Lost, considering returning to Catholicism despite disagreeing with so much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who feel they disagree with Church teachings sometimes do not fully understand those teachings or the basis for them. They may see only the “headlines” but might never have been exposed to the “body” of the story. Catholic teaching is the product of millennia of divine revelation, lived experience and philosophical and theological reflection by some of the greatest minds in human history. It has been and is often mis-taught, misrepresented and distorted, both in the Church and especially in the media.

OP, I would urge you to make your return with an open mind and heart. Make an appointment with the priest and raise your concerns, one at a time. Do the reading the priest suggests. If he can’t help you, ask for a referral to someone more knowledgeable and/or do the research on your own. If you’d like, you could begin with the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a book) and branch out from there. The Catechism is dense but sets forth a great deal of background for the Church teachings, typically with reference to source documents including Scripture.

Above all, pray for light and understanding. Avoid being distracted by things that do not directly concern you in your specific circumstances. It sometimes is interesting and stimulating to discuss and debate “issues,” but the goal of Faith is a living relationship with God in your life, in your circumstances, so that divine love can fill you and flow out of you to others. Faith is far more a matter of the heart than of intellect, but a well trained intellect can help guide the heart.

I wish you the best.

Sounds like you've really twisted yourself up into a pretzel trying to justify your continued involvement in the Catholic Church.

I’m sorry your interior life is so twisted that you cannot see beyond human appetites into the eternal to recognize the Church that, with all its flaws, remains the one founded by God himself.

Um, didn't Roman Emperor Constantine start the Roman Catholic Church? and combine it with some Roman pagan things, like Dec 25th Yule day of baby worship became Christmas, switching day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, and so forth?

Yes, you're right, but Catholics do not learn that in Catechism, so some Catholics, like pp, think it doesn't count.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can you attend but not financially support the church?

I can understand wanting the experience of mass, but I could never give money to an organization that actively works to take away my rights as a woman and a lesbian.

I’m a Catholic woman, and I have this same thought sometimes. But really, most of the money either stays within the parish or goes out to help people with their rent and utilities and such.
Also, I pay my taxes, and that’s a corrupt organization if I ever saw one.
And I voluntarily put money into index funds and buy other stock from companies that aren’t exactly exempt from corruption.
I don’t know.

Taxes are not a choice.

You choose to support an organization that spends millions on a lobby to deny sex abuse victims rights, they spend millions to deny LGBT people rights.

You can convince yourself that “your support doesn’t really help the lobby” but you are wrong.

Just admit you are too selfish to care about other people and move on.

https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/roman-catholic-church-pours-2-million-into-discrimination-against-lgbt-amer

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/2345778001

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/catholic-church-scandal-spent-10-million-lobbyists-fight-extension-statutes-of-limitations-child-sex-abuse-vicims/

I will tell you what. If you pull all of your money out of any company on the stock exchange that lobbies for causes you don’t believe in (including index funds), and you start posting on the money forum encouraging others to do the same, then I will stop giving money to my church and school and donate only to specific charities.

I don’t support or invest in corrupt companies.

But go ahead just go around thinking everybody is corrupt so you must support corrupt organizations. Wash your hands Judas.

Good for you I’m guessing that you are either lying, or you don’t actually have any money. Either way, I’m highly anticipating your posts on the money forum encouraging people to completely refigure their retirement accounts and 529’s and your suggestions on where they should put their money instead.

It not that I think everyone is corrupt. It’s just that it seems that everyone can come up with a good reason not to volunteer or give to charity, but suggest they don’t do put their time or money into something that benefits them, and all of a sudden, there are a million reasons that it’s okay.

I’m not a financial planner but I do have one, there are ethical mutual funds. I believe we use many for various reasons. I believe TIAA-cREF had a good one, we may have moved our money from their based on current needs.

You are correct most my money goes to helping people not corporations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who feel they disagree with Church teachings sometimes do not fully understand those teachings or the basis for them. They may see only the “headlines” but might never have been exposed to the “body” of the story. Catholic teaching is the product of millennia of divine revelation, lived experience and philosophical and theological reflection by some of the greatest minds in human history. It has been and is often mis-taught, misrepresented and distorted, both in the Church and especially in the media.

