Is the refernece "he/she looks very Jewish" benign or an insult?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Eastern Europeans maybe. Europe's a huge place. No, most Ashkenazi Jews don't look like the French or Irish. Russians and Poles, maybe."

Right, and that's because historically, lots of Ashkenazi Jews lived in Russia and Poland (until we were killed or expelled during the pogroms and the Holocaust).

Why are people so vehemently against the notion that Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct group, different from Slavs, Poles, etc.? In Russia, until the late 90s, you would specify your ethnicity on your passport. "Russian" was different from "Jewish." It's the difference between your civic and ethnic identity. I know this is a weird concept for many Americans to grasp, but please try to understand.

Maybe this will help (from Wikipedia):

In an ethnic sense, an Ashkenazi Jew is one whose ancestry can be traced to the Jews who settled in Central Europe. For roughly a thousand years, the Ashkenazim were a reproductively isolated population in Europe, despite living in many countries, with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, including other Jews. Human geneticists have argued that genetic variations have been identified that show high frequencies among Ashkenazi Jews, but not in the general European population, be they for patrilineal markers (Y-chromosome haplotypes) and for matrilineal markers (mitotypes).[115] Since the middle of the 20th century, many Ashkenazi Jews have intermarried, both with members of other Jewish communities and with people of other nations and faiths.[116]

A 2006 study found Ashkenazi Jews to be a clear, homogeneous genetic subgroup. Strikingly, regardless of the place of origin, Ashkenazi Jews can be grouped in the same genetic cohort – that is, regardless of whether an Ashkenazi Jew's ancestors came from Poland, Russia, Hungary, Lithuania, or any other place with a historical Jewish population, they belong to the same ethnic group. The research demonstrates the endogamy of the Jewish population in Europe and lends further credence to the idea of Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group. Moreover, though intermarriage among Jews of Ashkenazi descent has become increasingly common, many Haredi Jews, particularly members of Hasidic or Hareidi sects, continue to marry exclusively fellow Ashkenazi Jews. This trend keeps Ashkenazi genes prevalent and also helps researchers further study the genes of Ashkenazi Jews with relative ease.

I don't disagree with you, but before 1930 or so (and maybe far later, I don't know), one's civic identity was different too. Jews weren't considered citizens. They were almost like permanent resident aliens.

Japan does something similar today with Japanese Koreans. They don't really consider them Japanese at all even though various groups of Koreans have lived in Japan since WWII or earlier. They are discriminated against and even if they adopt Japanese names (versus ethnic Korean names) background checks will show their ancestry. It's not hardcore discrimination like Jim Crow, but it's there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Eastern Europeans maybe. Europe's a huge place. No, most Ashkenazi Jews don't look like the French or Irish. Russians and Poles, maybe."

Right, and that's because historically, lots of Ashkenazi Jews lived in Russia and Poland (until we were killed or expelled during the pogroms and the Holocaust).

Why are people so vehemently against the notion that Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct group, different from Slavs, Poles, etc.? In Russia, until the late 90s, you would specify your ethnicity on your passport. "Russian" was different from "Jewish." It's the difference between your civic and ethnic identity. I know this is a weird concept for many Americans to grasp, but please try to understand.

Maybe this will help (from Wikipedia):

In an ethnic sense, an Ashkenazi Jew is one whose ancestry can be traced to the Jews who settled in Central Europe. For roughly a thousand years, the Ashkenazim were a reproductively isolated population in Europe, despite living in many countries, with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, including other Jews. Human geneticists have argued that genetic variations have been identified that show high frequencies among Ashkenazi Jews, but not in the general European population, be they for patrilineal markers (Y-chromosome haplotypes) and for matrilineal markers (mitotypes).[115] Since the middle of the 20th century, many Ashkenazi Jews have intermarried, both with members of other Jewish communities and with people of other nations and faiths.[116]

A 2006 study found Ashkenazi Jews to be a clear, homogeneous genetic subgroup. Strikingly, regardless of the place of origin, Ashkenazi Jews can be grouped in the same genetic cohort – that is, regardless of whether an Ashkenazi Jew's ancestors came from Poland, Russia, Hungary, Lithuania, or any other place with a historical Jewish population, they belong to the same ethnic group. The research demonstrates the endogamy of the Jewish population in Europe and lends further credence to the idea of Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group. Moreover, though intermarriage among Jews of Ashkenazi descent has become increasingly common, many Haredi Jews, particularly members of Hasidic or Hareidi sects, continue to marry exclusively fellow Ashkenazi Jews. This trend keeps Ashkenazi genes prevalent and also helps researchers further study the genes of Ashkenazi Jews with relative ease.

