Lost, considering returning to Catholicism despite disagreeing with so much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church supports procreation between two loving individuals within commune with God. Cohabitation before marriage is not allowed. Liberal philosophy can join Henry VIII.

what about the love of a priest for an alter boy, the church seems to have no problem supporting that

No one supports this.

Do you see people sainted for this? Do you see anyone saying that these priests are at the right hand of God in Heaven?

No. No one thinks this is good or is supportive of it continuing.

the reams of investigative journalism and subsequent investigations and discovery from across the globe points to the church hierarchy split between covering up and tacitly endorsing it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

You actually don't understand what you are talking about. But I'm sure you think you do. Most every Catholic I know supports all the things you list. If you can't understand how that is possible, then you don't actually know what you are talking about.

Perhaps but a person’s presence in the pews very much implies they believe the same as the doctrine of their church. Their tithing goes to anti-abortion groups, etc. You are definitely judged by us for the company you keep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

You actually don't understand what you are talking about. But I'm sure you think you do. Most every Catholic I know supports all the things you list. If you can't understand how that is possible, then you don't actually know what you are talking about.

Perhaps but a person’s presence in the pews very much implies they believe the same as the doctrine of their church. Their tithing goes to anti-abortion groups, etc. You are definitely judged by us for the company you keep.

Most of the collection goes to the upkeep of the specific church. When I belonged to a parish with a heavily gay congregation..the collection was in support fo that heavily gay church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The unique example of a “corrupt organization,” yes? No other organization with any issues? No other corruption? No public entities with problems? Nope. Just the Catholics.

I think this is akin to systemic vs. individual racism.

The RCC has a systemic child abuse problem. Not an individual problem, a systemic one. At the highest levels of the Church, there was an organized and systemic effort to cover up abuse, to move abusive priests from parish to parish, and to sideline and discredit child sexual abuse victims. It's baked into the crust.

Yes, other organizations have seen abuse occur but none have gone so far to side with abusers as the RCC.

You haven’t got the slightest idea what you’re talking about. History is replete with examples of organizations, particularly public schools and other public entities with access to children, doing everything they could to keep their abuse problems quiet, and when that failed, hiding behind immunity to avoid making things right. Just recently, a major Protestant denomination (sorry, forget which) got caught red handed in a cover up of precisely the sort you assert was uniquely the province of the Catholic Church. The Church may have had its problems, and those might have been mismanaged (sometimes in relative good faith), but it is undeniable that the Church became and remains a primary target because of size, perceived wealth, archived records, and relative unwillingness to defend. Allegations against the Church also get more attention because of opposition to Church teaching on various issues and a desire to use such (typically unproven and in many cases highly questionable) allegations to undermine the Church’s moral authority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:God gave you free will and free mind for a reason. I have an identical struggle to you and that is what keeps bubbling to my head. I go to church. I pray. I disagree and despise aspects of the church/history. But the the church is for the people not the popes, and I am the people. The fine print of my beliefs are between me and god only.

This makes absolutely no sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The unique example of a “corrupt organization,” yes? No other organization with any issues? No other corruption? No public entities with problems? Nope. Just the Catholics.

I think this is akin to systemic vs. individual racism.

The RCC has a systemic child abuse problem. Not an individual problem, a systemic one. At the highest levels of the Church, there was an organized and systemic effort to cover up abuse, to move abusive priests from parish to parish, and to sideline and discredit child sexual abuse victims. It's baked into the crust.

Yes, other organizations have seen abuse occur but none have gone so far to side with abusers as the RCC.

You haven’t got the slightest idea what you’re talking about. History is replete with examples of organizations, particularly public schools and other public entities with access to children, doing everything they could to keep their abuse problems quiet, and when that failed, hiding behind immunity to avoid making things right. Just recently, a major Protestant denomination (sorry, forget which) got caught red handed in a cover up of precisely the sort you assert was uniquely the province of the Catholic Church. The Church may have had its problems, and those might have been mismanaged (sometimes in relative good faith), but it is undeniable that the Church became and remains a primary target because of size, perceived wealth, archived records, and relative unwillingness to defend. Allegations against the Church also get more attention because of opposition to Church teaching on various issues and a desire to use such (typically unproven and in many cases highly questionable) allegations to undermine the Church’s moral authority.

I used to believe this but now see the “everyone does it” as church propaganda. No one is out to get the church, just to protect innocent children. One reason I left was because too many parishioners took this naive view.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can you attend but not financially support the church?

I can understand wanting the experience of mass, but I could never give money to an organization that actively works to take away my rights as a woman and a lesbian.

I’m a Catholic woman, and I have this same thought sometimes. But really, most of the money either stays within the parish or goes out to help people with their rent and utilities and such.
Also, I pay my taxes, and that’s a corrupt organization if I ever saw one.
And I voluntarily put money into index funds and buy other stock from companies that aren’t exactly exempt from corruption.
I don’t know.

Taxes are not a choice.