OP, I would urge you to make your return with an open mind and heart. Make an appointment with the priest and raise your concerns, one at a time. Do the reading the priest suggests. If he can’t help you, ask for a referral to someone more knowledgeable and/or do the research on your own. If you’d like, you could begin with the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a book) and branch out from there. The Catechism is dense but sets forth a great deal of background for the Church teachings, typically with reference to source documents including Scripture.

Above all, pray for light and understanding. Avoid being distracted by things that do not directly concern you in your specific circumstances. It sometimes is interesting and stimulating to discuss and debate “issues,” but the goal of Faith is a living relationship with God in your life, in your circumstances, so that divine love can fill you and flow out of you to others. Faith is far more a matter of the heart than of intellect, but a well trained intellect can help guide the heart.

I wish you the best.

Sounds like you've really twisted yourself up into a pretzel trying to justify your continued involvement in the Catholic Church.

I’m sorry your interior life is so twisted that you cannot see beyond human appetites into the eternal to recognize the Church that, with all its flaws, remains the one founded by God himself.

Um, didn't Roman Emperor Constantine start the Roman Catholic Church? and combine it with some Roman pagan things, like Dec 25th Yule day of baby worship became Christmas, switching day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, and so forth?

No. Jesus started the Catholic Church and made Saint Peter the first Pope. Christianity was brought out of Palestine and into Rome and other places by Saint Peter and Saint Paul (born Saul). Early Christians were persecuted and forced into hiding. By the time Constantine became emperor, there were many Christians, including much of the Roman army, and it was probably as much a shrewd political move on his part as much as it was Divine revelation.

However, as much as you might want to talk about the Church leaders and what was set on which day, what is most interesting here are the people who were willing to have faith and endure persecution and even torture and death. Constantine likely really only made Christianity the official religion of Rome because so many people were following it already. The Catholic Church is, and has always been, formed by the masses of people who believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Perhaps the OP has other beliefs the correspond with the church.
The core social values in Catholicism are:

1). Respect for life and dignity of all people.
2) Call to participate in family and community
3). Fundamental rights to life and human decency coupled with responsibility to provide those things to others.
4). Preferential treatment for the poor and vulnerable
5) Dignity and rights of workers
6). Care of the planet.
7). The promotion of justice and peace.

1) Then why do they lobby congress to make lenient laws for sexual abuse
2) Calls to whom? not everybody, they are not inclusive
3) Yet they pay for politicians that create laws against that.
4) Preferential? No, they lobby for low riches for the rich and less resources for the poor and mentally ill.
6) Have you seen the parking lot of a Catholic church?
7) No they lobby for laws that protect pedophiles.

This is such an interesting perspective. I'm sorry that you feel this way about the church or feel that these things are advocated within the Church.

I can tell you that while no one is perfect, if you look through the lives of the saints and other holy people within the Catholic church, the virtues and values that are lauded are those that I listed above.

Saint Teresa of Calcutta
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-teresa-of-calcutta/

Saint Dulce of the Poor
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-maria-rita-lopes-pontes-de-souza-brito/

Venerable Marcello Labor
https://catholicsaints.info/venerable-marcello-labor/

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (the little flower)
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-therese-of-lisieux/


There are many, many more examples.
These are the people that we try to use as examples to lead us in our own lives here on earth. Of course, most of us fall far short.

I don’t feel that way. It’s a fact. You are supporting a corrupt organization if you support the Catholic Church.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you don’t think these are good people worth emulating. If you don’t feel that Dr. Marcello Labor or Mother Teresa have done anything in their lives worth emulating, despite their corruption and sins, then I have to ask what you mean by believing in social justice.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you think these people could only accomplish these tasks as a Catholic. I don’t feel that way. I think they would have done all these things even if they were not part of the Catholic Church. You can emulate Mother Teresa and NOT be Catholic.

I didn’t say that. How could anyone know that?

What I said is this: These people aren’t just people who happen to be Catholic. These are people who have virtues and values that are lauded by the church. This IS how Catholics believe you should try to live your life.
I believe that you replied that it was a fact that the above people were corrupt (and certainly they were), and that you felt that made their virtues worthless.

