s/o - feeling "poor" at these ludicrously high incomes. what are they actually missing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do they want? I think that is pretty clear: they want it ALL. The 1.25-2 mil house. The 85k car (x2 and maybe a fun convertible for a third that they only take out on weekends). They want a second home at the beach. They want to be able to spend 50k on travel every year. They want to be able to drop 200-300 at dinner once a week (plus babysitter). They want the 110k CC membership plus ongoing dues and related fees. They want to pay for private school for 2-3 children. They want to save at least $1k a month per kid for college. In addition, they'll want $100k extra for general savings. I can keep good by here. This is where all their money goes.

Fwiw we have this lifestyle (minus private school) with three kids at an income of ~ 750k.

fwiw, we have a HHI of $1.8m and that is NOT our life style
2 kids in public
one house - $700K
one Lexus with 105K miles and one toyota with 56K miles
$150 gym membership

Splurge ....??? We love our steakhouse dinners - 1 per month $150
and we vacation a lot - maybe around $40K with this summer being our first to Europe as a family.

We have a $1.1m HHI that may grow to $1.5m next year.

Our kids also attend public school. We live in a $1m home. We have a $500 pool membership to the local pool club. Our splurge is travel. Probably spend $20-50k on travel per year depending on the year.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think it's because people don't "count" having a nanny, and a $800k house, and outsourcing as their luxuries.

The $600k poster was a really good example of that, how she explained away "well we have to have a nanny since our work hours are so long and we don't have family" and justifies the student loan at $1k "because one of us is a lawyer."

Not realizing that some people would HAVE to move close to family, not a choice to have a nanny, or put their child in a high ratio daycare that is cheap but has extended hours and add an hour to their daily commute to get there, or even be up to date on their student loans without having a parent bail them out, get on a deferred payment plan, etc.

And having 2 cars instead of getting a small condo, kids share a room, and take metro.

They look at their money AFTER doing all those things.

That's the problem.

I strongly agree with this post. The people complaining about being poor on six figure incomes are confused about why they're not rolling in cash after paying expensive mortgage (most poor people don't own houses), paying for their expensive childcare (most poor people do not pay $2k+ month in childcare), paying off their grad/law/med school student loans (most poor people do not go to grad/law/medical school), and paying their grocery bills at Whole Foods.

I also find the "$300k is middle class" argument disingenuous because posters who say "owning a home, going to college, taking vacations, etc. are middle class activities" often fail to recognize that owning a $700,000 house is not middle class, going to Yale is not middle class, and flying 4 people to Disney for a week is not middle class.

I sympathize with the rich people problems. It would be nice if we all had enough money to pay for the things that we want. But there's a world of difference between choosing which utility bill to pay this month and choosing whether to go to Disney this summer or this winter.

WTF? That is certainly middle class now and was middle class 30 years ago. My parents were certainly middle class and we went to Disney a few times. They owned a nice house (no mansion, but no dump), and sent two kids off to private universities (one Ivy). We had some student loans but mostly paid for by my parents.

Yeah, going to Disney is totes middle class.

np. I'd say going to Disney once, maybe twice in a childhood is middle class, and that often involves a big, extended family vacation with grandparents helping to foot the bill for everyone, possibly staying offsite, saving for a couple years.

"Doing Disney" pretty regularly and wringing your hands about the commercialization and inauthenticity (but assuaging your angst by ensuring that your kids also get to European museums), staying at monorail resorts, etc., etc., is NOT middle class.

I know two teacher households that go regularly. Are you saying they aren't middle class? Your definition of "middle class" is f'ed up.

A two-teacher household (I think that's what you mean; hyphens are important) is in the lower regions of upper-middle class.

WTF?!

And and we getting that granular? Lower-upper-middle class?

In terms of lifestyle and expectation I think there are really only three categories: poor, middle class, rich

Two teacher household is upper middle class??? That is crazy...

Disney vacation is by definition middle class vacation; yes you can upper class it with resorts or private character lunches or what not, but flying to freaking Orlando and going to Disney??