You choose to support an organization that spends millions on a lobby to deny sex abuse victims rights, they spend millions to deny LGBT people rights.

You can convince yourself that “your support doesn’t really help the lobby” but you are wrong.

Just admit you are too selfish to care about other people and move on.

https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/roman-catholic-church-pours-2-million-into-discrimination-against-lgbt-amer

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/2345778001

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/catholic-church-scandal-spent-10-million-lobbyists-fight-extension-statutes-of-limitations-child-sex-abuse-vicims/

I will tell you what. If you pull all of your money out of any company on the stock exchange that lobbies for causes you don’t believe in (including index funds), and you start posting on the money forum encouraging others to do the same, then I will stop giving money to my church and school and donate only to specific charities.

I don’t support or invest in corrupt companies.

But go ahead just go around thinking everybody is corrupt so you must support corrupt organizations. Wash your hands Judas.

Good for you I’m guessing that you are either lying, or you don’t actually have any money. Either way, I’m highly anticipating your posts on the money forum encouraging people to completely refigure their retirement accounts and 529’s and your suggestions on where they should put their money instead.

It not that I think everyone is corrupt. It’s just that it seems that everyone can come up with a good reason not to volunteer or give to charity, but suggest they don’t do put their time or money into something that benefits them, and all of a sudden, there are a million reasons that it’s okay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Perhaps the OP has other beliefs the correspond with the church.
The core social values in Catholicism are:

1). Respect for life and dignity of all people.
2) Call to participate in family and community
3). Fundamental rights to life and human decency coupled with responsibility to provide those things to others.
4). Preferential treatment for the poor and vulnerable
5) Dignity and rights of workers
6). Care of the planet.
7). The promotion of justice and peace.

1) Then why do they lobby congress to make lenient laws for sexual abuse
2) Calls to whom? not everybody, they are not inclusive
3) Yet they pay for politicians that create laws against that.
4) Preferential? No, they lobby for low riches for the rich and less resources for the poor and mentally ill.
6) Have you seen the parking lot of a Catholic church?
7) No they lobby for laws that protect pedophiles.

This is such an interesting perspective. I'm sorry that you feel this way about the church or feel that these things are advocated within the Church.

I can tell you that while no one is perfect, if you look through the lives of the saints and other holy people within the Catholic church, the virtues and values that are lauded are those that I listed above.

Saint Teresa of Calcutta
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-teresa-of-calcutta/

Saint Dulce of the Poor
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-maria-rita-lopes-pontes-de-souza-brito/

Venerable Marcello Labor
https://catholicsaints.info/venerable-marcello-labor/

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (the little flower)
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-therese-of-lisieux/


There are many, many more examples.
These are the people that we try to use as examples to lead us in our own lives here on earth. Of course, most of us fall far short.

I don’t feel that way. It’s a fact. You are supporting a corrupt organization if you support the Catholic Church.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you don’t think these are good people worth emulating. If you don’t feel that Dr. Marcello Labor or Mother Teresa have done anything in their lives worth emulating, despite their corruption and sins, then I have to ask what you mean by believing in social justice.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you think these people could only accomplish these tasks as a Catholic. I don’t feel that way. I think they would have done all these things even if they were not part of the Catholic Church. You can emulate Mother Teresa and NOT be Catholic.

Even a cursory glance at a biography of Mother Teresa will confirm that her Catholic faith was at the core of her mission, her personal call and the work she undertook both personally and through the sisters in her religious order. The sisters who carry on the work likewise are motivated in the first instance by their Catholic faith. Mother Teresa was emphatic that her work was neither “social work” nor “social justice,” but rather wholehearted and free service to God in the person of Jesus in the “distressing disguise” of the poorest of the poor.

[Anonymous]

Going to church can be injurious to your health right now.

CHURCH, CONCERTS, CLOSED SPACES ...avoid all three.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

You actually don't understand what you are talking about. But I'm sure you think you do. Most every Catholic I know supports all the things you list. If you can't understand how that is possible, then you don't actually know what you are talking about.

Perhaps but a person’s presence in the pews very much implies they believe the same as the doctrine of their church. Their tithing goes to anti-abortion groups, etc. You are definitely judged by us for the company you keep.

Trust me, I’d way rather be judged by you than by an outraged God acting on the accusations of millions of murdered innocents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The unique example of a “corrupt organization,” yes? No other organization with any issues? No other corruption? No public entities with problems? Nope. Just the Catholics.

I think this is akin to systemic vs. individual racism.

The RCC has a systemic child abuse problem. Not an individual problem, a systemic one. At the highest levels of the Church, there was an organized and systemic effort to cover up abuse, to move abusive priests from parish to parish, and to sideline and discredit child sexual abuse victims. It's baked into the crust.

Yes, other organizations have seen abuse occur but none have gone so far to side with abusers as the RCC.

