Who thinks the new TJ admissions proposal will increase URM enrollment?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen the first year. If teachers teach at the same level with the same harsh grading methods, and kids don't have the same level of support at home, it's going to be a mess.

C'mon, you know what is going to happen.

At first, teachers will largely maintain the same curriculum because of inertia and because they have inherent respect for their students.

Then, data will be gathered that it is primarily the unprepared students who cannot handle the work. These students will also turn out to be predominantly URMs. They will be dropping out of TJ to base schools with GPA's that will make them ineligible for competitive college admissions.

Then the curriculum that made TJ what it is will be thrown out, following throwing out the students that made TJ what it is. I give it 2-3 years.

Done.

100% agree. The School Board has ruined TJ for "diversity".

There is no more TJ. It was effectively closed this week.

The cutthroat cheating TJ? Good riddance. Now it can be an excellent STEM school for excellent students.

I really wouldn't call a 3.5 gpa requirement as "excellent". I might have a different opinion if the requirement for the lottery was more stringent- higher gpa (3.8? 3.9?) with specific course prerequisites and majority yes (out of yes/no) recommendation from 3 teachers of student's choosing for example.

I agree that the GPA needs to be higher and there should be a requirement for Honors classes in science and math. I don't have a problem with Algebra being the only math requirement.

Entry into the lottery still requires an application, indicating interest. It also requires meeting specific criteria. The lottery simply increases the chance for kids who come from schools that do not have the same after school options or cultures/opportunities of tutoring or extra STEM classes to be selected. It decreases the need to pad your application to attend. It also will bolster interested kids chances of attending High School with kids from their base school or neighborhood. That should make it a more attractive possibility for kids from schools that are under represented.

I am guessing that they are not going to let lottery spaces go to waste, if there are not 70 kids who meet the requirements from a given region, I would assume that they will have a second lottery for all the applicants who did not get in from across FCPS. I also assume that they will develop a wait list based on the lottery so that if kids who are selected choose not to attend, spots open up for other kids.

I suppose that families who are desperate to increase their odds of attending TJ can move to the school zones where there are fewer kids traditionally applying to TJ in order to increase their chances of attending. That would help improve some of those schools by spreading the uber driven kids from the 2 or 3 schools they are at now and sharing the wealth around the county.

What you are describing here is essentially what they said they will do in the presentation. Best likely example is Prince William. Because of their large population, they have 68 lottery slots. If they don't have 68 kids that qualify for the merit lottery (which I think is probably likely because I think there will be a pretty high bar for entry and I don't think there are a ton of kids interested from PW) then those spots will revert back to the kids at the top of the FCPS Region lotteries.

Additionally, because the barriers for applications are so low, there will be a fair number of families who go ahead and apply but are unsure whether they'll accept an offer - perhaps waiting to hear from the school about concrete changes made to their many cultural issues. There will be a continual rolling admissions process to keep going down the lottery list until I believe the end of the first quarter.

regarding Prince William county, if the bar is the same (3.5 GPA/algebra1) there will be zillions of kids that would qualify. I know for my kids school there are about 50 eighth graders taking geometry with a 4.0, so probably many more with only ALgebra1. My younger DD (8th grade) was not planning on applying because she doesn't want the rigor of TJ (from seeing her brother going to TJ), but we are seriously considering it now since a lottery will probably bring in more students of her "level"(bright but not genius). And for the record, she's asian, and I know a lot more asian families are considering TJ now with the lottery. I really don't think a lottery will solve the URM issues. There might be an increase in Black/Hispanic interest but it will be overshadowed by an even sharper increase in Asian interest. Just my 2 cents. And if PW has 68 spots by lottery, trust me they will be taken because when my older son took the TJ entrance test, there were hundreds of kids there.

Increasing the number of previously uninterested but qualified Asians is good too. As I posted elsewhere, this change will benefit all students including Asians.

Isn't the goal diversity of racial and economic background to reflect the area social make-up? I just don't think a lottery will accomplish it. What will happen is more kids will get in who will not use the resources available (labs,high-level math...) because they are busy taking classes that are available at base schools to satisfy graduation requirements (ex, kids with only algebra 1, will not take any Post AP calculus classes at TJ).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen the first year. If teachers teach at the same level with the same harsh grading methods, and kids don't have the same level of support at home, it's going to be a mess.

