Is the refernece "he/she looks very Jewish" benign or an insult?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Funny story: I have been asked many, MANY times in my life if I am Jewish. I have pale skin and thick dark hair, which is wavy/curly if not straightened. I once went back and forth with someone who insisted I looked Jewish and that I must be mistaken. Life long Catholic from many generations of Catholics, Irish mom, middle eastern dad. Recently had to genetic testing during a pregnancy, which turned up some mutations specific to Ashkenazi Jewish people. Guess they were right.

Anyway, I don't identify as Jewish so I can't answer whether or not it would be offensive to someone who is Jewish - I have never been offended when asked.

Then you were just dumb for your entire life and wrapped up in what you thought whiteness was. Bc a middle eastern dad means other and not generally white european looking.

Exactly. Also, you should know that you're Jewish, whether you choose to identify as Jewish or not.

To the PP who used the word "dumb," you clearly have reading comprehension deficits because I never used the term white in my post. You assumed that I was "wrapped up in what [I] thought whiteness was," which implies that I favor one side of my heritage over another. Something you wish to have read, but didn't.

And to the second individual who echoed that I am dumb, I deliberately chose the word "identify" because I now recognize that its in my bloodline, but I was not raised in the Jewish faith. Wouldn't it be a little disingenuous to begin telling people I am Jewish, full stop?

I'm the second PP. No it wouldn't. It's accurate to say you have Jewish heritage, but don't practice the religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is unacceptable. Period.

Are you Jewish? If not, it’s not for you to say.

If so, recognize not everyone gets offended by it, assuming it’s done innocently.

I am Jewish and have expressed my opinion. I don’t care if it doesn’t offend you. It offends me. All Jews don’t look alike, feel alike, or have to express the same opinions. We also are not collectively responsible for the actions of all Jews. Some Jews have red hair and freckles. Some have blond hair and blue eyes. Some have button noses, and some have prominent noses. Some Jews are brown and some are fair. There is no one Jewish look. To say that a person looks Jewish feeds into anti-Semitic stereotypes, in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. This is MY truth.

Alright, fine. But do you accept the reality that 10-11 million of the 16 million Jews are Ashkenazi, which is a distinct genetic group that has physical similarities? Or are you just pretending that doesn't exist.

I'm a DP, I posted above also saying (as a Jew) that I think it's offensive, and I agree with the PP. I accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, but I don't see why that makes a difference.

If you accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, and thus have related genes, how do you deny the objective reality that many have physical characteristics in common, just as Swedes or Norwegians or Irish or Poles or Kenyans do? Is it offensive to observe -- in a neutral, non-derogatory way -- that there are a ton of super blond kids in Sweden even though not all Swedish kids are blond? Or that different African tribes may have different facial features? Or that Japanese say they can tell at a glance who is Japanese and who is of a different Asian ethnicity despite having similar hair and eye color because of a distinctive "look" even though not everyone looks that way? Yes, some Jews have red hair and freckles, and some have blond hair and blue eyes, etc, but overall in a given population of Ashkenazi Jews, there is a much higher percentage of dark and wavy or curly hair than red or blond hair. It's not a value judgement, it's an observation.

It's only when you impute negative stereotypes to observed characteristics that it becomes offensive.

Yes, I fully accept what you are saying about Ashkenazis (and I'm one too), and that many of us have physical characteristics in common. What I'm saying though is that despite this, because of the history of antisemitism and persecution, and because of the way Jewish (Ashkenazi) characteristics crop up in antisemitic tropes (the long crooked noses, etc) saying that someone looks Jewish is not a benign statement and should be avoided. I'm the European PP above and perhaps my perspective is different to yours because I didn't grow up in a large Jewish community in e.g. New York, I grew up somewhere where a statement about Jewish looks would usually mean something negative. That is why, in my opinion, it is different to saying that someone looks Swedish because they have blonde hair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not Jewish. I am black. I say that to say I can't speak for exactly how a Jewish person would feel about the statement. I can only speak for how I feel when someone says something similar to me.

I would ask the speaker "What do you mean by that?" and see what comes next. My guess is that it won't be something good.

When I've encountered similar statements, it is usually meant to be derogatory. If your Jewish friend has confided in you that he/she finds it insulting, you should be the brave and bold white person who is willing to take a position that will bring you discomfort for the good of all. The weight of addressing discriminatory/hurtful statements always falls on the person being singled out and they are left having to navigate addressing the disrespect, their hurt feelings and self esteem and then having to defend against a typical white person who will rudely push back if they are called out on their bigoted behavior. It will be all about that person's feelings on being called a bigot instead of the person they actually offended.

Please, stand up for your Jewish friend and call the other person out on their unacceptable comments. Right now, you can hide and ignore the rude comments because they don't affect you. By the way, if you've ever wondered what white privilege is and if you have it, this is one of those situations.

Are you saying black people can't be Jews? WTF? Have you ever heard about the rescrue of Ethiopian Jews?

