Question for parents of black children in Montgomery County.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please allow me to start by saying that I have no skin in this game, as my kids are long out of school. I don't want to make this about one school in particular, but I feel the need to clarify some inaccuracies.

I am a realtor located in Bethesda and I search for homes for parents of school aged children every single day. I get to know these families over time, as I live in the neighborhood that their home search is usually in. That being said, I happen to agree with the previous poster who said that Walter Johnson's makeup is not even close to being the same as the other two "W" schools & they shouldn't be lumped together (especially since Walter Johnson has never had incidents of racism occur that both Walt Whitman & Winston Churchill has).

Good, reasonable post.

We live in the Whitman district and quite close to where the WJ district starts. It's indeed a housing thing. The area around Whitman just isn't zoned for apartment housing, but it was never designed to be anyway. The lot size and neighborhoods were made for SFHs. I guess the "great reputation" of Whitman means people were willing to bid up the SFH's, and you don't see that as much at the SFHs in the WJ district like those that feed to Ashburton.

But I don't think this is MCPS'es problem. They can't change zoning codes, and I'm not sure how the county would either. You just can't really throw up a townhouse development of apartment building in the existing neighborhoods. First, there's no greenfield (empty lots) land so you'd have to tear down a few adjacent houses, and I just don't see that being feasible, even if zoning were approved.

I guess I don't mind it, but of course I'm heavily biased since I live here. As long as people are aware of the downsides to living in Whitman over WJ, they can make the decision what works best for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:African Americans in Montgomery County are being displaced by hispanics in areas that used to have more AA residents. They are moving into PG and Howard.

True. Also true that many who stay, especially the parents of boys, are choosing privates or homeschooling.

[Anonymous]

Gaithersburg High School prides itself in its diversity and takes inclusion very seriously. Avoid Damascus. Their boys love to call our boys the n word. (Obviously not all of them but this has gone on forever.) 3 good elementary schools that feed into GHS are Goshen, Laytonsville, and Strawberry Knoll. Can't say I know much about the others. Of the 2 middle schools, I don't really find one to be superior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please allow me to start by saying that I have no skin in this game, as my kids are long out of school. I don't want to make this about one school in particular, but I feel the need to clarify some inaccuracies.

I am a realtor located in Bethesda and I search for homes for parents of school aged children every single day. I get to know these families over time, as I live in the neighborhood that their home search is usually in. That being said, I happen to agree with the previous poster who said that Walter Johnson's makeup is not even close to being the same as the other two "W" schools & they shouldn't be lumped together (especially since Walter Johnson has never had incidents of racism occur that both Walt Whitman & Winston Churchill has).

I interact with these folks and their families day in and day out. I see them as they're walking their dogs, as I'm watering my flowers, as they ride their bikes in the neighborhood, while playing basketball at Stratton Park, pet sitting for a neighbor, etc. & believe it or not, they actually come in all different colors, shades, races, religions, cultures & sizes.

Walter Johnson is situated smack dab in the middle of a neighborly, working class community that's filled with hard workers. It's very family oriented & they teach their children important family history & values. International Night at Ashburton is my favorite night of the year, as we have representation from almost every country in the world. The authentic clothing, food, history & intricate details are so lovely & insightful.

I see teens that go to Walter Johnson posting on NextDoor every single day offering their services to babysit, mow lawns, rake leaves, wash cars, etc. I see them lifeguarding at my pool, working in the mall, working at Giant, etc.

There is a nice mix of diversity throughout all of the Walter Johnson schools, as so many folks who come to this country to work for places like NIH, usually settle in the Walter Johnson district. Same for those who've worked for Walter Reed or the Bethesda Navy Exchange... it's a very inclusive community.

Additionally, there is a great deal of affordable housing in the Walter Johnson district, including (but not limited to) all of the apartment towers & townhomes off of Grosvenor Lane/Rockville Pike, Tuckerman Lane, Pooks Hill Rd, as well as next to Montgomery Mall.

As a realtor, I can tell you that Walter Johnson's neighborhoods are far more diverse & affordable than Walt Whitman or Winston Churchill, as both of those schools have zero to no affordable apartment housing, and the average home priced in both Whitman & Churchill are immensely higher than the average home in Walter Johnson.

I realize that what I'm saying may sound silly to those of you who don't "know" Bethesda and only know of it from these boards.

However, the easiest comparison I can make would be that Walt Whitman and Winston Churchill are considered very wealthy communities, where as Walter Johnson is usually considered middle / upper middle class folks. I don't know why I felt the need to clarify this, I just did... my apologies.

In my humble opinion, I do not believe that any of Bethesda's schools are far superior to the other schools in the rest of the county, I mean doesn't every single school in MCPS follow the same exact curriculum no matter which school you attend?