C'mon, you know what is going to happen.

At first, teachers will largely maintain the same curriculum because of inertia and because they have inherent respect for their students.

Then, data will be gathered that it is primarily the unprepared students who cannot handle the work. These students will also turn out to be predominantly URMs. They will be dropping out of TJ to base schools with GPA's that will make them ineligible for competitive college admissions.

Then the curriculum that made TJ what it is will be thrown out, following throwing out the students that made TJ what it is. I give it 2-3 years.

Done.

100% agree. The School Board has ruined TJ for "diversity".

There is no more TJ. It was effectively closed this week.

The cutthroat cheating TJ? Good riddance. Now it can be an excellent STEM school for excellent students.

I really wouldn't call a 3.5 gpa requirement as "excellent". I might have a different opinion if the requirement for the lottery was more stringent- higher gpa (3.8? 3.9?) with specific course prerequisites and majority yes (out of yes/no) recommendation from 3 teachers of student's choosing for example.

I agree that the GPA needs to be higher and there should be a requirement for Honors classes in science and math. I don't have a problem with Algebra being the only math requirement.

Entry into the lottery still requires an application, indicating interest. It also requires meeting specific criteria. The lottery simply increases the chance for kids who come from schools that do not have the same after school options or cultures/opportunities of tutoring or extra STEM classes to be selected. It decreases the need to pad your application to attend. It also will bolster interested kids chances of attending High School with kids from their base school or neighborhood. That should make it a more attractive possibility for kids from schools that are under represented.

I am guessing that they are not going to let lottery spaces go to waste, if there are not 70 kids who meet the requirements from a given region, I would assume that they will have a second lottery for all the applicants who did not get in from across FCPS. I also assume that they will develop a wait list based on the lottery so that if kids who are selected choose not to attend, spots open up for other kids.

I suppose that families who are desperate to increase their odds of attending TJ can move to the school zones where there are fewer kids traditionally applying to TJ in order to increase their chances of attending. That would help improve some of those schools by spreading the uber driven kids from the 2 or 3 schools they are at now and sharing the wealth around the county.

What you are describing here is essentially what they said they will do in the presentation. Best likely example is Prince William. Because of their large population, they have 68 lottery slots. If they don't have 68 kids that qualify for the merit lottery (which I think is probably likely because I think there will be a pretty high bar for entry and I don't think there are a ton of kids interested from PW) then those spots will revert back to the kids at the top of the FCPS Region lotteries.

Additionally, because the barriers for applications are so low, there will be a fair number of families who go ahead and apply but are unsure whether they'll accept an offer - perhaps waiting to hear from the school about concrete changes made to their many cultural issues. There will be a continual rolling admissions process to keep going down the lottery list until I believe the end of the first quarter.

regarding Prince William county, if the bar is the same (3.5 GPA/algebra1) there will be zillions of kids that would qualify. I know for my kids school there are about 50 eighth graders taking geometry with a 4.0, so probably many more with only ALgebra1. My younger DD (8th grade) was not planning on applying because she doesn't want the rigor of TJ (from seeing her brother going to TJ), but we are seriously considering it now since a lottery will probably bring in more students of her "level"(bright but not genius). And for the record, she's asian, and I know a lot more asian families are considering TJ now with the lottery. I really don't think a lottery will solve the URM issues. There might be an increase in Black/Hispanic interest but it will be overshadowed by an even sharper increase in Asian interest. Just my 2 cents. And if PW has 68 spots by lottery, trust me they will be taken because when my older son took the TJ entrance test, there were hundreds of kids there.

That's fine - but I seriously don't believe that kids with a 3.5 GPA who are in Algebra 1, despite the fact that those kids are qualified to apply, will actually be placed in the merit lottery. The Admissions Office/FCPS/SB does not want a situation where they end up admitting a bunch of kids who crash and burn. I think the metrics to actually get placed will be relatively high as a result.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

I wholeheartedly agree. The tragedy of it all is that the gifted URM who actually wants to go, and who had a decent chance of getting in before, will have less of a chance to get in under the lottery system.