ALthough I guess this gets to the point about what does "looking Jewish" mean? So, yes, of course it's offensive in any context, since it presumably refers to stereotypical physical characteristics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is unacceptable. Period.

Are you Jewish? If not, it’s not for you to say.

If so, recognize not everyone gets offended by it, assuming it’s done innocently.

I am Jewish and have expressed my opinion. I don’t care if it doesn’t offend you. It offends me. All Jews don’t look alike, feel alike, or have to express the same opinions. We also are not collectively responsible for the actions of all Jews. Some Jews have red hair and freckles. Some have blond hair and blue eyes. Some have button noses, and some have prominent noses. Some Jews are brown and some are fair. There is no one Jewish look. To say that a person looks Jewish feeds into anti-Semitic stereotypes, in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. This is MY truth.

Alright, fine. But do you accept the reality that 10-11 million of the 16 million Jews are Ashkenazi, which is a distinct genetic group that has physical similarities? Or are you just pretending that doesn't exist.

I'm a DP, I posted above also saying (as a Jew) that I think it's offensive, and I agree with the PP. I accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, but I don't see why that makes a difference.

If you accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, and thus have related genes, how do you deny the objective reality that many have physical characteristics in common, just as Swedes or Norwegians or Irish or Poles or Kenyans do? Is it offensive to observe -- in a neutral, non-derogatory way -- that there are a ton of super blond kids in Sweden even though not all Swedish kids are blond? Or that different African tribes may have different facial features? Or that Japanese say they can tell at a glance who is Japanese and who is of a different Asian ethnicity despite having similar hair and eye color because of a distinctive "look" even though not everyone looks that way? Yes, some Jews have red hair and freckles, and some have blond hair and blue eyes, etc, but overall in a given population of Ashkenazi Jews, there is a much higher percentage of dark and wavy or curly hair than red or blond hair. It's not a value judgement, it's an observation.

It's only when you impute negative stereotypes to observed characteristics that it becomes offensive.

Yes, I fully accept what you are saying about Ashkenazis (and I'm one too), and that many of us have physical characteristics in common. What I'm saying though is that despite this, because of the history of antisemitism and persecution, and because of the way Jewish (Ashkenazi) characteristics crop up in antisemitic tropes (the long crooked noses, etc) saying that someone looks Jewish is not a benign statement and should be avoided. I'm the European PP above and perhaps my perspective is different to yours because I didn't grow up in a large Jewish community in e.g. New York, I grew up somewhere where a statement about Jewish looks would usually mean something negative. That is why, in my opinion, it is different to saying that someone looks Swedish because they have blonde hair.

No one is denying that it's often a negative statement. You, however, seemed to be implying that you weren't willing to accept that there are ANY physical similarities among ANY Jews. That's just false.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not Jewish. I am black. I say that to say I can't speak for exactly how a Jewish person would feel about the statement. I can only speak for how I feel when someone says something similar to me.

I would ask the speaker "What do you mean by that?" and see what comes next. My guess is that it won't be something good.

When I've encountered similar statements, it is usually meant to be derogatory. If your Jewish friend has confided in you that he/she finds it insulting, you should be the brave and bold white person who is willing to take a position that will bring you discomfort for the good of all. The weight of addressing discriminatory/hurtful statements always falls on the person being singled out and they are left having to navigate addressing the disrespect, their hurt feelings and self esteem and then having to defend against a typical white person who will rudely push back if they are called out on their bigoted behavior. It will be all about that person's feelings on being called a bigot instead of the person they actually offended.

Please, stand up for your Jewish friend and call the other person out on their unacceptable comments. Right now, you can hide and ignore the rude comments because they don't affect you. By the way, if you've ever wondered what white privilege is and if you have it, this is one of those situations.

Are you saying black people can't be Jews? WTF? Have you ever heard about the rescrue of Ethiopian Jews?

ALthough I guess this gets to the point about what does "looking Jewish" mean? So, yes, of course it's offensive in any context, since it presumably refers to stereotypical physical characteristics.

Oh come on. That wasn’t the PP’s point and you know it. She didn’t say, imply, infer, whatever what you have suggested. Don’t turn this into a twisted conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is unacceptable. Period.

Are you Jewish? If not, it’s not for you to say.

If so, recognize not everyone gets offended by it, assuming it’s done innocently.

I am Jewish and have expressed my opinion. I don’t care if it doesn’t offend you. It offends me. All Jews don’t look alike, feel alike, or have to express the same opinions. We also are not collectively responsible for the actions of all Jews. Some Jews have red hair and freckles. Some have blond hair and blue eyes. Some have button noses, and some have prominent noses. Some Jews are brown and some are fair. There is no one Jewish look. To say that a person looks Jewish feeds into anti-Semitic stereotypes, in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. This is MY truth.

Alright, fine. But do you accept the reality that 10-11 million of the 16 million Jews are Ashkenazi, which is a distinct genetic group that has physical similarities? Or are you just pretending that doesn't exist.

