Question from a teacher about your kids...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and also, I would never try to have a conversation with a friend about the specific merits of a given article without reading the article. The content, sure — “oh yes, Charles Mann argues that the population of the Americas before Columbus was much larger than we thought” but not “Charles Mann has this beautifully lyrical description of Amazonia...” (I’d immediately go “ooh lemme see.”)

And what if- hear me out- this exact thing happens to kids and they go “wait let me read that” and then they too are doing extra reading just because they were curious.

I mean, great, but you’re making it sound like the best thing that could come out of your class are kids reading on their own, which as the kid who would have preferred to read her own book in the library than go to English class (and whose kid is the same!) makes me wonder why it should be a required course. But that’s cool, I was already pretty sold on a classical curriculum for my kids.

I think you are missing the point. English class is not about reading the book. One can do that on their own. It's about dissecting and discussing the book. You know, critical thinking. That's why it's a required course. It has never been about the reading part.

No, I don't think PP was missing the point. I think OP is missing the point. To OP, the point of English class is to read the book and 'love reading.'

[Anonymous]

pp and teen has read so far in addition to required reading:
Death on the Nile
The Song of Achilles
Tom Sawyer
Never Caught: The Washington's Relentless Pursuit of Their Runaway Slave

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...what do you do in class when everyone is reading a different book? Granted I was in MS almost twenty years ago at a private school, but as I recall we did a lot of discussing the plot, symbolism, character motivation, close reading, etc. Or is literary analysis now outdated as well? It seems like “read something you love to develop a sense of joy with the written word” is for SSR in elementary school, not middle or HS English class. What’s changed?

(PS: we read Kindred in seventh grade and idk if it counts as a classic but it was great!)

They can still discuss all those in the context of their own book. Track YOUR character’s development. What motivates them? What do their words and choices reveal about them? How does YOUR book use imagery or setting to impact the story? They can do all that and have discussions around big questions (e.g., “Who or what determines whose stories get told?”) in the context of their own book. All books have plot, characters, dialogue, literary devices- they’re just applying their knowledge of those things to analyze how they work in their book and to what effect.

I agree that kids should have some choice, but if they write essays about this you would have to be familiar with every single book to be able to evaluate it. I would be disappointed if my junior didn't have any classroom discussions. HS's should read something like On Democracy or other book about societal issues (e.g. environment) and discuss since they will be future voters. I doubt that most teens are able to write as passionately about a book, as they are able to discuss it. To not have a single group required book is a missed opportunity at best.

Not necessarily. If a kid can say “the theme of my book is this” and then back it up with textual support and evidence that they analyze and explain and connect, they have done a typical HS classroom writing task. The cool thing about literature is there doesn’t always have to be one right answer. I might think a theme is A but if someone else thinks it B and can back that up with evidence from the text, they’re not wrong. If I say write a letter to someone in authority about the social issue in your book, I’m assessing their writing skills- I don’t have to know a single thing about that book to know whether their letter was written appropriately, meets the task, etc. There would be tons of opportunity for class discussion and Socratic seminars.

No English class in my school reads On Democracy fwiw. Maybe the history classes do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and also, I would never try to have a conversation with a friend about the specific merits of a given article without reading the article. The content, sure — “oh yes, Charles Mann argues that the population of the Americas before Columbus was much larger than we thought” but not “Charles Mann has this beautifully lyrical description of Amazonia...” (I’d immediately go “ooh lemme see.”)

And what if- hear me out- this exact thing happens to kids and they go “wait let me read that” and then they too are doing extra reading just because they were curious.

I mean, great, but you’re making it sound like the best thing that could come out of your class are kids reading on their own, which as the kid who would have preferred to read her own book in the library than go to English class (and whose kid is the same!) makes me wonder why it should be a required course. But that’s cool, I was already pretty sold on a classical curriculum for my kids.

I think you are missing the point. English class is not about reading the book. One can do that on their own. It's about dissecting and discussing the book. You know, critical thinking. That's why it's a required course. It has never been about the reading part.

