Who thinks the new TJ admissions proposal will increase URM enrollment?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

What you don't understand is that many highly qualified URMs don't want to attend TJ because they think they won't fit in. DD is a straight A student in AAP at a TJ feeder and she refuses to apply to TJ because she thinks she will not fit into the culture (a culture of cheating, racism, few minorities, few girls, etc...). This is sad considering that she loves STEM and wants to be an engineer.

How do we go about convincing people that these perceptions of the culture are incorrect?

Change the culture. The school board is right.

Whether this new admissions process will work is something that we'll find out in the next few years. Something needed to change though, so it's good that they did this.

+1000. The culture at TJ is so toxic that most of the kids and parents there don't even realize it because it's the only thing they know from their feeder middle schools and prep classes.

You see tons of parents posting on this board that they don't believe that it's so toxic, but when you get current students talking to alums from 10-20 years ago, the elders are horrified at what the school has become. Not because of the racial demographics, but because of the narratives that the kids present about what the school is and how they just accept that "that's TJ, that's what you sign up for".

TJ wasn't always insanely competitive. TJ kids didn't always spend every waking hour worrying about college - but the kids still mostly got into the schools they wanted to get into. TJ kids weren't always obsessed with taking every 8th period and trying to cram in another resume-booster or another study period.

How much of this is due to changes at TJ and how much is due to changes in the volume of college admissions and the top colleges constantly signaling that they are looking for candidates who aren't just "normal great" like the bulk of TJ students (and many other kids at base schools) but have some special "it" quality (that, as often as not, is harder for Asian kids to demonstrate to the satisfaction of admissions officers)?

You can reconstitute TJ but that doesn't make the college arms race disappear overnight.

You kind of told on yourself here. My point is, back that long ago TJ kids were not that worried about what college they went to. They largely understood that there were tons of colleges that students could go to and have a wonderful experience, and that their eventual outcomes wouldn't be tremendously different depending on where they went. They understood that it was really hard to get into an Ivy League school, and many of them didn't worry about applying. They generally didn't want to sacrifice their wonderful high school experience to try to maximize their chances of winning a game they were likely to lose anyway. And you know what? A lot of them ended up there anyway because they had great experiences to draw from in their essay writing.

And that's the greater point. Families at TJ now view college as an arms race to be won, largely because that's what TJ has been for years and that's the game they've been playing to get there. But that's not the college game - and in spite of TJ counselors trying to get families to understand that, they refuse to and their kids keep losing, and stressing themselves out in the process of losing.

That is completely false.

No, it's not. TJ students maybe started thinking seriously about college in those days around the end of their sophomore year, beginning of their junior year. Before that they were focused on their high school experience. Getting good grades, working hard, but also pursuing passions and things that they genuinely enjoyed without a ton of concern for college. Working paying jobs or traveling in the summers instead of seeking out whatever internships appeared the most prestigious.

Nowadays TJ students and their families are concerned with angling for college admissions outcomes well before they even get to TJ.

Were there students back then who behaved like TJ students do today with respect to college? Sure, of course there were. But now it's ubiquitous.

Over 100 students in the class of 2000 applied to Princeton (over 1/4 of the class!). The major local summer internship programs (SEAP, NIH, etc) were overwhelmingly TJ students. I think you have some rose-colored glasses on.

Guarantee you that number is a LOT higher now. I wouldn't be surprised if it were as high as 250.

You are incorrect. It’s still about 100.

I love how this poster hasn't returned after he/she has been proven wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

What you don't understand is that many highly qualified URMs don't want to attend TJ because they think they won't fit in. DD is a straight A student in AAP at a TJ feeder and she refuses to apply to TJ because she thinks she will not fit into the culture (a culture of cheating, racism, few minorities, few girls, etc...). This is sad considering that she loves STEM and wants to be an engineer.

How do we go about convincing people that these perceptions of the culture are incorrect?

Change the culture. The school board is right.

Whether this new admissions process will work is something that we'll find out in the next few years. Something needed to change though, so it's good that they did this.

+1000. The culture at TJ is so toxic that most of the kids and parents there don't even realize it because it's the only thing they know from their feeder middle schools and prep classes.

You see tons of parents posting on this board that they don't believe that it's so toxic, but when you get current students talking to alums from 10-20 years ago, the elders are horrified at what the school has become. Not because of the racial demographics, but because of the narratives that the kids present about what the school is and how they just accept that "that's TJ, that's what you sign up for".

TJ wasn't always insanely competitive. TJ kids didn't always spend every waking hour worrying about college - but the kids still mostly got into the schools they wanted to get into. TJ kids weren't always obsessed with taking every 8th period and trying to cram in another resume-booster or another study period.

How much of this is due to changes at TJ and how much is due to changes in the volume of college admissions and the top colleges constantly signaling that they are looking for candidates who aren't just "normal great" like the bulk of TJ students (and many other kids at base schools) but have some special "it" quality (that, as often as not, is harder for Asian kids to demonstrate to the satisfaction of admissions officers)?

You can reconstitute TJ but that doesn't make the college arms race disappear overnight.

You kind of told on yourself here. My point is, back that long ago TJ kids were not that worried about what college they went to. They largely understood that there were tons of colleges that students could go to and have a wonderful experience, and that their eventual outcomes wouldn't be tremendously different depending on where they went. They understood that it was really hard to get into an Ivy League school, and many of them didn't worry about applying. They generally didn't want to sacrifice their wonderful high school experience to try to maximize their chances of winning a game they were likely to lose anyway. And you know what? A lot of them ended up there anyway because they had great experiences to draw from in their essay writing.