I'm a DP, I posted above also saying (as a Jew) that I think it's offensive, and I agree with the PP. I accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, but I don't see why that makes a difference.

If you accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, and thus have related genes, how do you deny the objective reality that many have physical characteristics in common, just as Swedes or Norwegians or Irish or Poles or Kenyans do? Is it offensive to observe -- in a neutral, non-derogatory way -- that there are a ton of super blond kids in Sweden even though not all Swedish kids are blond? Or that different African tribes may have different facial features? Or that Japanese say they can tell at a glance who is Japanese and who is of a different Asian ethnicity despite having similar hair and eye color because of a distinctive "look" even though not everyone looks that way? Yes, some Jews have red hair and freckles, and some have blond hair and blue eyes, etc, but overall in a given population of Ashkenazi Jews, there is a much higher percentage of dark and wavy or curly hair than red or blond hair. It's not a value judgement, it's an observation.

It's only when you impute negative stereotypes to observed characteristics that it becomes offensive.

Yes, I fully accept what you are saying about Ashkenazis (and I'm one too), and that many of us have physical characteristics in common. What I'm saying though is that despite this, because of the history of antisemitism and persecution, and because of the way Jewish (Ashkenazi) characteristics crop up in antisemitic tropes (the long crooked noses, etc) saying that someone looks Jewish is not a benign statement and should be avoided. I'm the European PP above and perhaps my perspective is different to yours because I didn't grow up in a large Jewish community in e.g. New York, I grew up somewhere where a statement about Jewish looks would usually mean something negative. That is why, in my opinion, it is different to saying that someone looks Swedish because they have blonde hair.

No one is denying that it's often a negative statement. You, however, seemed to be implying that you weren't willing to accept that there are ANY physical similarities among ANY Jews. That's just false.

I disagree with you. Ashkenazi Jews look like all other Europeans. There is no distinct Jewish look. Sorry, but no. Can’t acknowledge that. It simply is false and spreads tropes. There are also Jews from Arab lands that look Arab. What you are saying is so contrived.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is unacceptable. Period.

Are you Jewish? If not, it’s not for you to say.

If so, recognize not everyone gets offended by it, assuming it’s done innocently.

I am Jewish and have expressed my opinion. I don’t care if it doesn’t offend you. It offends me. All Jews don’t look alike, feel alike, or have to express the same opinions. We also are not collectively responsible for the actions of all Jews. Some Jews have red hair and freckles. Some have blond hair and blue eyes. Some have button noses, and some have prominent noses. Some Jews are brown and some are fair. There is no one Jewish look. To say that a person looks Jewish feeds into anti-Semitic stereotypes, in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. This is MY truth.

Alright, fine. But do you accept the reality that 10-11 million of the 16 million Jews are Ashkenazi, which is a distinct genetic group that has physical similarities? Or are you just pretending that doesn't exist.

I'm a DP, I posted above also saying (as a Jew) that I think it's offensive, and I agree with the PP. I accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, but I don't see why that makes a difference.

If you accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, and thus have related genes, how do you deny the objective reality that many have physical characteristics in common, just as Swedes or Norwegians or Irish or Poles or Kenyans do? Is it offensive to observe -- in a neutral, non-derogatory way -- that there are a ton of super blond kids in Sweden even though not all Swedish kids are blond? Or that different African tribes may have different facial features? Or that Japanese say they can tell at a glance who is Japanese and who is of a different Asian ethnicity despite having similar hair and eye color because of a distinctive "look" even though not everyone looks that way? Yes, some Jews have red hair and freckles, and some have blond hair and blue eyes, etc, but overall in a given population of Ashkenazi Jews, there is a much higher percentage of dark and wavy or curly hair than red or blond hair. It's not a value judgement, it's an observation.

It's only when you impute negative stereotypes to observed characteristics that it becomes offensive.

Yes, I fully accept what you are saying about Ashkenazis (and I'm one too), and that many of us have physical characteristics in common. What I'm saying though is that despite this, because of the history of antisemitism and persecution, and because of the way Jewish (Ashkenazi) characteristics crop up in antisemitic tropes (the long crooked noses, etc) saying that someone looks Jewish is not a benign statement and should be avoided. I'm the European PP above and perhaps my perspective is different to yours because I didn't grow up in a large Jewish community in e.g. New York, I grew up somewhere where a statement about Jewish looks would usually mean something negative. That is why, in my opinion, it is different to saying that someone looks Swedish because they have blonde hair.

That's fair and I agree that it often is a negative statement, in context. But there are some posters who argue that "looking Jewish" doesn't exist or shouldn't be acknowledged because of the history of anti-Semitism and that's just not accurate.

I also didn't grow up in a large Jewish community -- and I went to a Christian k-12 school, in fact -- so I am certainly wary of hearing from a non-Jew that I do or do not look Jewish. But from other Jews, it's usually just a comment or a guessing game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is unacceptable. Period.

