s/o - feeling "poor" at these ludicrously high incomes. what are they actually missing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because people don't "count" having a nanny, and a $800k house, and outsourcing as their luxuries.

The $600k poster was a really good example of that, how she explained away "well we have to have a nanny since our work hours are so long and we don't have family" and justifies the student loan at $1k "because one of us is a lawyer."

Not realizing that some people would HAVE to move close to family, not a choice to have a nanny, or put their child in a high ratio daycare that is cheap but has extended hours and add an hour to their daily commute to get there, or even be up to date on their student loans without having a parent bail them out, get on a deferred payment plan, etc.

And having 2 cars instead of getting a small condo, kids share a room, and take metro.

They look at their money AFTER doing all those things.

That's the problem.

I strongly agree with this post. The people complaining about being poor on six figure incomes are confused about why they're not rolling in cash after paying expensive mortgage (most poor people don't own houses), paying for their expensive childcare (most poor people do not pay $2k+ month in childcare), paying off their grad/law/med school student loans (most poor people do not go to grad/law/medical school), and paying their grocery bills at Whole Foods.

I also find the "$300k is middle class" argument disingenuous because posters who say "owning a home, going to college, taking vacations, etc. are middle class activities" often fail to recognize that owning a $700,000 house is not middle class, going to Yale is not middle class, and flying 4 people to Disney for a week is not middle class.

I sympathize with the rich people problems. It would be nice if we all had enough money to pay for the things that we want. But there's a world of difference between choosing which utility bill to pay this month and choosing whether to go to Disney this summer or this winter.

WTF? That is certainly middle class now and was middle class 30 years ago. My parents were certainly middle class and we went to Disney a few times. They owned a nice house (no mansion, but no dump), and sent two kids off to private universities (one Ivy). We had some student loans but mostly paid for by my parents.

Yeah, going to Disney is totes middle class.

Disney is definition of middle class, isn't it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because people don't "count" having a nanny, and a $800k house, and outsourcing as their luxuries.

The $600k poster was a really good example of that, how she explained away "well we have to have a nanny since our work hours are so long and we don't have family" and justifies the student loan at $1k "because one of us is a lawyer."

Not realizing that some people would HAVE to move close to family, not a choice to have a nanny, or put their child in a high ratio daycare that is cheap but has extended hours and add an hour to their daily commute to get there, or even be up to date on their student loans without having a parent bail them out, get on a deferred payment plan, etc.

And having 2 cars instead of getting a small condo, kids share a room, and take metro.

They look at their money AFTER doing all those things.

That's the problem.

I strongly agree with this post. The people complaining about being poor on six figure incomes are confused about why they're not rolling in cash after paying expensive mortgage (most poor people don't own houses), paying for their expensive childcare (most poor people do not pay $2k+ month in childcare), paying off their grad/law/med school student loans (most poor people do not go to grad/law/medical school), and paying their grocery bills at Whole Foods.

I also find the "$300k is middle class" argument disingenuous because posters who say "owning a home, going to college, taking vacations, etc. are middle class activities" often fail to recognize that owning a $700,000 house is not middle class, going to Yale is not middle class, and flying 4 people to Disney for a week is not middle class.

I sympathize with the rich people problems. It would be nice if we all had enough money to pay for the things that we want. But there's a world of difference between choosing which utility bill to pay this month and choosing whether to go to Disney this summer or this winter.

WTF? That is certainly middle class now and was middle class 30 years ago. My parents were certainly middle class and we went to Disney a few times. They owned a nice house (no mansion, but no dump), and sent two kids off to private universities (one Ivy). We had some student loans but mostly paid for by my parents.

Yeah, going to Disney is totes middle class.

np. I'd say going to Disney once, maybe twice in a childhood is middle class, and that often involves a big, extended family vacation with grandparents helping to foot the bill for everyone, possibly staying offsite, saving for a couple years.

"Doing Disney" pretty regularly and wringing your hands about the commercialization and inauthenticity (but assuaging your angst by ensuring that your kids also get to European museums), staying at monorail resorts, etc., etc., is NOT middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A humbling day spent volunteering around people or animals in need is long due, but will probably not occur.

Not sure that changes anything. Sure there may be a day or a week or 2 that these types of people feel thankful for what they have. And then a month later when their BFF is talking about how maybe they'll pull little Aidan out of public school and send him to a 50k private school bc he just isn't getting enough attention at MCPS, then the same jealousies/insecurities rear their head as they start thinking -- OMG I "only" make 300k I don't know if I can afford that; but if I don't Larlo will be behind for life and will never make it to an ivy; it's no fair that BFF has family money and her parents will pay for private school, my parents can't do that . . . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because people don't "count" having a nanny, and a $800k house, and outsourcing as their luxuries.