Interesting! Thanks for posting. -DP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Why are people so vehemently against the notion that Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct group, different from Slavs, Poles, etc.?

1. Because people have tried to kill us because of that. Kinda makes you want to talk about it with caution

2. Because some people (both Jews and non Jews) have used it in "friendly" but also morally (and scientifically) questionable ways - see the debate over Ashkenazi intelligence

3. Because its not 100% accurate - there is genetic evidence, IIUC, that Ashkenazi Jews are similar genetically other European origin Sephardim.

4. Because (as point 3 shows) there is room for confusion between "ethnic" Ashkenazim (where ethnic is a euphemism for racial, rather than a cultural marker), ethnic ashkenazim in the shared culture and recent origin sense (which would include people long assimilated into ashkenazi culture whatever their DNA/appearance etc), cultural ashkenazim (which would include anyone currently participating in Ashkenazi culture, which includes both many Jews by Choice and SOME sephardic origin people in America, and excludes people of Ashkenazi background who have little or no Ashkenazi culture) and religious ashkenazim - IE people who follow Ashkenazi rites/minhags, regardless of secular culture.

Note this last is the way the term has been used for hundreds of years among Jews, and in most traditional Jewish sources.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Eastern Europeans maybe. Europe's a huge place. No, most Ashkenazi Jews don't look like the French or Irish. Russians and Poles, maybe."

Right, and that's because historically, lots of Ashkenazi Jews lived in Russia and Poland (until we were killed or expelled during the pogroms and the Holocaust).

Why are people so vehemently against the notion that Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct group, different from Slavs, Poles, etc.? In Russia, until the late 90s, you would specify your ethnicity on your passport. "Russian" was different from "Jewish." It's the difference between your civic and ethnic identity. I know this is a weird concept for many Americans to grasp, but please try to understand.

Maybe this will help (from Wikipedia):

In an ethnic sense, an Ashkenazi Jew is one whose ancestry can be traced to the Jews who settled in Central Europe. For roughly a thousand years, the Ashkenazim were a reproductively isolated population in Europe, despite living in many countries, with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, including other Jews. Human geneticists have argued that genetic variations have been identified that show high frequencies among Ashkenazi Jews, but not in the general European population, be they for patrilineal markers (Y-chromosome haplotypes) and for matrilineal markers (mitotypes).[115] Since the middle of the 20th century, many Ashkenazi Jews have intermarried, both with members of other Jewish communities and with people of other nations and faiths.[116]

A 2006 study found Ashkenazi Jews to be a clear, homogeneous genetic subgroup. Strikingly, regardless of the place of origin, Ashkenazi Jews can be grouped in the same genetic cohort – that is, regardless of whether an Ashkenazi Jew's ancestors came from Poland, Russia, Hungary, Lithuania, or any other place with a historical Jewish population, they belong to the same ethnic group. The research demonstrates the endogamy of the Jewish population in Europe and lends further credence to the idea of Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group. Moreover, though intermarriage among Jews of Ashkenazi descent has become increasingly common, many Haredi Jews, particularly members of Hasidic or Hareidi sects, continue to marry exclusively fellow Ashkenazi Jews. This trend keeps Ashkenazi genes prevalent and also helps researchers further study the genes of Ashkenazi Jews with relative ease.

I didn’t read anywhere that anyone was disputing that ashkenazi Jews are an ethnic group. Where is that disputed. I read that some people believe that while Ashkenazim are an ethnic group, that does not mean that Jews look a certain way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Eastern Europeans maybe. Europe's a huge place. No, most Ashkenazi Jews don't look like the French or Irish. Russians and Poles, maybe."

Right, and that's because historically, lots of Ashkenazi Jews lived in Russia and Poland (until we were killed or expelled during the pogroms and the Holocaust).

Why are people so vehemently against the notion that Ashkenazi Jews are a distinct group, different from Slavs, Poles, etc.? In Russia, until the late 90s, you would specify your ethnicity on your passport. "Russian" was different from "Jewish." It's the difference between your civic and ethnic identity. I know this is a weird concept for many Americans to grasp, but please try to understand.