Agree with this in theory, but there is no way they won’t figure that out as admissions are rolling in and then they will scramble to “fix” the glitch. I predict this “lottery” will not be done at random from the qualified pool. That would be too great “risk” that the outcome won’t be equitable. So at least for the first few years they will make sure to select by race as the top criteria in each area at the “lottery” phase.

One main problem that OP touched on is the lack of outreach and prep among URM populations. But prep isn’t just a process used to get IN. It’s part of the home life and culture of those students who attend and succeed at TJ. If people don’t want the rigor and intensity to change at TJ (and also want students who are admitted under this new system to succeed there) then changing the admissions process to check the equity box is not enough, and I hope the school board knows this. We need to reach kids from URMs much earlier in their academic start.

What you are missing is that there are already URMs who come from families where academic rigor is the expectation. To suggest otherwise is just plain racist.

[Anonymous]

What you are missing is that there are already URMs who come from families where academic rigor is the expectation. To suggest otherwise is just plain racist.

Then, why are they not applying to TJ? Maybe, they don't want to go there.

I think it is presumptuous to believe that everyone wants to go to TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

I wholeheartedly agree. The tragedy of it all is that the gifted URM who actually wants to go, and who had a decent chance of getting in before, will have less of a chance to get in under the lottery system.

Agree with this in theory, but there is no way they won’t figure that out as admissions are rolling in and then they will scramble to “fix” the glitch. I predict this “lottery” will not be done at random from the qualified pool. That would be too great “risk” that the outcome won’t be equitable. So at least for the first few years they will make sure to select by race as the top criteria in each area at the “lottery” phase.

One main problem that OP touched on is the lack of outreach and prep among URM populations. But prep isn’t just a process used to get IN. It’s part of the home life and culture of those students who attend and succeed at TJ. If people don’t want the rigor and intensity to change at TJ (and also want students who are admitted under this new system to succeed there) then changing the admissions process to check the equity box is not enough, and I hope the school board knows this. We need to reach kids from URMs much earlier in their academic start.

There are qualified URM kids in FCPS who have excellent academic records who choose not to apply to TJ under the current system. Maybe some of them will apply under the new system and get in via the lottery. The current system isn't working for most students in FCPS as evidenced by large segments across socioeconomic backgrounds who don't want to be a part of the current TJ culture. I welcome the change and we'll see how it works out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen the first year. If teachers teach at the same level with the same harsh grading methods, and kids don't have the same level of support at home, it's going to be a mess.

C'mon, you know what is going to happen.

At first, teachers will largely maintain the same curriculum because of inertia and because they have inherent respect for their students.

Then, data will be gathered that it is primarily the unprepared students who cannot handle the work. These students will also turn out to be predominantly URMs. They will be dropping out of TJ to base schools with GPA's that will make them ineligible for competitive college admissions.

Then the curriculum that made TJ what it is will be thrown out, following throwing out the students that made TJ what it is. I give it 2-3 years.

Done.

100% agree. The School Board has ruined TJ for "diversity".

There is no more TJ. It was effectively closed this week.

The cutthroat cheating TJ? Good riddance. Now it can be an excellent STEM school for excellent students.

I really wouldn't call a 3.5 gpa requirement as "excellent". I might have a different opinion if the requirement for the lottery was more stringent- higher gpa (3.8? 3.9?) with specific course prerequisites and majority yes (out of yes/no) recommendation from 3 teachers of student's choosing for example.

I agree that the GPA needs to be higher and there should be a requirement for Honors classes in science and math. I don't have a problem with Algebra being the only math requirement.

Entry into the lottery still requires an application, indicating interest. It also requires meeting specific criteria. The lottery simply increases the chance for kids who come from schools that do not have the same after school options or cultures/opportunities of tutoring or extra STEM classes to be selected. It decreases the need to pad your application to attend. It also will bolster interested kids chances of attending High School with kids from their base school or neighborhood. That should make it a more attractive possibility for kids from schools that are under represented.

I am guessing that they are not going to let lottery spaces go to waste, if there are not 70 kids who meet the requirements from a given region, I would assume that they will have a second lottery for all the applicants who did not get in from across FCPS. I also assume that they will develop a wait list based on the lottery so that if kids who are selected choose not to attend, spots open up for other kids.

I suppose that families who are desperate to increase their odds of attending TJ can move to the school zones where there are fewer kids traditionally applying to TJ in order to increase their chances of attending. That would help improve some of those schools by spreading the uber driven kids from the 2 or 3 schools they are at now and sharing the wealth around the county.