No, I don't think PP was missing the point. I think OP is missing the point. To OP, the point of English class is to read the book and 'love reading.'

No, the books are actually beside the point which is why I don’t need to control what they pick. The point of English class is to connect with humanity, honor someone else’s voice and lived experience, hone your own writing and voice to tell your story, understand your world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and also, I would never try to have a conversation with a friend about the specific merits of a given article without reading the article. The content, sure — “oh yes, Charles Mann argues that the population of the Americas before Columbus was much larger than we thought” but not “Charles Mann has this beautifully lyrical description of Amazonia...” (I’d immediately go “ooh lemme see.”)

And what if- hear me out- this exact thing happens to kids and they go “wait let me read that” and then they too are doing extra reading just because they were curious.

I mean, great, but you’re making it sound like the best thing that could come out of your class are kids reading on their own, which as the kid who would have preferred to read her own book in the library than go to English class (and whose kid is the same!) makes me wonder why it should be a required course. But that’s cool, I was already pretty sold on a classical curriculum for my kids.

I think you are missing the point. English class is not about reading the book. One can do that on their own. It's about dissecting and discussing the book. You know, critical thinking. That's why it's a required course. It has never been about the reading part.

No, I don't think PP was missing the point. I think OP is missing the point. To OP, the point of English class is to read the book and 'love reading.'

No, the books are actually beside the point which is why I don’t need to control what they pick. The point of English class is to connect with humanity, honor someone else’s voice and lived experience, hone your own writing and voice to tell your story, understand your world.

Are you OP?

Because you are contradicting yourself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another teacher here just chiming in to say that you sound like a very good and thoughtful teacher. I imagine you work at a private school? Since you seem to have flexibility in what you teach.

Nope, public. But a great school and a great department which means my colleagues and I get a lot of freedom to teach the kids in the way we think is best and we are constantly collaborating. Current research shows that students read more when given choice. My classes are built around readers and writers workshops - it’s just that this year I would like to move away from free choice independent reading during class to doing all our literature study around books of choice. If that gets them to read more, that’s the important part. They don’t need to be forced into Gatsby or Mockingbird.

Getting kids to read for pleasure is a huge struggle and I’m tailoring my curriculum to hopefully help them do more of that without the whole “we are going to read this tedious old book from 1945 and beat it to death” thing. It’s a good jumping off point for me to know whether the kids are reading books of their choice when they’re able or if they’re not reading at home either since getting them to think of reading as a valuable pastime they should consider doing for enjoyment is, well, hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The Hate U Give would be an amazing choice for them to read AND deals with the same themes of Mockingbird in a much better, more relevant way.

This thread has really been illuminating. Specifically because I trust kids to own their reading choices and pick books that matter to them and would like to give them that freedom I’m seen as “berating” them (?) and, paradoxically, NOT trusting them. I explicitly do trust them to pick what’s best *for them*. If Mockingbird works for Kid A, great. If THUG works for Kid B, great! But I didn’t make either kid pick either book. Truly surprising to me that parents would see kids getting ownership over their education like this and think “that’s terrible, she should make them read (see: Sparknote) Crime and Punishment.”

What is your purpose then if they get to just pick what's best for them? Do you have no role in also suggesting that, in addition to those books, they should challenge themselves because they won't be prepared for college. Yes, as a parent, I think an important part of sending my kids to school is having teachers who think preparing them for higher education is important. My teen doesn't need unfettered control of her education. It's great for you to help develop a love of reading, but loving to read easy books with no other exposure will not produce well rounded, capable kids. I think this is all lost on you because you've decided there's only one way/one goal. I hope my kids aren't unfortunate enough to have a teacher with tunnel vision, who latches on to one aspect of what kids need without considering the big picture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hi! It’s me, the high school English teacher. Gearing up for another year back. I’m playing around with my curriculum this year and thinking I will do no whole- class texts this year and instead give the kids a genre or general requirement and then have them choose a book within those parameters. So, for instance, if I say a book by a BIPOC author, they can choose any book that interests them as long as it was written by someone who is Black, Indigenous, or otherwise a person of color. All our mini lessons, essential questions, tasks will revolve around that type of book so what they are reading specifically won’t matter- they’ll be able to apply it all to their individual text.