You haven’t got the slightest idea what you’re talking about. History is replete with examples of organizations, particularly public schools and other public entities with access to children, doing everything they could to keep their abuse problems quiet, and when that failed, hiding behind immunity to avoid making things right. Just recently, a major Protestant denomination (sorry, forget which) got caught red handed in a cover up of precisely the sort you assert was uniquely the province of the Catholic Church. The Church may have had its problems, and those might have been mismanaged (sometimes in relative good faith), but it is undeniable that the Church became and remains a primary target because of size, perceived wealth, archived records, and relative unwillingness to defend. Allegations against the Church also get more attention because of opposition to Church teaching on various issues and a desire to use such (typically unproven and in many cases highly questionable) allegations to undermine the Church’s moral authority.

I used to believe this but now see the “everyone does it” as church propaganda. No one is out to get the church, just to protect innocent children. One reason I left was because too many parishioners took this naive view.

“Everyone does it” is not a defense, but the assertion that the Church is unique in having hosted such offenses is utterly confabulated, and that needs to be acknowledged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church supports procreation between two loving individuals within commune with God. Cohabitation before marriage is not allowed. Liberal philosophy can join Henry VIII.

what about the love of a priest for an alter boy, the church seems to have no problem supporting that

“Alter boy?”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The unique example of a “corrupt organization,” yes? No other organization with any issues? No other corruption? No public entities with problems? Nope. Just the Catholics.

I think this is akin to systemic vs. individual racism.

The RCC has a systemic child abuse problem. Not an individual problem, a systemic one. At the highest levels of the Church, there was an organized and systemic effort to cover up abuse, to move abusive priests from parish to parish, and to sideline and discredit child sexual abuse victims. It's baked into the crust.

Yes, other organizations have seen abuse occur but none have gone so far to side with abusers as the RCC.

You haven’t got the slightest idea what you’re talking about. History is replete with examples of organizations, particularly public schools and other public entities with access to children, doing everything they could to keep their abuse problems quiet, and when that failed, hiding behind immunity to avoid making things right. Just recently, a major Protestant denomination (sorry, forget which) got caught red handed in a cover up of precisely the sort you assert was uniquely the province of the Catholic Church. The Church may have had its problems, and those might have been mismanaged (sometimes in relative good faith), but it is undeniable that the Church became and remains a primary target because of size, perceived wealth, archived records, and relative unwillingness to defend. Allegations against the Church also get more attention because of opposition to Church teaching on various issues and a desire to use such (typically unproven and in many cases highly questionable) allegations to undermine the Church’s moral authority.

Where to start! Do you realize what you are defending?

It’s OK that Catholics abuse children because kids get abused in other places as well.

Mismanaged in relative good faith!!!

And you’ve got the answer. People are picking on the cc because they don’t like it’s teachings (read your last sentence). What kind of person takes moral authority from an organization that hides the fact that it abuses children? Not only hides it but does not remove the offender.

Don’t you sit in church and wonder if that guy up there is a sexual predator? How can you not?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who feel they disagree with Church teachings sometimes do not fully understand those teachings or the basis for them. They may see only the “headlines” but might never have been exposed to the “body” of the story. Catholic teaching is the product of millennia of divine revelation, lived experience and philosophical and theological reflection by some of the greatest minds in human history. It has been and is often mis-taught, misrepresented and distorted, both in the Church and especially in the media.

OP, I would urge you to make your return with an open mind and heart. Make an appointment with the priest and raise your concerns, one at a time. Do the reading the priest suggests. If he can’t help you, ask for a referral to someone more knowledgeable and/or do the research on your own. If you’d like, you could begin with the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a book) and branch out from there. The Catechism is dense but sets forth a great deal of background for the Church teachings, typically with reference to source documents including Scripture.

Above all, pray for light and understanding. Avoid being distracted by things that do not directly concern you in your specific circumstances. It sometimes is interesting and stimulating to discuss and debate “issues,” but the goal of Faith is a living relationship with God in your life, in your circumstances, so that divine love can fill you and flow out of you to others. Faith is far more a matter of the heart than of intellect, but a well trained intellect can help guide the heart.

I wish you the best.

Sounds like you've really twisted yourself up into a pretzel trying to justify your continued involvement in the Catholic Church.

I’m sorry your interior life is so twisted that you cannot see beyond human appetites into the eternal to recognize the Church that, with all its flaws, remains the one founded by God himself.

Um, didn't Roman Emperor Constantine start the Roman Catholic Church? and combine it with some Roman pagan things, like Dec 25th Yule day of baby worship became Christmas, switching day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, and so forth?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

You actually don't understand what you are talking about. But I'm sure you think you do. Most every Catholic I know supports all the things you list. If you can't understand how that is possible, then you don't actually know what you are talking about.

Perhaps but a person’s presence in the pews very much implies they believe the same as the doctrine of their church. Their tithing goes to anti-abortion groups, etc. You are definitely judged by us for the company you keep.

Trust me, I’d way rather be judged by you than by an outraged God acting on the accusations of millions of murdered innocents.

She is not going to judge you on that.