Are you Jewish? If not, it’s not for you to say.

If so, recognize not everyone gets offended by it, assuming it’s done innocently.

I am Jewish and have expressed my opinion. I don’t care if it doesn’t offend you. It offends me. All Jews don’t look alike, feel alike, or have to express the same opinions. We also are not collectively responsible for the actions of all Jews. Some Jews have red hair and freckles. Some have blond hair and blue eyes. Some have button noses, and some have prominent noses. Some Jews are brown and some are fair. There is no one Jewish look. To say that a person looks Jewish feeds into anti-Semitic stereotypes, in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. This is MY truth.

Alright, fine. But do you accept the reality that 10-11 million of the 16 million Jews are Ashkenazi, which is a distinct genetic group that has physical similarities? Or are you just pretending that doesn't exist.

I'm a DP, I posted above also saying (as a Jew) that I think it's offensive, and I agree with the PP. I accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, but I don't see why that makes a difference.

If you accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, and thus have related genes, how do you deny the objective reality that many have physical characteristics in common, just as Swedes or Norwegians or Irish or Poles or Kenyans do? Is it offensive to observe -- in a neutral, non-derogatory way -- that there are a ton of super blond kids in Sweden even though not all Swedish kids are blond? Or that different African tribes may have different facial features? Or that Japanese say they can tell at a glance who is Japanese and who is of a different Asian ethnicity despite having similar hair and eye color because of a distinctive "look" even though not everyone looks that way? Yes, some Jews have red hair and freckles, and some have blond hair and blue eyes, etc, but overall in a given population of Ashkenazi Jews, there is a much higher percentage of dark and wavy or curly hair than red or blond hair. It's not a value judgement, it's an observation.

It's only when you impute negative stereotypes to observed characteristics that it becomes offensive.

Yes, I fully accept what you are saying about Ashkenazis (and I'm one too), and that many of us have physical characteristics in common. What I'm saying though is that despite this, because of the history of antisemitism and persecution, and because of the way Jewish (Ashkenazi) characteristics crop up in antisemitic tropes (the long crooked noses, etc) saying that someone looks Jewish is not a benign statement and should be avoided. I'm the European PP above and perhaps my perspective is different to yours because I didn't grow up in a large Jewish community in e.g. New York, I grew up somewhere where a statement about Jewish looks would usually mean something negative. That is why, in my opinion, it is different to saying that someone looks Swedish because they have blonde hair.

No one is denying that it's often a negative statement. You, however, seemed to be implying that you weren't willing to accept that there are ANY physical similarities among ANY Jews. That's just false.

I disagree with you. Ashkenazi Jews look like all other Europeans. There is no distinct Jewish look. Sorry, but no. Can’t acknowledge that. It simply is false and spreads tropes. There are also Jews from Arab lands that look Arab. What you are saying is so contrived.

No. You're just wrong.

Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct genetic group, different from other genetic groups in Europe, the Middle East, or anywhere else. There's a thing called the Ashkenazi Jew genetic panel that you take when you're pregnant to test for genetic abnormalities. It's not the "european" panel.

Read about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is unacceptable. Period.

Are you Jewish? If not, it’s not for you to say.

If so, recognize not everyone gets offended by it, assuming it’s done innocently.

I am Jewish and have expressed my opinion. I don’t care if it doesn’t offend you. It offends me. All Jews don’t look alike, feel alike, or have to express the same opinions. We also are not collectively responsible for the actions of all Jews. Some Jews have red hair and freckles. Some have blond hair and blue eyes. Some have button noses, and some have prominent noses. Some Jews are brown and some are fair. There is no one Jewish look. To say that a person looks Jewish feeds into anti-Semitic stereotypes, in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. This is MY truth.

Alright, fine. But do you accept the reality that 10-11 million of the 16 million Jews are Ashkenazi, which is a distinct genetic group that has physical similarities? Or are you just pretending that doesn't exist.

I'm a DP, I posted above also saying (as a Jew) that I think it's offensive, and I agree with the PP. I accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, but I don't see why that makes a difference.

If you accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, and thus have related genes, how do you deny the objective reality that many have physical characteristics in common, just as Swedes or Norwegians or Irish or Poles or Kenyans do? Is it offensive to observe -- in a neutral, non-derogatory way -- that there are a ton of super blond kids in Sweden even though not all Swedish kids are blond? Or that different African tribes may have different facial features? Or that Japanese say they can tell at a glance who is Japanese and who is of a different Asian ethnicity despite having similar hair and eye color because of a distinctive "look" even though not everyone looks that way? Yes, some Jews have red hair and freckles, and some have blond hair and blue eyes, etc, but overall in a given population of Ashkenazi Jews, there is a much higher percentage of dark and wavy or curly hair than red or blond hair. It's not a value judgement, it's an observation.

It's only when you impute negative stereotypes to observed characteristics that it becomes offensive.