Here’s my question to you: can you tell me honestly if your kid actually read for pleasure this summer and if so, what they read? Don’t be selective about answering only if your kid did, it helps me to know if they didn’t as well. Getting kids to read for pleasure is a huge struggle and I’m tailoring my curriculum to hopefully help them do more of that without the whole “we are going to read this tedious old book from 1945 and beat it to death” thing. It’s a good jumping off point for me to know whether the kids are reading books of their choice when they’re able or if they’re not reading at home either since getting them to think of reading as a valuable pastime they should consider doing for enjoyment is, well, hard.

That's because some people simply don't enjoy reading for pleasure. yes, even very educated people

It's just the way it is. Some people read as a hobby and some don't. You are struggling against something that doesn't need to be fixed.

It's ok to tell kids you need to read a book as an assignment. You already received advise on at least making a list of book choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...what do you do in class when everyone is reading a different book? Granted I was in MS almost twenty years ago at a private school, but as I recall we did a lot of discussing the plot, symbolism, character motivation, close reading, etc. Or is literary analysis now outdated as well? It seems like “read something you love to develop a sense of joy with the written word” is for SSR in elementary school, not middle or HS English class. What’s changed?

(PS: we read Kindred in seventh grade and idk if it counts as a classic but it was great!)

They can still discuss all those in the context of their own book. Track YOUR character’s development. What motivates them? What do their words and choices reveal about them? How does YOUR book use imagery or setting to impact the story? They can do all that and have discussions around big questions (e.g., “Who or what determines whose stories get told?”) in the context of their own book. All books have plot, characters, dialogue, literary devices- they’re just applying their knowledge of those things to analyze how they work in their book and to what effect.

I agree that kids should have some choice, but if they write essays about this you would have to be familiar with every single book to be able to evaluate it. I would be disappointed if my junior didn't have any classroom discussions. HS's should read something like On Democracy or other book about societal issues (e.g. environment) and discuss since they will be future voters. I doubt that most teens are able to write as passionately about a book, as they are able to discuss it. To not have a single group required book is a missed opportunity at best.

Not necessarily. If a kid can say “the theme of my book is this” and then back it up with textual support and evidence that they analyze and explain and connect, they have done a typical HS classroom writing task. The cool thing about literature is there doesn’t always have to be one right answer. I might think a theme is A but if someone else thinks it B and can back that up with evidence from the text, they’re not wrong. If I say write a letter to someone in authority about the social issue in your book, I’m assessing their writing skills- I don’t have to know a single thing about that book to know whether their letter was written appropriately, meets the task, etc. There would be tons of opportunity for class discussion and Socratic seminars.

No English class in my school reads On Democracy fwiw. Maybe the history classes do.

I agree that some kids could do this, but could all of the kids? And, what if they missed an important theme? It could be hard to evaluate?

I'm not following how there would be a discussion and Socratic seminar?? If all the books were on say racism, wouldn't kids have to do a lot of explaining (an entire scene or plot) to get their point across if others hadn't read it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and also, I would never try to have a conversation with a friend about the specific merits of a given article without reading the article. The content, sure — “oh yes, Charles Mann argues that the population of the Americas before Columbus was much larger than we thought” but not “Charles Mann has this beautifully lyrical description of Amazonia...” (I’d immediately go “ooh lemme see.”)

And what if- hear me out- this exact thing happens to kids and they go “wait let me read that” and then they too are doing extra reading just because they were curious.