I am not saying that you cannot emulate Mother Teresa and NOT be Catholic. I am saying that the Church DOES value social justice highly and teach it to children and parishioners through the biographies of people like Mother Teresa.

There seems to be this perception that the Church values hate, and that is simply not true. The Church values love, compassion, and caring for the poor. You can see this in who they choose to set as examples for what it is to be a valuable person and live a good life.

[Anonymous]

OP if you’re still listening, I was in your position. The more liberal branch of Lutheranism (ELCA) worked for me. It felt like church (a lot of the same liturgy as Catholic) without the pedophilia, sexism, and social conservatism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who feel they disagree with Church teachings sometimes do not fully understand those teachings or the basis for them. They may see only the “headlines” but might never have been exposed to the “body” of the story. Catholic teaching is the product of millennia of divine revelation, lived experience and philosophical and theological reflection by some of the greatest minds in human history. It has been and is often mis-taught, misrepresented and distorted, both in the Church and especially in the media.

OP, I would urge you to make your return with an open mind and heart. Make an appointment with the priest and raise your concerns, one at a time. Do the reading the priest suggests. If he can’t help you, ask for a referral to someone more knowledgeable and/or do the research on your own. If you’d like, you could begin with the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a book) and branch out from there. The Catechism is dense but sets forth a great deal of background for the Church teachings, typically with reference to source documents including Scripture.

Above all, pray for light and understanding. Avoid being distracted by things that do not directly concern you in your specific circumstances. It sometimes is interesting and stimulating to discuss and debate “issues,” but the goal of Faith is a living relationship with God in your life, in your circumstances, so that divine love can fill you and flow out of you to others. Faith is far more a matter of the heart than of intellect, but a well trained intellect can help guide the heart.

I wish you the best.

Sounds like you've really twisted yourself up into a pretzel trying to justify your continued involvement in the Catholic Church.

I’m sorry your interior life is so twisted that you cannot see beyond human appetites into the eternal to recognize the Church that, with all its flaws, remains the one founded by God himself.

Um, didn't Roman Emperor Constantine start the Roman Catholic Church? and combine it with some Roman pagan things, like Dec 25th Yule day of baby worship became Christmas, switching day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, and so forth?

No. Jesus started the Catholic Church and made Saint Peter the first Pope. Christianity was brought out of Palestine and into Rome and other places by Saint Peter and Saint Paul (born Saul). Early Christians were persecuted and forced into hiding. By the time Constantine became emperor, there were many Christians, including much of the Roman army, and it was probably as much a shrewd political move on his part as much as it was Divine revelation.

However, as much as you might want to talk about the Church leaders and what was set on which day, what is most interesting here are the people who were willing to have faith and endure persecution and even torture and death. Constantine likely really only made Christianity the official religion of Rome because so many people were following it already. The Catholic Church is, and has always been, formed by the masses of people who believe.

Yes, indeed -- the Catechism version!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP if you’re still listening, I was in your position. The more liberal branch of Lutheranism (ELCA) worked for me. It felt like church (a lot of the same liturgy as Catholic) without the pedophilia, sexism, and social conservatism.

Nope, no sex abuse in the Lutherans.

“ Thore was pastor of St. Nicodemus for about 20 years in 2004, when he admitted to church officials that he had had inappropriate sexual contact with two boys in his congregation years earlier.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/lutheran-pastor-accused-of-abuse-says-he-lived-in-torment-over-any-wrong-he-committed/article_322b5b4a-3aad-5b37-be6b-e5f45937550f.amp.html

“Victims of a former Lutheran minister who sexually molested boys won a jury award of nearly $37 million Thursday, bringing the total payout in the case to about $69 million.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna4808590

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Perhaps the OP has other beliefs the correspond with the church.
The core social values in Catholicism are:

1). Respect for life and dignity of all people.
2) Call to participate in family and community
3). Fundamental rights to life and human decency coupled with responsibility to provide those things to others.
4). Preferential treatment for the poor and vulnerable
5) Dignity and rights of workers
6). Care of the planet.
7). The promotion of justice and peace.

1) Then why do they lobby congress to make lenient laws for sexual abuse
2) Calls to whom? not everybody, they are not inclusive
3) Yet they pay for politicians that create laws against that.
4) Preferential? No, they lobby for low riches for the rich and less resources for the poor and mentally ill.
6) Have you seen the parking lot of a Catholic church?
7) No they lobby for laws that protect pedophiles.

