are social skills playgroups

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So there's no need to create this false dichotomy between floortime and social skills groups. And, good Lord, those of us who send our children to these groups are not deluded or wrong. My son would not be nearly as successful as he is now without those groups.

There is no dichotomy being created between floortime and social skills training. But the dichotomy that I am creating between social skills training (that usually involve dicrete behavior training or rote memorization) and those social skills groups that do not do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Second, I don't understand this idea of social skills groups using rote memorization. We've used several over the years and none of them used rote memorization. I can't imagine why any group would. When DS was younger, his groups specifically used floortime.

Please publish here the names of the social skills groups you used that did nto rely on any rote memorization or any discrete behavior training because it would be very valuable information.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So there's no need to create this false dichotomy between floortime and social skills groups. And, good Lord, those of us who send our children to these groups are not deluded or wrong. My son would not be nearly as successful as he is now without those groups.

There is no dichotomy being created between floortime and social skills training. But the dichotomy that I am creating between social skills training (that usually involve dicrete behavior training or rote memorization) and those social skills groups that do not do that.

I think the reason your child needs social skills training is because he's had too much exposure to your influence. Does he also not know when to shut up because nobody wants him around?

[Anonymous]

20:35 poster again. I find Greenspan's antipathy toward the ASD diagnosis very, very difficult to support. It comes from his original theory that parents should NEVER be told that their child has an ASD (he absolutely used to take this approach) because they will "lower expectations" for their child. He has softened a bit on this, but only a bit. I find this idea to be (1) incredibly patronizing. Its as if he's saying "you can't handle the truth." Aren't we grownups, and can't we use the proper name for things?, and (2) only increases the feeling of shame around the diagnosis of an ASD. As I said, my son is 10 years old. He knows he has an ASD, it helps him understand who he is, but he also doesn't feel weighed down by his diagnosis. I want my child to grow up with a sense of pride in himself and I have the same "expectations" for my autistic son as I do for my NT child. This isn't a "horror" diagnosis to us -- it is my son.

As I said, I am a Greenspan booster. I believe he is a visionary, but a flawed visionary. First, he shares the same rigidity as our Greenspan fanatic here. One thing most parents of children with disabilities eventually learn is that raising our children is not a linear path. We have to constantly make adjustments, and what works for my child may not work for yours. Approaches have to be melded and adjusted. Second I believe his approach of beating parents over the head until they spend 8 hours a day doing floortime is terribly misguided. First, it is simply unrealistic for most parents, leaving them with a sense of guilt. Second, it distorts the parent-child relationship. I am not my son's therapist, I am his mother, and treating him as my patient or client means that my ability to provide the emotional sustenance he needs (not to mention my own energy level) is diminished. I have watched other children in therapy land grow up and the ones whose mothers (generally its the moms) turned them into their project and devoted every aspect of their lives to them, have either burned out and/or deprived their children of the kind of general nurturing all children need. Not to mention the pressure they put on their child to demonstrate the success of all that hard work.

I resent the way Greenspan fanatic treats me and others here like we are ignorant. I understand everything you are saying. I have been submerged in all of the theories of treating kids with developmental disabilities since before your child was born. And I have raised a son -- so far -- who is kind, funny, does well in school and has a lot of friends and also happens to be autistic.

I hope your rigidity doesn't prevent you from making changes along the way if things need to be adjusted for your child. You are convinced you have all the answers and the rest of us are somehow too stupid to appreciate it. Honestly, I don't care what you think. I've had a nice afternoon playing board games with my family (including my son with an ASD) and now we will get ready for Thanksgiving. Typical family stuff.

[Anonymous]

Well said and very insightful! Thank you! We, too, have had a wonderful Thanksgiving and on your note, I'm leaving this thread and the fantatic.

