Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Before my son was born, I thought that the birth experience was all about me.

AMEN. Birth is part of parenthood, where NOTHING is about you anymore. It's going to hurt and you'll beg for it to be over - no experience is great. Safety first, however that needs to happen.

I never thought that the birth experience was "all about me" but I never thought it WASN'T about me either.

It's NOT about you.

Not the PP but you must be joking. So the woman giving birth has no importance whatsoever? No one is saying that the baby is not important but are you saying the mother is NOT important? That's just crazy talk. The lives, health and well-being of mother and baby are both equally important.

People who talk in bumper-sticker-ese aren't really into complexity of thought.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just found out about Karen and am so sad.
Karen ... this beautiful option.

I find it troubling how the human mind can justify the exceptional risks of homebirth and use whatever reasoning seems comfortable despite the gap of logic.

I think there are logic gaps in both the homebirth camp and the hospital birth camp in terms of justifying risks. As we all know, risks are inevitable. It's all about where women feel most comfortable giving birth. If someone feels most comfortable at home, they will justify all that the risks that go along with that as being OK. If someone feels most comfortable in a hospital, justifications are made for the risks encountered there as well. I think people should stop being so judgmental of those who have a different comfort zone than themselves. Have your baby where you feel comfortable, secure and safe having your baby and stop picking apart those who have preferences that are different from yours.

I am the PP above and I take issue with your framing this as a "preference" issue. The same reason that I gasp and shake my head at homebirth, especially with an unlicensed provider who practices alone and illegally, is a similar reason why I gasp and shake my head when I see a toddler standing in the back of a vehicle (without a seatbelt or child safety seat) in a car on the highway or why I sneer when I see a parent or grandparent holding a child with one arm while driving a riding lawn mower. These are tragedies waiting to happen that are PREVENTABLE. I am jaded and biased and cynical because I've seen firsthand the pure tragedies that end up in the ER or in the witness room at the police department. The reckless disregard for some dependent's safety and well-being should not be considered a "preference" of someone else. Humans are supposed to exercise judgment and caution. That is why we've made it this far. That is why we created bicycle helmets, seatbelts, smoke detectors, and OBs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Before my son was born, I thought that the birth experience was all about me.

AMEN. Birth is part of parenthood, where NOTHING is about you anymore. It's going to hurt and you'll beg for it to be over - no experience is great. Safety first, however that needs to happen.

I never thought that the birth experience was "all about me" but I never thought it WASN'T about me either.

It's NOT about you.

Not the PP but you must be joking. So the woman giving birth has no importance whatsoever? No one is saying that the baby is not important but are you saying the mother is NOT important? That's just crazy talk. The lives, health and well-being of mother and baby are both equally important.

People who talk in bumper-sticker-ese aren't really into complexity of thought.

I'm the poster who said I never thought the experience wasn't about me, and I don't understand what you mean.

It WAS about me. My body, my hard work - literally my blood, sweat and tears. It wasn't only about me, but to discount the mother from the experience is ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Just out of curiosity what drugs did they give that caused your baby to stop breathing?

I will mention that while I am 100% on board with informed consent, I do not think that the memory of laboring mothers is 100% accurate about what has gone on in their care, and whether risks were explained.

For example, I was saying to my husband shortly after the birth that before I got my epidural, I had no recollection of anyone discussing risks, etc. with me. My husband was there and said that in fact a brief but detailed discussion had gone on and that they asked specifically for my additional consent after that discussion. I 100% didn't recall this happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just found out about Karen and am so sad.
Karen ... this beautiful option.

I find it troubling how the human mind can justify the exceptional risks of homebirth and use whatever reasoning seems comfortable despite the gap of logic.

I think there are logic gaps in both the homebirth camp and the hospital birth camp in terms of justifying risks. As we all know, risks are inevitable. It's all about where women feel most comfortable giving birth. If someone feels most comfortable at home, they will justify all that the risks that go along with that as being OK. If someone feels most comfortable in a hospital, justifications are made for the risks encountered there as well. I think people should stop being so judgmental of those who have a different comfort zone than themselves. Have your baby where you feel comfortable, secure and safe having your baby and stop picking apart those who have preferences that are different from yours.

I am the PP above and I take issue with your framing this as a "preference" issue. The same reason that I gasp and shake my head at homebirth, especially with an unlicensed provider who practices alone and illegally, is a similar reason why I gasp and shake my head when I see a toddler standing in the back of a vehicle (without a seatbelt or child safety seat) in a car on the highway or why I sneer when I see a parent or grandparent holding a child with one arm while driving a riding lawn mower. These are tragedies waiting to happen that are PREVENTABLE. I am jaded and biased and cynical because I've seen firsthand the pure tragedies that end up in the ER or in the witness room at the police department. The reckless disregard for some dependent's safety and well-being should not be considered a "preference" of someone else. Humans are supposed to exercise judgment and caution. That is why we've made it this far. That is why we created bicycle helmets, seatbelts, smoke detectors, and OBs.

