Question from a teacher about your kids...

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Oh, and also, I would never try to have a conversation with a friend about the specific merits of a given article without reading the article. The content, sure — “oh yes, Charles Mann argues that the population of the Americas before Columbus was much larger than we thought” but not “Charles Mann has this beautifully lyrical description of Amazonia...” (I’d immediately go “ooh lemme see.”)

And what if- hear me out- this exact thing happens to kids and they go “wait let me read that” and then they too are doing extra reading just because they were curious.

I mean, great, but you’re making it sound like the best thing that could come out of your class are kids reading on their own, which as the kid who would have preferred to read her own book in the library than go to English class (and whose kid is the same!) makes me wonder why it should be a required course. But that’s cool, I was already pretty sold on a classical curriculum for my kids.

I think you are missing the point. English class is not about reading the book. One can do that on their own. It's about dissecting and discussing the book. You know, critical thinking. That's why it's a required course. It has never been about the reading part.

No, I don't think PP was missing the point. I think OP is missing the point. To OP, the point of English class is to read the book and 'love reading.'

No, the books are actually beside the point which is why I don’t need to control what they pick. The point of English class is to connect with humanity, honor someone else’s voice and lived experience, hone your own writing and voice to tell your story, understand your world.

And we wonder why our kids are woefully undereducated. I always thought English class also included teaching kids to hone reading skills, develop critical thinking and analytical writing....

Where did ANY of my comments say those are not the exact things we are doing? They can be done with any book is the ONLY thing I’m saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hi! It’s me, the high school English teacher. Gearing up for another year back. I’m playing around with my curriculum this year and thinking I will do no whole- class texts this year and instead give the kids a genre or general requirement and then have them choose a book within those parameters. So, for instance, if I say a book by a BIPOC author, they can choose any book that interests them as long as it was written by someone who is Black, Indigenous, or otherwise a person of color. All our mini lessons, essential questions, tasks will revolve around that type of book so what they are reading specifically won’t matter- they’ll be able to apply it all to their individual text.

Here’s my question to you: can you tell me honestly if your kid actually read for pleasure this summer and if so, what they read? Don’t be selective about answering only if your kid did, it helps me to know if they didn’t as well. Getting kids to read for pleasure is a huge struggle and I’m tailoring my curriculum to hopefully help them do more of that without the whole “we are going to read this tedious old book from 1945 and beat it to death” thing. It’s a good jumping off point for me to know whether the kids are reading books of their choice when they’re able or if they’re not reading at home either since getting them to think of reading as a valuable pastime they should consider doing for enjoyment is, well, hard.

That's because some people simply don't enjoy reading for pleasure. yes, even very educated people

It's just the way it is. Some people read as a hobby and some don't. You are struggling against something that doesn't need to be fixed.

It's ok to tell kids you need to read a book as an assignment. You already received advise on at least making a list of book choices.

+1 This is DS. Does math for pleasure and many other things, but does not read for pleasure. A chore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To circle back to the point that I should teach TKAM to disabuse students of racism and prejudice - as I’ve stated, I have to weigh the outcome vs. students sitting in my room being traumatized by a story or hearing their peers say very hurtful things that I then correct... but that they still heard. They have to sit and have the humanity of Black people (Tom) justified. It’s hard for me to inflict that on kids I care about.

Beyond that- those are the exact conversations that teachers get in trouble for because parents claim we are calling their kids racists or saying all white people are bad or indoctrinating them or “getting too political.” We really are damned if we do or don’t. I’d encourage you to have those conversations at home as much as possible.

Maybe you should stop worrying about their fragility, and worry about real world issues and the things they've already been exposed to. These kids grew up in a world where mass shootings are commonplace, and forgettable. They aren't snowflakes that will melt if you touch them. They aren't the naive sock-hop going students of the fifties. They have seen, heard, discussed... a lot. A crazier world than you can imagine. They don't know another world. If you're teaching seniors, Sandy Hook happened when they were around 2. If you have freshman they could have been 7. That shooting taught us that in America's eyes, it's ok to shoot a ton of kids. Since then, mass shootings are commonplace and don't invoke change. That's the world these kids are in. You really think a class discussion, (from already disengaged kids, to boot- from how condescending and nasty you are I cannot imagine they are very participatory in your class).... you think that discussion is going to ruin them? You aren't inflicting anything on them but knowledge, depth, insight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To circle back to the point that I should teach TKAM to disabuse students of racism and prejudice - as I’ve stated, I have to weigh the outcome vs. students sitting in my room being traumatized by a story or hearing their peers say very hurtful things that I then correct... but that they still heard. They have to sit and have the humanity of Black people (Tom) justified. It’s hard for me to inflict that on kids I care about.