Yes, I fully accept what you are saying about Ashkenazis (and I'm one too), and that many of us have physical characteristics in common. What I'm saying though is that despite this, because of the history of antisemitism and persecution, and because of the way Jewish (Ashkenazi) characteristics crop up in antisemitic tropes (the long crooked noses, etc) saying that someone looks Jewish is not a benign statement and should be avoided. I'm the European PP above and perhaps my perspective is different to yours because I didn't grow up in a large Jewish community in e.g. New York, I grew up somewhere where a statement about Jewish looks would usually mean something negative. That is why, in my opinion, it is different to saying that someone looks Swedish because they have blonde hair.

No one is denying that it's often a negative statement. You, however, seemed to be implying that you weren't willing to accept that there are ANY physical similarities among ANY Jews. That's just false.

I disagree with you. Ashkenazi Jews look like all other Europeans. There is no distinct Jewish look. Sorry, but no. Can’t acknowledge that. It simply is false and spreads tropes. There are also Jews from Arab lands that look Arab. What you are saying is so contrived.

No. You're just wrong.

Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct genetic group, different from other genetic groups in Europe, the Middle East, or anywhere else. There's a thing called the Ashkenazi Jew genetic panel that you take when you're pregnant to test for genetic abnormalities. It's not the "european" panel.

Read about it.

+1. It’s true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is unacceptable. Period.

Are you Jewish? If not, it’s not for you to say.

If so, recognize not everyone gets offended by it, assuming it’s done innocently.

I am Jewish and have expressed my opinion. I don’t care if it doesn’t offend you. It offends me. All Jews don’t look alike, feel alike, or have to express the same opinions. We also are not collectively responsible for the actions of all Jews. Some Jews have red hair and freckles. Some have blond hair and blue eyes. Some have button noses, and some have prominent noses. Some Jews are brown and some are fair. There is no one Jewish look. To say that a person looks Jewish feeds into anti-Semitic stereotypes, in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. This is MY truth.

Alright, fine. But do you accept the reality that 10-11 million of the 16 million Jews are Ashkenazi, which is a distinct genetic group that has physical similarities? Or are you just pretending that doesn't exist.

I'm a DP, I posted above also saying (as a Jew) that I think it's offensive, and I agree with the PP. I accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, but I don't see why that makes a difference.

If you accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, and thus have related genes, how do you deny the objective reality that many have physical characteristics in common, just as Swedes or Norwegians or Irish or Poles or Kenyans do? Is it offensive to observe -- in a neutral, non-derogatory way -- that there are a ton of super blond kids in Sweden even though not all Swedish kids are blond? Or that different African tribes may have different facial features? Or that Japanese say they can tell at a glance who is Japanese and who is of a different Asian ethnicity despite having similar hair and eye color because of a distinctive "look" even though not everyone looks that way? Yes, some Jews have red hair and freckles, and some have blond hair and blue eyes, etc, but overall in a given population of Ashkenazi Jews, there is a much higher percentage of dark and wavy or curly hair than red or blond hair. It's not a value judgement, it's an observation.

It's only when you impute negative stereotypes to observed characteristics that it becomes offensive.

Yes, I fully accept what you are saying about Ashkenazis (and I'm one too), and that many of us have physical characteristics in common. What I'm saying though is that despite this, because of the history of antisemitism and persecution, and because of the way Jewish (Ashkenazi) characteristics crop up in antisemitic tropes (the long crooked noses, etc) saying that someone looks Jewish is not a benign statement and should be avoided. I'm the European PP above and perhaps my perspective is different to yours because I didn't grow up in a large Jewish community in e.g. New York, I grew up somewhere where a statement about Jewish looks would usually mean something negative. That is why, in my opinion, it is different to saying that someone looks Swedish because they have blonde hair.

No one is denying that it's often a negative statement. You, however, seemed to be implying that you weren't willing to accept that there are ANY physical similarities among ANY Jews. That's just false.

If you're responding to my statement above yours, I've clearly said that I am willing to accept that there are physical similarities among many Jews. I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. But as I understand this thread, the issue is not whether there actually are physical similarities, but whether saying that someone looks very Jewish (acknowledging that there may indeed be a stereotypically Jewish look) is benign or not. And my view is that although it may be intended as a benign statement, it is not because of the specific history involved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is unacceptable. Period.

Are you Jewish? If not, it’s not for you to say.

If so, recognize not everyone gets offended by it, assuming it’s done innocently.

I am Jewish and have expressed my opinion. I don’t care if it doesn’t offend you. It offends me. All Jews don’t look alike, feel alike, or have to express the same opinions. We also are not collectively responsible for the actions of all Jews. Some Jews have red hair and freckles. Some have blond hair and blue eyes. Some have button noses, and some have prominent noses. Some Jews are brown and some are fair. There is no one Jewish look. To say that a person looks Jewish feeds into anti-Semitic stereotypes, in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. This is MY truth.