I mean, great, but you’re making it sound like the best thing that could come out of your class are kids reading on their own, which as the kid who would have preferred to read her own book in the library than go to English class (and whose kid is the same!) makes me wonder why it should be a required course. But that’s cool, I was already pretty sold on a classical curriculum for my kids.

I think you are missing the point. English class is not about reading the book. One can do that on their own. It's about dissecting and discussing the book. You know, critical thinking. That's why it's a required course. It has never been about the reading part.

No, I don't think PP was missing the point. I think OP is missing the point. To OP, the point of English class is to read the book and 'love reading.'

No, the books are actually beside the point which is why I don’t need to control what they pick. The point of English class is to connect with humanity, honor someone else’s voice and lived experience, hone your own writing and voice to tell your story, understand your world.

Are you OP?

Because you are contradicting yourself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another teacher here just chiming in to say that you sound like a very good and thoughtful teacher. I imagine you work at a private school? Since you seem to have flexibility in what you teach.

Nope, public. But a great school and a great department which means my colleagues and I get a lot of freedom to teach the kids in the way we think is best and we are constantly collaborating. Current research shows that students read more when given choice. My classes are built around readers and writers workshops - it’s just that this year I would like to move away from free choice independent reading during class to doing all our literature study around books of choice. If that gets them to read more, that’s the important part. They don’t need to be forced into Gatsby or Mockingbird.

Getting kids to read for pleasure is a huge struggle and I’m tailoring my curriculum to hopefully help them do more of that without the whole “we are going to read this tedious old book from 1945 and beat it to death” thing. It’s a good jumping off point for me to know whether the kids are reading books of their choice when they’re able or if they’re not reading at home either since getting them to think of reading as a valuable pastime they should consider doing for enjoyment is, well, hard.

It’s not a contradiction. In order to fulfill the purpose of English class, which is all I stated above, done through the vehicles of reading and writing, I need them to read books. If kids don’t enjoy reading, they don’t read the books. When they like reading but don’t enjoy the assigned book, they don’t read the books. So if I need them to read to get what I want them to get out of English, I need to find a way to make reading if not enjoyable, then bearable for them. Hence giving them the choice to pick a book they can, if not love, tolerate and maybe have some slight interest in.

I’d encourage you to ask all your kids if they truly read the books assigned in English class. I’m thinking a lot of you see Gatsby on the reading list and think “great, my kid is reading classics.” But really- ask them if they read it. My students are honest with me... they flat out do not do most assigned reading unless it’s done when we are in class and someone reads aloud and they have to take it in. For any English book they’ve been assigned since about 8th grade they’ve told me they just Sparknote it because the book is boring and they don’t want to read it. So as I see it, the binary here is not “classic” literature vs. “garbage they picked.” It’s “not doing the reading at all” vs “maybe at least doing some reading.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...what do you do in class when everyone is reading a different book? Granted I was in MS almost twenty years ago at a private school, but as I recall we did a lot of discussing the plot, symbolism, character motivation, close reading, etc. Or is literary analysis now outdated as well? It seems like “read something you love to develop a sense of joy with the written word” is for SSR in elementary school, not middle or HS English class. What’s changed?

(PS: we read Kindred in seventh grade and idk if it counts as a classic but it was great!)

They can still discuss all those in the context of their own book. Track YOUR character’s development. What motivates them? What do their words and choices reveal about them? How does YOUR book use imagery or setting to impact the story? They can do all that and have discussions around big questions (e.g., “Who or what determines whose stories get told?”) in the context of their own book. All books have plot, characters, dialogue, literary devices- they’re just applying their knowledge of those things to analyze how they work in their book and to what effect.

I agree that kids should have some choice, but if they write essays about this you would have to be familiar with every single book to be able to evaluate it. I would be disappointed if my junior didn't have any classroom discussions. HS's should read something like On Democracy or other book about societal issues (e.g. environment) and discuss since they will be future voters. I doubt that most teens are able to write as passionately about a book, as they are able to discuss it. To not have a single group required book is a missed opportunity at best.