Beyond that- those are the exact conversations that teachers get in trouble for because parents claim we are calling their kids racists or saying all white people are bad or indoctrinating them or “getting too political.” We really are damned if we do or don’t. I’d encourage you to have those conversations at home as much as possible.

Maybe you should stop worrying about their fragility, and worry about real world issues and the things they've already been exposed to. These kids grew up in a world where mass shootings are commonplace, and forgettable. They aren't snowflakes that will melt if you touch them. They aren't the naive sock-hop going students of the fifties. They have seen, heard, discussed... a lot. A crazier world than you can imagine. They don't know another world. If you're teaching seniors, Sandy Hook happened when they were around 2. If you have freshman they could have been 7. That shooting taught us that in America's eyes, it's ok to shoot a ton of kids. Since then, mass shootings are commonplace and don't invoke change. That's the world these kids are in. You really think a class discussion, (from already disengaged kids, to boot- from how condescending and nasty you are I cannot imagine they are very participatory in your class).... you think that discussion is going to ruin them? You aren't inflicting anything on them but knowledge, depth, insight.

PLEASE tell that to the parents who email me whenever I bring up anything like this. PLEASE. I truly would love for all parents to feel this way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I know you’re being helpful but trust me, I know all this. This (literally) what I’m trained to do and have advanced degrees in.

Fellow teacher here. If you know all this and are literally trained to do this with advanced degrees then why ask? You asked for input based on their individual children. She is telling you her feedback based on her child's education experience. No need to be rude.

I’m not being rude! I asked did their kids read and if so, what they did. I don’t need someone telling me there’s crossover books (like how would I not know this?) don’t make the kids take notes. I don’t do that.

DP here- You are, though. Her kid reads crossover books. She was suggesting them. And clearly plenty of English teachers do make their students take notes while reading, so how was she supposed to know that you don't? You didn't share your lesson plans or education philosophy or anything. She's telling you what their experience has been. If you're this condescending and patronizing to your students, no wonder they refuse to engage in your class.

Also I would bet money that you are within your first 5 years teaching, and either Teach for America, or some other SJW white woman.

Who said my kids don’t engage in my class? They absolutely do. wanting to teach them better doesn’t mean they’re not engaged. Asking their parents, the people who know them best, for insight into how they read at home, is a huge part in understanding how to teach them better.

Weird also you think giving your students choice instead of forcing Steinbeck on them = SJW. It’s just seeing the kids as humans with interests of their own.

DP- Why are you being so incredibly defensive? You asked for input, what our kids read and don't read, etc. But if anyone tries to give you honest feedback, you are going off on tangents about POC and being forcefed racism.

Some takeaways I have saved from a literacy conference this summer (I'm a reading specialist in a VA high school)...

It’s a good jumping off point for me to know whether the kids are reading books of their choice when they’re able or if they’re not reading at home either since getting them to think of reading as a valuable pastime they should consider doing for enjoyment is, well, hard.

"To Kill a Mockingbird” is a revolutionary novel which exposed the large glaring fault of racism in our society in the 1960s. This novel is now more relevant than ever with our country still dealing with segregation and discrimination, but it has managed to survive hidden under the radar. Students should be trusted to read this novel, understand its intricacies and the historical importance of racism, because of the tremendous effect it has had on our society as a whole.

Why do you not have any faith in your students of color?

To Kill A Mockingbird is about discrimination – racial, economic and the fear of the unknown. It is about a child’s coming of age as she learns this lesson. Yes, the book depicts racism; it does not promote it or ignore it. As all literary works depict conflict, it would be impossible to suggest that we avoid any literary work that portrays evil. The true learning behind teaching literature comes from the study and discussion of these profound issues. To Kill A Mockingbird teaches the value of empathy and understanding differences. The novel offers excellent learning opportunities such as discussion, role-playing, and historical research, allowing students to delve into these issues and appreciate them and the work itself.