The $600k poster was a really good example of that, how she explained away "well we have to have a nanny since our work hours are so long and we don't have family" and justifies the student loan at $1k "because one of us is a lawyer."

Not realizing that some people would HAVE to move close to family, not a choice to have a nanny, or put their child in a high ratio daycare that is cheap but has extended hours and add an hour to their daily commute to get there, or even be up to date on their student loans without having a parent bail them out, get on a deferred payment plan, etc.

And having 2 cars instead of getting a small condo, kids share a room, and take metro.

They look at their money AFTER doing all those things.

That's the problem.

I strongly agree with this post. The people complaining about being poor on six figure incomes are confused about why they're not rolling in cash after paying expensive mortgage (most poor people don't own houses), paying for their expensive childcare (most poor people do not pay $2k+ month in childcare), paying off their grad/law/med school student loans (most poor people do not go to grad/law/medical school), and paying their grocery bills at Whole Foods.

I also find the "$300k is middle class" argument disingenuous because posters who say "owning a home, going to college, taking vacations, etc. are middle class activities" often fail to recognize that owning a $700,000 house is not middle class, going to Yale is not middle class, and flying 4 people to Disney for a week is not middle class.

I sympathize with the rich people problems. It would be nice if we all had enough money to pay for the things that we want. But there's a world of difference between choosing which utility bill to pay this month and choosing whether to go to Disney this summer or this winter.

WTF? That is certainly middle class now and was middle class 30 years ago. My parents were certainly middle class and we went to Disney a few times. They owned a nice house (no mansion, but no dump), and sent two kids off to private universities (one Ivy). We had some student loans but mostly paid for by my parents.

Yeah, that's not middle class.

Sorry - solidly middle class. As were many of our neighbors who had similar houses, vacations, educations. Sometimes people had more student loans than others but we all had similar experiences.

How do you define "middle class"? Do you mean poor or struggling financially?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because people don't "count" having a nanny, and a $800k house, and outsourcing as their luxuries.

The $600k poster was a really good example of that, how she explained away "well we have to have a nanny since our work hours are so long and we don't have family" and justifies the student loan at $1k "because one of us is a lawyer."

Not realizing that some people would HAVE to move close to family, not a choice to have a nanny, or put their child in a high ratio daycare that is cheap but has extended hours and add an hour to their daily commute to get there, or even be up to date on their student loans without having a parent bail them out, get on a deferred payment plan, etc.

And having 2 cars instead of getting a small condo, kids share a room, and take metro.

They look at their money AFTER doing all those things.

That's the problem.

I strongly agree with this post. The people complaining about being poor on six figure incomes are confused about why they're not rolling in cash after paying expensive mortgage (most poor people don't own houses), paying for their expensive childcare (most poor people do not pay $2k+ month in childcare), paying off their grad/law/med school student loans (most poor people do not go to grad/law/medical school), and paying their grocery bills at Whole Foods.

I also find the "$300k is middle class" argument disingenuous because posters who say "owning a home, going to college, taking vacations, etc. are middle class activities" often fail to recognize that owning a $700,000 house is not middle class, going to Yale is not middle class, and flying 4 people to Disney for a week is not middle class.

I sympathize with the rich people problems. It would be nice if we all had enough money to pay for the things that we want. But there's a world of difference between choosing which utility bill to pay this month and choosing whether to go to Disney this summer or this winter.

WTF? That is certainly middle class now and was middle class 30 years ago. My parents were certainly middle class and we went to Disney a few times. They owned a nice house (no mansion, but no dump), and sent two kids off to private universities (one Ivy). We had some student loans but mostly paid for by my parents.

Yeah, going to Disney is totes middle class.

np. I'd say going to Disney once, maybe twice in a childhood is middle class, and that often involves a big, extended family vacation with grandparents helping to foot the bill for everyone, possibly staying offsite, saving for a couple years.

"Doing Disney" pretty regularly and wringing your hands about the commercialization and inauthenticity (but assuaging your angst by ensuring that your kids also get to European museums), staying at monorail resorts, etc., etc., is NOT middle class.

I know two teacher households that go regularly. Are you saying they aren't middle class? Your definition of "middle class" is f'ed up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because people don't "count" having a nanny, and a $800k house, and outsourcing as their luxuries.

The $600k poster was a really good example of that, how she explained away "well we have to have a nanny since our work hours are so long and we don't have family" and justifies the student loan at $1k "because one of us is a lawyer."

Not realizing that some people would HAVE to move close to family, not a choice to have a nanny, or put their child in a high ratio daycare that is cheap but has extended hours and add an hour to their daily commute to get there, or even be up to date on their student loans without having a parent bail them out, get on a deferred payment plan, etc.