[Anonymous]

20:35 again. I have met ABA boosters who are similarly rigid about that approach. They also say the studies ONLY support ABA, and any parent not doing ABA is failing their child. In those conversations I was always defending floortime. But the level of fanaticism and self-righteousness is the same. This always amazes me because I've found having a child with a disability is actually a humbling experience. I don't know everything. I am always learning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:20:35 poster again. I find Greenspan's antipathy toward the ASD diagnosis very, very difficult to support. It comes from his original theory that parents should NEVER be told that their child has an ASD (he absolutely used to take this approach) because they will "lower expectations" for their child. He has softened a bit on this, but only a bit. I find this idea to be (1) incredibly patronizing. Its as if he's saying "you can't handle the truth." Aren't we grownups, and can't we use the proper name for things?, and (2) only increases the feeling of shame around the diagnosis of an ASD. As I said, my son is 10 years old. He knows he has an ASD, it helps him understand who he is, but he also doesn't feel weighed down by his diagnosis. I want my child to grow up with a sense of pride in himself and I have the same "expectations" for my autistic son as I do for my NT child. This isn't a "horror" diagnosis to us -- it is my son. Well I think it's wonderful that you would never consider it a horror dx, but many parents used to think it was. It's still a very scary experience for many to have your child be dx with any disorder really. Many parents do become paralyzed with fear initially. And with the horrible media coverage that ASD has received, many parents might feel terrified and feel that there's little change they can effect with an ASD dx. If you knew this was incorrect because you've treated ASD patients yourself, and if you know that children might be shortchanged with the incorrect assumptions and myths floating around, wouldn't you feel antipathy with such a dx too?

Greenspan says ASD children can, through lots of therapy, feel empathy, relatedness, and interact. The challenge that seems harder with ASD children is that they have a harder time putting their feelings into words, communicating their feelings. This is one big difference between ASD children and reg disorders btw. I'm getting off track here, but as it is, few parents do exactly as much therapy as Greenspan recommends, because admittedly he expects a lot. When faced with an ASD dx, some do even less, believing it's too hard to effect significant change. But Greenspan is not a liar with his patients. If they ask for the truth, they will get it. Besides, he's written a couple articles in which he shows how he distinguishes ASD from regulatory disorders. They are really eye opening articles. I provided the links for them already here. He is fairly reputable in this area. He worked with the CDC to provide guidelines for the medical community for detecting autism (and other dev issues) in children as young as 6 months or even earlier. They jointly came out with a list of criteria so that dx can be made very early and intervention can begin earlier.

As I said, I am a Greenspan booster. I believe he is a visionary, but a flawed visionary. First, he shares the same rigidity as our Greenspan fanatic here. One thing most parents of children with disabilities eventually learn is that raising our children is not a linear path. We have to constantly make adjustments, and what works for my child may not work for yours. Approaches have to be melded and adjusted. Second I believe his approach of beating parents over the head until they spend 8 hours a day doing floortime is terribly misguided. First, it is simply unrealistic for most parents, leaving them with a sense of guilt. Second, it distorts the parent-child relationship. I am not my son's therapist, I am his mother, and treating him as my patient or client means that my ability to provide the emotional sustenance he needs (not to mention my own energy level) is diminished. I have watched other children in therapy land grow up and the ones whose mothers (generally its the moms) turned them into their project and devoted every aspect of their lives to them, have either burned out and/or deprived their children of the kind of general nurturing all children need. Not to mention the pressure they put on their child to demonstrate the success of all that hard work.

I resent the way Greenspan fanatic treats me and others here like we are ignorant. I understand everything you are saying. I have been submerged in all of the theories of treating kids with developmental disabilities since before your child was born. And I have raised a son -- so far -- who is kind, funny, does well in school and has a lot of friends and also happens to be autistic.