Not necessarily. If a kid can say “the theme of my book is this” and then back it up with textual support and evidence that they analyze and explain and connect, they have done a typical HS classroom writing task. The cool thing about literature is there doesn’t always have to be one right answer. I might think a theme is A but if someone else thinks it B and can back that up with evidence from the text, they’re not wrong. If I say write a letter to someone in authority about the social issue in your book, I’m assessing their writing skills- I don’t have to know a single thing about that book to know whether their letter was written appropriately, meets the task, etc. There would be tons of opportunity for class discussion and Socratic seminars.

No English class in my school reads On Democracy fwiw. Maybe the history classes do.

I agree that some kids could do this, but could all of the kids? And, what if they missed an important theme? It could be hard to evaluate?

I'm not following how there would be a discussion and Socratic seminar?? If all the books were on say racism, wouldn't kids have to do a lot of explaining (an entire scene or plot) to get their point across if others hadn't read it?

There’s no task worth doing in class that all kids can do at all times. They’re all at different points of learning and have different skills and capabilities. That’s why we work independently with those who need more assistance, differentiate instruction and tasks, and make accommodations as we see fit once know each student’s academic strengths and weaknesses. We endeavor to get them all there, to the best of their capability, at their pace. Which is why one kid’s C can be another’s A.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another teacher here just chiming in to say that you sound like a very good and thoughtful teacher. I imagine you work at a private school? Since you seem to have flexibility in what you teach.

Nope, public. But a great school and a great department which means my colleagues and I get a lot of freedom to teach the kids in the way we think is best and we are constantly collaborating. Current research shows that students read more when given choice. My classes are built around readers and writers workshops - it’s just that this year I would like to move away from free choice independent reading during class to doing all our literature study around books of choice. If that gets them to read more, that’s the important part. They don’t need to be forced into Gatsby or Mockingbird.

Thank god you teach at public. I was worried that you might be my kid's teacher. I'm sorry, but any English teacher who doesn't understand why kids should be "forced" to read classics like Gatsby, Mockingbird, and Grapes of Wrath--even if those books make them uncomfortable--is not a good teacher. Life is uncomfortable, and all kids need to learn that. I'm pretty sure a book like Mockingbird makes everyone who reads it uncomfortable. That's why it's such a good book. I honestly feel sad for your students that you're depriving them of that opportunity.

Mockingbird is harmful to students of color. It gives students the idea that Atticus is a White savior. Tom is entirely dehumanized. Nobody is deprived of reading any book... they can choose Mockingbird if they want. They can also always read it at home with you. But I won’t MAKE kids read a book that is harmful to them.

Then talk about that with them. TEACH THEM. That's what you're paid to do. Wouldn't it be better to read it together as a group so you can point out all the problems you've identified with the book then having them read it on their own and draw these awful conclusions about Atticus and Tom? Stop avoiding difficult issues. You're like the constitutional law professor who doesn't want to teach Roe v. Wade or the criminal law professor who doesn't want to teach rape law because those topics are harmful to women. Buck up and be a good teacher who challenges her students.

This.

My older DD had a amazing English teacher. As a result, she had a very different experience with reading Mockingbird as one of 2 AAs in her predominantly white English classroom than I did in mine two decades earlier. My teacher never tried engaging us in a discussion of these issues and it reinforced the white savior tropes but my DD’s teacher really unpacked it with them. She also had them write alternative dialogue and descriptions.

+1

Teach them. It’s your job.

Funny, a lot of white conservatives want educators to stop teaching difficult texts as well. And we have to fight tooth & nail to get these books in classrooms
in some districts.

[Anonymous]

To circle back to the point that I should teach TKAM to disabuse students of racism and prejudice - as I’ve stated, I have to weigh the outcome vs. students sitting in my room being traumatized by a story or hearing their peers say very hurtful things that I then correct... but that they still heard. They have to sit and have the humanity of Black people (Tom) justified. It’s hard for me to inflict that on kids I care about.