And that's the greater point. Families at TJ now view college as an arms race to be won, largely because that's what TJ has been for years and that's the game they've been playing to get there. But that's not the college game - and in spite of TJ counselors trying to get families to understand that, they refuse to and their kids keep losing, and stressing themselves out in the process of losing.

That is completely false.

No, it's not. TJ students maybe started thinking seriously about college in those days around the end of their sophomore year, beginning of their junior year. Before that they were focused on their high school experience. Getting good grades, working hard, but also pursuing passions and things that they genuinely enjoyed without a ton of concern for college. Working paying jobs or traveling in the summers instead of seeking out whatever internships appeared the most prestigious.

Nowadays TJ students and their families are concerned with angling for college admissions outcomes well before they even get to TJ.

Were there students back then who behaved like TJ students do today with respect to college? Sure, of course there were. But now it's ubiquitous.

Over 100 students in the class of 2000 applied to Princeton (over 1/4 of the class!). The major local summer internship programs (SEAP, NIH, etc) were overwhelmingly TJ students. I think you have some rose-colored glasses on.

Guarantee you that number is a LOT higher now. I wouldn't be surprised if it were as high as 250.

You are incorrect. It’s still about 100.

I love how this poster hasn't returned after he/she has been proven wrong.

My fault - I have a job. I stand corrected on this one. Genuinely surprised because the TJ kids talk regularly about all applying to most of the Ivies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

What you don't understand is that many highly qualified URMs don't want to attend TJ because they think they won't fit in. DD is a straight A student in AAP at a TJ feeder and she refuses to apply to TJ because she thinks she will not fit into the culture (a culture of cheating, racism, few minorities, few girls, etc...). This is sad considering that she loves STEM and wants to be an engineer.

How do we go about convincing people that these perceptions of the culture are incorrect?

Change the culture. The school board is right.

Whether this new admissions process will work is something that we'll find out in the next few years. Something needed to change though, so it's good that they did this.

+1000. The culture at TJ is so toxic that most of the kids and parents there don't even realize it because it's the only thing they know from their feeder middle schools and prep classes.

You see tons of parents posting on this board that they don't believe that it's so toxic, but when you get current students talking to alums from 10-20 years ago, the elders are horrified at what the school has become. Not because of the racial demographics, but because of the narratives that the kids present about what the school is and how they just accept that "that's TJ, that's what you sign up for".

TJ wasn't always insanely competitive. TJ kids didn't always spend every waking hour worrying about college - but the kids still mostly got into the schools they wanted to get into. TJ kids weren't always obsessed with taking every 8th period and trying to cram in another resume-booster or another study period.

How much of this is due to changes at TJ and how much is due to changes in the volume of college admissions and the top colleges constantly signaling that they are looking for candidates who aren't just "normal great" like the bulk of TJ students (and many other kids at base schools) but have some special "it" quality (that, as often as not, is harder for Asian kids to demonstrate to the satisfaction of admissions officers)?

You can reconstitute TJ but that doesn't make the college arms race disappear overnight.

You kind of told on yourself here. My point is, back that long ago TJ kids were not that worried about what college they went to. They largely understood that there were tons of colleges that students could go to and have a wonderful experience, and that their eventual outcomes wouldn't be tremendously different depending on where they went. They understood that it was really hard to get into an Ivy League school, and many of them didn't worry about applying. They generally didn't want to sacrifice their wonderful high school experience to try to maximize their chances of winning a game they were likely to lose anyway. And you know what? A lot of them ended up there anyway because they had great experiences to draw from in their essay writing.

And that's the greater point. Families at TJ now view college as an arms race to be won, largely because that's what TJ has been for years and that's the game they've been playing to get there. But that's not the college game - and in spite of TJ counselors trying to get families to understand that, they refuse to and their kids keep losing, and stressing themselves out in the process of losing.

That is completely false.

No, it's not. TJ students maybe started thinking seriously about college in those days around the end of their sophomore year, beginning of their junior year. Before that they were focused on their high school experience. Getting good grades, working hard, but also pursuing passions and things that they genuinely enjoyed without a ton of concern for college. Working paying jobs or traveling in the summers instead of seeking out whatever internships appeared the most prestigious.

Nowadays TJ students and their families are concerned with angling for college admissions outcomes well before they even get to TJ.

Were there students back then who behaved like TJ students do today with respect to college? Sure, of course there were. But now it's ubiquitous.

Over 100 students in the class of 2000 applied to Princeton (over 1/4 of the class!). The major local summer internship programs (SEAP, NIH, etc) were overwhelmingly TJ students. I think you have some rose-colored glasses on.

Guarantee you that number is a LOT higher now. I wouldn't be surprised if it were as high as 250.

You are incorrect. It’s still about 100.

I love how this poster hasn't returned after he/she has been proven wrong.

My fault - I have a job. I stand corrected on this one. Genuinely surprised because the TJ kids talk regularly about all applying to most of the Ivies.

Thank you for acknowledging your mistake. Maybe teenagers tend toward hyperbole, and TJ isn't as different from the 90s as you think it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen the first year. If teachers teach at the same level with the same harsh grading methods, and kids don't have the same level of support at home, it's going to be a mess.

C'mon, you know what is going to happen.

At first, teachers will largely maintain the same curriculum because of inertia and because they have inherent respect for their students.

Then, data will be gathered that it is primarily the unprepared students who cannot handle the work. These students will also turn out to be predominantly URMs. They will be dropping out of TJ to base schools with GPA's that will make them ineligible for competitive college admissions.