I hope your rigidity doesn't prevent you from making changes along the way if things need to be adjusted for your child. You are convinced you have all the answers and the rest of us are somehow too stupid to appreciate it. Honestly, I don't care what you think. I've had a nice afternoon playing board games with my family (including my son with an ASD) and now we will get ready for Thanksgiving. Typical family stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:20:35 poster again. As I said, I am a Greenspan booster. I believe he is a visionary, but a flawed visionary. First, he shares the same rigidity as our Greenspan fanatic here. One thing most parents of children with disabilities eventually learn is that raising our children is not a linear path. We have to constantly make adjustments, and what works for my child may not work for yours. Approaches have to be melded and adjusted. Second I believe his approach of beating parents over the head until they spend 8 hours a day doing floortime is terribly misguided. First, it is simply unrealistic for most parents, leaving them with a sense of guilt. Second, it distorts the parent-child relationship. I am not my son's therapist, I am his mother, and treating him as my patient or client means that my ability to provide the emotional sustenance he needs (not to mention my own energy level) is diminished. I have watched other children in therapy land grow up and the ones whose mothers (generally its the moms) turned them into their project and devoted every aspect of their lives to them, have either burned out and/or deprived their children of the kind of general nurturing all children need. Not to mention the pressure they put on their child to demonstrate the success of all that hard work.

Have you read the book "The Irreducible Needs of Children." I read this a while back but I want to say this is the book he wrote with T. Berry Brazelton. In this book both he and Brazeton share their views on what it takes to raise healthy children. There are clear differences between the two heavy hitters. Brazelton is persuaded by the reality of the times, working parents, limited family time, etc..etc..Greenspan isn't. Greenspan is an idealist for the sake of children. He generally provides an ideal treatment plan - but ideal for the children, not necessarily the parent. Its up to the parent to determine what they can and will do after that. he isn't an ogre. He always used to tell me, "Do as much as you can do." Why hate him because he provides a treatment plan that is ideal for our kids and not ideal for us. He's a child psychiatrist, thats what he's supposed to do. Now as far as distorting the child-parent relationship, I have the opposite view and, I'm not certain, but I think so does Greenspan. I think a child feels more intimacy and closeness with no other human being in the world than his parents (of course in some cases it's other caregivers, but generally speaking). Who better than the parent to, gently but peristently, have the ability to bring their child into the rich world of relatedness, intimacy, interactiveness and to share with them joy and warmth and smiles? But when I was totally exhausted with all of my other responsibilities, Greenspan again wasn't an ogre. He asked me, "Can you hire a high school student to come play with your child for two hours a day or as often as possible?" So clearly he is not forcing only parents into the role of therapist if he's okay with a 16 yr old kid to do floortime with my child too. Greenspan also told me that DH and I should have date nights at least once a week. So he is keenly aware that the lives of parents of special needs kid is hard, for sure.

I resent the way Greenspan fanatic treats me and others here like we are ignorant. I understand everything you are saying. I have been submerged in all of the theories of treating kids with developmental disabilities since before your child was born. And I have raised a son -- so far -- who is kind, funny, does well in school and has a lot of friends and also happens to be autistic.

I hope your rigidity doesn't prevent you from making changes along the way if things need to be adjusted for your child. You are convinced you have all the answers and the rest of us are somehow too stupid to appreciate it. Honestly, I don't care what you think. I've had a nice afternoon playing board games with my family (including my son with an ASD) and now we will get ready for Thanksgiving. Typical family stuff.

[Anonymous]

Greenspan-gaga woman:

You need to hear this. Your over-reliance on a single source suggests serious problems for your child (obviously) but for YOU as well.

Honey, what psychological help have you availed yourself of? Because it isn't enough. In addition to either anti-anxiety or anti-depression medications, you could probably benefit from one-on-one counseling.

[Anonymous]

20:35 again. No, it isn't Ok to even assume parents don't know how to handle this information. If the doctor has a diagnosis in his mind for my child, I shouldn't have to fish for it. If a parent thinks they can't help their child, then the doctor should set him or her straight. But withholding something this profound because he assumes they can't handle it is just wrong.