This is such an interesting perspective. I'm sorry that you feel this way about the church or feel that these things are advocated within the Church.

I can tell you that while no one is perfect, if you look through the lives of the saints and other holy people within the Catholic church, the virtues and values that are lauded are those that I listed above.

Saint Teresa of Calcutta
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-teresa-of-calcutta/

Saint Dulce of the Poor
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-maria-rita-lopes-pontes-de-souza-brito/

Venerable Marcello Labor
https://catholicsaints.info/venerable-marcello-labor/

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (the little flower)
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-therese-of-lisieux/


There are many, many more examples.
These are the people that we try to use as examples to lead us in our own lives here on earth. Of course, most of us fall far short.

I don’t feel that way. It’s a fact. You are supporting a corrupt organization if you support the Catholic Church.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you don’t think these are good people worth emulating. If you don’t feel that Dr. Marcello Labor or Mother Teresa have done anything in their lives worth emulating, despite their corruption and sins, then I have to ask what you mean by believing in social justice.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you think these people could only accomplish these tasks as a Catholic. I don’t feel that way. I think they would have done all these things even if they were not part of the Catholic Church. You can emulate Mother Teresa and NOT be Catholic.

I didn’t say that. How could anyone know that?

What I said is this: These people aren’t just people who happen to be Catholic. These are people who have virtues and values that are lauded by the church. This IS how Catholics believe you should try to live your life.
I believe that you replied that it was a fact that the above people were corrupt (and certainly they were), and that you felt that made their virtues worthless.

I am not saying that you cannot emulate Mother Teresa and NOT be Catholic. I am saying that the Church DOES value social justice highly and teach it to children and parishioners through the biographies of people like Mother Teresa.

There seems to be this perception that the Church values hate, and that is simply not true. The Church values love, compassion, and caring for the poor. You can see this in who they choose to set as examples for what it is to be a valuable person and live a good life.

You can also see what the Church values by what it covers up and denies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP if you’re still listening, I was in your position. The more liberal branch of Lutheranism (ELCA) worked for me. It felt like church (a lot of the same liturgy as Catholic) without the pedophilia, sexism, and social conservatism.

Nope, no sex abuse in the Lutherans.

“ Thore was pastor of St. Nicodemus for about 20 years in 2004, when he admitted to church officials that he had had inappropriate sexual contact with two boys in his congregation years earlier.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/lutheran-pastor-accused-of-abuse-says-he-lived-in-torment-over-any-wrong-he-committed/article_322b5b4a-3aad-5b37-be6b-e5f45937550f.amp.html

“Victims of a former Lutheran minister who sexually molested boys won a jury award of nearly $37 million Thursday, bringing the total payout in the case to about $69 million.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna4808590

Nice try, but the difference is that the ELCA doesn't have an organized hierarchy that used its power to cover up the crimes for decades.

I'm sorry that's hard for you to face.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP if you’re still listening, I was in your position. The more liberal branch of Lutheranism (ELCA) worked for me. It felt like church (a lot of the same liturgy as Catholic) without the pedophilia, sexism, and social conservatism.

Nope, no sex abuse in the Lutherans.

“ Thore was pastor of St. Nicodemus for about 20 years in 2004, when he admitted to church officials that he had had inappropriate sexual contact with two boys in his congregation years earlier.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/lutheran-pastor-accused-of-abuse-says-he-lived-in-torment-over-any-wrong-he-committed/article_322b5b4a-3aad-5b37-be6b-e5f45937550f.amp.html

“Victims of a former Lutheran minister who sexually molested boys won a jury award of nearly $37 million Thursday, bringing the total payout in the case to about $69 million.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna4808590

Nice try, but the difference is that the ELCA doesn't have an organized hierarchy that used its power to cover up the crimes for decades.

I'm sorry that's hard for you to face.

Wow. And with a history going all the way back to 1987!

And if you really believe the ELCA has never tried to bury an abuse case I’m the one sorry for you.