Then the curriculum that made TJ what it is will be thrown out, following throwing out the students that made TJ what it is. I give it 2-3 years.

Done.

100% agree. The School Board has ruined TJ for "diversity".

There is no more TJ. It was effectively closed this week.

The cutthroat cheating TJ? Good riddance. Now it can be an excellent STEM school for excellent students.

I really wouldn't call a 3.5 gpa requirement as "excellent". I might have a different opinion if the requirement for the lottery was more stringent- higher gpa (3.8? 3.9?) with specific course prerequisites and majority yes (out of yes/no) recommendation from 3 teachers of student's choosing for example.

I agree that the GPA needs to be higher and there should be a requirement for Honors classes in science and math. I don't have a problem with Algebra being the only math requirement.

Entry into the lottery still requires an application, indicating interest. It also requires meeting specific criteria. The lottery simply increases the chance for kids who come from schools that do not have the same after school options or cultures/opportunities of tutoring or extra STEM classes to be selected. It decreases the need to pad your application to attend. It also will bolster interested kids chances of attending High School with kids from their base school or neighborhood. That should make it a more attractive possibility for kids from schools that are under represented.

I am guessing that they are not going to let lottery spaces go to waste, if there are not 70 kids who meet the requirements from a given region, I would assume that they will have a second lottery for all the applicants who did not get in from across FCPS. I also assume that they will develop a wait list based on the lottery so that if kids who are selected choose not to attend, spots open up for other kids.

I suppose that families who are desperate to increase their odds of attending TJ can move to the school zones where there are fewer kids traditionally applying to TJ in order to increase their chances of attending. That would help improve some of those schools by spreading the uber driven kids from the 2 or 3 schools they are at now and sharing the wealth around the county.

What you are describing here is essentially what they said they will do in the presentation. Best likely example is Prince William. Because of their large population, they have 68 lottery slots. If they don't have 68 kids that qualify for the merit lottery (which I think is probably likely because I think there will be a pretty high bar for entry and I don't think there are a ton of kids interested from PW) then those spots will revert back to the kids at the top of the FCPS Region lotteries.

Additionally, because the barriers for applications are so low, there will be a fair number of families who go ahead and apply but are unsure whether they'll accept an offer - perhaps waiting to hear from the school about concrete changes made to their many cultural issues. There will be a continual rolling admissions process to keep going down the lottery list until I believe the end of the first quarter.

regarding Prince William county, if the bar is the same (3.5 GPA/algebra1) there will be zillions of kids that would qualify. I know for my kids school there are about 50 eighth graders taking geometry with a 4.0, so probably many more with only ALgebra1. My younger DD (8th grade) was not planning on applying because she doesn't want the rigor of TJ (from seeing her brother going to TJ), but we are seriously considering it now since a lottery will probably bring in more students of her "level"(bright but not genius). And for the record, she's asian, and I know a lot more asian families are considering TJ now with the lottery. I really don't think a lottery will solve the URM issues. There might be an increase in Black/Hispanic interest but it will be overshadowed by an even sharper increase in Asian interest. Just my 2 cents. And if PW has 68 spots by lottery, trust me they will be taken because when my older son took the TJ entrance test, there were hundreds of kids there.

Increasing the number of previously uninterested but qualified Asians is good too. As I posted elsewhere, this change will benefit all students including Asians.

The rigor of TJ is not supposed to change with the new admissions procedure.

Even so, once you populate the school with bunch of above average kids, competition will go down and standards will then go down as well. If not, bunch of kids will end up with damaged gpa and many will go back to base HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen the first year. If teachers teach at the same level with the same harsh grading methods, and kids don't have the same level of support at home, it's going to be a mess.

C'mon, you know what is going to happen.

At first, teachers will largely maintain the same curriculum because of inertia and because they have inherent respect for their students.

Then, data will be gathered that it is primarily the unprepared students who cannot handle the work. These students will also turn out to be predominantly URMs. They will be dropping out of TJ to base schools with GPA's that will make them ineligible for competitive college admissions.

Then the curriculum that made TJ what it is will be thrown out, following throwing out the students that made TJ what it is. I give it 2-3 years.

Done.

100% agree. The School Board has ruined TJ for "diversity".

There is no more TJ. It was effectively closed this week.

The cutthroat cheating TJ? Good riddance. Now it can be an excellent STEM school for excellent students.

I really wouldn't call a 3.5 gpa requirement as "excellent". I might have a different opinion if the requirement for the lottery was more stringent- higher gpa (3.8? 3.9?) with specific course prerequisites and majority yes (out of yes/no) recommendation from 3 teachers of student's choosing for example.

I agree that the GPA needs to be higher and there should be a requirement for Honors classes in science and math. I don't have a problem with Algebra being the only math requirement.

Entry into the lottery still requires an application, indicating interest. It also requires meeting specific criteria. The lottery simply increases the chance for kids who come from schools that do not have the same after school options or cultures/opportunities of tutoring or extra STEM classes to be selected. It decreases the need to pad your application to attend. It also will bolster interested kids chances of attending High School with kids from their base school or neighborhood. That should make it a more attractive possibility for kids from schools that are under represented.

I am guessing that they are not going to let lottery spaces go to waste, if there are not 70 kids who meet the requirements from a given region, I would assume that they will have a second lottery for all the applicants who did not get in from across FCPS. I also assume that they will develop a wait list based on the lottery so that if kids who are selected choose not to attend, spots open up for other kids.

I suppose that families who are desperate to increase their odds of attending TJ can move to the school zones where there are fewer kids traditionally applying to TJ in order to increase their chances of attending. That would help improve some of those schools by spreading the uber driven kids from the 2 or 3 schools they are at now and sharing the wealth around the county.