The historical context of the novel is crucial, as the book not only introduces teenagers to the problems of the past, but also leads them to make connections to the world in which they live today, making this decades-old work very relevant. Even the objectionable language decried by some is an excellent “teachable moment” and a chance to talk about why language evolves over time. Having an open and honest discussion about this is essential in understanding the context and providing an atmosphere of respect and trust.

An argument against the book is that students may feel uncomfortable with the topic. Obviously, we want our students to feel respected and physically safe. But it is becoming a disturbing trend, even in post-secondary education, to avoid issues that will provoke reactions. It is only by discussing these issues and reacting to emotions in a safe classroom environment, among students of different racial groups, and with a teacher’s leadership, that students will learn from the work itself, and from each other, and be able to make sense of such issues in a complex world.

You are so obsessed with pointing out "that's how things used to be taught" or how "recent research says xyz." That's great, but you also cannot force the concept of loving reading to kids. You can, however, prepare them for this world. Prepare them that sometimes tasks aren't 100% enjoyable, but bring great value - challenges bring growth.

You are incredibly patronizing and contemptuous. I encourage you to reflect upon this before berating a group of high schoolers and letting them somehow earn high school English credit when they read Twilight or The Hate U Give or The Fault in our Stars for an entire year. Your obligation is not only to "make them love reading" but to teach them, history is part of learning, context matters, language matters, literature is relevant in all aspects of the world. Maybe you don't do enough reading of these 'classics' to understand.

I think PP didn’t read The Hate U Give if she thinks history isn’t a part of it.
—DP

[Anonymous]

Just chiming in to say this teaching method was a subject in a chick-lit book I just read: The Overdue Life of Amy Byler.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just chiming in to say this teaching method was a subject in a chick-lit book I just read: The Overdue Life of Amy Byler.

Did the parents in that book hate it too? LOL

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:pp and teen has read so far in addition to required reading:
Death on the Nile
The Song of Achilles
Tom Sawyer
Never Caught: The Washington's Relentless Pursuit of Their Runaway Slave

Would you recommend this? I have to buy a book for a humanities magnet student to start this week.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Oh, and also, I would never try to have a conversation with a friend about the specific merits of a given article without reading the article. The content, sure — “oh yes, Charles Mann argues that the population of the Americas before Columbus was much larger than we thought” but not “Charles Mann has this beautifully lyrical description of Amazonia...” (I’d immediately go “ooh lemme see.”)

And what if- hear me out- this exact thing happens to kids and they go “wait let me read that” and then they too are doing extra reading just because they were curious.

I mean, great, but you’re making it sound like the best thing that could come out of your class are kids reading on their own, which as the kid who would have preferred to read her own book in the library than go to English class (and whose kid is the same!) makes me wonder why it should be a required course. But that’s cool, I was already pretty sold on a classical curriculum for my kids.

I think you are missing the point. English class is not about reading the book. One can do that on their own. It's about dissecting and discussing the book. You know, critical thinking. That's why it's a required course. It has never been about the reading part.

No, I don't think PP was missing the point. I think OP is missing the point. To OP, the point of English class is to read the book and 'love reading.'

No, the books are actually beside the point which is why I don’t need to control what they pick. The point of English class is to connect with humanity, honor someone else’s voice and lived experience, hone your own writing and voice to tell your story, understand your world.

And we wonder why our kids are woefully undereducated. I always thought English class also included teaching kids to hone reading skills, develop critical thinking and analytical writing....

Where did ANY of my comments say those are not the exact things we are doing? They can be done with any book is the ONLY thing I’m saying.

First, your list of the "point of English class" included none of those things. Also, those things cannot be taught effectively with books that are too easy, so no, they can't be done with any book. You are unwittingly contributing to the dumbing down of the kids you teach. Take a step back from your pride and consider some of the comments you've received. There are kids who will choose the easiest book possible every time. You will do those kids a huge disservice if you don't proactively also challenge them with harder books. There are many books that are basic, and many with layers that you need to really think critically to unpack. Kids need exposure to the latter and it's a part of your job to provide that exposure. I don't care if you select the "classics," you just can't sit back and never have them exposed to books that are challenging to them because you chose to let them just do whatever they like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To circle back to the point that I should teach TKAM to disabuse students of racism and prejudice - as I’ve stated, I have to weigh the outcome vs. students sitting in my room being traumatized by a story or hearing their peers say very hurtful things that I then correct... but that they still heard. They have to sit and have the humanity of Black people (Tom) justified. It’s hard for me to inflict that on kids I care about.