As for $700k house? That is disingenuous: housing costs have far out stripped income, so $700k gets you middle class housing if you want ok schools and not extreme commute. It's not like it can buy you a mansion on an acre unless you are in WV. Median sale price for Fairfax is $500k and that includes condos/townhouses.

Housing is the real problem here; prices way out of whack with incomes.

Np here and I really think you're out of touch with the rest of the country. Even in this area you absolutely don't need a $700k house to get "ok schools." In most of the country two teachers are much better off than the average household. You need to travel more, both inside and outside the DC area. Your baseline is wildly off.

Ok, find me a $600k SFH within 15 miles of downtown DC with GS schools of 7 from elem - high school

A plumber makes more than two-teacher households; really a lot of trades have solidly middle class lives. I grew up in a small southern town, and 30 year career teachers make like $40k, so two teachers make $80k after 30 years. It's a good life, summers off and all, but not upper middle class. They all had second jobs like working retail in the summer to make ends meet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because people don't "count" having a nanny, and a $800k house, and outsourcing as their luxuries.

The $600k poster was a really good example of that, how she explained away "well we have to have a nanny since our work hours are so long and we don't have family" and justifies the student loan at $1k "because one of us is a lawyer."

Not realizing that some people would HAVE to move close to family, not a choice to have a nanny, or put their child in a high ratio daycare that is cheap but has extended hours and add an hour to their daily commute to get there, or even be up to date on their student loans without having a parent bail them out, get on a deferred payment plan, etc.

And having 2 cars instead of getting a small condo, kids share a room, and take metro.

They look at their money AFTER doing all those things.

That's the problem.

I strongly agree with this post. The people complaining about being poor on six figure incomes are confused about why they're not rolling in cash after paying expensive mortgage (most poor people don't own houses), paying for their expensive childcare (most poor people do not pay $2k+ month in childcare), paying off their grad/law/med school student loans (most poor people do not go to grad/law/medical school), and paying their grocery bills at Whole Foods.

I also find the "$300k is middle class" argument disingenuous because posters who say "owning a home, going to college, taking vacations, etc. are middle class activities" often fail to recognize that owning a $700,000 house is not middle class, going to Yale is not middle class, and flying 4 people to Disney for a week is not middle class.

I sympathize with the rich people problems. It would be nice if we all had enough money to pay for the things that we want. But there's a world of difference between choosing which utility bill to pay this month and choosing whether to go to Disney this summer or this winter.

WTF? That is certainly middle class now and was middle class 30 years ago. My parents were certainly middle class and we went to Disney a few times. They owned a nice house (no mansion, but no dump), and sent two kids off to private universities (one Ivy). We had some student loans but mostly paid for by my parents.

Yeah, going to Disney is totes middle class.

np. I'd say going to Disney once, maybe twice in a childhood is middle class, and that often involves a big, extended family vacation with grandparents helping to foot the bill for everyone, possibly staying offsite, saving for a couple years.

"Doing Disney" pretty regularly and wringing your hands about the commercialization and inauthenticity (but assuaging your angst by ensuring that your kids also get to European museums), staying at monorail resorts, etc., etc., is NOT middle class.

+1. We went to Orlando/Disney twice growing up and stayed off the resort. The rest of our vacations involved road trips to the closest amusement park while staying in budget hotels and trips to visit family - once again via car. No intl travel. For college, we both went to state schools (ivy tuition on my parent's salaries? )- I had a scholarship so stayed on campus but my brother commuted from home the first 2 years. We were solidly middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree PP - our HHI is 145$ and we live comfortably in NWDC. I can't buy every thing I want, and we go on one simple beach vacation a year. I cook dinner every night and we don't eat out often. Our cars are 12 and 6 years old subarus with no plans for new ones in sight. My kids wear hand me downs and clothes from Target. My husband and I pack lunch for work. I am a teacher so my hours make it so we don't need aftercare or camp.