There are brilliant kids in EVERY single school in MCPS and there are also kids who struggle greatly in EVERY single school in MCPS.
I think what it comes down to is that it's not strictly our choice of schools that influence our kids, but a combination of things. It's also our choice of communities, neighbors, familial bonds & inner strength and fortitude that leave a lasting impression on our children.

If you had to recommend a cluster to an AA middle class family that you had a real relationship with. Not just a client or acquaintance, but someone who would have to interact with socially for years afterwards, where would you recommend?

Have you ever regretted recommending a neighborhood to family due to the school having a lot of racial incidents later?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Good, reasonable post.

We live in the Whitman district and quite close to where the WJ district starts. It's indeed a housing thing. The area around Whitman just isn't zoned for apartment housing, but it was never designed to be anyway. The lot size and neighborhoods were made for SFHs. I guess the "great reputation" of Whitman means people were willing to bid up the SFH's, and you don't see that as much at the SFHs in the WJ district like those that feed to Ashburton.

But I don't think this is MCPS'es problem. They can't change zoning codes, and I'm not sure how the county would either. You just can't really throw up a townhouse development of apartment building in the existing neighborhoods. First, there's no greenfield (empty lots) land so you'd have to tear down a few adjacent houses, and I just don't see that being feasible, even if zoning were approved.

I guess I don't mind it, but of course I'm heavily biased since I live here. As long as people are aware of the downsides to living in Whitman over WJ, they can make the decision what works best for them.

By allowing duplexes and triplexes to be built by right.

You have surely noticed a lot of single-family-detached houses being torn down to be replaced by (much) larger single-family-detached houses. It would work exactly like that, only people would be allowed to replace the single-family-detached houses with duplexes or triplexes.

And yes, it definitely is MCPS's problem, even if MCPS didn't cause it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Good, reasonable post.

We live in the Whitman district and quite close to where the WJ district starts. It's indeed a housing thing. The area around Whitman just isn't zoned for apartment housing, but it was never designed to be anyway. The lot size and neighborhoods were made for SFHs. I guess the "great reputation" of Whitman means people were willing to bid up the SFH's, and you don't see that as much at the SFHs in the WJ district like those that feed to Ashburton.

But I don't think this is MCPS'es problem. They can't change zoning codes, and I'm not sure how the county would either. You just can't really throw up a townhouse development of apartment building in the existing neighborhoods. First, there's no greenfield (empty lots) land so you'd have to tear down a few adjacent houses, and I just don't see that being feasible, even if zoning were approved.

I guess I don't mind it, but of course I'm heavily biased since I live here. As long as people are aware of the downsides to living in Whitman over WJ, they can make the decision what works best for them.

By allowing duplexes and triplexes to be built by right.

You have surely noticed a lot of single-family-detached houses being torn down to be replaced by (much) larger single-family-detached houses. It would work exactly like that, only people would be allowed to replace the single-family-detached houses with duplexes or triplexes.

And yes, it definitely is MCPS's problem, even if MCPS didn't cause it.

I certainly know about tear-downs -- that's about half my street right now. But I dont' see how duplexes would work well. The builders can't go any closer to the street, so the addition square footage is mostly by building 4 finished levels (3 + basement) and going a little more out the back. The footprint of the building itself doesn't vary by that much. I guess you're saying make 2 narrow townhouse-style places instead? I guess that could work, though my instinct is that even those would end up way outside the realm of "afforable housing". Heck, I know just the land on most lots in my neighborhood is valued at around $1mln.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
A black person would NEVER say that there isn't racism and classism at TPMS and Blair. In our experience, it is very bad at these schools, especially classism. The white parents are very tone deaf. Its like the people who think they are not racially biased because they voted for Obama but cross the street if they see a few black teenagers walking in their direction.


My AA kids attended TPMS and one attended Blair. We also have roughly 10 other friends who had kids at those schools. No school in MCPS is free of racism and classism. However, in comparison to WJ, Whitman, Clarksburg, Damascus, and Magruder, it is MUCH less widespread at TPMS and Blair. And the admins take it much more seriously. Northwood seems to be ok, but the AA families I know who sent their kids there were MCPS insiders. I think Paint Branch is another non-W school that is a safer choice for an AA middle class family, but the feeder middles are not as strong as TPMS. I don’t know as much about Blake or QO.

How would you know what racism or classism is like at Magruder, WJ, Clarksburg, etc when you never attended any of these schools? The well its bad here but it must be worse in the other schools is a bit of a fantasy excuse to accept what you are dealing with in your own school.

[Anonymous]

Duplexes work by building two attached units on the lot, instead of one detached unit.

Would they be "affordable housing"? No. But each unit would be cheaper than if there were only the one enormous house, and it would give two households the opportunity to live in the neighborhood instead of only one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:African Americans in Montgomery County are being displaced by hispanics in areas that used to have more AA residents. They are moving into PG and Howard.