What you are describing here is essentially what they said they will do in the presentation. Best likely example is Prince William. Because of their large population, they have 68 lottery slots. If they don't have 68 kids that qualify for the merit lottery (which I think is probably likely because I think there will be a pretty high bar for entry and I don't think there are a ton of kids interested from PW) then those spots will revert back to the kids at the top of the FCPS Region lotteries.

Additionally, because the barriers for applications are so low, there will be a fair number of families who go ahead and apply but are unsure whether they'll accept an offer - perhaps waiting to hear from the school about concrete changes made to their many cultural issues. There will be a continual rolling admissions process to keep going down the lottery list until I believe the end of the first quarter.

regarding Prince William county, if the bar is the same (3.5 GPA/algebra1) there will be zillions of kids that would qualify. I know for my kids school there are about 50 eighth graders taking geometry with a 4.0, so probably many more with only ALgebra1. My younger DD (8th grade) was not planning on applying because she doesn't want the rigor of TJ (from seeing her brother going to TJ), but we are seriously considering it now since a lottery will probably bring in more students of her "level"(bright but not genius). And for the record, she's asian, and I know a lot more asian families are considering TJ now with the lottery. I really don't think a lottery will solve the URM issues. There might be an increase in Black/Hispanic interest but it will be overshadowed by an even sharper increase in Asian interest. Just my 2 cents. And if PW has 68 spots by lottery, trust me they will be taken because when my older son took the TJ entrance test, there were hundreds of kids there.

That's fine - but I seriously don't believe that kids with a 3.5 GPA who are in Algebra 1, despite the fact that those kids are qualified to apply, will actually be placed in the merit lottery. The Admissions Office/FCPS/SB does not want a situation where they end up admitting a bunch of kids who crash and burn. I think the metrics to actually get placed will be relatively high as a result.

Ok , if what you think is true then that's a different ball game. But who's deciding who gets put in the lottery? They have to make their admission process clear. Right now, it seems like a 3.5 GPA and Algebra 1 is the golden ticket.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen the first year. If teachers teach at the same level with the same harsh grading methods, and kids don't have the same level of support at home, it's going to be a mess.

C'mon, you know what is going to happen.

At first, teachers will largely maintain the same curriculum because of inertia and because they have inherent respect for their students.

Then, data will be gathered that it is primarily the unprepared students who cannot handle the work. These students will also turn out to be predominantly URMs. They will be dropping out of TJ to base schools with GPA's that will make them ineligible for competitive college admissions.

Then the curriculum that made TJ what it is will be thrown out, following throwing out the students that made TJ what it is. I give it 2-3 years.

Done.

100% agree. The School Board has ruined TJ for "diversity".

There is no more TJ. It was effectively closed this week.

The cutthroat cheating TJ? Good riddance. Now it can be an excellent STEM school for excellent students.

I really wouldn't call a 3.5 gpa requirement as "excellent". I might have a different opinion if the requirement for the lottery was more stringent- higher gpa (3.8? 3.9?) with specific course prerequisites and majority yes (out of yes/no) recommendation from 3 teachers of student's choosing for example.

I agree that the GPA needs to be higher and there should be a requirement for Honors classes in science and math. I don't have a problem with Algebra being the only math requirement.

Entry into the lottery still requires an application, indicating interest. It also requires meeting specific criteria. The lottery simply increases the chance for kids who come from schools that do not have the same after school options or cultures/opportunities of tutoring or extra STEM classes to be selected. It decreases the need to pad your application to attend. It also will bolster interested kids chances of attending High School with kids from their base school or neighborhood. That should make it a more attractive possibility for kids from schools that are under represented.

I am guessing that they are not going to let lottery spaces go to waste, if there are not 70 kids who meet the requirements from a given region, I would assume that they will have a second lottery for all the applicants who did not get in from across FCPS. I also assume that they will develop a wait list based on the lottery so that if kids who are selected choose not to attend, spots open up for other kids.

I suppose that families who are desperate to increase their odds of attending TJ can move to the school zones where there are fewer kids traditionally applying to TJ in order to increase their chances of attending. That would help improve some of those schools by spreading the uber driven kids from the 2 or 3 schools they are at now and sharing the wealth around the county.

