s/o - feeling "poor" at these ludicrously high incomes. what are they actually missing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it comes down to the fact that most people who make $300-400K have two parents working. (ourselves included).
Having two parents navigating the 9-5 slog around DC plus taking care of young children (or school aged kids which personally I have found harder with two working parents) is a never-ending grind.
There's a feeling of, "there has to be more to life than this".
I love my job (this is not a SAH vs. WOTH debate) but it's pretty crazy to plan the logistics of having both spouses working. I feel like all we do is work, commute (and we live close enough that one spouse bikes), and take care
of the kids. Lather, rinse and repeat daily.

Sometime I wish we at least had fabulous vacations or gorgeous furniture for all of our effort.

OP again - this feels like it's maybe getting at what seems to underlie some of it. This sense that people are just exhausted. And with the exhaustion comes a feeling of deep dissatisfaction - which gets projected onto expensive things, maybe?

[Anonymous]

I don't think there's anything wrong with people having different standards than you. People who work harder than average, stayed in school longer than average, and work longer hours than average to make more money do expect a certain standard of living.

It can be a surprise to learn that in places like DC and NYC, not even 300k gets you a truly lavish lifestyle. The trappings that you worked for (yes, worked for!) are harder to get and harder to keep than they were for your parents' generation and it stinks.

The income needed to attain what was once considered the upper middle class dream is more like upper class tier money. That is what OP of that thread meant and I think you know that, but your class envy is getting in the way.

Using your logic, not even the poor in DC are truly poor because there are Bangladeshis poorer than them. And the Bangladeshis had better not complain because there are Syrians poorer and being hunted as we speak.

[Anonymous]

The more you have, the more you spend.

As a previous poster said, when you have two parents working jobs that require long hours/commutes, you have daycare/aftercare payments, two cars to pay for and maintain, you eat out more, you outsource cleaning and yard work and such. These become "necessities" in order for you to live the life that you want--working hard and enjoying your family. Not necessities on the same level as "food on the table and hot water" but necessities nonetheless based on your lot in life. Because, why work hard to make $300k/year if you are going to spend all of your free time cooking/cleaning and never have quality time w/your family?

Also, most people who make high incomes have a lot of education. That means a combo of a) student loans and b) college savings plans for their children (as education is a top priority in their family).

Adding that all up, you feel poor, because most of your $300k salary is spoken for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's that as you move into different circles you become aware of additional things to desire/covet. Growing up, I never knew anyone with a beach house so it never occurred to me that I was missing out. But now that I know people who have them, I wonder if my kids are missing out because we don't.

Same with super-expensive sleep away camps, a boat, etc. The list of things to desire just gets bigger.

Also, we took music lessons with the little old lady around the corner growing up. But we found a serious teacher for our kid, which eventually moved to the world of expensive summer music camps, more expensive instruments, etc. That is probably the same with sports, etc. You grew up playing games in the neighborhood and now you know people who have three year olds taking private swimming lessons.

Also, I think a lot of is stems from the cut-throat competitive atmosphere. Kids who don't take private lessons don't get into the orchestra at your high school; kids who don't take private lessons don't make the baseball team; you worry that your kids can't compete with the kids who have had math tutoring beginning in first grade and you start to panic that it's not just that you're being stupid and spoiled but that your child is being actively left behind compared to the people who appear ot have unlimited resources to spend on their children.

This is really true too. At our NW DC elementary 95% of the kids went to a top preschool and comes from a super educated household and started playing soccer/t-ball at age 4 and began taking piano lessons at age 5 or 6.
The kids who stand out and actually make the middle school team all played travel sports beginning at age 9. The really good ones started private lessons at age 9. It's just the way it is. I'm sure once in a while a true athletic or musical
prodigy comes along but by in large, the kids getting the team spots, orchestra seats, etc. are those with a ton of money being thrown at them from an early age. The baseline for parenting here is really high. To excel (even enough to get a spot on a school roster) you have
to really, really invest a TON (mostly in money since pretty much all of this is hired out).

