Pope says no to blessing same-sex unions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP, and I haven't read through this thread, but I have to say that I'm happy to hear this. The church should not be bending to the ways of popular culture. It follows God's teachings, which are clear on this issue.

Not returning for a debate on this as I know that 99% of you don't agree with me, which is fine. But there are some of us who are pleased that the Pope did not cave to political pressure.

Where is it clear?

Paul writes about it in Romans. The Old Testament also condemns homosexual practice, and in several places defines marriage as the union between one man and one woman.

Scholars disagree on how to read 1:26. Some say it is a prohibition against sodomy, regardless of genders involved. So, not clear.

A bit of a tangent here, but I’m curious. Is 1:26 the reference some people use to justify homosexual relations between women and not condone it between men? I’ve heard some people go as far as saying that women cannot be homosexual because they cannot sodomize one another. I think other catechetical elements frown upon sexual acts between any two people outside of marriage, so it’s a moot point as far as the church is concerned.

I'm not familiar with that.

But I find it distressing that a church of a billion people stands for discrimination against gays, when they know they have nearly all broken Church law regarding sex and reproduction. Sex is ordained for reproduction, and "each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life." Nearly every Catholic woman of reproductive age reports having used artificial birth control. I'm sure some think this is justified because they were (nearly) sure they were going to get married, or because in their hearts they know God does not want them to have a fifth child. Or IVF? The Church condemns it and yet Catholic moms will talk about their IVF experiences openly at Church functions! Because how could the church "truly" object to bearing children? God couldn't possibly mean for them to be childless.

Technically, there is nothing wrong with being gay and catholic. But there is a call to live chastely and celibate. Which I know, that is seen as discrimination since straight single people CAN get married in the church. You’re right about the sins again sexuality in general. Yes those people choose those things but technically are still now following the church.

As a catholic, I don’t see how this is surprising to anyone and why anyone who isn’t catholic cares. If you’re gay, there are plenty of Christian ministers who will officiate your wedding. Plenty of churches that will see your marriage as valid in addition to it being legal in this country. Why would you want to be married in a church that doesn’t see gay marriage as valid?

It's not surprising. But if you grow up in a Catholic family and you are gay, you care a lot!

If your Catholic family rejects you because your marriage is an offense against God or they think you are going to hell, you care a lot!

If your family has been Catholic for a millennium and you grew up praying the Rosary and you realize your church is doing an injustice to people, you care!

If you believe in transubstantiation, and there is nowhere else to receive the Eucharist as you know it, you are denied something irreplaceable!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Two things. There are already priests in the DMV performing same-sex ceremonies on the down-low. This is not a too well kept secret.
Also, with President Biden being the most visible example of a faithful highly devout Catholic who holds progressive beliefs, I think the Church is changing from the bottom up. The Church’s old male hierarchy has to parrot the catechism, but I think most Catholics simply ignore them at this point.
It’s disappointing though because we saw Pope Francis as an agent of progressive radically needed change in the Church but he’s mostly proved to be as sadly conservative as his predecessors Benedict and John Paul II.

I find this disappointing, too, but the papacy is a political position and Francis seems to have become an astute political operator. He can't change everything at once. He is moving in the right direction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP, and I haven't read through this thread, but I have to say that I'm happy to hear this. The church should not be bending to the ways of popular culture. It follows God's teachings, which are clear on this issue.

Not returning for a debate on this as I know that 99% of you don't agree with me, which is fine. But there are some of us who are pleased that the Pope did not cave to political pressure.

Where is it clear?

Paul writes about it in Romans. The Old Testament also condemns homosexual practice, and in several places defines marriage as the union between one man and one woman.

Scholars disagree on how to read 1:26. Some say it is a prohibition against sodomy, regardless of genders involved. So, not clear.

A bit of a tangent here, but I’m curious. Is 1:26 the reference some people use to justify homosexual relations between women and not condone it between men? I’ve heard some people go as far as saying that women cannot be homosexual because they cannot sodomize one another. I think other catechetical elements frown upon sexual acts between any two people outside of marriage, so it’s a moot point as far as the church is concerned.

I'm not familiar with that.

But I find it distressing that a church of a billion people stands for discrimination against gays, when they know they have nearly all broken Church law regarding sex and reproduction. Sex is ordained for reproduction, and "each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life." Nearly every Catholic woman of reproductive age reports having used artificial birth control. I'm sure some think this is justified because they were (nearly) sure they were going to get married, or because in their hearts they know God does not want them to have a fifth child. Or IVF? The Church condemns it and yet Catholic moms will talk about their IVF experiences openly at Church functions! Because how could the church "truly" object to bearing children? God couldn't possibly mean for them to be childless.