What you are describing here is essentially what they said they will do in the presentation. Best likely example is Prince William. Because of their large population, they have 68 lottery slots. If they don't have 68 kids that qualify for the merit lottery (which I think is probably likely because I think there will be a pretty high bar for entry and I don't think there are a ton of kids interested from PW) then those spots will revert back to the kids at the top of the FCPS Region lotteries.

Additionally, because the barriers for applications are so low, there will be a fair number of families who go ahead and apply but are unsure whether they'll accept an offer - perhaps waiting to hear from the school about concrete changes made to their many cultural issues. There will be a continual rolling admissions process to keep going down the lottery list until I believe the end of the first quarter.

regarding Prince William county, if the bar is the same (3.5 GPA/algebra1) there will be zillions of kids that would qualify. I know for my kids school there are about 50 eighth graders taking geometry with a 4.0, so probably many more with only ALgebra1. My younger DD (8th grade) was not planning on applying because she doesn't want the rigor of TJ (from seeing her brother going to TJ), but we are seriously considering it now since a lottery will probably bring in more students of her "level"(bright but not genius). And for the record, she's asian, and I know a lot more asian families are considering TJ now with the lottery. I really don't think a lottery will solve the URM issues. There might be an increase in Black/Hispanic interest but it will be overshadowed by an even sharper increase in Asian interest. Just my 2 cents. And if PW has 68 spots by lottery, trust me they will be taken because when my older son took the TJ entrance test, there were hundreds of kids there.

That's fine - but I seriously don't believe that kids with a 3.5 GPA who are in Algebra 1, despite the fact that those kids are qualified to apply, will actually be placed in the merit lottery. The Admissions Office/FCPS/SB does not want a situation where they end up admitting a bunch of kids who crash and burn. I think the metrics to actually get placed will be relatively high as a result.

Except for black and Hispanic students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen the first year. If teachers teach at the same level with the same harsh grading methods, and kids don't have the same level of support at home, it's going to be a mess.

C'mon, you know what is going to happen.

At first, teachers will largely maintain the same curriculum because of inertia and because they have inherent respect for their students.

Then, data will be gathered that it is primarily the unprepared students who cannot handle the work. These students will also turn out to be predominantly URMs. They will be dropping out of TJ to base schools with GPA's that will make them ineligible for competitive college admissions.

Then the curriculum that made TJ what it is will be thrown out, following throwing out the students that made TJ what it is. I give it 2-3 years.

Done.

100% agree. The School Board has ruined TJ for "diversity".

There is no more TJ. It was effectively closed this week.

The cutthroat cheating TJ? Good riddance. Now it can be an excellent STEM school for excellent students.

I really wouldn't call a 3.5 gpa requirement as "excellent". I might have a different opinion if the requirement for the lottery was more stringent- higher gpa (3.8? 3.9?) with specific course prerequisites and majority yes (out of yes/no) recommendation from 3 teachers of student's choosing for example.

I agree that the GPA needs to be higher and there should be a requirement for Honors classes in science and math. I don't have a problem with Algebra being the only math requirement.

Entry into the lottery still requires an application, indicating interest. It also requires meeting specific criteria. The lottery simply increases the chance for kids who come from schools that do not have the same after school options or cultures/opportunities of tutoring or extra STEM classes to be selected. It decreases the need to pad your application to attend. It also will bolster interested kids chances of attending High School with kids from their base school or neighborhood. That should make it a more attractive possibility for kids from schools that are under represented.

I am guessing that they are not going to let lottery spaces go to waste, if there are not 70 kids who meet the requirements from a given region, I would assume that they will have a second lottery for all the applicants who did not get in from across FCPS. I also assume that they will develop a wait list based on the lottery so that if kids who are selected choose not to attend, spots open up for other kids.

I suppose that families who are desperate to increase their odds of attending TJ can move to the school zones where there are fewer kids traditionally applying to TJ in order to increase their chances of attending. That would help improve some of those schools by spreading the uber driven kids from the 2 or 3 schools they are at now and sharing the wealth around the county.

What you are describing here is essentially what they said they will do in the presentation. Best likely example is Prince William. Because of their large population, they have 68 lottery slots. If they don't have 68 kids that qualify for the merit lottery (which I think is probably likely because I think there will be a pretty high bar for entry and I don't think there are a ton of kids interested from PW) then those spots will revert back to the kids at the top of the FCPS Region lotteries.

Additionally, because the barriers for applications are so low, there will be a fair number of families who go ahead and apply but are unsure whether they'll accept an offer - perhaps waiting to hear from the school about concrete changes made to their many cultural issues. There will be a continual rolling admissions process to keep going down the lottery list until I believe the end of the first quarter.

regarding Prince William county, if the bar is the same (3.5 GPA/algebra1) there will be zillions of kids that would qualify. I know for my kids school there are about 50 eighth graders taking geometry with a 4.0, so probably many more with only ALgebra1. My younger DD (8th grade) was not planning on applying because she doesn't want the rigor of TJ (from seeing her brother going to TJ), but we are seriously considering it now since a lottery will probably bring in more students of her "level"(bright but not genius). And for the record, she's asian, and I know a lot more asian families are considering TJ now with the lottery. I really don't think a lottery will solve the URM issues. There might be an increase in Black/Hispanic interest but it will be overshadowed by an even sharper increase in Asian interest. Just my 2 cents. And if PW has 68 spots by lottery, trust me they will be taken because when my older son took the TJ entrance test, there were hundreds of kids there.