[Anonymous]

They are missing basic but dyer skills and buy too much house.

[Anonymous]

It's because they don't understand how math works. They buy a bunch of expensive stuff, like paying a nanny's salary or a 4-5k mortgage, and then don't understand why there isn't enough "left over." YOU BOUGHT A LOT OF EXPENSIVE THINGS, LIKE A RICH PERSON. Maybe really rich people feel poor after they pay out their household staffs and buy yachts and see that there isn't much "left over."

[Anonymous]

Because these people are spending 75 percent of their 300k plus salary on childcare, taxes and housing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's because they don't understand how math works. They buy a bunch of expensive stuff, like paying a nanny's salary or a 4-5k mortgage, and then don't understand why there isn't enough "left over." YOU BOUGHT A LOT OF EXPENSIVE THINGS, LIKE A RICH PERSON. Maybe really rich people feel poor after they pay out their household staffs and buy yachts and see that there isn't much "left over."

You sound very jealous and very ignorant. I'm sure you're leading a happy life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's that simple. Lots of people in this area are not from here and are not from any competitive market like SF or NYC or even NJ or Mass. So they think by making it to DC and making 300k, they have ARRIVED. Then they look around and realize there are people making 400k, 500k, 1 million etc. They look around at the Jones and realize that at 300k, they may have to think about private school and it's no fair that their friends making 500k have to give zero thought to whether to enroll their 3 kids in private school.

And then they look back home to Wisconsin or Arkansas or wherever and realize that it's no fair that their old high school classmates -- who weren't even class valedictorian and weren't ivy bound land are grads of the local non flagship u are making 150k in sales and living in a McMansion style house with 2 brand new cars, whereas they HAVE ARRIVED in DC but "only" have a 700k brick home from the 1960s to show for it.

I haven't seen the same insecurity from people coming from say Long Island or NJ or the Bay Area bc they are used to be around A LOT of money and are also from competitive places so they never expected that they would be "the one" in their group of peers who'd be the success.

There may be some of this, but these HCOL coastal cities aren't the only places where people make high salaries. My parents are MDs in "flyover country", and they easily pull in a 7 figure HHI.

What I've noticed on DCUM is that people have a skewed perception of "rich", that seems to look more like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" (i.e. .1%). They don't think that having a house in a good part of town, maybe paying for private school and/or a nanny, having cars that work, having a savings, and having enough discretionary income to not have to worry too much about what/where they eat makes them UMC or even "rich" by most definitions. What's funny is that growing up in a LCOL area with parents who had a 7 figure income, that's more or less the lifestyle we lived...and I was very aware that we were rich. The additional things we did was have luxury cars, take international trips (we didn't necessarily stay in 5 star hotels, though, and those trips were typically to my parents' country of origin), and not stress about extra curricular activity spending. My parents were also able to pay full price for college for all of us. We still mostly shopped sales and discount stores/outlets.

I think another thing people miss is how much on the edge some people live, even with high incomes. My parents, especially my dad, are pretty conservative when it comes to savings. It's actually to the point where we sometimes wonder why he works so hard, given that all of his kids also earn good livings so we aren't depending on an inheritance from him (and he's not the type of parent to let us live off of a trust fund while he's alive). But a very good friend of his died relatively young (late 60s), after receiving an aggressive cancer diagnosis. My dad helped his wife sort out the financial details. It was clear that despite his friend also being a doctor who lived in the same part of town and spent, if anything, a bit more than my parents while certainly earning less on a single income, he hadn't planned his future as well. His wife who was a SAHM for 40+ years had to sell their house and start working again. I asked my dad the state of their mortgage, and he told me he had paid it off early around the time they turned 60 so there would be nothing for us to worry about whenever the time comes.