What you are describing here is essentially what they said they will do in the presentation. Best likely example is Prince William. Because of their large population, they have 68 lottery slots. If they don't have 68 kids that qualify for the merit lottery (which I think is probably likely because I think there will be a pretty high bar for entry and I don't think there are a ton of kids interested from PW) then those spots will revert back to the kids at the top of the FCPS Region lotteries.

Additionally, because the barriers for applications are so low, there will be a fair number of families who go ahead and apply but are unsure whether they'll accept an offer - perhaps waiting to hear from the school about concrete changes made to their many cultural issues. There will be a continual rolling admissions process to keep going down the lottery list until I believe the end of the first quarter.

regarding Prince William county, if the bar is the same (3.5 GPA/algebra1) there will be zillions of kids that would qualify. I know for my kids school there are about 50 eighth graders taking geometry with a 4.0, so probably many more with only ALgebra1. My younger DD (8th grade) was not planning on applying because she doesn't want the rigor of TJ (from seeing her brother going to TJ), but we are seriously considering it now since a lottery will probably bring in more students of her "level"(bright but not genius). And for the record, she's asian, and I know a lot more asian families are considering TJ now with the lottery. I really don't think a lottery will solve the URM issues. There might be an increase in Black/Hispanic interest but it will be overshadowed by an even sharper increase in Asian interest. Just my 2 cents. And if PW has 68 spots by lottery, trust me they will be taken because when my older son took the TJ entrance test, there were hundreds of kids there.

That's fine - but I seriously don't believe that kids with a 3.5 GPA who are in Algebra 1, despite the fact that those kids are qualified to apply, will actually be placed in the merit lottery. The Admissions Office/FCPS/SB does not want a situation where they end up admitting a bunch of kids who crash and burn. I think the metrics to actually get placed will be relatively high as a result.

Ok , if what you think is true then that's a different ball game. But who's deciding who gets put in the lottery? They have to make their admission process clear. Right now, it seems like a 3.5 GPA and Algebra 1 is the golden ticket.

I disagree that that's what it seems like. They will make decisions about each individual student based on their report card and their questionnaire and make a holistic determination of a) can this student be successful and b) is this a student that we want? The 3.5 and Alg 1 are nothing more than the standards to apply - they are not going to be the standards to get into the lottery.

The same people (the TJ admissions office and the TJ admissions committee) have been doing this for a generation.

This is really important: I believe that the single biggest thing that they're hoping for by proposing this lottery is to get high-quality URM applicants to apply because a) it's way easier to do so, b) they feel like there is a real shot to have a lot of them there, and c) they don't feel like they have to spend thousands of dollars on prep to get there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

I think it will increase white kid enrollment, which is the real goal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen the first year. If teachers teach at the same level with the same harsh grading methods, and kids don't have the same level of support at home, it's going to be a mess.

C'mon, you know what is going to happen.

At first, teachers will largely maintain the same curriculum because of inertia and because they have inherent respect for their students.

Then, data will be gathered that it is primarily the unprepared students who cannot handle the work. These students will also turn out to be predominantly URMs. They will be dropping out of TJ to base schools with GPA's that will make them ineligible for competitive college admissions.

Then the curriculum that made TJ what it is will be thrown out, following throwing out the students that made TJ what it is. I give it 2-3 years.

Done.

100% agree. The School Board has ruined TJ for "diversity".

There is no more TJ. It was effectively closed this week.

The cutthroat cheating TJ? Good riddance. Now it can be an excellent STEM school for excellent students.

I really wouldn't call a 3.5 gpa requirement as "excellent". I might have a different opinion if the requirement for the lottery was more stringent- higher gpa (3.8? 3.9?) with specific course prerequisites and majority yes (out of yes/no) recommendation from 3 teachers of student's choosing for example.

I agree that the GPA needs to be higher and there should be a requirement for Honors classes in science and math. I don't have a problem with Algebra being the only math requirement.

Entry into the lottery still requires an application, indicating interest. It also requires meeting specific criteria. The lottery simply increases the chance for kids who come from schools that do not have the same after school options or cultures/opportunities of tutoring or extra STEM classes to be selected. It decreases the need to pad your application to attend. It also will bolster interested kids chances of attending High School with kids from their base school or neighborhood. That should make it a more attractive possibility for kids from schools that are under represented.