Maybe this will help (from Wikipedia):

In an ethnic sense, an Ashkenazi Jew is one whose ancestry can be traced to the Jews who settled in Central Europe. For roughly a thousand years, the Ashkenazim were a reproductively isolated population in Europe, despite living in many countries, with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, including other Jews. Human geneticists have argued that genetic variations have been identified that show high frequencies among Ashkenazi Jews, but not in the general European population, be they for patrilineal markers (Y-chromosome haplotypes) and for matrilineal markers (mitotypes).[115] Since the middle of the 20th century, many Ashkenazi Jews have intermarried, both with members of other Jewish communities and with people of other nations and faiths.[116]

A 2006 study found Ashkenazi Jews to be a clear, homogeneous genetic subgroup. Strikingly, regardless of the place of origin, Ashkenazi Jews can be grouped in the same genetic cohort – that is, regardless of whether an Ashkenazi Jew's ancestors came from Poland, Russia, Hungary, Lithuania, or any other place with a historical Jewish population, they belong to the same ethnic group. The research demonstrates the endogamy of the Jewish population in Europe and lends further credence to the idea of Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group. Moreover, though intermarriage among Jews of Ashkenazi descent has become increasingly common, many Haredi Jews, particularly members of Hasidic or Hareidi sects, continue to marry exclusively fellow Ashkenazi Jews. This trend keeps Ashkenazi genes prevalent and also helps researchers further study the genes of Ashkenazi Jews with relative ease.

I didn’t read anywhere that anyone was disputing that ashkenazi Jews are an ethnic group. Where is that disputed. I read that some people believe that while Ashkenazim are an ethnic group, that does not mean that Jews look a certain way.

See the post above yours. That person absolutely disputes it.

Many Ashkenazi Jews do have physical similarities because we intermarried for a very long time. It's called endogamy. I really don't understand why this is such a difficult concept for people to accept. Why refuse to acknowledge that those similarities exist among many Jews? Isn't that allowing discussion of our physical appearance to be dominated by those who hate us? We should reclaim our physical appearance and be proud of it. Celebrate our diversity of appearance, but also say, "You know what? I have long, dark hair and dark eyes and DAMMIT I LOOK JEWISH AND I'M PROUD OF IT."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
That's not acceptable. It implies there is a Jewish look, like the Nazis tried to establish (hooked nose, etc). I have some blond, blue-eyed, straight nosed Jewish neighbors.

It's not the same thing as saying Asian, or Caucasian, or Black, etc... , where clearly there is a phenotype.

+1. If it's said by a non-Jew, I'd think it's an awkward and clueless comment.

-1. Like a PP mentioned, there is an Ashkenazi Jewish phenotype. It’s genetic. Plenty of Jews, who are not Nazis (!), recognize this.

Agreed. I’m married to a Jew and grew up in ny. I can tell who is Jewish with high degrees of accuracy. I’m not white.

[Anonymous]

Generally it’s an insult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure about this one. I know people who are told that they look very Irish or Scandinavian or Italian or Greek. How is this different?

Plus 1 and I am Jewish

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not sure about this one. I know people who are told that they look very Irish or Scandinavian or Italian or Greek. How is this different?

Plus 1 and I am Jewish

My thought as well. Also Jewish.

[Anonymous]

For any marginalized/targeted group--Jews, Latinos, black people--saying one "looks ____" can be seen as an insult. It's an awkward thing to say unless you're talking to other members of that group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For any marginalized/targeted group--Jews, Latinos, black people--saying one "looks ____" can be seen as an insult. It's an awkward thing to say unless you're talking to other members of that group.

I think because Jews have had so much economic power they don’t feel marginalized.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For any marginalized/targeted group--Jews, Latinos, black people--saying one "looks ____" can be seen as an insult. It's an awkward thing to say unless you're talking to other members of that group.

I think because Jews have had so much economic power they don’t feel marginalized.

Ah, we’ve found our first anti-Semite. Thank you for identifying yourself so clearly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For any marginalized/targeted group--Jews, Latinos, black people--saying one "looks ____" can be seen as an insult. It's an awkward thing to say unless you're talking to other members of that group.

I think because Jews have had so much economic power they don’t feel marginalized.

Wow.

I’m going to assume you’re just ignorant and not a raging anti-Semite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For any marginalized/targeted group--Jews, Latinos, black people--saying one "looks ____" can be seen as an insult. It's an awkward thing to say unless you're talking to other members of that group.

I think because Jews have had so much economic power they don’t feel marginalized.

Wow.

I’m going to assume you’re just ignorant and not a raging anti-Semite.

Not the pp, but economic power in terms of Aipac, US aid to Israel, Jews tend to not be the ones receiving hoc vouchers, farms or snap benefits.

So yes, I get it
Vocal in local affairs. Schools are not allowed to mention Christmas, has to be Winter break

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For any marginalized/targeted group--Jews, Latinos, black people--saying one "looks ____" can be seen as an insult. It's an awkward thing to say unless you're talking to other members of that group.

I think because Jews have had so much economic power they don’t feel marginalized.

I bet you said the same about African Americans after Obama was elected. “They have a black president so how marginalized can they be?”