And I’ll just leave this here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/us/abuse-by-clergy-is-not-just-a-catholic-problem.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Perhaps the OP has other beliefs the correspond with the church.
The core social values in Catholicism are:

1). Respect for life and dignity of all people.
2) Call to participate in family and community
3). Fundamental rights to life and human decency coupled with responsibility to provide those things to others.
4). Preferential treatment for the poor and vulnerable
5) Dignity and rights of workers
6). Care of the planet.
7). The promotion of justice and peace.

1) Then why do they lobby congress to make lenient laws for sexual abuse
2) Calls to whom? not everybody, they are not inclusive
3) Yet they pay for politicians that create laws against that.
4) Preferential? No, they lobby for low riches for the rich and less resources for the poor and mentally ill.
6) Have you seen the parking lot of a Catholic church?
7) No they lobby for laws that protect pedophiles.

This is such an interesting perspective. I'm sorry that you feel this way about the church or feel that these things are advocated within the Church.

I can tell you that while no one is perfect, if you look through the lives of the saints and other holy people within the Catholic church, the virtues and values that are lauded are those that I listed above.

Saint Teresa of Calcutta
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-teresa-of-calcutta/

Saint Dulce of the Poor
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-maria-rita-lopes-pontes-de-souza-brito/

Venerable Marcello Labor
https://catholicsaints.info/venerable-marcello-labor/

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (the little flower)
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-therese-of-lisieux/


There are many, many more examples.
These are the people that we try to use as examples to lead us in our own lives here on earth. Of course, most of us fall far short.

I don’t feel that way. It’s a fact. You are supporting a corrupt organization if you support the Catholic Church.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you don’t think these are good people worth emulating. If you don’t feel that Dr. Marcello Labor or Mother Teresa have done anything in their lives worth emulating, despite their corruption and sins, then I have to ask what you mean by believing in social justice.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you think these people could only accomplish these tasks as a Catholic. I don’t feel that way. I think they would have done all these things even if they were not part of the Catholic Church. You can emulate Mother Teresa and NOT be Catholic.

I didn’t say that. How could anyone know that?

What I said is this: These people aren’t just people who happen to be Catholic. These are people who have virtues and values that are lauded by the church. This IS how Catholics believe you should try to live your life.
I believe that you replied that it was a fact that the above people were corrupt (and certainly they were), and that you felt that made their virtues worthless.

I am not saying that you cannot emulate Mother Teresa and NOT be Catholic. I am saying that the Church DOES value social justice highly and teach it to children and parishioners through the biographies of people like Mother Teresa.

There seems to be this perception that the Church values hate, and that is simply not true. The Church values love, compassion, and caring for the poor. You can see this in who they choose to set as examples for what it is to be a valuable person and live a good life.

Whew that was a long round about way for us to agree that Op absolutely can accomplish all the spirituality and good deeds on earth she wants without being a catholic!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP if you’re still listening, I was in your position. The more liberal branch of Lutheranism (ELCA) worked for me. It felt like church (a lot of the same liturgy as Catholic) without the pedophilia, sexism, and social conservatism.

Nope, no sex abuse in the Lutherans.

“ Thore was pastor of St. Nicodemus for about 20 years in 2004, when he admitted to church officials that he had had inappropriate sexual contact with two boys in his congregation years earlier.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/lutheran-pastor-accused-of-abuse-says-he-lived-in-torment-over-any-wrong-he-committed/article_322b5b4a-3aad-5b37-be6b-e5f45937550f.amp.html

“Victims of a former Lutheran minister who sexually molested boys won a jury award of nearly $37 million Thursday, bringing the total payout in the case to about $69 million.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna4808590

Nice try, but the difference is that the ELCA doesn't have an organized hierarchy that used its power to cover up the crimes for decades.

I'm sorry that's hard for you to face.

Wow. And with a history going all the way back to 1987!

And if you really believe the ELCA has never tried to bury an abuse case I’m the one sorry for you.

And I’ll just leave this here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/us/abuse-by-clergy-is-not-just-a-catholic-problem.html

Not a single person has indicated that child sexual abuse exists only in the Catholic church. But by design, most Protestant denominations (including the ELCA) are not hierarchical. They're independent congregations. So, you're still wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who feel they disagree with Church teachings sometimes do not fully understand those teachings or the basis for them. They may see only the “headlines” but might never have been exposed to the “body” of the story. Catholic teaching is the product of millennia of divine revelation, lived experience and philosophical and theological reflection by some of the greatest minds in human history. It has been and is often mis-taught, misrepresented and distorted, both in the Church and especially in the media.