I think it is a slippery slope to impose your concept of risk on everyone. Should people not be allowed to live in Japan because it's an earthquake zone and there's a risk death from living there? Should skydiving be illegal? No. But you can decide weather or not you want raise your family in Japan or skydive. Furthermore, OBs are not the only guardians of safety for birth. I do not equate a home birth with an experienced midwife (who had an assistant - she does not work alone) with standing in a moving vehicle. But obviously your "firsthand" experience causes you to have a different viewpoint. You are right that humans are to exercise judgment and caution but we all have a different viewpoints on what that means and where the safest place is to give birth is debatable (but obviously is not debatable to you).

[Anonymous]

You know what? The birth is about ME. If *I* was to die in birth my husband would be much more upset than if a baby he did not even know yet died, so there's that. Also, last time I checked, women had sovereignty over their own bodies, and this is an important right. What happened here was a tragic accident. I, and nobody else here, know enough details to be judge, jury and/or Monday morning midwives/OBs, so it's all just so much chattering.

I had a homebirth with a CNM at age 35 (not 43, not breech and not with a CPM). I had an uneventful pregnancy, I am an extremely healthy and fit woman. It's perfectly safe and normal to give birth at home without the pointless interventions often pushed in a hospital setting. I am not a hippie, I wasn't sexually abused...yada yada yada. Alot of the ultra pro medicalization folks on this thread sound really ugly and stupid.

I bet most you are pro-choice when it comes to abortion, so you know what? Keep out of my birth choices, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just found out about Karen and am so sad.
Karen delivered my son a year ago and I was in labor for 72 hard hours. I delivered a very healthy 8 lber. I had had my daughter in a hospital years prior and from the drugs they gave me, she had momentarily stopped breathing post-birth twice. Also, the nurse kept pushing for an epidural. Her words exactly, "Why don't you get an epidural. Everyone gets an epidural." I was in labor for 12hours at the hospital. Also,the doctor was strongly suggesting Pitocin because I wouldn't dilate and I agreed to him rupturing my membrane. Both pregnancies normal, outcomes different. Along with other hospital-related factors, I opted for the home-birth this time and would do it again in a heart beat. To me a home-birth is more controlled, less intrusive and there is LESS opportunity for infection.

For one thing, your partner HAS to be more involved, in the prep, birth and post-birth activities. In my case he was involved in ALL 72hors of labor and you would have thought he pushed the baby out.

Re: broken arm birth story. Waiting a few days is nothing. When my daughter was 5 she broke her arm somehow playing on a moon-bounce. Noticed her guarding her arm and went to the ER 2 days later and they didn't think it was broken until the XRay came back. The problem came when trying to find a doctor who wanted to set her arm. No regular Ortho wanted to touch it because of liability issues if it came out wrong. Our only other option was to wait several weeks (I lie to you not) for an appt at Hopkins! Finally we found an Ortho who was willing to look at the XRays and if it wasn't too severe (it wasn't) a break would set it.

Anyway, would use Karen again and would encourage other woman to consider this beautiful option.

It's always an interesting psychological observation. Many in the pro-homebirth camp express a history of disturbing or traumatic birth experiences in a hospital. Many cite drugs and interventions that were used without approval or explanation by pushy doctors who were motivated by money or time constraints or a tee time. The poster above says that the doctors gave her drugs and because of those drugs the baby twice stopped breathing. However when a baby stops breathing in a homebirth, the midwife or the parents will be quick to say that medical science could not prove the precise reason for the breathing trouble. It's interesting that when something goes wrong at a home birth, such as a dead baby, baby stops breathing, preventable brain damage ruins a child's future, etc., according to the mother or father it is not the midwife's actions that caused this. Instead, it is the sad fact that bad things can happen to good people, things just go wrong, no one to blame here/move on, bad things happen in hospitals too, etc. I find it troubling how the human mind can justify the exceptional risks of homebirth and use whatever reasoning seems comfortable despite the gap of logic.

n
I know why this is - because in general, a homebirth midwife works with the patient to set realistic expectations for the birth, especially the pain and hard work involved in achieving natural childbirth. Most OBs do not either a) have time or b) have interest in discussing this. Most patients do not get consented for an epidural until they are in severe pain and in active labor. Talk about a poor time to discuss the risks and benefits of a procedure. Another issue is that many patients do not take childbirth education classes, which makes their expectations for birth unrealistic. I wonder how many first time moms who were unsatisfied with thier birth experiences took CBE classes and were truly informed/engaged in the birth process? That's why you'll see a second time mom choosing a birth center or homebirth scenario for subsequent births. Perhaps because she has become more engaged and involved in the childbirth process?