Alright, fine. But do you accept the reality that 10-11 million of the 16 million Jews are Ashkenazi, which is a distinct genetic group that has physical similarities? Or are you just pretending that doesn't exist.

I'm a DP, I posted above also saying (as a Jew) that I think it's offensive, and I agree with the PP. I accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, but I don't see why that makes a difference.

If you accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, and thus have related genes, how do you deny the objective reality that many have physical characteristics in common, just as Swedes or Norwegians or Irish or Poles or Kenyans do? Is it offensive to observe -- in a neutral, non-derogatory way -- that there are a ton of super blond kids in Sweden even though not all Swedish kids are blond? Or that different African tribes may have different facial features? Or that Japanese say they can tell at a glance who is Japanese and who is of a different Asian ethnicity despite having similar hair and eye color because of a distinctive "look" even though not everyone looks that way? Yes, some Jews have red hair and freckles, and some have blond hair and blue eyes, etc, but overall in a given population of Ashkenazi Jews, there is a much higher percentage of dark and wavy or curly hair than red or blond hair. It's not a value judgement, it's an observation.

It's only when you impute negative stereotypes to observed characteristics that it becomes offensive.

Yes, I fully accept what you are saying about Ashkenazis (and I'm one too), and that many of us have physical characteristics in common. What I'm saying though is that despite this, because of the history of antisemitism and persecution, and because of the way Jewish (Ashkenazi) characteristics crop up in antisemitic tropes (the long crooked noses, etc) saying that someone looks Jewish is not a benign statement and should be avoided. I'm the European PP above and perhaps my perspective is different to yours because I didn't grow up in a large Jewish community in e.g. New York, I grew up somewhere where a statement about Jewish looks would usually mean something negative. That is why, in my opinion, it is different to saying that someone looks Swedish because they have blonde hair.

No one is denying that it's often a negative statement. You, however, seemed to be implying that you weren't willing to accept that there are ANY physical similarities among ANY Jews. That's just false.

I disagree with you. Ashkenazi Jews look like all other Europeans. There is no distinct Jewish look. Sorry, but no. Can’t acknowledge that. It simply is false and spreads tropes. There are also Jews from Arab lands that look Arab. What you are saying is so contrived.

No. You're just wrong.

Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct genetic group, different from other genetic groups in Europe, the Middle East, or anywhere else. There's a thing called the Ashkenazi Jew genetic panel that you take when you're pregnant to test for genetic abnormalities. It's not the "european" panel.

Read about it.

That doesn't mean that Ashkenazi Jews look alike. That's like saying all Black people look alike. They have genetic testing done as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:It is unacceptable. Period.

Are you Jewish? If not, it’s not for you to say.

If so, recognize not everyone gets offended by it, assuming it’s done innocently.

I am Jewish and have expressed my opinion. I don’t care if it doesn’t offend you. It offends me. All Jews don’t look alike, feel alike, or have to express the same opinions. We also are not collectively responsible for the actions of all Jews. Some Jews have red hair and freckles. Some have blond hair and blue eyes. Some have button noses, and some have prominent noses. Some Jews are brown and some are fair. There is no one Jewish look. To say that a person looks Jewish feeds into anti-Semitic stereotypes, in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. This is MY truth.

Alright, fine. But do you accept the reality that 10-11 million of the 16 million Jews are Ashkenazi, which is a distinct genetic group that has physical similarities? Or are you just pretending that doesn't exist.

I'm a DP, I posted above also saying (as a Jew) that I think it's offensive, and I agree with the PP. I accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, but I don't see why that makes a difference.

If you accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, and thus have related genes, how do you deny the objective reality that many have physical characteristics in common, just as Swedes or Norwegians or Irish or Poles or Kenyans do? Is it offensive to observe -- in a neutral, non-derogatory way -- that there are a ton of super blond kids in Sweden even though not all Swedish kids are blond? Or that different African tribes may have different facial features? Or that Japanese say they can tell at a glance who is Japanese and who is of a different Asian ethnicity despite having similar hair and eye color because of a distinctive "look" even though not everyone looks that way? Yes, some Jews have red hair and freckles, and some have blond hair and blue eyes, etc, but overall in a given population of Ashkenazi Jews, there is a much higher percentage of dark and wavy or curly hair than red or blond hair. It's not a value judgement, it's an observation.

It's only when you impute negative stereotypes to observed characteristics that it becomes offensive.

Yes, I fully accept what you are saying about Ashkenazis (and I'm one too), and that many of us have physical characteristics in common. What I'm saying though is that despite this, because of the history of antisemitism and persecution, and because of the way Jewish (Ashkenazi) characteristics crop up in antisemitic tropes (the long crooked noses, etc) saying that someone looks Jewish is not a benign statement and should be avoided. I'm the European PP above and perhaps my perspective is different to yours because I didn't grow up in a large Jewish community in e.g. New York, I grew up somewhere where a statement about Jewish looks would usually mean something negative. That is why, in my opinion, it is different to saying that someone looks Swedish because they have blonde hair.