Increasing the number of previously uninterested but qualified Asians is good too. As I posted elsewhere, this change will benefit all students including Asians.

The rigor of TJ is not supposed to change with the new admissions procedure.

Even so, once you populate the school with bunch of above average kids, competition will go down and standards will then go down as well. If not, bunch of kids will end up with damaged gpa and many will go back to base HS.

Newsflash.,,the school is already populated by a bunch of above average kids. Most of the seniors who apply to UVA are rejected. You are not a genius just because you attend this school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I predict not. I believe the root of the issue is lack of interest, so a lottery, or even an open admissions policy, won't fix that.

What you don't understand is that many highly qualified URMs don't want to attend TJ because they think they won't fit in. DD is a straight A student in AAP at a TJ feeder and she refuses to apply to TJ because she thinks she will not fit into the culture (a culture of cheating, racism, few minorities, few girls, etc...). This is sad considering that she loves STEM and wants to be an engineer.

How do we go about convincing people that these perceptions of the culture are incorrect?

Change the culture. The school board is right.

Whether this new admissions process will work is something that we'll find out in the next few years. Something needed to change though, so it's good that they did this.

+1000. The culture at TJ is so toxic that most of the kids and parents there don't even realize it because it's the only thing they know from their feeder middle schools and prep classes.

You see tons of parents posting on this board that they don't believe that it's so toxic, but when you get current students talking to alums from 10-20 years ago, the elders are horrified at what the school has become. Not because of the racial demographics, but because of the narratives that the kids present about what the school is and how they just accept that "that's TJ, that's what you sign up for".

TJ wasn't always insanely competitive. TJ kids didn't always spend every waking hour worrying about college - but the kids still mostly got into the schools they wanted to get into. TJ kids weren't always obsessed with taking every 8th period and trying to cram in another resume-booster or another study period.

How much of this is due to changes at TJ and how much is due to changes in the volume of college admissions and the top colleges constantly signaling that they are looking for candidates who aren't just "normal great" like the bulk of TJ students (and many other kids at base schools) but have some special "it" quality (that, as often as not, is harder for Asian kids to demonstrate to the satisfaction of admissions officers)?

You can reconstitute TJ but that doesn't make the college arms race disappear overnight.

You kind of told on yourself here. My point is, back that long ago TJ kids were not that worried about what college they went to. They largely understood that there were tons of colleges that students could go to and have a wonderful experience, and that their eventual outcomes wouldn't be tremendously different depending on where they went. They understood that it was really hard to get into an Ivy League school, and many of them didn't worry about applying. They generally didn't want to sacrifice their wonderful high school experience to try to maximize their chances of winning a game they were likely to lose anyway. And you know what? A lot of them ended up there anyway because they had great experiences to draw from in their essay writing.

And that's the greater point. Families at TJ now view college as an arms race to be won, largely because that's what TJ has been for years and that's the game they've been playing to get there. But that's not the college game - and in spite of TJ counselors trying to get families to understand that, they refuse to and their kids keep losing, and stressing themselves out in the process of losing.

That is completely false.

No, it's not. TJ students maybe started thinking seriously about college in those days around the end of their sophomore year, beginning of their junior year. Before that they were focused on their high school experience. Getting good grades, working hard, but also pursuing passions and things that they genuinely enjoyed without a ton of concern for college. Working paying jobs or traveling in the summers instead of seeking out whatever internships appeared the most prestigious.

Nowadays TJ students and their families are concerned with angling for college admissions outcomes well before they even get to TJ.

Were there students back then who behaved like TJ students do today with respect to college? Sure, of course there were. But now it's ubiquitous.

Over 100 students in the class of 2000 applied to Princeton (over 1/4 of the class!). The major local summer internship programs (SEAP, NIH, etc) were overwhelmingly TJ students. I think you have some rose-colored glasses on.

Guarantee you that number is a LOT higher now. I wouldn't be surprised if it were as high as 250.

You are incorrect. It’s still about 100.

I love how this poster hasn't returned after he/she has been proven wrong.

To Poster way at top with girl/stem daughter. I work in an engineering office. I'm not an engineer. All of our engineers went to average public high schools. We have two women
engineers in the office. They are great. Our entire engineering office went to State Colleges for Engineering. We get a lot of business and contracts in our state.

I would not be impressed by the government internships. The students probably got them due to their parents. I'd be more impressed by a student interning at a local engineering office.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen the first year. If teachers teach at the same level with the same harsh grading methods, and kids don't have the same level of support at home, it's going to be a mess.

C'mon, you know what is going to happen.

At first, teachers will largely maintain the same curriculum because of inertia and because they have inherent respect for their students.

Then, data will be gathered that it is primarily the unprepared students who cannot handle the work. These students will also turn out to be predominantly URMs. They will be dropping out of TJ to base schools with GPA's that will make them ineligible for competitive college admissions.

Then the curriculum that made TJ what it is will be thrown out, following throwing out the students that made TJ what it is. I give it 2-3 years.

Done.

100% agree. The School Board has ruined TJ for "diversity".

There is no more TJ. It was effectively closed this week.

The cutthroat cheating TJ? Good riddance. Now it can be an excellent STEM school for excellent students.

I really wouldn't call a 3.5 gpa requirement as "excellent". I might have a different opinion if the requirement for the lottery was more stringent- higher gpa (3.8? 3.9?) with specific course prerequisites and majority yes (out of yes/no) recommendation from 3 teachers of student's choosing for example.

I agree that the GPA needs to be higher and there should be a requirement for Honors classes in science and math. I don't have a problem with Algebra being the only math requirement.