I think if people accept that rich means having a lot of choice in how you get the basics plus some variable amount of extra, then they would be a lot happier. Most MC people don't have a ton of choices and they do worry about how they are going to get the basics. Remember "Roseanne"? That's MC. Not sending your kids to one of the best public schools, affording a nanny, and having a car that's less than 10 years old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it comes down to the fact that most people who make $300-400K have two parents working. (ourselves included).
Having two parents navigating the 9-5 slog around DC plus taking care of young children (or school aged kids which personally I have found harder with two working parents) is a never-ending grind.
There's a feeling of, "there has to be more to life than this".
I love my job (this is not a SAH vs. WOTH debate) but it's pretty crazy to plan the logistics of having both spouses working. I feel like all we do is work, commute (and we live close enough that one spouse bikes), and take care
of the kids. Lather, rinse and repeat daily.

Sometime I wish we at least had fabulous vacations or gorgeous furniture for all of our effort.

It's exactly this. Most of these $300k stretched posters are dual income with income parity -- so both parents need to work to make basic living expenses (even a cheap $500k house is hard to swing on $150k).

The slog of dual working parents, commuting, min 40 hours week, and all that takes a lot of logistics and money.

And I think PP is right that most of these folks are the strivers from small towns: but what she misses is that these folks are smart and know how to work hard, but don't have a clue how to make money (so don't necessarily gun for the right partner track early on) nor can take the risk for starting a business or such -- no family money to fall back on. They meet a similar striver and start a family (bc the women from NYC and Bay Area know how to spot the future high earners and pass the Midwest striver by), and suddenly are on this hamster wheel making ten times what their parents did in small town America but having a much worse quality of life. They thought if they do what they love and work hard, they would come out ahead, but now are stuck.

And yeah, hometown sales guy is living like a king, that is so so true.

[Anonymous]

When DH and I were both working, our HHI was 300K, and we had outsourced house cleaning,yard work and child care. Now, I SAH, my DH makes 300K and we still have cleaning and yardwork help. My entire family feels that our quality of life is better now. We have leisure time and we actually pursue hobbies and activities that interest us. The constant rat race is gone. I feel 300K is a very high HHI for our family. We live in a large SFH with all comforts in an inexpensive suburban area, and our kids go to magnet schools. So we are not being crushed by absurd mortgage or the cost of private schools. We did not have college debt and we are making sure that our kids do not incur debts. So, if you are not trying to keep up with the Joneses, then 300K is a lot of money and you can have savings and a good lifestyle without being frugal.

[Anonymous]

We have a HHI of $300k and do spend most of it on childcare, taxes, and housing + maintenance for that house and yard.

I would NEVER say I feel poor, or even pinched because we made the choices we paid and knew the costs (having kids, buying a big house with a huge yard). That said, kids and a big house in this area can eat up a big, luxurious income pretty quickly. But both DW and I are from expensive places, so we went into this life with eyes wide open and no sticker shock.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The more you have, the more you spend.

As a previous poster said, when you have two parents working jobs that require long hours/commutes, you have daycare/aftercare payments, two cars to pay for and maintain, you eat out more, you outsource cleaning and yard work and such. These become "necessities" in order for you to live the life that you want--working hard and enjoying your family. Not necessities on the same level as "food on the table and hot water" but necessities nonetheless based on your lot in life. Because, why work hard to make $300k/year if you are going to spend all of your free time cooking/cleaning and never have quality time w/your family?

Also, most people who make high incomes have a lot of education. That means a combo of a) student loans and b) college savings plans for their children (as education is a top priority in their family).

Adding that all up, you feel poor, because most of your $300k salary is spoken for.

There are many people who work long hours (sometimes multiple jobs) who spend all of their free time cooking/cleaning and don't have quality time with their family. The fact that a small number of people have the educations and connections, to earn $300K which affords them the luxuries of eating out and spending time with their families is what makes them rich.

This is not jealousy or sour grapes, BTW. We have a solid UMC -> rich HHI, much of which was enabled by a great start to life and education from each of our parents who are also UMC -> rich. Our DD's nanny works her butt off and recently became an adoptive parent. We pay her well by any standard, but she is much more in the realm of worrying about rent, food, healthcare costs. She earns about median local income working for us (so she's MC).

