AMEN. Birth is part of parenthood, where NOTHING is about you anymore. It's going to hurt and you'll beg for it to be over - no experience is great. Safety first, however that needs to happen.

I never thought that the birth experience was "all about me" but I never thought it WASN'T about me either.

It's NOT about you.

This comment seems really hateful to me. The mother's state of mind and feelings during birth can have a profound impact on the birth outcome. Does this person think that the mother is totally irrelevant in this HUGE thing that her body is doing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Before my son was born, I thought that the birth experience was all about me.

AMEN. Birth is part of parenthood, where NOTHING is about you anymore. It's going to hurt and you'll beg for it to be over - no experience is great. Safety first, however that needs to happen.

I never thought that the birth experience was "all about me" but I never thought it WASN'T about me either.

It's NOT about you.

Not the PP but you must be joking. So the woman giving birth has no importance whatsoever? No one is saying that the baby is not important but are you saying the mother is NOT important? That's just crazy talk. The lives, health and well-being of mother and baby are both equally important.