Technically, there is nothing wrong with being gay and catholic. But there is a call to live chastely and celibate. Which I know, that is seen as discrimination since straight single people CAN get married in the church. You’re right about the sins again sexuality in general. Yes those people choose those things but technically are still now following the church.

As a catholic, I don’t see how this is surprising to anyone and why anyone who isn’t catholic cares. If you’re gay, there are plenty of Christian ministers who will officiate your wedding. Plenty of churches that will see your marriage as valid in addition to it being legal in this country. Why would you want to be married in a church that doesn’t see gay marriage as valid?

It's not surprising. But if you grow up in a Catholic family and you are gay, you care a lot!

If your Catholic family rejects you because your marriage is an offense against God or they think you are going to hell, you care a lot!

If your family has been Catholic for a millennium and you grew up praying the Rosary and you realize your church is doing an injustice to people, you care!

If you believe in transubstantiation, and there is nowhere else to receive the Eucharist as you know it, you are denied something irreplaceable!

Yes in those situations, that makes sense. But many people just like to criticize the church for it's beliefs for not other reason to criticize. The mormon church doesn't allow gay marriage and I'm sure strict Muslim and Jewish groups don't either. But, only the catholic church gets criticized for it.

Although rare, I'm sure there are gay Catholics who are choosing to live a celibate life and continue to practice their Catholic faith and fully participate in the church in full communion. They accept they won't get married in the church. If someone truly believes in the One Holy Catholic church and is gay, they are likely accept the teachings and not want to be living in sin. Otherwise, there are other churches where they can live a faith in God and feel accepted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really wonder how people can call themselves Catholic in good conscience.

They compartmentalize. People do it with all kinds of issues, not just religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP, and I haven't read through this thread, but I have to say that I'm happy to hear this. The church should not be bending to the ways of popular culture. It follows God's teachings, which are clear on this issue.

Not returning for a debate on this as I know that 99% of you don't agree with me, which is fine. But there are some of us who are pleased that the Pope did not cave to political pressure.

Where is it clear?

Paul writes about it in Romans. The Old Testament also condemns homosexual practice, and in several places defines marriage as the union between one man and one woman.

Scholars disagree on how to read 1:26. Some say it is a prohibition against sodomy, regardless of genders involved. So, not clear.

A bit of a tangent here, but I’m curious. Is 1:26 the reference some people use to justify homosexual relations between women and not condone it between men? I’ve heard some people go as far as saying that women cannot be homosexual because they cannot sodomize one another. I think other catechetical elements frown upon sexual acts between any two people outside of marriage, so it’s a moot point as far as the church is concerned.

I'm not familiar with that.

But I find it distressing that a church of a billion people stands for discrimination against gays, when they know they have nearly all broken Church law regarding sex and reproduction. Sex is ordained for reproduction, and "each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life." Nearly every Catholic woman of reproductive age reports having used artificial birth control. I'm sure some think this is justified because they were (nearly) sure they were going to get married, or because in their hearts they know God does not want them to have a fifth child. Or IVF? The Church condemns it and yet Catholic moms will talk about their IVF experiences openly at Church functions! Because how could the church "truly" object to bearing children? God couldn't possibly mean for them to be childless.

Technically, there is nothing wrong with being gay and catholic. But there is a call to live chastely and celibate. Which I know, that is seen as discrimination since straight single people CAN get married in the church. You’re right about the sins again sexuality in general. Yes those people choose those things but technically are still now following the church.

As a catholic, I don’t see how this is surprising to anyone and why anyone who isn’t catholic cares. If you’re gay, there are plenty of Christian ministers who will officiate your wedding. Plenty of churches that will see your marriage as valid in addition to it being legal in this country. Why would you want to be married in a church that doesn’t see gay marriage as valid?

It's not surprising. But if you grow up in a Catholic family and you are gay, you care a lot!

If your Catholic family rejects you because your marriage is an offense against God or they think you are going to hell, you care a lot!

If your family has been Catholic for a millennium and you grew up praying the Rosary and you realize your church is doing an injustice to people, you care!

If you believe in transubstantiation, and there is nowhere else to receive the Eucharist as you know it, you are denied something irreplaceable!