I certainly don't feel poor. I feel fortunate. If you're always looking at what you DON'T have, you won't be happy.

mon
pp, do you own your place?
We don't and with a similar income, we are barely able to afford a 1-bedroom.
Household utilities, car insurance, car payments and groceries adds up to more than $4000 per month.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:comparisons and expectations, of course.

they're not poor, but they don't have everything they want or expect. we have a hhi of around 200k, usually plus an annual bonus, debt of around 400k (mostly mortgage and some remaining student loans) and I would never be so clueless as to call myself "poor". I am not.

Sometimes I struggle, however. with two incomes and kids, time is the most precious resource of all and its one of those things you can't really buy, at least not directly. so, we struggle to piece together bits of time and make tradeoffs that I never really would have expected at my income level. (outsource house cleaning instead of having FIOS; never buy coffee or lunch so that I have $100 or so to stick in a college account every month; get groceries delivered, but stop buying organic or name brand; cancel beach house this summer so that we can get the AC fixed; keep my 6yo phone with the busted screen because buying a new one is crazy expensive; keep the shitty 30-yo washer/dryer that smells a bit and get repaired once/year because we had to get the car fixed; get Christmas presents for the kids, not for each other; kids live in hand-me-downs from their cousins; we're going to need a new car sometime in the next few years and I'm not sure what budget that is coming out of yet.) The consequences for me of such tradeoffs are obviously minor. No one's going without healthcare or food or housing. So, no, people like me should never describe themselves as "poor." Doesn't mean we never get to complain.

Doesn't sound much like rich to me though.

this fits within my definition of "upper middle" in DC. but that same income outside an expensive metropolitan area would land one comfortably in the "upper" class without the need for those kinds of tradeoffs. (Think Richmond, Charlotte, perhaps Raleigh) Because real estate and child care are SO MUCH cheaper there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do they want? I think that is pretty clear: they want it ALL. The 1.25-2 mil house. The 85k car (x2 and maybe a fun convertible for a third that they only take out on weekends). They want a second home at the beach. They want to be able to spend 50k on travel every year. They want to be able to drop 200-300 at dinner once a week (plus babysitter). They want the 110k CC membership plus ongoing dues and related fees. They want to pay for private school for 2-3 children. They want to save at least $1k a month per kid for college. In addition, they'll want $100k extra for general savings. I can keep good by here. This is where all their money goes.

Fwiw we have this lifestyle (minus private school) with three kids at an income of ~ 750k.

fwiw, we have a HHI of $1.8m and that is NOT our life style
2 kids in public
one house - $700K
one Lexus with 105K miles and one toyota with 56K miles
$150 gym membership

Splurge ....??? We love our steakhouse dinners - 1 per month $150
and we vacation a lot - maybe around $40K with this summer being our first to Europe as a family.

We have a $1.1m HHI that may grow to $1.5m next year.

Our kids also attend public school. We live in a $1m home. We have a $500 pool membership to the local pool club. Our splurge is travel. Probably spend $20-50k on travel per year depending on the year.

I mean, I guess it's posts like this that leave people earning $300k or $600k feeling like they are barely scraping by.

[Anonymous]

What are they missing? ~ they want to be free from worry. Not happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What are they missing? ~ they want to be free from worry. Not happening.

Maybe that's it.

[Anonymous]

Ok, I get it now! That poster from a few posts up explained to me that everyone must live in a single family home within 15 miles of DC with great schools ratings from 7 and up. So by creating these very specific requirements, she was able to PROVE that anyone making less than $300k is simply unable to get by.

Not everyone in the area who is happy and successful lives in a single family home within 15 miles of DC with a great schools rating of 7 and up.

(Writing from a paid-off $500k house 10 miles from DC with schools rated 7/7/5)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's because they don't understand how math works. They buy a bunch of expensive stuff, like paying a nanny's salary or a 4-5k mortgage, and then don't understand why there isn't enough "left over." YOU BOUGHT A LOT OF EXPENSIVE THINGS, LIKE A RICH PERSON. Maybe really rich people feel poor after they pay out their household staffs and buy yachts and see that there isn't much "left over."

You sound very jealous and very ignorant. I'm sure you're leading a happy life.