OP, I would urge you to make your return with an open mind and heart. Make an appointment with the priest and raise your concerns, one at a time. Do the reading the priest suggests. If he can’t help you, ask for a referral to someone more knowledgeable and/or do the research on your own. If you’d like, you could begin with the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a book) and branch out from there. The Catechism is dense but sets forth a great deal of background for the Church teachings, typically with reference to source documents including Scripture.

Above all, pray for light and understanding. Avoid being distracted by things that do not directly concern you in your specific circumstances. It sometimes is interesting and stimulating to discuss and debate “issues,” but the goal of Faith is a living relationship with God in your life, in your circumstances, so that divine love can fill you and flow out of you to others. Faith is far more a matter of the heart than of intellect, but a well trained intellect can help guide the heart.

I wish you the best.

Sounds like you've really twisted yourself up into a pretzel trying to justify your continued involvement in the Catholic Church.

I’m sorry your interior life is so twisted that you cannot see beyond human appetites into the eternal to recognize the Church that, with all its flaws, remains the one founded by God himself.

Um, didn't Roman Emperor Constantine start the Roman Catholic Church? and combine it with some Roman pagan things, like Dec 25th Yule day of baby worship became Christmas, switching day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, and so forth?

No. Jesus started the Catholic Church and made Saint Peter the first Pope. Christianity was brought out of Palestine and into Rome and other places by Saint Peter and Saint Paul (born Saul). Early Christians were persecuted and forced into hiding. By the time Constantine became emperor, there were many Christians, including much of the Roman army, and it was probably as much a shrewd political move on his part as much as it was Divine revelation.

However, as much as you might want to talk about the Church leaders and what was set on which day, what is most interesting here are the people who were willing to have faith and endure persecution and even torture and death. Constantine likely really only made Christianity the official religion of Rome because so many people were following it already. The Catholic Church is, and has always been, formed by the masses of people who believe.

Yes, indeed -- the Catechism version!

I guess. This is the National Geographic, the DK science, the History Channel, and the existing primary source version as well.

I am not sure where the "Constantine made up Christianity to fit with pagan beliefs" version comes from.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP seriously you believe in everything Catholics do not.

Pro Choice
Gay marriage
Divorce

Why would you want to be part of something that condones chiid abusers and is against the things you believe in?

How about Unitarian? Or Episcopalian?.

Perhaps the OP has other beliefs the correspond with the church.
The core social values in Catholicism are:

1). Respect for life and dignity of all people.
2) Call to participate in family and community
3). Fundamental rights to life and human decency coupled with responsibility to provide those things to others.
4). Preferential treatment for the poor and vulnerable
5) Dignity and rights of workers
6). Care of the planet.
7). The promotion of justice and peace.

1) Then why do they lobby congress to make lenient laws for sexual abuse
2) Calls to whom? not everybody, they are not inclusive
3) Yet they pay for politicians that create laws against that.
4) Preferential? No, they lobby for low riches for the rich and less resources for the poor and mentally ill.
6) Have you seen the parking lot of a Catholic church?
7) No they lobby for laws that protect pedophiles.

This is such an interesting perspective. I'm sorry that you feel this way about the church or feel that these things are advocated within the Church.

I can tell you that while no one is perfect, if you look through the lives of the saints and other holy people within the Catholic church, the virtues and values that are lauded are those that I listed above.

Saint Teresa of Calcutta
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-teresa-of-calcutta/

Saint Dulce of the Poor
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-maria-rita-lopes-pontes-de-souza-brito/

Venerable Marcello Labor
https://catholicsaints.info/venerable-marcello-labor/

Saint Thérèse of Lisieux (the little flower)
https://catholicsaints.info/saint-therese-of-lisieux/


There are many, many more examples.
These are the people that we try to use as examples to lead us in our own lives here on earth. Of course, most of us fall far short.