Beliefs can be replaced with other beliefs -- it happens all the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP, and I haven't read through this thread, but I have to say that I'm happy to hear this. The church should not be bending to the ways of popular culture. It follows God's teachings, which are clear on this issue.

Not returning for a debate on this as I know that 99% of you don't agree with me, which is fine. But there are some of us who are pleased that the Pope did not cave to political pressure.

Where is it clear?

Paul writes about it in Romans. The Old Testament also condemns homosexual practice, and in several places defines marriage as the union between one man and one woman.

Scholars disagree on how to read 1:26. Some say it is a prohibition against sodomy, regardless of genders involved. So, not clear.

A bit of a tangent here, but I’m curious. Is 1:26 the reference some people use to justify homosexual relations between women and not condone it between men? I’ve heard some people go as far as saying that women cannot be homosexual because they cannot sodomize one another. I think other catechetical elements frown upon sexual acts between any two people outside of marriage, so it’s a moot point as far as the church is concerned.

But what about women who get one of those strap-on penises to sodomize other women?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Two things. There are already priests in the DMV performing same-sex ceremonies on the down-low. This is not a too well kept secret.
Also, with President Biden being the most visible example of a faithful highly devout Catholic who holds progressive beliefs, I think the Church is changing from the bottom up. The Church’s old male hierarchy has to parrot the catechism, but I think most Catholics simply ignore them at this point.
It’s disappointing though because we saw Pope Francis as an agent of progressive radically needed change in the Church but he’s mostly proved to be as sadly conservative as his predecessors Benedict and John Paul II.

I find this disappointing, too, but the papacy is a political position and Francis seems to have become an astute political operator. He can't change everything at once. He is moving in the right direction.

He hasn’t changed anything. He’s good at marketing himself but absolutely nothing has changed. He’s tricked us all. The one good thing that will come of all this is that the German Church will hopefully officially break with the Vatican this year, which will open the door to more Churches leaving. It’d be nice to see the pope confined to his little fiefdom in Rome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP, and I haven't read through this thread, but I have to say that I'm happy to hear this. The church should not be bending to the ways of popular culture. It follows God's teachings, which are clear on this issue.

Not returning for a debate on this as I know that 99% of you don't agree with me, which is fine. But there are some of us who are pleased that the Pope did not cave to political pressure.

Where is it clear?

Paul writes about it in Romans. The Old Testament also condemns homosexual practice, and in several places defines marriage as the union between one man and one woman.

Scholars disagree on how to read 1:26. Some say it is a prohibition against sodomy, regardless of genders involved. So, not clear.

A bit of a tangent here, but I’m curious. Is 1:26 the reference some people use to justify homosexual relations between women and not condone it between men? I’ve heard some people go as far as saying that women cannot be homosexual because they cannot sodomize one another. I think other catechetical elements frown upon sexual acts between any two people outside of marriage, so it’s a moot point as far as the church is concerned.

I'm not familiar with that.

But I find it distressing that a church of a billion people stands for discrimination against gays, when they know they have nearly all broken Church law regarding sex and reproduction. Sex is ordained for reproduction, and "each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life." Nearly every Catholic woman of reproductive age reports having used artificial birth control. I'm sure some think this is justified because they were (nearly) sure they were going to get married, or because in their hearts they know God does not want them to have a fifth child. Or IVF? The Church condemns it and yet Catholic moms will talk about their IVF experiences openly at Church functions! Because how could the church "truly" object to bearing children? God couldn't possibly mean for them to be childless.

Technically, there is nothing wrong with being gay and catholic. But there is a call to live chastely and celibate. Which I know, that is seen as discrimination since straight single people CAN get married in the church. You’re right about the sins again sexuality in general. Yes those people choose those things but technically are still now following the church.

As a catholic, I don’t see how this is surprising to anyone and why anyone who isn’t catholic cares. If you’re gay, there are plenty of Christian ministers who will officiate your wedding. Plenty of churches that will see your marriage as valid in addition to it being legal in this country. Why would you want to be married in a church that doesn’t see gay marriage as valid?

It's not surprising. But if you grow up in a Catholic family and you are gay, you care a lot!

If your Catholic family rejects you because your marriage is an offense against God or they think you are going to hell, you care a lot!

If your family has been Catholic for a millennium and you grew up praying the Rosary and you realize your church is doing an injustice to people, you care!