Entry into the lottery still requires an application, indicating interest. It also requires meeting specific criteria. The lottery simply increases the chance for kids who come from schools that do not have the same after school options or cultures/opportunities of tutoring or extra STEM classes to be selected. It decreases the need to pad your application to attend. It also will bolster interested kids chances of attending High School with kids from their base school or neighborhood. That should make it a more attractive possibility for kids from schools that are under represented.

I am guessing that they are not going to let lottery spaces go to waste, if there are not 70 kids who meet the requirements from a given region, I would assume that they will have a second lottery for all the applicants who did not get in from across FCPS. I also assume that they will develop a wait list based on the lottery so that if kids who are selected choose not to attend, spots open up for other kids.

I suppose that families who are desperate to increase their odds of attending TJ can move to the school zones where there are fewer kids traditionally applying to TJ in order to increase their chances of attending. That would help improve some of those schools by spreading the uber driven kids from the 2 or 3 schools they are at now and sharing the wealth around the county.

What you are describing here is essentially what they said they will do in the presentation. Best likely example is Prince William. Because of their large population, they have 68 lottery slots. If they don't have 68 kids that qualify for the merit lottery (which I think is probably likely because I think there will be a pretty high bar for entry and I don't think there are a ton of kids interested from PW) then those spots will revert back to the kids at the top of the FCPS Region lotteries.

Additionally, because the barriers for applications are so low, there will be a fair number of families who go ahead and apply but are unsure whether they'll accept an offer - perhaps waiting to hear from the school about concrete changes made to their many cultural issues. There will be a continual rolling admissions process to keep going down the lottery list until I believe the end of the first quarter.

regarding Prince William county, if the bar is the same (3.5 GPA/algebra1) there will be zillions of kids that would qualify. I know for my kids school there are about 50 eighth graders taking geometry with a 4.0, so probably many more with only ALgebra1. My younger DD (8th grade) was not planning on applying because she doesn't want the rigor of TJ (from seeing her brother going to TJ), but we are seriously considering it now since a lottery will probably bring in more students of her "level"(bright but not genius). And for the record, she's asian, and I know a lot more asian families are considering TJ now with the lottery. I really don't think a lottery will solve the URM issues. There might be an increase in Black/Hispanic interest but it will be overshadowed by an even sharper increase in Asian interest. Just my 2 cents. And if PW has 68 spots by lottery, trust me they will be taken because when my older son took the TJ entrance test, there were hundreds of kids there.

Increasing the number of previously uninterested but qualified Asians is good too. As I posted elsewhere, this change will benefit all students including Asians.

The rigor of TJ is not supposed to change with the new admissions procedure.

Even so, once you populate the school with bunch of above average kids, competition will go down and standards will then go down as well. If not, bunch of kids will end up with damaged gpa and many will go back to base HS.

Newsflash.,,the school is already populated by a bunch of above average kids. Most of the seniors who apply to UVA are rejected. You are not a genius just because you attend this school.

Except those above average kids make up about 10-15 percent now and that will go up to more than 80% with the new system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen the first year. If teachers teach at the same level with the same harsh grading methods, and kids don't have the same level of support at home, it's going to be a mess.

C'mon, you know what is going to happen.

At first, teachers will largely maintain the same curriculum because of inertia and because they have inherent respect for their students.

Then, data will be gathered that it is primarily the unprepared students who cannot handle the work. These students will also turn out to be predominantly URMs. They will be dropping out of TJ to base schools with GPA's that will make them ineligible for competitive college admissions.

Then the curriculum that made TJ what it is will be thrown out, following throwing out the students that made TJ what it is. I give it 2-3 years.

Done.

100% agree. The School Board has ruined TJ for "diversity".

There is no more TJ. It was effectively closed this week.

The cutthroat cheating TJ? Good riddance. Now it can be an excellent STEM school for excellent students.

I really wouldn't call a 3.5 gpa requirement as "excellent". I might have a different opinion if the requirement for the lottery was more stringent- higher gpa (3.8? 3.9?) with specific course prerequisites and majority yes (out of yes/no) recommendation from 3 teachers of student's choosing for example.

I agree that the GPA needs to be higher and there should be a requirement for Honors classes in science and math. I don't have a problem with Algebra being the only math requirement.

Entry into the lottery still requires an application, indicating interest. It also requires meeting specific criteria. The lottery simply increases the chance for kids who come from schools that do not have the same after school options or cultures/opportunities of tutoring or extra STEM classes to be selected. It decreases the need to pad your application to attend. It also will bolster interested kids chances of attending High School with kids from their base school or neighborhood. That should make it a more attractive possibility for kids from schools that are under represented.

I am guessing that they are not going to let lottery spaces go to waste, if there are not 70 kids who meet the requirements from a given region, I would assume that they will have a second lottery for all the applicants who did not get in from across FCPS. I also assume that they will develop a wait list based on the lottery so that if kids who are selected choose not to attend, spots open up for other kids.

I suppose that families who are desperate to increase their odds of attending TJ can move to the school zones where there are fewer kids traditionally applying to TJ in order to increase their chances of attending. That would help improve some of those schools by spreading the uber driven kids from the 2 or 3 schools they are at now and sharing the wealth around the county.

What you are describing here is essentially what they said they will do in the presentation. Best likely example is Prince William. Because of their large population, they have 68 lottery slots. If they don't have 68 kids that qualify for the merit lottery (which I think is probably likely because I think there will be a pretty high bar for entry and I don't think there are a ton of kids interested from PW) then those spots will revert back to the kids at the top of the FCPS Region lotteries.