I am guessing that they are not going to let lottery spaces go to waste, if there are not 70 kids who meet the requirements from a given region, I would assume that they will have a second lottery for all the applicants who did not get in from across FCPS. I also assume that they will develop a wait list based on the lottery so that if kids who are selected choose not to attend, spots open up for other kids.

I suppose that families who are desperate to increase their odds of attending TJ can move to the school zones where there are fewer kids traditionally applying to TJ in order to increase their chances of attending. That would help improve some of those schools by spreading the uber driven kids from the 2 or 3 schools they are at now and sharing the wealth around the county.

What you are describing here is essentially what they said they will do in the presentation. Best likely example is Prince William. Because of their large population, they have 68 lottery slots. If they don't have 68 kids that qualify for the merit lottery (which I think is probably likely because I think there will be a pretty high bar for entry and I don't think there are a ton of kids interested from PW) then those spots will revert back to the kids at the top of the FCPS Region lotteries.

Additionally, because the barriers for applications are so low, there will be a fair number of families who go ahead and apply but are unsure whether they'll accept an offer - perhaps waiting to hear from the school about concrete changes made to their many cultural issues. There will be a continual rolling admissions process to keep going down the lottery list until I believe the end of the first quarter.

regarding Prince William county, if the bar is the same (3.5 GPA/algebra1) there will be zillions of kids that would qualify. I know for my kids school there are about 50 eighth graders taking geometry with a 4.0, so probably many more with only ALgebra1. My younger DD (8th grade) was not planning on applying because she doesn't want the rigor of TJ (from seeing her brother going to TJ), but we are seriously considering it now since a lottery will probably bring in more students of her "level"(bright but not genius). And for the record, she's asian, and I know a lot more asian families are considering TJ now with the lottery. I really don't think a lottery will solve the URM issues. There might be an increase in Black/Hispanic interest but it will be overshadowed by an even sharper increase in Asian interest. Just my 2 cents. And if PW has 68 spots by lottery, trust me they will be taken because when my older son took the TJ entrance test, there were hundreds of kids there.

That's fine - but I seriously don't believe that kids with a 3.5 GPA who are in Algebra 1, despite the fact that those kids are qualified to apply, will actually be placed in the merit lottery. The Admissions Office/FCPS/SB does not want a situation where they end up admitting a bunch of kids who crash and burn. I think the metrics to actually get placed will be relatively high as a result.

Ok , if what you think is true then that's a different ball game. But who's deciding who gets put in the lottery? They have to make their admission process clear. Right now, it seems like a 3.5 GPA and Algebra 1 is the golden ticket.

I disagree that that's what it seems like. They will make decisions about each individual student based on their report card and their questionnaire and make a holistic determination of a) can this student be successful and b) is this a student that we want? The 3.5 and Alg 1 are nothing more than the standards to apply - they are not going to be the standards to get into the lottery.

The same people (the TJ admissions office and the TJ admissions committee) have been doing this for a generation.

This is really important: I believe that the single biggest thing that they're hoping for by proposing this lottery is to get high-quality URM applicants to apply because a) it's way easier to do so, b) they feel like there is a real shot to have a lot of them there, and c) they don't feel like they have to spend thousands of dollars on prep to get there.

DP. And d) the culture of the school is better and less toxic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

I wholeheartedly agree. The tragedy of it all is that the gifted URM who actually wants to go, and who had a decent chance of getting in before, will have less of a chance to get in under the lottery system.

Agree with this in theory, but there is no way they won’t figure that out as admissions are rolling in and then they will scramble to “fix” the glitch. I predict this “lottery” will not be done at random from the qualified pool. That would be too great “risk” that the outcome won’t be equitable. So at least for the first few years they will make sure to select by race as the top criteria in each area at the “lottery” phase.

One main problem that OP touched on is the lack of outreach and prep among URM populations. But prep isn’t just a process used to get IN. It’s part of the home life and culture of those students who attend and succeed at TJ. If people don’t want the rigor and intensity to change at TJ (and also want students who are admitted under this new system to succeed there) then changing the admissions process to check the equity box is not enough, and I hope the school board knows this. We need to reach kids from URMs much earlier in their academic start.