Beyond that- those are the exact conversations that teachers get in trouble for because parents claim we are calling their kids racists or saying all white people are bad or indoctrinating them or “getting too political.” We really are damned if we do or don’t. I’d encourage you to have those conversations at home as much as possible.

Oh my. This is a shame. I hope other teachers don’t follow your lead. Good intentions, but so much is being lost in this model, as so many have pointed out. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Why can't their be a suggested list to choose from BUT if the kid wants to deviate from that, they have to propose a) the book, b) how it meets the teaching objective for the unit/assignment? This would seem to meet the needs of people who are demanding required reading and kids who have strong preferences as to what they want to read.

I'm a voracious reader. Even i had a LOT of trouble with "assigned" reading in school. It had nothing with comprehension but I just hated the books - i couldn't relate to them, they weren't interesting . . . and it makes it hard to like a class and to like reading in that instance.

I'm no teacher. So this may not be a good "method" but it seems reasonable. Plus, it give control to the student and forces them to really think about a book that deviates from the list.


My two cents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To circle back to the point that I should teach TKAM to disabuse students of racism and prejudice - as I’ve stated, I have to weigh the outcome vs. students sitting in my room being traumatized by a story or hearing their peers say very hurtful things that I then correct... but that they still heard. They have to sit and have the humanity of Black people (Tom) justified. It’s hard for me to inflict that on kids I care about.

Beyond that- those are the exact conversations that teachers get in trouble for because parents claim we are calling their kids racists or saying all white people are bad or indoctrinating them or “getting too political.” We really are damned if we do or don’t. I’d encourage you to have those conversations at home as much as possible.

Oh my. This is a shame. I hope other teachers don’t follow your lead. Good intentions, but so much is being lost in this model, as so many have pointed out. Good luck.

The people in this thread don’t even trust me to do my job in the most basic way (like you really think we don’t have discussions or do anything in class if I let them pick books and I’ve spent 8 pages justifying I do know how to teach better than people who aren’t teachers) yet you mean to suggest you expect me to have these conversations with your kids? That doesn’t make sense. There’s no trust between parents and teachers that allows for those conversations to be productive. In theory, they should be in classes. In reality, the parents always get upset and email us / admin to stop being political or insinuating their personal beliefs are bad.

[Anonymous]

While I am no fan of OP's classroom model, my 10th grader who's taking challenge math, science and social studies classes would be thrilled to have a class where he can coast by selecting easy books that he "loves." He'd have more time to engage in his other classes that require more depth. He'd be happy to have OP as a teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why can't their be a suggested list to choose from BUT if the kid wants to deviate from that, they have to propose a) the book, b) how it meets the teaching objective for the unit/assignment? This would seem to meet the needs of people who are demanding required reading and kids who have strong preferences as to what they want to read.

I'm a voracious reader. Even i had a LOT of trouble with "assigned" reading in school. It had nothing with comprehension but I just hated the books - i couldn't relate to them, they weren't interesting . . . and it makes it hard to like a class and to like reading in that instance.

I'm no teacher. So this may not be a good "method" but it seems reasonable. Plus, it give control to the student and forces them to really think about a book that deviates from the list.


My two cents.

I wonder if these parents asked their kids how they felt about this what they would hear. The PARENTS want “classic” required reading. But I teach kids and the kids... usually don’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...what do you do in class when everyone is reading a different book? Granted I was in MS almost twenty years ago at a private school, but as I recall we did a lot of discussing the plot, symbolism, character motivation, close reading, etc. Or is literary analysis now outdated as well? It seems like “read something you love to develop a sense of joy with the written word” is for SSR in elementary school, not middle or HS English class. What’s changed?

(PS: we read Kindred in seventh grade and idk if it counts as a classic but it was great!)

They can still discuss all those in the context of their own book. Track YOUR character’s development. What motivates them? What do their words and choices reveal about them? How does YOUR book use imagery or setting to impact the story? They can do all that and have discussions around big questions (e.g., “Who or what determines whose stories get told?”) in the context of their own book. All books have plot, characters, dialogue, literary devices- they’re just applying their knowledge of those things to analyze how they work in their book and to what effect.

This sounds like a bunch of new age crap. You should do a whole class novel first to teach them how to do this. Then maybe a unit with choice.