If you believe in transubstantiation, and there is nowhere else to receive the Eucharist as you know it, you are denied something irreplaceable!

Yes in those situations, that makes sense. But many people just like to criticize the church for it's beliefs for not other reason to criticize. The mormon church doesn't allow gay marriage and I'm sure strict Muslim and Jewish groups don't either. But, only the catholic church gets criticized for it.

Although rare, I'm sure there are gay Catholics who are choosing to live a celibate life and continue to practice their Catholic faith and fully participate in the church in full communion. They accept they won't get married in the church. If someone truly believes in the One Holy Catholic church and is gay, they are likely accept the teachings and not want to be living in sin. Otherwise, there are other churches where they can live a faith in God and feel accepted.

Stop questioning the motives of the posters here. 24% of America was Catholic. I was Catholic. I was raised in a 90% Catholic neighborhood. I studied with the Precious Blood sisters, the Jesuits and the Opus Dei. I was in church 6 days a week. The most meaningful experiences of my childhood were with the Church. Priests were my heroes.

But over the years, the priests are all gone - married or gay. One showed up in the abuse reports. I watched my gay friend struggle with his faith and his family. I bring these things up with an earnest interest in debating the content of papal encyclicals and statements from CDF and to discuss the history of women in the church, of celibacy in the clergy, birth control, homosexuality. All I hear is trite responses like "The Church is not a Democracy" or "join the Episcopalians". I tried the Episcopalians. I had to, because I couldn't defend the Church to my wife when the Church isn't even beginning to open its heart. But it doesn't feel right. Services don't feel real.

This is how a 1,000 year long unbroken line of Catholics comes to an end.

[Anonymous]

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. --Matthew 7:21

What is this will of the Father in heaven?

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." --John 6:40

There are many who claim to be Christian but saying you are Christian does not make you one. If you believe in Jesus you will believe what he said and obey his commandments. Jesus told the woman who was convicted of adultery, "Go and sin no more." This was not a suggestion or an optional "only if you feel like it" set of words, it was a command. A person who is truly a Christian will 100% make the effort to "go and sin no more" and obey what Jesus said.

In the time of Jesus, both adultery (sexual immorality) and homosexuality (abomination) were sins that carried a death sentence. If Jesus told the adulterer to "Go and sin no more" he would have told a homosexual the exact same thing.

To say that the bible does not speak out against homosexuality, or that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality is to twist and omit scripture to get it to say something it does not.

--The men of sodom were homosexuals
--God said he would spare Sodom if only 10 righteous people could be found in the city
--10 righteous people could not be found

Conclusion: homosexuality is not righteous behavior.

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. --1 Corinthians 6:9

Notice here that some in the church were formerly homosexuals but they had repented and turned away from that sin.

What we are seeing, in what is surely the Last Days, is a dividing in the church which happens to be over the issue of homosexuality. Those Christians who obey Jesus will not accept, condone, call normal, approve, nor celebrate this sexual deviance from the normal order God created. As a result, these Christians who know Jesus as Lord and obey his commandments will become persecuted, their churches closed or certainly lose tax exempt status, and just as in communist countries these righteous Christians will lose their jobs, be kicked out of the universities, blocked and banned from social media, and eventually, as stated in the book of Revelation, prohibited from buying or selling.

Those Christians who want to "get along with the world" so as to avoid persecution will hear Jesus say to them, "I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws."

Eventually, the Catholic church is either going to adhere to God's word and purify itself, or it will become as the apostate Episcopalians and compromise with the world, trying to be friends with evil which cannot be done. It explains in Revelation why the 10-horned beast will eventually turn on this "whore church" and destroy it once that church is no longer necessary to achieve power.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP, and I haven't read through this thread, but I have to say that I'm happy to hear this. The church should not be bending to the ways of popular culture. It follows God's teachings, which are clear on this issue.

Not returning for a debate on this as I know that 99% of you don't agree with me, which is fine. But there are some of us who are pleased that the Pope did not cave to political pressure.

Where is it clear?

Paul writes about it in Romans. The Old Testament also condemns homosexual practice, and in several places defines marriage as the union between one man and one woman.

I don’t follow Paul and I don’t believe God speaks through his writings.

Well, then, you just admitted that you pick and choose on the Bible and follow the Word as it is convenient to you. A sin in and of itself. But, whatever. The Bible -- including the OT - states that homosexuality is wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. --Matthew 7:21

What is this will of the Father in heaven?