Not PP, but that sounds right. Regardless of HHI, if you overspend, you're going to feel poor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok, I get it now! That poster from a few posts up explained to me that everyone must live in a single family home within 15 miles of DC with great schools ratings from 7 and up. So by creating these very specific requirements, she was able to PROVE that anyone making less than $300k is simply unable to get by.

Not everyone in the area who is happy and successful lives in a single family home within 15 miles of DC with a great schools rating of 7 and up.

(Writing from a paid-off $500k house 10 miles from DC with schools rated 7/7/5)

How did you afford private high school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Happiness does not come from material things. It is an emotional state and we as humans get emotional satisfaction from relationships and feeling of self-worth. This culture does not lend to deep emotional relationships. When we cannot love or care enough to put someone else above us, then we cannot help but be self-centered. All negative feelings comes from being self-centered because there will be always someone who is better off than us in something. Its like measuring how fulfilling your life is by seeing the FB posts of others.

Ok but let's be real. Money and material things don't bring you happiness in themselves but they do give you pretty close approximations: comfort (this is big), security (also big), time savings, leisure, travel, entertainment, excitement, better education and enrichment for your kids. It's not bad to want these things. Just try not to be tacky when focusing on what you don't have.

I am not disputing that. Maslow's hierarchy of needs tells you that your most basic needs are those of meeting your physiological and safety needs. You need money and resources for that. But once those needs are met, people still have the needs for relationships, friendships and self -esteem. When we are so much a part of the rat race that we cannot take out the time for human connections and for having a real sense of self worth and pride in our humanity - then we will be unhappy. At that point more material things do not meet our physiological and security needs. They just add clutter in our lives.

I am not even touching on the loftiest need of self-actualization. I am talking about most of us being dissatisfied because we do not have the genuine deep connections that we crave, because we are so wrapped up in trying to get more material things for ourselves.

[Anonymous]

I think middle class should start at 100k.

It sounds outrageous but if we are to keep with what middle class has meant traditionally here and around the Western world (home ownership with good schools, 1 or 2 cars, a vacation every year, savings, college and not living paycheck to pay check) then we should start at 100k. And very often, especially if you live in a higher COL, you won't feel terribly comfortable on that.

People make less and do OK but it is by living very frugally.

What we will see if we use that threshold is that most people are not middle class and, frankly, I think that accurately describes where we're at & the despair/disappointment many Americans feel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm perplexed about the status of private schools.
Private schools (except for the elite ones like Exter or Hotchkiss) were usually filled with the quirky kids whose parents thought couldn't handle it in public.

I have been trying to figure this out as well.....that is where I think the people that claim to make so much money in this area goes.

Also, there is houses under 500K in the DC area, you just have to look. Schools have changed a lot since my day, but I have enough friends that are teachers and the fundamentals haven't changed one bit. I grew up in a house that was under 2,000 sq ft with one sibling and it worked out just fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do they want? I think that is pretty clear: they want it ALL. The 1.25-2 mil house. The 85k car (x2 and maybe a fun convertible for a third that they only take out on weekends). They want a second home at the beach. They want to be able to spend 50k on travel every year. They want to be able to drop 200-300 at dinner once a week (plus babysitter). They want the 110k CC membership plus ongoing dues and related fees. They want to pay for private school for 2-3 children. They want to save at least $1k a month per kid for college. In addition, they'll want $100k extra for general savings. I can keep good by here. This is where all their money goes.

Fwiw we have this lifestyle (minus private school) with three kids at an income of ~ 750k.

fwiw, we have a HHI of $1.8m and that is NOT our life style
2 kids in public
one house - $700K
one Lexus with 105K miles and one toyota with 56K miles
$150 gym membership

Splurge ....??? We love our steakhouse dinners - 1 per month $150
and we vacation a lot - maybe around $40K with this summer being our first to Europe as a family.

We have a $1.1m HHI that may grow to $1.5m next year.

Our kids also attend public school. We live in a $1m home. We have a $500 pool membership to the local pool club. Our splurge is travel. Probably spend $20-50k on travel per year depending on the year.

$1.1 mil straight salary (no bonus)? Doing what? This is DC, not NYC where you can make that kind of money on Wall Street.