Additionally, because the barriers for applications are so low, there will be a fair number of families who go ahead and apply but are unsure whether they'll accept an offer - perhaps waiting to hear from the school about concrete changes made to their many cultural issues. There will be a continual rolling admissions process to keep going down the lottery list until I believe the end of the first quarter.

regarding Prince William county, if the bar is the same (3.5 GPA/algebra1) there will be zillions of kids that would qualify. I know for my kids school there are about 50 eighth graders taking geometry with a 4.0, so probably many more with only ALgebra1. My younger DD (8th grade) was not planning on applying because she doesn't want the rigor of TJ (from seeing her brother going to TJ), but we are seriously considering it now since a lottery will probably bring in more students of her "level"(bright but not genius). And for the record, she's asian, and I know a lot more asian families are considering TJ now with the lottery. I really don't think a lottery will solve the URM issues. There might be an increase in Black/Hispanic interest but it will be overshadowed by an even sharper increase in Asian interest. Just my 2 cents. And if PW has 68 spots by lottery, trust me they will be taken because when my older son took the TJ entrance test, there were hundreds of kids there.

Increasing the number of previously uninterested but qualified Asians is good too. As I posted elsewhere, this change will benefit all students including Asians.

The rigor of TJ is not supposed to change with the new admissions procedure.

Even so, once you populate the school with bunch of above average kids, competition will go down and standards will then go down as well. If not, bunch of kids will end up with damaged gpa and many will go back to base HS.

Newsflash.,,the school is already populated by a bunch of above average kids. Most of the seniors who apply to UVA are rejected. You are not a genius just because you attend this school.

News flash. TJ kids are not interested in UVA and applications to that school has plummeted in the past several years. UVA has terrible STEM departments.

[Anonymous]

The Princeton grad that I knew could not get a job and was tutoring at one of the test prep places.

I believe he was going to go for an MBA at a state college.

This was about 8 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen the first year. If teachers teach at the same level with the same harsh grading methods, and kids don't have the same level of support at home, it's going to be a mess.

C'mon, you know what is going to happen.

At first, teachers will largely maintain the same curriculum because of inertia and because they have inherent respect for their students.

Then, data will be gathered that it is primarily the unprepared students who cannot handle the work. These students will also turn out to be predominantly URMs. They will be dropping out of TJ to base schools with GPA's that will make them ineligible for competitive college admissions.

Then the curriculum that made TJ what it is will be thrown out, following throwing out the students that made TJ what it is. I give it 2-3 years.

Done.

100% agree. The School Board has ruined TJ for "diversity".

There is no more TJ. It was effectively closed this week.

The cutthroat cheating TJ? Good riddance. Now it can be an excellent STEM school for excellent students.

I really wouldn't call a 3.5 gpa requirement as "excellent". I might have a different opinion if the requirement for the lottery was more stringent- higher gpa (3.8? 3.9?) with specific course prerequisites and majority yes (out of yes/no) recommendation from 3 teachers of student's choosing for example.

I agree that the GPA needs to be higher and there should be a requirement for Honors classes in science and math. I don't have a problem with Algebra being the only math requirement.

Entry into the lottery still requires an application, indicating interest. It also requires meeting specific criteria. The lottery simply increases the chance for kids who come from schools that do not have the same after school options or cultures/opportunities of tutoring or extra STEM classes to be selected. It decreases the need to pad your application to attend. It also will bolster interested kids chances of attending High School with kids from their base school or neighborhood. That should make it a more attractive possibility for kids from schools that are under represented.

I am guessing that they are not going to let lottery spaces go to waste, if there are not 70 kids who meet the requirements from a given region, I would assume that they will have a second lottery for all the applicants who did not get in from across FCPS. I also assume that they will develop a wait list based on the lottery so that if kids who are selected choose not to attend, spots open up for other kids.

I suppose that families who are desperate to increase their odds of attending TJ can move to the school zones where there are fewer kids traditionally applying to TJ in order to increase their chances of attending. That would help improve some of those schools by spreading the uber driven kids from the 2 or 3 schools they are at now and sharing the wealth around the county.

What you are describing here is essentially what they said they will do in the presentation. Best likely example is Prince William. Because of their large population, they have 68 lottery slots. If they don't have 68 kids that qualify for the merit lottery (which I think is probably likely because I think there will be a pretty high bar for entry and I don't think there are a ton of kids interested from PW) then those spots will revert back to the kids at the top of the FCPS Region lotteries.

Additionally, because the barriers for applications are so low, there will be a fair number of families who go ahead and apply but are unsure whether they'll accept an offer - perhaps waiting to hear from the school about concrete changes made to their many cultural issues. There will be a continual rolling admissions process to keep going down the lottery list until I believe the end of the first quarter.

regarding Prince William county, if the bar is the same (3.5 GPA/algebra1) there will be zillions of kids that would qualify. I know for my kids school there are about 50 eighth graders taking geometry with a 4.0, so probably many more with only ALgebra1. My younger DD (8th grade) was not planning on applying because she doesn't want the rigor of TJ (from seeing her brother going to TJ), but we are seriously considering it now since a lottery will probably bring in more students of her "level"(bright but not genius). And for the record, she's asian, and I know a lot more asian families are considering TJ now with the lottery. I really don't think a lottery will solve the URM issues. There might be an increase in Black/Hispanic interest but it will be overshadowed by an even sharper increase in Asian interest. Just my 2 cents. And if PW has 68 spots by lottery, trust me they will be taken because when my older son took the TJ entrance test, there were hundreds of kids there.