And having 2 cars instead of getting a small condo, kids share a room, and take metro.

They look at their money AFTER doing all those things.

That's the problem.

I strongly agree with this post. The people complaining about being poor on six figure incomes are confused about why they're not rolling in cash after paying expensive mortgage (most poor people don't own houses), paying for their expensive childcare (most poor people do not pay $2k+ month in childcare), paying off their grad/law/med school student loans (most poor people do not go to grad/law/medical school), and paying their grocery bills at Whole Foods.

I also find the "$300k is middle class" argument disingenuous because posters who say "owning a home, going to college, taking vacations, etc. are middle class activities" often fail to recognize that owning a $700,000 house is not middle class, going to Yale is not middle class, and flying 4 people to Disney for a week is not middle class.

I sympathize with the rich people problems. It would be nice if we all had enough money to pay for the things that we want. But there's a world of difference between choosing which utility bill to pay this month and choosing whether to go to Disney this summer or this winter.

WTF? That is certainly middle class now and was middle class 30 years ago. My parents were certainly middle class and we went to Disney a few times. They owned a nice house (no mansion, but no dump), and sent two kids off to private universities (one Ivy). We had some student loans but mostly paid for by my parents.

Yeah, going to Disney is totes middle class.

np. I'd say going to Disney once, maybe twice in a childhood is middle class, and that often involves a big, extended family vacation with grandparents helping to foot the bill for everyone, possibly staying offsite, saving for a couple years.

"Doing Disney" pretty regularly and wringing your hands about the commercialization and inauthenticity (but assuaging your angst by ensuring that your kids also get to European museums), staying at monorail resorts, etc., etc., is NOT middle class.

I know two teacher households that go regularly. Are you saying they aren't middle class? Your definition of "middle class" is f'ed up.

A two-teacher household (I think that's what you mean; hyphens are important) is in the lower regions of upper-middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the definitions and income bands have shifted over time. In the 80s-90s middle class or even UMC meant you owned a home in a good district so ideally you sent the kids to public school but the home wasn't necessarily new or large and often your kids shared bedrooms; you saved some for retirement and college; you had 2 cars but it's possible one or both were used and neither was luxury; you took 1 driving vacation a yr; you ate out once a week max and in some families it was more like once a month or a few times a yr for birthdays etc.

Now people seem to think UMC means huge new house and no kid will be sharing a bathroom let alone a bedroom; the option of going to private school when they get in a snit with their public school teacher; maxing out retirement; 2 cars - both new and both luxury; and at least 2 flying vacations per yr; and eating out 5-10 times/week -- fast casual any time their heart desires + all groceries MUST come from Whole Foods. Then when they realize that even at 300k, all of that can be a financial stress -- then they act miserable bc they "feel" poor.

Huh? I think the issue is that $300K in the inner DC suburbs gets you the middle class lifestyle described above. If you're a 30-something with a mortgage (on a 70-year-old cape on a tiny lot!), two regular cars, are paying off your student loans and paying for child care, and trying to save for retirement and college -- that's your income, right there. There's no way you're paying for private school or a beach house or European vacations or even shopping at Whole Foods all the time. You're not poor, not at all, but you don't have a "ludicrously high income," either. But the government taxes you like you're crazy rich--that AMT makes your effective tax rate twice that of someone making $150K, so you're paying four times as much in taxes--and people insult you if you dare complain.

[Anonymous]

What do they want? I think that is pretty clear: they want it ALL. The 1.25-2 mil house. The 85k car (x2 and maybe a fun convertible for a third that they only take out on weekends). They want a second home at the beach. They want to be able to spend 50k on travel every year. They want to be able to drop 200-300 at dinner once a week (plus babysitter). They want the 110k CC membership plus ongoing dues and related fees. They want to pay for private school for 2-3 children. They want to save at least $1k a month per kid for college. In addition, they'll want $100k extra for general savings. I can keep good by here. This is where all their money goes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What do they want? I think that is pretty clear: they want it ALL. The 1.25-2 mil house. The 85k car (x2 and maybe a fun convertible for a third that they only take out on weekends). They want a second home at the beach. They want to be able to spend 50k on travel every year. They want to be able to drop 200-300 at dinner once a week (plus babysitter). They want the 110k CC membership plus ongoing dues and related fees. They want to pay for private school for 2-3 children. They want to save at least $1k a month per kid for college. In addition, they'll want $100k extra for general savings. I can keep good by here. This is where all their money goes.