True. Also true that many who stay, especially the parents of boys, are choosing privates or homeschooling.

Define *many*. There are thousands of African American students. You know of a handful who might do this, and that means "many"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
African Americans in Montgomery County are being displaced by hispanics in areas that used to have more AA residents. They are moving into PG and Howard.


True. Also true that many who stay, especially the parents of boys, are choosing privates or homeschooling.


Define *many*. There are thousands of African American students. You know of a handful who might do this, and that means "many"?

Actually there was a Montgomery County planning study or report done that had interesting maps and data about different races and SES groups moving around in Montgomery County over the past 20 years. It was done by the county not MCPS so it covered all ages not just students. The AA population is getting pushed out of areas where more hispanic residents are moving in.

Within the schools the AA and hispanic kids do not mix. White people may lump them all together but they are very different communities. This is a growing problem for AAs within Montgomery County.

[Anonymous]

People sure do like to generalize.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The AA population is getting pushed out of areas where more hispanic residents are moving in.

Why is this happening? Is Hispanic buying power greater and they can out-bid AA buyers? It seems like the usual solution is "affordable housing" but wont' people of any race go for those?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
African Americans in Montgomery County are being displaced by hispanics in areas that used to have more AA residents. They are moving into PG and Howard.


True. Also true that many who stay, especially the parents of boys, are choosing privates or homeschooling.


Define *many*. There are thousands of African American students. You know of a handful who might do this, and that means "many"?

Actually there was a Montgomery County planning study or report done that had interesting maps and data about different races and SES groups moving around in Montgomery County over the past 20 years. It was done by the county not MCPS so it covered all ages not just students. The AA population is getting pushed out of areas where more hispanic residents are moving in.

Within the schools the AA and hispanic kids do not mix. White people may lump them all together but they are very different communities. This is a growing problem for AAs within Montgomery County.

This country is great because we can have different cultures coexisting and respecting each other. Why do they have to mix? As long as they respect each other, I don't see a problem there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
African Americans in Montgomery County are being displaced by hispanics in areas that used to have more AA residents. They are moving into PG and Howard.


True. Also true that many who stay, especially the parents of boys, are choosing privates or homeschooling.


Define *many*. There are thousands of African American students. You know of a handful who might do this, and that means "many"?

Actually there was a Montgomery County planning study or report done that had interesting maps and data about different races and SES groups moving around in Montgomery County over the past 20 years. It was done by the county not MCPS so it covered all ages not just students. The AA population is getting pushed out of areas where more hispanic residents are moving in.

Within the schools the AA and hispanic kids do not mix. White people may lump them all together but they are very different communities. This is a growing problem for AAs within Montgomery County.

Can you link that? From looking at the Maryland Report Card demographic trends for some schools where that *might* be true, what I see is AA student population holding steady and Hispanic increasing. This does not suggest displacement so much as new housing going in, and it being taken predominantly by Hispanic families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Quite frankly: they have teachers and Principals who know that the wealthy and educated parents want academic rigor and are prepared to pressure them for it.

It all boils down to INCOME, people, and that should be obvious. Wealthy areas have parents who as a group, care deeply about education as a means to success. Therefore, they will meet, call, and email staff about the curriculum, the amount and quality of homework, school-provided enrichment, PTA-funded enrichment, math competitions, after-school clubs of all types, etc. They will tutor their children in the core subjects, and enroll them in academic activities after school. They will pay for music lessons, chess clubs, robotics, programming, which all contribute to better critical thinking skills. The teachers at school have more time to take care of some students with issues, because there are fewer of them, and can also elevate the class standard because less remedial work is necessary as a whole.

It adds up and in total, it makes for higher quality learning experience.

I said Bethesda, but I also want to include some parts of Potomac and North Bethesda, where a larger Asian population lives, and where schools are also competitive. There is also Chevy Chase, which is wealthy and educated.

Oh, we're back to the "unlike people with less money, people with lots of money care deeply about their children's education" thing.

You forgot the part about how it's okay to discriminate against people who don't have a lot of money.

You love to accuse people of discrimination in order to undermine their arguments. However, the consequences of socio-economics on education outcomes is very real. I know parents living all over MCPS, and obviously they all care about their child's education. But not in the same way. The ones who have more income and are professionally in a position to wield influence, find it very easy to apply pressure to their children's school, because they do that in other areas of their lives. The ones who are lower on the socio-economic scale don't automatically think of making an appointment with the teacher or principal and insist on changes, or running for PTA President or another position on the board. When you have an entire neighborhood who is very vocal about their children's education, and another neighborhood who isn't, you'll agree that the two schools will end up, over time, with very different educational standards. Those are facts. They are neither right nor wrong. They just are.