Beyond that- those are the exact conversations that teachers get in trouble for because parents claim we are calling their kids racists or saying all white people are bad or indoctrinating them or “getting too political.” We really are damned if we do or don’t. I’d encourage you to have those conversations at home as much as possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...what do you do in class when everyone is reading a different book? Granted I was in MS almost twenty years ago at a private school, but as I recall we did a lot of discussing the plot, symbolism, character motivation, close reading, etc. Or is literary analysis now outdated as well? It seems like “read something you love to develop a sense of joy with the written word” is for SSR in elementary school, not middle or HS English class. What’s changed?

(PS: we read Kindred in seventh grade and idk if it counts as a classic but it was great!)

They can still discuss all those in the context of their own book. Track YOUR character’s development. What motivates them? What do their words and choices reveal about them? How does YOUR book use imagery or setting to impact the story? They can do all that and have discussions around big questions (e.g., “Who or what determines whose stories get told?”) in the context of their own book. All books have plot, characters, dialogue, literary devices- they’re just applying their knowledge of those things to analyze how they work in their book and to what effect.

I agree that kids should have some choice, but if they write essays about this you would have to be familiar with every single book to be able to evaluate it. I would be disappointed if my junior didn't have any classroom discussions. HS's should read something like On Democracy or other book about societal issues (e.g. environment) and discuss since they will be future voters. I doubt that most teens are able to write as passionately about a book, as they are able to discuss it. To not have a single group required book is a missed opportunity at best.

Not necessarily. If a kid can say “the theme of my book is this” and then back it up with textual support and evidence that they analyze and explain and connect, they have done a typical HS classroom writing task. The cool thing about literature is there doesn’t always have to be one right answer. I might think a theme is A but if someone else thinks it B and can back that up with evidence from the text, they’re not wrong. If I say write a letter to someone in authority about the social issue in your book, I’m assessing their writing skills- I don’t have to know a single thing about that book to know whether their letter was written appropriately, meets the task, etc. There would be tons of opportunity for class discussion and Socratic seminars.

No English class in my school reads On Democracy fwiw. Maybe the history classes do.

I agree that some kids could do this, but could all of the kids? And, what if they missed an important theme? It could be hard to evaluate?

I'm not following how there would be a discussion and Socratic seminar?? If all the books were on say racism, wouldn't kids have to do a lot of explaining (an entire scene or plot) to get their point across if others hadn't read it?

There’s no task worth doing in class that all kids can do at all times. They’re all at different points of learning and have different skills and capabilities. That’s why we work independently with those who need more assistance, differentiate instruction and tasks, and make accommodations as we see fit once know each student’s academic strengths and weaknesses. We endeavor to get them all there, to the best of their capability, at their pace. Which is why one kid’s C can be another’s A.

So, there wouldn't actually be a discussion as you had mentioned? This answer makes me like your plan less. For those who do like reading, they are basically just doing SSR in HS English class and writing some essays (which may or may not have any constructive feedback). Disappointing. There needs to be a mix.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and also, I would never try to have a conversation with a friend about the specific merits of a given article without reading the article. The content, sure — “oh yes, Charles Mann argues that the population of the Americas before Columbus was much larger than we thought” but not “Charles Mann has this beautifully lyrical description of Amazonia...” (I’d immediately go “ooh lemme see.”)

And what if- hear me out- this exact thing happens to kids and they go “wait let me read that” and then they too are doing extra reading just because they were curious.

I mean, great, but you’re making it sound like the best thing that could come out of your class are kids reading on their own, which as the kid who would have preferred to read her own book in the library than go to English class (and whose kid is the same!) makes me wonder why it should be a required course. But that’s cool, I was already pretty sold on a classical curriculum for my kids.

I think you are missing the point. English class is not about reading the book. One can do that on their own. It's about dissecting and discussing the book. You know, critical thinking. That's why it's a required course. It has never been about the reading part.