We don't roll around in swimming pools of money or go on frequent extravagant international vacations, but we're also not dumb enough to think we are "poor" or just squeaking by. Two relatively new cars may seem like a "necessity" for us, but they are also a luxury that many two income households cannot afford.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's that simple. Lots of people in this area are not from here and are not from any competitive market like SF or NYC or even NJ or Mass. So they think by making it to DC and making 300k, they have ARRIVED. Then they look around and realize there are people making 400k, 500k, 1 million etc. They look around at the Jones and realize that at 300k, they may have to think about private school and it's no fair that their friends making 500k have to give zero thought to whether to enroll their 3 kids in private school.

And then they look back home to Wisconsin or Arkansas or wherever and realize that it's no fair that their old high school classmates -- who weren't even class valedictorian and weren't ivy bound land are grads of the local non flagship u are making 150k in sales and living in a McMansion style house with 2 brand new cars, whereas they HAVE ARRIVED in DC but "only" have a 700k brick home from the 1960s to show for it.

I haven't seen the same insecurity from people coming from say Long Island or NJ or the Bay Area bc they are used to be around A LOT of money and are also from competitive places so they never expected that they would be "the one" in their group of peers who'd be the success.

There may be some of this, but these HCOL coastal cities aren't the only places where people make high salaries. My parents are MDs in "flyover country", and they easily pull in a 7 figure HHI.

What I've noticed on DCUM is that people have a skewed perception of "rich", that seems to look more like "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" (i.e. .1%). They don't think that having a house in a good part of town, maybe paying for private school and/or a nanny, having cars that work, having a savings, and having enough discretionary income to not have to worry too much about what/where they eat makes them UMC or even "rich" by most definitions. What's funny is that growing up in a LCOL area with parents who had a 7 figure income, that's more or less the lifestyle we lived...and I was very aware that we were rich. The additional things we did was have luxury cars, take international trips (we didn't necessarily stay in 5 star hotels, though, and those trips were typically to my parents' country of origin), and not stress about extra curricular activity spending. My parents were also able to pay full price for college for all of us. We still mostly shopped sales and discount stores/outlets.

I think another thing people miss is how much on the edge some people live, even with high incomes. My parents, especially my dad, are pretty conservative when it comes to savings. It's actually to the point where we sometimes wonder why he works so hard, given that all of his kids also earn good livings so we aren't depending on an inheritance from him (and he's not the type of parent to let us live off of a trust fund while he's alive). But a very good friend of his died relatively young (late 60s), after receiving an aggressive cancer diagnosis. My dad helped his wife sort out the financial details. It was clear that despite his friend also being a doctor who lived in the same part of town and spent, if anything, a bit more than my parents while certainly earning less on a single income, he hadn't planned his future as well. His wife who was a SAHM for 40+ years had to sell their house and start working again. I asked my dad the state of their mortgage, and he told me he had paid it off early around the time they turned 60 so there would be nothing for us to worry about whenever the time comes.

I think if people accept that rich means having a lot of choice in how you get the basics plus some variable amount of extra, then they would be a lot happier. Most MC people don't have a ton of choices and they do worry about how they are going to get the basics. Remember "Roseanne"? That's MC. Not sending your kids to one of the best public schools, affording a nanny, and having a car that's less than 10 years old.

No Roseanne was decidedly working class.

https://medium.com/@abbymnorman/how-roseanne-proved-love-good-parenting-has-nothing-to-do-with-socioeconomic-class-c2f1cb48cc4d#.q0x1lzpc3

Middle class means having good public schools, newer cars, two week paid vacations, health insurance, and money left over to save for college.

At least, it used to, during the time when Rosanne was in the air.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Exactly -- they're not poor, they're over extended often (but not always) and have fallen into the -- but I'm a doctor/lawyer/banker, I SHOULD live close-in; live in a mansion; send kids to private school; take 2 vacations a yr [or whatever other financial want they believe they MUST do bc as a doctor/lawyer, it's only fitting].

Totally agree.

Put yourself around people who make a little less than you and you will feel wealthy! Also, take yourself away from the malls and the mindset that your belongings = your value. Focus more on experiences and less on consumption. Have less -- do MORE!