I don’t feel that way. It’s a fact. You are supporting a corrupt organization if you support the Catholic Church.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you don’t think these are good people worth emulating. If you don’t feel that Dr. Marcello Labor or Mother Teresa have done anything in their lives worth emulating, despite their corruption and sins, then I have to ask what you mean by believing in social justice.

Wow. Okay. Clearly you think these people could only accomplish these tasks as a Catholic. I don’t feel that way. I think they would have done all these things even if they were not part of the Catholic Church. You can emulate Mother Teresa and NOT be Catholic.

I didn’t say that. How could anyone know that?

What I said is this: These people aren’t just people who happen to be Catholic. These are people who have virtues and values that are lauded by the church. This IS how Catholics believe you should try to live your life.
I believe that you replied that it was a fact that the above people were corrupt (and certainly they were), and that you felt that made their virtues worthless.

I am not saying that you cannot emulate Mother Teresa and NOT be Catholic. I am saying that the Church DOES value social justice highly and teach it to children and parishioners through the biographies of people like Mother Teresa.

There seems to be this perception that the Church values hate, and that is simply not true. The Church values love, compassion, and caring for the poor. You can see this in who they choose to set as examples for what it is to be a valuable person and live a good life.

Whew that was a long round about way for us to agree that Op absolutely can accomplish all the spirituality and good deeds on earth she wants without being a catholic!

Well...
You started off telling me that Catholics promote abuse and hate and have no love for the poor. I suppose that it's not a surprise that the whole thing ended up kind of a circuitous way of saying that you have a free will to live your life as you will regardless of your theology.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:People who feel they disagree with Church teachings sometimes do not fully understand those teachings or the basis for them. They may see only the “headlines” but might never have been exposed to the “body” of the story. Catholic teaching is the product of millennia of divine revelation, lived experience and philosophical and theological reflection by some of the greatest minds in human history. It has been and is often mis-taught, misrepresented and distorted, both in the Church and especially in the media.

OP, I would urge you to make your return with an open mind and heart. Make an appointment with the priest and raise your concerns, one at a time. Do the reading the priest suggests. If he can’t help you, ask for a referral to someone more knowledgeable and/or do the research on your own. If you’d like, you could begin with the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a book) and branch out from there. The Catechism is dense but sets forth a great deal of background for the Church teachings, typically with reference to source documents including Scripture.

Above all, pray for light and understanding. Avoid being distracted by things that do not directly concern you in your specific circumstances. It sometimes is interesting and stimulating to discuss and debate “issues,” but the goal of Faith is a living relationship with God in your life, in your circumstances, so that divine love can fill you and flow out of you to others. Faith is far more a matter of the heart than of intellect, but a well trained intellect can help guide the heart.

I wish you the best.

Sounds like you've really twisted yourself up into a pretzel trying to justify your continued involvement in the Catholic Church.

I’m sorry your interior life is so twisted that you cannot see beyond human appetites into the eternal to recognize the Church that, with all its flaws, remains the one founded by God himself.

Um, didn't Roman Emperor Constantine start the Roman Catholic Church? and combine it with some Roman pagan things, like Dec 25th Yule day of baby worship became Christmas, switching day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, and so forth?

No. Jesus started the Catholic Church and made Saint Peter the first Pope. Christianity was brought out of Palestine and into Rome and other places by Saint Peter and Saint Paul (born Saul). Early Christians were persecuted and forced into hiding. By the time Constantine became emperor, there were many Christians, including much of the Roman army, and it was probably as much a shrewd political move on his part as much as it was Divine revelation.

However, as much as you might want to talk about the Church leaders and what was set on which day, what is most interesting here are the people who were willing to have faith and endure persecution and even torture and death. Constantine likely really only made Christianity the official religion of Rome because so many people were following it already. The Catholic Church is, and has always been, formed by the masses of people who believe.

Yes, indeed -- the Catechism version!

I guess. This is the National Geographic, the DK science, the History Channel, and the existing primary source version as well.

I am not sure where the "Constantine made up Christianity to fit with pagan beliefs" version comes from.

I'm a Syrian Christian- we got the 1st church, I believe from St. Paul. We are the first gentle Christians. It was not Catholic, no pope. We eventually merged into Greek orthodox, then later broke away. Roman Catholicism did not begin until Emperor Constantine. And I believe he named himself the 1st pope.