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." --John 6:40

There are many who claim to be Christian but saying you are Christian does not make you one. If you believe in Jesus you will believe what he said and obey his commandments. Jesus told the woman who was convicted of adultery, "Go and sin no more." This was not a suggestion or an optional "only if you feel like it" set of words, it was a command. A person who is truly a Christian will 100% make the effort to "go and sin no more" and obey what Jesus said.

In the time of Jesus, both adultery (sexual immorality) and homosexuality (abomination) were sins that carried a death sentence. If Jesus told the adulterer to "Go and sin no more" he would have told a homosexual the exact same thing.

To say that the bible does not speak out against homosexuality, or that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality is to twist and omit scripture to get it to say something it does not.

--The men of sodom were homosexuals
--God said he would spare Sodom if only 10 righteous people could be found in the city
--10 righteous people could not be found

Conclusion: homosexuality is not righteous behavior.

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. --1 Corinthians 6:9

Notice here that some in the church were formerly homosexuals but they had repented and turned away from that sin.

What we are seeing, in what is surely the Last Days, is a dividing in the church which happens to be over the issue of homosexuality. Those Christians who obey Jesus will not accept, condone, call normal, approve, nor celebrate this sexual deviance from the normal order God created. As a result, these Christians who know Jesus as Lord and obey his commandments will become persecuted, their churches closed or certainly lose tax exempt status, and just as in communist countries these righteous Christians will lose their jobs, be kicked out of the universities, blocked and banned from social media, and eventually, as stated in the book of Revelation, prohibited from buying or selling.

Those Christians who want to "get along with the world" so as to avoid persecution will hear Jesus say to them, "I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws."

Eventually, the Catholic church is either going to adhere to God's word and purify itself, or it will become as the apostate Episcopalians and compromise with the world, trying to be friends with evil which cannot be done. It explains in Revelation why the 10-horned beast will eventually turn on this "whore church" and destroy it once that church is no longer necessary to achieve power.

Thank you for taking the time to write this. Very well stated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. --Matthew 7:21

What is this will of the Father in heaven?

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." --John 6:40

There are many who claim to be Christian but saying you are Christian does not make you one. If you believe in Jesus you will believe what he said and obey his commandments. Jesus told the woman who was convicted of adultery, "Go and sin no more." This was not a suggestion or an optional "only if you feel like it" set of words, it was a command. A person who is truly a Christian will 100% make the effort to "go and sin no more" and obey what Jesus said.

In the time of Jesus, both adultery (sexual immorality) and homosexuality (abomination) were sins that carried a death sentence. If Jesus told the adulterer to "Go and sin no more" he would have told a homosexual the exact same thing.

To say that the bible does not speak out against homosexuality, or that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality is to twist and omit scripture to get it to say something it does not.

--The men of sodom were homosexuals
--God said he would spare Sodom if only 10 righteous people could be found in the city
--10 righteous people could not be found

Conclusion: homosexuality is not righteous behavior.

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. --1 Corinthians 6:9

Notice here that some in the church were formerly homosexuals but they had repented and turned away from that sin.

What we are seeing, in what is surely the Last Days, is a dividing in the church which happens to be over the issue of homosexuality. Those Christians who obey Jesus will not accept, condone, call normal, approve, nor celebrate this sexual deviance from the normal order God created. As a result, these Christians who know Jesus as Lord and obey his commandments will become persecuted, their churches closed or certainly lose tax exempt status, and just as in communist countries these righteous Christians will lose their jobs, be kicked out of the universities, blocked and banned from social media, and eventually, as stated in the book of Revelation, prohibited from buying or selling.

Those Christians who want to "get along with the world" so as to avoid persecution will hear Jesus say to them, "I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws."

Eventually, the Catholic church is either going to adhere to God's word and purify itself, or it will become as the apostate Episcopalians and compromise with the world, trying to be friends with evil which cannot be done. It explains in Revelation why the 10-horned beast will eventually turn on this "whore church" and destroy it once that church is no longer necessary to achieve power.

Thank you for taking the time to write this. Very well stated.

So everything hangs on the assumption that Jesus "would have" condemned homosexuality, even though he said nothing about it. And even though he rejected the Old Law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP, and I haven't read through this thread, but I have to say that I'm happy to hear this. The church should not be bending to the ways of popular culture. It follows God's teachings, which are clear on this issue.