There are qualified URM kids in FCPS who have excellent academic records who choose not to apply to TJ under the current system. Maybe some of them will apply under the new system and get in via the lottery. The current system isn't working for most students in FCPS as evidenced by large segments across socioeconomic backgrounds who don't want to be a part of the current TJ culture. I welcome the change and we'll see how it works out.

Yes, I'm sure there are qualified URM kids with excellent academic records who don't want to apply to the current TJ, but there are also plenty of qualified Asian/white kids that do not apply for the same reason. I just think there will be a far larger increase in Asian/white applications with the new system and this will unfortunately drown out the URM applications, making it even harder for the URM kids to get in.

[Anonymous]

Here are profiles of two hypothetical students.

Student A: 3.1 GPA, Algebra 1, 51st percentile QQ, 78th percentile ACT-E, 92nd percentile ACT-S

Student B: 3.9 GPA, Pre-Calc, 97th percentile QQ, 73rd percentile ACT-E, 98th percentile ACT-S

In the previous iteration of the process, Student A would have been a semifinalist and Student B would not.

Now, would Student A have had a realistic shot to get in? Unlikely, but perhaps with an exceptional resume of STEM activities.

In the new process, Student A will be ineligible to apply.

I would submit that there might need to be a higher tier, never released to the public, that gives Student B a chance to be automatically admitted and not be subjected to the lottery.

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Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

I wholeheartedly agree. The tragedy of it all is that the gifted URM who actually wants to go, and who had a decent chance of getting in before, will have less of a chance to get in under the lottery system.

Agree with this in theory, but there is no way they won’t figure that out as admissions are rolling in and then they will scramble to “fix” the glitch. I predict this “lottery” will not be done at random from the qualified pool. That would be too great “risk” that the outcome won’t be equitable. So at least for the first few years they will make sure to select by race as the top criteria in each area at the “lottery” phase.

One main problem that OP touched on is the lack of outreach and prep among URM populations. But prep isn’t just a process used to get IN. It’s part of the home life and culture of those students who attend and succeed at TJ. If people don’t want the rigor and intensity to change at TJ (and also want students who are admitted under this new system to succeed there) then changing the admissions process to check the equity box is not enough, and I hope the school board knows this. We need to reach kids from URMs much earlier in their academic start.

There are qualified URM kids in FCPS who have excellent academic records who choose not to apply to TJ under the current system. Maybe some of them will apply under the new system and get in via the lottery. The current system isn't working for most students in FCPS as evidenced by large segments across socioeconomic backgrounds who don't want to be a part of the current TJ culture. I welcome the change and we'll see how it works out.

Yes, I'm sure there are qualified URM kids with excellent academic records who don't want to apply to the current TJ, but there are also plenty of qualified Asian/white kids that do not apply for the same reason. I just think there will be a far larger increase in Asian/white applications with the new system and this will unfortunately drown out the URM applications, making it even harder for the URM kids to get in.

That's a possibility - but I think it's likely that the geographic pipelines will have a good chance to solve this.

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Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

What you don't understand is that many highly qualified URMs don't want to attend TJ because they think they won't fit in. DD is a straight A student in AAP at a TJ feeder and she refuses to apply to TJ because she thinks she will not fit into the culture (a culture of cheating, racism, few minorities, few girls, etc...). This is sad considering that she loves STEM and wants to be an engineer.

How do we go about convincing people that these perceptions of the culture are incorrect?

Change the culture. The school board is right.

Whether this new admissions process will work is something that we'll find out in the next few years. Something needed to change though, so it's good that they did this.

+1000. The culture at TJ is so toxic that most of the kids and parents there don't even realize it because it's the only thing they know from their feeder middle schools and prep classes.

You see tons of parents posting on this board that they don't believe that it's so toxic, but when you get current students talking to alums from 10-20 years ago, the elders are horrified at what the school has become. Not because of the racial demographics, but because of the narratives that the kids present about what the school is and how they just accept that "that's TJ, that's what you sign up for".

TJ wasn't always insanely competitive. TJ kids didn't always spend every waking hour worrying about college - but the kids still mostly got into the schools they wanted to get into. TJ kids weren't always obsessed with taking every 8th period and trying to cram in another resume-booster or another study period.