[Anonymous]

It isn't about you, any more than a million of the things you do while raising a child are about you. This generations peculiar notions about childrearing will be the end of this country yet.

When you decide to bring another being into this wirld you give up self interest or at least you should.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand this "screw the mother" attitude. Even in child rearing, you have to make space for your own health and sanity. You as a mother always matter to some extent.

[Anonymous]

I don't see a "screw the mother" attitude. I think what people are saying is that your child's health and safety should obviously trump the mother's desire to have a home birth/avoid a c-section. In many cases, both can be accomodated, but not all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand this "screw the mother" attitude. Even in child rearing, you have to make space for your own health and sanity. You as a mother always matter to some extent.

Agreed. I think the "not about you" response to everything is really women-hostile. It promotes a standard of selflessness and abnegation that is of course impossible to meet, so any mother (and this is a rule applied to mothers and very rarely fathers) is necessarily failing. And it dismisses the very idea that mothers are permitted to have any independent goals, needs, desires separate and apart from their goals for their child--and thus denies the legitimacy of the independent goals, needs, and desires of most adult women, since most women become mothers at some point. My child is incredibly important to me, but she is not the only person who lives in my household, and all of us count as human beings. It is sad to have to say these things, but apparently it is necessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't see a "screw the mother" attitude. I think what people are saying is that your child's health and safety should obviously trump the mother's desire to have a home birth/avoid a c-section. In many cases, both can be accomodated, but not all.

I don't know where you are getting this from the "It's NOT about you." comment. To me, this is a pretty clear message that the mother's needs don't matter. Believe me, no one who chooses a homebirth does it because she wants a beautiful experience and doesn't care if the baby lives or dies. She does it because she thinks it's what's best for her AND the baby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't see a "screw the mother" attitude. I think what people are saying is that your child's health and safety should obviously trump the mother's desire to have a home birth/avoid a c-section. In many cases, both can be accomodated, but not all.

Um, where do you think these "desires" come from? These are not trivial decisions, it's absurd to suggest mothers that choose home-birth and/or that advocate strongly for themselves in order to avoid unnecessary c-sections are being frivolous. I'm not considering home-birth because I think I can trust my OBs, but I sure as hell am educating myself about the risks of c-section (which are different for every individual), and am going to have to decide for MYSELF what trade-off's I'm comfortable making. We've already decided that if it's a me or the baby situation, we're saving me. This is different for everyone and women need to be free to draw the line where it makes sense for them...it's their health!

I had an appointment with my OB yesterday (who I freaking love) who actually brought this whole thing up with me to see if I'd heard about it. You know what she said? She wondered what the medical profession was doing so wrong that mother's like the one in this case are driven to making decisions that might not make obvious sense. I thought that was pretty awesome of her to think about, and you should think about it too. She then went on to encourage me to talk to her about my birth plan in advance so that we could talk about risks and benefits and make sure it's in my chart. Do you know how rare that is?? The moms you're talking about want to make good decisions for their families, everyone should be focusing on how we can make that happen, not on putting people down for the decisions they're making without adequate support from their caregivers.

[Anonymous]

absurd to suggest mothers that choose home-birth and/or that advocate strongly for themselves in order to avoid unnecessary c-sections are being frivolous

Calm down. Nobody said anyone was being frivilous. I gave bith in a birthing center, but I am young and healthy and had an uncomplicated pregnancy.
There are many different types of women out there, and not everyone's reasons for making the decision to give birth outside of a hospital are the same. Out of seven moms in my bradely class, when asked to discuss why we chose a natural birth, only three of us said it was for the health of our child and ourselves. The other four mentioned reasons such as "self empowerment" or "proving I can do it." Those are valid reasons, but if it has to comes down to a choice due to complicating factors in the pregnancy, they are not more important than avoiding unnecessary risks to your baby.

[Anonymous]

absurd to suggest mothers that choose home-birth and/or that advocate strongly for themselves in order to avoid unnecessary c-sections are being frivolous

Calm down. Nobody said anyone was being frivilous. I gave birth in a birthing center, but I am young and healthy and had an uncomplicated pregnancy.
There are many different types of women out there, and not everyone's reasons for making the decision to give birth outside of a hospital are the same. Out of seven moms in my bradely class, when asked to discuss why we chose a natural birth, only three of us said it was for the health of our child and ourselves. The other four mentioned reasons such as "self empowerment" or "proving I can do it." Those are valid reasons, but if it has to comes down to a choice due to complicating factors in the pregnancy, they are not more important than avoiding unnecessary risks to your baby.