Not returning for a debate on this as I know that 99% of you don't agree with me, which is fine. But there are some of us who are pleased that the Pope did not cave to political pressure.

Where is it clear?

Paul writes about it in Romans. The Old Testament also condemns homosexual practice, and in several places defines marriage as the union between one man and one woman.

Scholars disagree on how to read 1:26. Some say it is a prohibition against sodomy, regardless of genders involved. So, not clear.

A bit of a tangent here, but I’m curious. Is 1:26 the reference some people use to justify homosexual relations between women and not condone it between men? I’ve heard some people go as far as saying that women cannot be homosexual because they cannot sodomize one another. I think other catechetical elements frown upon sexual acts between any two people outside of marriage, so it’s a moot point as far as the church is concerned.

I'm not familiar with that.

But I find it distressing that a church of a billion people stands for discrimination against gays, when they know they have nearly all broken Church law regarding sex and reproduction. Sex is ordained for reproduction, and "each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life." Nearly every Catholic woman of reproductive age reports having used artificial birth control. I'm sure some think this is justified because they were (nearly) sure they were going to get married, or because in their hearts they know God does not want them to have a fifth child. Or IVF? The Church condemns it and yet Catholic moms will talk about their IVF experiences openly at Church functions! Because how could the church "truly" object to bearing children? God couldn't possibly mean for them to be childless.

Technically, there is nothing wrong with being gay and catholic. But there is a call to live chastely and celibate. Which I know, that is seen as discrimination since straight single people CAN get married in the church. You’re right about the sins again sexuality in general. Yes those people choose those things but technically are still now following the church.

As a catholic, I don’t see how this is surprising to anyone and why anyone who isn’t catholic cares. If you’re gay, there are plenty of Christian ministers who will officiate your wedding. Plenty of churches that will see your marriage as valid in addition to it being legal in this country. Why would you want to be married in a church that doesn’t see gay marriage as valid?

It's not surprising. But if you grow up in a Catholic family and you are gay, you care a lot!

If your Catholic family rejects you because your marriage is an offense against God or they think you are going to hell, you care a lot!

If your family has been Catholic for a millennium and you grew up praying the Rosary and you realize your church is doing an injustice to people, you care!

If you believe in transubstantiation, and there is nowhere else to receive the Eucharist as you know it, you are denied something irreplaceable!

Yes in those situations, that makes sense. But many people just like to criticize the church for it's beliefs for not other reason to criticize. The mormon church doesn't allow gay marriage and I'm sure strict Muslim and Jewish groups don't either. But, only the catholic church gets criticized for it.

Although rare, I'm sure there are gay Catholics who are choosing to live a celibate life and continue to practice their Catholic faith and fully participate in the church in full communion. They accept they won't get married in the church. If someone truly believes in the One Holy Catholic church and is gay, they are likely accept the teachings and not want to be living in sin. Otherwise, there are other churches where they can live a faith in God and feel accepted.

Stop questioning the motives of the posters here. 24% of America was Catholic. I was Catholic. I was raised in a 90% Catholic neighborhood. I studied with the Precious Blood sisters, the Jesuits and the Opus Dei. I was in church 6 days a week. The most meaningful experiences of my childhood were with the Church. Priests were my heroes.

But over the years, the priests are all gone - married or gay. One showed up in the abuse reports. I watched my gay friend struggle with his faith and his family. I bring these things up with an earnest interest in debating the content of papal encyclicals and statements from CDF and to discuss the history of women in the church, of celibacy in the clergy, birth control, homosexuality. All I hear is trite responses like "The Church is not a Democracy" or "join the Episcopalians". I tried the Episcopalians. I had to, because I couldn't defend the Church to my wife when the Church isn't even beginning to open its heart. But it doesn't feel right. Services don't feel real.

This is how a 1,000 year long unbroken line of Catholics comes to an end.

Thank you for taking the time to write this. Very well stated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:NP, and I haven't read through this thread, but I have to say that I'm happy to hear this. The church should not be bending to the ways of popular culture. It follows God's teachings, which are clear on this issue.

Not returning for a debate on this as I know that 99% of you don't agree with me, which is fine. But there are some of us who are pleased that the Pope did not cave to political pressure.

Where is it clear?

Paul writes about it in Romans. The Old Testament also condemns homosexual practice, and in several places defines marriage as the union between one man and one woman.

I don’t follow Paul and I don’t believe God speaks through his writings.