How much of this is due to changes at TJ and how much is due to changes in the volume of college admissions and the top colleges constantly signaling that they are looking for candidates who aren't just "normal great" like the bulk of TJ students (and many other kids at base schools) but have some special "it" quality (that, as often as not, is harder for Asian kids to demonstrate to the satisfaction of admissions officers)?

You can reconstitute TJ but that doesn't make the college arms race disappear overnight.

You kind of told on yourself here. My point is, back that long ago TJ kids were not that worried about what college they went to. They largely understood that there were tons of colleges that students could go to and have a wonderful experience, and that their eventual outcomes wouldn't be tremendously different depending on where they went. They understood that it was really hard to get into an Ivy League school, and many of them didn't worry about applying. They generally didn't want to sacrifice their wonderful high school experience to try to maximize their chances of winning a game they were likely to lose anyway. And you know what? A lot of them ended up there anyway because they had great experiences to draw from in their essay writing.

And that's the greater point. Families at TJ now view college as an arms race to be won, largely because that's what TJ has been for years and that's the game they've been playing to get there. But that's not the college game - and in spite of TJ counselors trying to get families to understand that, they refuse to and their kids keep losing, and stressing themselves out in the process of losing.

That is completely false.

No, it's not. TJ students maybe started thinking seriously about college in those days around the end of their sophomore year, beginning of their junior year. Before that they were focused on their high school experience. Getting good grades, working hard, but also pursuing passions and things that they genuinely enjoyed without a ton of concern for college. Working paying jobs or traveling in the summers instead of seeking out whatever internships appeared the most prestigious.

Nowadays TJ students and their families are concerned with angling for college admissions outcomes well before they even get to TJ.

Were there students back then who behaved like TJ students do today with respect to college? Sure, of course there were. But now it's ubiquitous.

Over 100 students in the class of 2000 applied to Princeton (over 1/4 of the class!). The major local summer internship programs (SEAP, NIH, etc) were overwhelmingly TJ students. I think you have some rose-colored glasses on.

Guarantee you that number is a LOT higher now. I wouldn't be surprised if it were as high as 250.

You are incorrect. It’s still about 100.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

I think it will increase white kid enrollment, which is the real goal.

I think you are confusing whites who advocate for TJ reform with whites who want more white kids at TJ.

There are whites advocating for TJ reform who see increasing the enrollment of Black, Hispanic and low-income students as a way for them to demonstrate they are allies. That is their main goal, not getting more white kids into TJ. Some of them went to or have kids at TJ; others are happy with their base schools. And some of the main advocates for reform are Black and South Asian.

This may not be intuitive to people who have a narrow concept of self-interest that extends only to getting their own kids into a single high school.

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No, it's not. TJ students maybe started thinking seriously about college in those days around the end of their sophomore year, beginning of their junior year. Before that they were focused on their high school experience. Getting good grades, working hard, but also pursuing passions and things that they genuinely enjoyed without a ton of concern for college. Working paying jobs or traveling in the summers instead of seeking out whatever internships appeared the most prestigious.

Nowadays TJ students and their families are concerned with angling for college admissions outcomes well before they even get to TJ.

Were there students back then who behaved like TJ students do today with respect to college? Sure, of course there were. But now it's ubiquitous.

Next thing you know, you'll say TJ graduates "back in the day" paid for college with summer jobs!

Look, things have changed since then. College admission is a different ballgame now. Making yourself an attractive candidate is a different ballgame now. It's different for everyone! At every high school across the nation. Not just TJ.

PP. They definitely did not pay for college with summer jobs, at least not in large numbers. A few did work during college as needed, but for the most part TJ was every bit as affluent then as it is now.

And the point is, in those days the primary motivation was not college. It was enjoying the rigorous high school environment, working hard and playing hard, FOR ITS OWN SAKE, not as a springboard or a stepping stone to something else.

DP - Certainly there were some kids with an unhealthy obsession over college admission and resume building back then, but many weren't. I think that's flipped with today's TJ.

You are forgetting that back then TJ was majority white/Jewish and they didn’t have to worry about college as much since they had legacy and connections that Asian TJ students certainly do not have.

On top of that, colleges are more competitive now and Asian students are penalized in college admissions so they have no choice but to try harder than your typical white TJ student 20 years ago.