No, I don't think PP was missing the point. I think OP is missing the point. To OP, the point of English class is to read the book and 'love reading.'

No, the books are actually beside the point which is why I don’t need to control what they pick. The point of English class is to connect with humanity, honor someone else’s voice and lived experience, hone your own writing and voice to tell your story, understand your world.

And we wonder why our kids are woefully undereducated. I always thought English class also included teaching kids to hone reading skills, develop critical thinking and analytical writing....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...what do you do in class when everyone is reading a different book? Granted I was in MS almost twenty years ago at a private school, but as I recall we did a lot of discussing the plot, symbolism, character motivation, close reading, etc. Or is literary analysis now outdated as well? It seems like “read something you love to develop a sense of joy with the written word” is for SSR in elementary school, not middle or HS English class. What’s changed?

(PS: we read Kindred in seventh grade and idk if it counts as a classic but it was great!)

They can still discuss all those in the context of their own book. Track YOUR character’s development. What motivates them? What do their words and choices reveal about them? How does YOUR book use imagery or setting to impact the story? They can do all that and have discussions around big questions (e.g., “Who or what determines whose stories get told?”) in the context of their own book. All books have plot, characters, dialogue, literary devices- they’re just applying their knowledge of those things to analyze how they work in their book and to what effect.

I agree that kids should have some choice, but if they write essays about this you would have to be familiar with every single book to be able to evaluate it. I would be disappointed if my junior didn't have any classroom discussions. HS's should read something like On Democracy or other book about societal issues (e.g. environment) and discuss since they will be future voters. I doubt that most teens are able to write as passionately about a book, as they are able to discuss it. To not have a single group required book is a missed opportunity at best.

Not necessarily. If a kid can say “the theme of my book is this” and then back it up with textual support and evidence that they analyze and explain and connect, they have done a typical HS classroom writing task. The cool thing about literature is there doesn’t always have to be one right answer. I might think a theme is A but if someone else thinks it B and can back that up with evidence from the text, they’re not wrong. If I say write a letter to someone in authority about the social issue in your book, I’m assessing their writing skills- I don’t have to know a single thing about that book to know whether their letter was written appropriately, meets the task, etc. There would be tons of opportunity for class discussion and Socratic seminars.

No English class in my school reads On Democracy fwiw. Maybe the history classes do.

I agree that some kids could do this, but could all of the kids? And, what if they missed an important theme? It could be hard to evaluate?

I'm not following how there would be a discussion and Socratic seminar?? If all the books were on say racism, wouldn't kids have to do a lot of explaining (an entire scene or plot) to get their point across if others hadn't read it?

There’s no task worth doing in class that all kids can do at all times. They’re all at different points of learning and have different skills and capabilities. That’s why we work independently with those who need more assistance, differentiate instruction and tasks, and make accommodations as we see fit once know each student’s academic strengths and weaknesses. We endeavor to get them all there, to the best of their capability, at their pace. Which is why one kid’s C can be another’s A.

So, there wouldn't actually be a discussion as you had mentioned? This answer makes me like your plan less. For those who do like reading, they are basically just doing SSR in HS English class and writing some essays (which may or may not have any constructive feedback). Disappointing. There needs to be a mix.

No, I said there would be class discussion! That is the meat and potatoes of English class! A Socratic seminar is basically when students prepare answers to questions (and create their own) using their text and cite evidence to answer the questions in a discussion. They give their answers, piggyback and ask questions, ask each other to justify their positions. So let’s say the unit was on a social issue. Students whose books dealt with common social issues would have a Socratic on those issues. Or they could round robin and discuss how their book addresses one issue va how another book addressed theirs. Any commonalities? Were any opinions changed? How did it make them question their biases? Students are then asked to reflect on the seminar - how did it go? What was successful or upsetting or illuminating? Whose point was one they hadn’t considered?

There is ALWAYS discussion happening in English class, even if it’s less structured than a Socratic and just a whole class discussion.