Well, then, you just admitted that you pick and choose on the Bible and follow the Word as it is convenient to you. A sin in and of itself. But, whatever. The Bible -- including the OT - states that homosexuality is wrong.

Like everyone who reads this 2000+ year old book, including YOU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP, and I haven't read through this thread, but I have to say that I'm happy to hear this. The church should not be bending to the ways of popular culture. It follows God's teachings, which are clear on this issue.

Not returning for a debate on this as I know that 99% of you don't agree with me, which is fine. But there are some of us who are pleased that the Pope did not cave to political pressure.

Where is it clear?

Paul writes about it in Romans. The Old Testament also condemns homosexual practice, and in several places defines marriage as the union between one man and one woman.

Scholars disagree on how to read 1:26. Some say it is a prohibition against sodomy, regardless of genders involved. So, not clear.

A bit of a tangent here, but I’m curious. Is 1:26 the reference some people use to justify homosexual relations between women and not condone it between men? I’ve heard some people go as far as saying that women cannot be homosexual because they cannot sodomize one another. I think other catechetical elements frown upon sexual acts between any two people outside of marriage, so it’s a moot point as far as the church is concerned.

I'm not familiar with that.

But I find it distressing that a church of a billion people stands for discrimination against gays, when they know they have nearly all broken Church law regarding sex and reproduction. Sex is ordained for reproduction, and "each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life." Nearly every Catholic woman of reproductive age reports having used artificial birth control. I'm sure some think this is justified because they were (nearly) sure they were going to get married, or because in their hearts they know God does not want them to have a fifth child. Or IVF? The Church condemns it and yet Catholic moms will talk about their IVF experiences openly at Church functions! Because how could the church "truly" object to bearing children? God couldn't possibly mean for them to be childless.

Technically, there is nothing wrong with being gay and catholic. But there is a call to live chastely and celibate. Which I know, that is seen as discrimination since straight single people CAN get married in the church. You’re right about the sins again sexuality in general. Yes those people choose those things but technically are still now following the church.

As a catholic, I don’t see how this is surprising to anyone and why anyone who isn’t catholic cares. If you’re gay, there are plenty of Christian ministers who will officiate your wedding. Plenty of churches that will see your marriage as valid in addition to it being legal in this country. Why would you want to be married in a church that doesn’t see gay marriage as valid?

It's not surprising. But if you grow up in a Catholic family and you are gay, you care a lot!

If your Catholic family rejects you because your marriage is an offense against God or they think you are going to hell, you care a lot!

If your family has been Catholic for a millennium and you grew up praying the Rosary and you realize your church is doing an injustice to people, you care!

If you believe in transubstantiation, and there is nowhere else to receive the Eucharist as you know it, you are denied something irreplaceable!

Yes in those situations, that makes sense. But many people just like to criticize the church for it's beliefs for not other reason to criticize. The mormon church doesn't allow gay marriage and I'm sure strict Muslim and Jewish groups don't either. But, only the catholic church gets criticized for it.

Although rare, I'm sure there are gay Catholics who are choosing to live a celibate life and continue to practice their Catholic faith and fully participate in the church in full communion. They accept they won't get married in the church. If someone truly believes in the One Holy Catholic church and is gay, they are likely accept the teachings and not want to be living in sin. Otherwise, there are other churches where they can live a faith in God and feel accepted.

Stop questioning the motives of the posters here. 24% of America was Catholic. I was Catholic. I was raised in a 90% Catholic neighborhood. I studied with the Precious Blood sisters, the Jesuits and the Opus Dei. I was in church 6 days a week. The most meaningful experiences of my childhood were with the Church. Priests were my heroes.

But over the years, the priests are all gone - married or gay. One showed up in the abuse reports. I watched my gay friend struggle with his faith and his family. I bring these things up with an earnest interest in debating the content of papal encyclicals and statements from CDF and to discuss the history of women in the church, of celibacy in the clergy, birth control, homosexuality. All I hear is trite responses like "The Church is not a Democracy" or "join the Episcopalians". I tried the Episcopalians. I had to, because I couldn't defend the Church to my wife when the Church isn't even beginning to open its heart. But it doesn't feel right. Services don't feel real.

This is how a 1,000 year long unbroken line of Catholics comes to an end.

Maybe because Episcopal churches don't have that little red light that means Jesus is there?

Seriously. there's no going back, and the Episcopal church is as close as you can get without current former Catholics and dissenting priests starting their own parishes.

Now there's an idea!