Increasing the number of previously uninterested but qualified Asians is good too. As I posted elsewhere, this change will benefit all students including Asians.

The rigor of TJ is not supposed to change with the new admissions procedure.

Even so, once you populate the school with bunch of above average kids, competition will go down and standards will then go down as well. If not, bunch of kids will end up with damaged gpa and many will go back to base HS.

Newsflash.,,the school is already populated by a bunch of above average kids. Most of the seniors who apply to UVA are rejected. You are not a genius just because you attend this school.

Except those above average kids make up about 10-15 percent now and that will go up to more than 80% with the new system.

Sprinkle the prepper kids and the good test takers to attend thir local high schools around the county to let them bring up the scores at the average high schools.

[Anonymous]

No.

It will help to increase White enrollment.

Maybe the energy should go towards not getting more URM into the program but improving the education in ES and MS so that URMs can be made competitive to get into the program if they want.

[Anonymous]

No, because they didn't attempt do to anything to improve URM enrollment. They never asked black or latin families what they wanted, why they didn't apply, or what the school could offer to make them want to go.

[Anonymous]

Involved and educated parents. You can bet that most of the current TJ students have very educated mothers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder what will happen the first year. If teachers teach at the same level with the same harsh grading methods, and kids don't have the same level of support at home, it's going to be a mess.

C'mon, you know what is going to happen.

At first, teachers will largely maintain the same curriculum because of inertia and because they have inherent respect for their students.

Then, data will be gathered that it is primarily the unprepared students who cannot handle the work. These students will also turn out to be predominantly URMs. They will be dropping out of TJ to base schools with GPA's that will make them ineligible for competitive college admissions.

Then the curriculum that made TJ what it is will be thrown out, following throwing out the students that made TJ what it is. I give it 2-3 years.

Done.

100% agree. The School Board has ruined TJ for "diversity".

There is no more TJ. It was effectively closed this week.

The cutthroat cheating TJ? Good riddance. Now it can be an excellent STEM school for excellent students.

I really wouldn't call a 3.5 gpa requirement as "excellent". I might have a different opinion if the requirement for the lottery was more stringent- higher gpa (3.8? 3.9?) with specific course prerequisites and majority yes (out of yes/no) recommendation from 3 teachers of student's choosing for example.

I agree that the GPA needs to be higher and there should be a requirement for Honors classes in science and math. I don't have a problem with Algebra being the only math requirement.

Entry into the lottery still requires an application, indicating interest. It also requires meeting specific criteria. The lottery simply increases the chance for kids who come from schools that do not have the same after school options or cultures/opportunities of tutoring or extra STEM classes to be selected. It decreases the need to pad your application to attend. It also will bolster interested kids chances of attending High School with kids from their base school or neighborhood. That should make it a more attractive possibility for kids from schools that are under represented.

I am guessing that they are not going to let lottery spaces go to waste, if there are not 70 kids who meet the requirements from a given region, I would assume that they will have a second lottery for all the applicants who did not get in from across FCPS. I also assume that they will develop a wait list based on the lottery so that if kids who are selected choose not to attend, spots open up for other kids.

I suppose that families who are desperate to increase their odds of attending TJ can move to the school zones where there are fewer kids traditionally applying to TJ in order to increase their chances of attending. That would help improve some of those schools by spreading the uber driven kids from the 2 or 3 schools they are at now and sharing the wealth around the county.

What you are describing here is essentially what they said they will do in the presentation. Best likely example is Prince William. Because of their large population, they have 68 lottery slots. If they don't have 68 kids that qualify for the merit lottery (which I think is probably likely because I think there will be a pretty high bar for entry and I don't think there are a ton of kids interested from PW) then those spots will revert back to the kids at the top of the FCPS Region lotteries.

Additionally, because the barriers for applications are so low, there will be a fair number of families who go ahead and apply but are unsure whether they'll accept an offer - perhaps waiting to hear from the school about concrete changes made to their many cultural issues. There will be a continual rolling admissions process to keep going down the lottery list until I believe the end of the first quarter.

regarding Prince William county, if the bar is the same (3.5 GPA/algebra1) there will be zillions of kids that would qualify. I know for my kids school there are about 50 eighth graders taking geometry with a 4.0, so probably many more with only ALgebra1. My younger DD (8th grade) was not planning on applying because she doesn't want the rigor of TJ (from seeing her brother going to TJ), but we are seriously considering it now since a lottery will probably bring in more students of her "level"(bright but not genius). And for the record, she's asian, and I know a lot more asian families are considering TJ now with the lottery. I really don't think a lottery will solve the URM issues. There might be an increase in Black/Hispanic interest but it will be overshadowed by an even sharper increase in Asian interest. Just my 2 cents. And if PW has 68 spots by lottery, trust me they will be taken because when my older son took the TJ entrance test, there were hundreds of kids there.

Increasing the number of previously uninterested but qualified Asians is good too. As I posted elsewhere, this change will benefit all students including Asians.

The rigor of TJ is not supposed to change with the new admissions procedure.

Even so, once you populate the school with bunch of above average kids, competition will go down and standards will then go down as well. If not, bunch of kids will end up with damaged gpa and many will go back to base HS.

Newsflash.,,the school is already populated by a bunch of above average kids. Most of the seniors who apply to UVA are rejected. You are not a genius just because you attend this school.

News flash. TJ kids are not interested in UVA and applications to that school has plummeted in the past several years. UVA has terrible STEM departments.

Fact: If you are in the lower half of TJ you are very likely to be rejected from UVA. Your amazing arrogance does not change that fact.