No one is denying that it's often a negative statement. You, however, seemed to be implying that you weren't willing to accept that there are ANY physical similarities among ANY Jews. That's just false.

I disagree with you. Ashkenazi Jews look like all other Europeans. There is no distinct Jewish look. Sorry, but no. Can’t acknowledge that. It simply is false and spreads tropes. There are also Jews from Arab lands that look Arab. What you are saying is so contrived.

No. You're just wrong.

Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct genetic group, different from other genetic groups in Europe, the Middle East, or anywhere else. There's a thing called the Ashkenazi Jew genetic panel that you take when you're pregnant to test for genetic abnormalities. It's not the "european" panel.

Read about it.

That doesn't mean that Ashkenazi Jews look alike. That's like saying all Black people look alike. They have genetic testing done as well.

Except many of us do. That’s largely because of a history of intermarrying. Just read about it please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is unacceptable. Period.

Are you Jewish? If not, it’s not for you to say.

If so, recognize not everyone gets offended by it, assuming it’s done innocently.

I am Jewish and have expressed my opinion. I don’t care if it doesn’t offend you. It offends me. All Jews don’t look alike, feel alike, or have to express the same opinions. We also are not collectively responsible for the actions of all Jews. Some Jews have red hair and freckles. Some have blond hair and blue eyes. Some have button noses, and some have prominent noses. Some Jews are brown and some are fair. There is no one Jewish look. To say that a person looks Jewish feeds into anti-Semitic stereotypes, in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. This is MY truth.

Alright, fine. But do you accept the reality that 10-11 million of the 16 million Jews are Ashkenazi, which is a distinct genetic group that has physical similarities? Or are you just pretending that doesn't exist.

I'm a DP, I posted above also saying (as a Jew) that I think it's offensive, and I agree with the PP. I accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, but I don't see why that makes a difference.

If you accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, and thus have related genes, how do you deny the objective reality that many have physical characteristics in common, just as Swedes or Norwegians or Irish or Poles or Kenyans do? Is it offensive to observe -- in a neutral, non-derogatory way -- that there are a ton of super blond kids in Sweden even though not all Swedish kids are blond? Or that different African tribes may have different facial features? Or that Japanese say they can tell at a glance who is Japanese and who is of a different Asian ethnicity despite having similar hair and eye color because of a distinctive "look" even though not everyone looks that way? Yes, some Jews have red hair and freckles, and some have blond hair and blue eyes, etc, but overall in a given population of Ashkenazi Jews, there is a much higher percentage of dark and wavy or curly hair than red or blond hair. It's not a value judgement, it's an observation.

It's only when you impute negative stereotypes to observed characteristics that it becomes offensive.

Yes, I fully accept what you are saying about Ashkenazis (and I'm one too), and that many of us have physical characteristics in common. What I'm saying though is that despite this, because of the history of antisemitism and persecution, and because of the way Jewish (Ashkenazi) characteristics crop up in antisemitic tropes (the long crooked noses, etc) saying that someone looks Jewish is not a benign statement and should be avoided. I'm the European PP above and perhaps my perspective is different to yours because I didn't grow up in a large Jewish community in e.g. New York, I grew up somewhere where a statement about Jewish looks would usually mean something negative. That is why, in my opinion, it is different to saying that someone looks Swedish because they have blonde hair.

No one is denying that it's often a negative statement. You, however, seemed to be implying that you weren't willing to accept that there are ANY physical similarities among ANY Jews. That's just false.

I disagree with you. Ashkenazi Jews look like all other Europeans. There is no distinct Jewish look. Sorry, but no. Can’t acknowledge that. It simply is false and spreads tropes. There are also Jews from Arab lands that look Arab. What you are saying is so contrived.

No. You're just wrong.

Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct genetic group, different from other genetic groups in Europe, the Middle East, or anywhere else. There's a thing called the Ashkenazi Jew genetic panel that you take when you're pregnant to test for genetic abnormalities. It's not the "european" panel.

Read about it.

That doesn't mean that Ashkenazi Jews look alike. That's like saying all Black people look alike. They have genetic testing done as well.

Except many of us do. That’s largely because of a history of intermarrying. Just read about it please.

We also look like other Europeans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is unacceptable. Period.

Are you Jewish? If not, it’s not for you to say.

If so, recognize not everyone gets offended by it, assuming it’s done innocently.

I am Jewish and have expressed my opinion. I don’t care if it doesn’t offend you. It offends me. All Jews don’t look alike, feel alike, or have to express the same opinions. We also are not collectively responsible for the actions of all Jews. Some Jews have red hair and freckles. Some have blond hair and blue eyes. Some have button noses, and some have prominent noses. Some Jews are brown and some are fair. There is no one Jewish look. To say that a person looks Jewish feeds into anti-Semitic stereotypes, in my opinion. You don’t have to agree with me. This is MY truth.