There was a time when people with cancer weren't told their diagnosis. As a cancer survivor myself, I find that unbelievable. Yeah, it wasn't easy to hear my ds has an ASD, but I couldn't know him for who he is without that information. Not even a close call in my book.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:20:35 poster again. I resent the way Greenspan fanatic treats me and others here like we are ignorant. I understand everything you are saying. I have been submerged in all of the theories of treating kids with developmental disabilities since before your child was born. And I have raised a son -- so far -- who is kind, funny, does well in school and has a lot of friends and also happens to be autistic. I hope your rigidity doesn't prevent you from making changes along the way if things need to be adjusted for your child. You are convinced you have all the answers and the rest of us are somehow too stupid to appreciate it. Honestly, I don't care what you think. I've had a nice afternoon playing board games with my family (including my son with an ASD) and now we will get ready for Thanksgiving. Typical family stuff.

My computer isn't working well here so I'm responding in shorter, separate posts. Sometimes when people are so overly confidant, so firmly set on their own different path, so sure of their unique choice, I understand that at best it may be annoying and at worst it may be perceived as arrogance or insensitive, because it alienates them or makes some feel stupid about their own choices. And inevitably when somebody decides to tread a new path, away from the crowd, some are sure to take that as a negative reflection on them or of their choices. But please keep in mind that these are not my personal ideas, they are the theories of Dr. Stanley Greenspan. And honestly, it's fine if you don't care what I think. You don't have to care what everybody on DCUM thinks.

You mentioned that your child has been in social skills groups that do not involve any discrete behavior training or rote memorization. Can you mention where and which those are?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:20:35 again. No, it isn't Ok to even assume parents don't know how to handle this information. If the doctor has a diagnosis in his mind for my child, I shouldn't have to fish for it. If a parent thinks they can't help their child, then the doctor should set him or her straight. But withholding something this profound because he assumes they can't handle it is just wrong.

There was a time when people with cancer weren't told their diagnosis. As a cancer survivor myself, I find that unbelievable. Yeah, it wasn't easy to hear my ds has an ASD, but I couldn't know him for who he is without that information. Not even a close call in my book.

Are you saying that Greenspan withheld a child's true diagnosis from the parents when they were ASD? Who do you know has he done that do?

[Anonymous]

20:35, I know you don't agree with me. I don't appreciate being called Greenspan-fanatic but it's not as vicious and mean-spirited as the others on here have been. Just wanted to say I appreciate, at least, that you are willing to argue this issue intelligently with me rather than making personal attacks.

[Anonymous]

Greenspan woman,

Did you actually have a Thanksgiving with your family, or spent the entire day on here going on, and on, and on?

Do you notice any support for your behavior on this thread?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:20:35 poster again. I resent the way Greenspan fanatic treats me and others here like we are ignorant. I understand everything you are saying. I have been submerged in all of the theories of treating kids with developmental disabilities since before your child was born. And I have raised a son -- so far -- who is kind, funny, does well in school and has a lot of friends and also happens to be autistic. I hope your rigidity doesn't prevent you from making changes along the way if things need to be adjusted for your child. You are convinced you have all the answers and the rest of us are somehow too stupid to appreciate it. Honestly, I don't care what you think. I've had a nice afternoon playing board games with my family (including my son with an ASD) and now we will get ready for Thanksgiving. Typical family stuff.

My computer isn't working well here so I'm responding in shorter, separate posts. Sometimes when people are so overly confidant, so firmly set on their own different path, so sure of their unique choice, I understand that at best it may be annoying and at worst it may be perceived as arrogance or insensitive, because it alienates them or makes some feel stupid about their own choices. And inevitably when somebody decides to tread a new path, away from the crowd, some are sure to take that as a negative reflection on them or of their choices. But please keep in mind that these are not my personal ideas, they are the theories of Dr. Stanley Greenspan. And honestly, it's fine if you don't care what I think. You don't have to care what everybody on DCUM thinks.

You mentioned that your child has been in social skills groups that do not involve any discrete behavior training or rote memorization. Can you mention where and which those are?

Oh no! UGLY: you're trying to shift the burden of proof. Tch tch tch...