Alright, fine. But do you accept the reality that 10-11 million of the 16 million Jews are Ashkenazi, which is a distinct genetic group that has physical similarities? Or are you just pretending that doesn't exist.

I'm a DP, I posted above also saying (as a Jew) that I think it's offensive, and I agree with the PP. I accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, but I don't see why that makes a difference.

If you accept that a large proportion of Jews are Ashkenazi, and thus have related genes, how do you deny the objective reality that many have physical characteristics in common, just as Swedes or Norwegians or Irish or Poles or Kenyans do? Is it offensive to observe -- in a neutral, non-derogatory way -- that there are a ton of super blond kids in Sweden even though not all Swedish kids are blond? Or that different African tribes may have different facial features? Or that Japanese say they can tell at a glance who is Japanese and who is of a different Asian ethnicity despite having similar hair and eye color because of a distinctive "look" even though not everyone looks that way? Yes, some Jews have red hair and freckles, and some have blond hair and blue eyes, etc, but overall in a given population of Ashkenazi Jews, there is a much higher percentage of dark and wavy or curly hair than red or blond hair. It's not a value judgement, it's an observation.

It's only when you impute negative stereotypes to observed characteristics that it becomes offensive.

Yes, I fully accept what you are saying about Ashkenazis (and I'm one too), and that many of us have physical characteristics in common. What I'm saying though is that despite this, because of the history of antisemitism and persecution, and because of the way Jewish (Ashkenazi) characteristics crop up in antisemitic tropes (the long crooked noses, etc) saying that someone looks Jewish is not a benign statement and should be avoided. I'm the European PP above and perhaps my perspective is different to yours because I didn't grow up in a large Jewish community in e.g. New York, I grew up somewhere where a statement about Jewish looks would usually mean something negative. That is why, in my opinion, it is different to saying that someone looks Swedish because they have blonde hair.

No one is denying that it's often a negative statement. You, however, seemed to be implying that you weren't willing to accept that there are ANY physical similarities among ANY Jews. That's just false.

I disagree with you. Ashkenazi Jews look like all other Europeans. There is no distinct Jewish look. Sorry, but no. Can’t acknowledge that. It simply is false and spreads tropes. There are also Jews from Arab lands that look Arab. What you are saying is so contrived.

No. You're just wrong.

Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct genetic group, different from other genetic groups in Europe, the Middle East, or anywhere else. There's a thing called the Ashkenazi Jew genetic panel that you take when you're pregnant to test for genetic abnormalities. It's not the "european" panel.

Read about it.

That doesn't mean that Ashkenazi Jews look alike. That's like saying all Black people look alike. They have genetic testing done as well.

Except many of us do. That’s largely because of a history of intermarrying. Just read about it please.

We also look like other Europeans.

Eastern Europeans maybe. Europe's a huge place. No, most Ashkenazi Jews don't look like the French or Irish. Russians and Poles, maybe.

[Anonymous]

"Eastern Europeans maybe. Europe's a huge place. No, most Ashkenazi Jews don't look like the French or Irish. Russians and Poles, maybe."

Right, and that's because historically, lots of Ashkenazi Jews lived in Russia and Poland (until we were killed or expelled during the pogroms and the Holocaust).

Why are people so vehemently against the notion that Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct group, different from Slavs, Poles, etc.? In Russia, until the late 90s, you would specify your ethnicity on your passport. "Russian" was different from "Jewish." It's the difference between your civic and ethnic identity. I know this is a weird concept for many Americans to grasp, but please try to understand.

Maybe this will help (from Wikipedia):

In an ethnic sense, an Ashkenazi Jew is one whose ancestry can be traced to the Jews who settled in Central Europe. For roughly a thousand years, the Ashkenazim were a reproductively isolated population in Europe, despite living in many countries, with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, including other Jews. Human geneticists have argued that genetic variations have been identified that show high frequencies among Ashkenazi Jews, but not in the general European population, be they for patrilineal markers (Y-chromosome haplotypes) and for matrilineal markers (mitotypes).[115] Since the middle of the 20th century, many Ashkenazi Jews have intermarried, both with members of other Jewish communities and with people of other nations and faiths.[116]

A 2006 study found Ashkenazi Jews to be a clear, homogeneous genetic subgroup. Strikingly, regardless of the place of origin, Ashkenazi Jews can be grouped in the same genetic cohort – that is, regardless of whether an Ashkenazi Jew's ancestors came from Poland, Russia, Hungary, Lithuania, or any other place with a historical Jewish population, they belong to the same ethnic group. The research demonstrates the endogamy of the Jewish population in Europe and lends further credence to the idea of Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group. Moreover, though intermarriage among Jews of Ashkenazi descent has become increasingly common, many Haredi Jews, particularly members of Hasidic or Hareidi sects, continue to marry exclusively fellow Ashkenazi Jews. This trend keeps Ashkenazi genes prevalent and also helps researchers further study the genes of Ashkenazi Jews with relative ease.