Fwiw we have this lifestyle (minus private school) with three kids at an income of ~ 750k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Happiness does not come from material things. It is an emotional state and we as humans get emotional satisfaction from relationships and feeling of self-worth. This culture does not lend to deep emotional relationships. When we cannot love or care enough to put someone else above us, then we cannot help but be self-centered. All negative feelings comes from being self-centered because there will be always someone who is better off than us in something. Its like measuring how fulfilling your life is by seeing the FB posts of others.

Ok but let's be real. Money and material things don't bring you happiness in themselves but they do give you pretty close approximations: comfort (this is big), security (also big), time savings, leisure, travel, entertainment, excitement, better education and enrichment for your kids. It's not bad to want these things. Just try not to be tacky when focusing on what you don't have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because people don't "count" having a nanny, and a $800k house, and outsourcing as their luxuries.

The $600k poster was a really good example of that, how she explained away "well we have to have a nanny since our work hours are so long and we don't have family" and justifies the student loan at $1k "because one of us is a lawyer."

Not realizing that some people would HAVE to move close to family, not a choice to have a nanny, or put their child in a high ratio daycare that is cheap but has extended hours and add an hour to their daily commute to get there, or even be up to date on their student loans without having a parent bail them out, get on a deferred payment plan, etc.

And having 2 cars instead of getting a small condo, kids share a room, and take metro.

They look at their money AFTER doing all those things.

That's the problem.

I strongly agree with this post. The people complaining about being poor on six figure incomes are confused about why they're not rolling in cash after paying expensive mortgage (most poor people don't own houses), paying for their expensive childcare (most poor people do not pay $2k+ month in childcare), paying off their grad/law/med school student loans (most poor people do not go to grad/law/medical school), and paying their grocery bills at Whole Foods.

I also find the "$300k is middle class" argument disingenuous because posters who say "owning a home, going to college, taking vacations, etc. are middle class activities" often fail to recognize that owning a $700,000 house is not middle class, going to Yale is not middle class, and flying 4 people to Disney for a week is not middle class.

I sympathize with the rich people problems. It would be nice if we all had enough money to pay for the things that we want. But there's a world of difference between choosing which utility bill to pay this month and choosing whether to go to Disney this summer or this winter.

WTF? That is certainly middle class now and was middle class 30 years ago. My parents were certainly middle class and we went to Disney a few times. They owned a nice house (no mansion, but no dump), and sent two kids off to private universities (one Ivy). We had some student loans but mostly paid for by my parents.

Yeah, going to Disney is totes middle class.

np. I'd say going to Disney once, maybe twice in a childhood is middle class, and that often involves a big, extended family vacation with grandparents helping to foot the bill for everyone, possibly staying offsite, saving for a couple years.

"Doing Disney" pretty regularly and wringing your hands about the commercialization and inauthenticity (but assuaging your angst by ensuring that your kids also get to European museums), staying at monorail resorts, etc., etc., is NOT middle class.

I know two teacher households that go regularly. Are you saying they aren't middle class? Your definition of "middle class" is f'ed up.

A two-teacher household (I think that's what you mean; hyphens are important) is in the lower regions of upper-middle class.

WTF?!

And and we getting that granular? Lower-upper-middle class?

In terms of lifestyle and expectation I think there are really only three categories: poor, middle class, rich

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because people don't "count" having a nanny, and a $800k house, and outsourcing as their luxuries.

The $600k poster was a really good example of that, how she explained away "well we have to have a nanny since our work hours are so long and we don't have family" and justifies the student loan at $1k "because one of us is a lawyer."

Not realizing that some people would HAVE to move close to family, not a choice to have a nanny, or put their child in a high ratio daycare that is cheap but has extended hours and add an hour to their daily commute to get there, or even be up to date on their student loans without having a parent bail them out, get on a deferred payment plan, etc.

And having 2 cars instead of getting a small condo, kids share a room, and take metro.

They look at their money AFTER doing all those things.

That's the problem.

I strongly agree with this post. The people complaining about being poor on six figure incomes are confused about why they're not rolling in cash after paying expensive mortgage (most poor people don't own houses), paying for their expensive childcare (most poor people do not pay $2k+ month in childcare), paying off their grad/law/med school student loans (most poor people do not go to grad/law/medical school), and paying their grocery bills at Whole Foods.

I also find the "$300k is middle class" argument disingenuous because posters who say "owning a home, going to college, taking vacations, etc. are middle class activities" often fail to recognize that owning a $700,000 house is not middle class, going to Yale is not middle class, and flying 4 people to Disney for a week is not middle class.

I sympathize with the rich people problems. It would be nice if we all had enough money to pay for the things that we want. But there's a world of difference between choosing which utility bill to pay this month and choosing whether to go to Disney this summer or this winter.

WTF? That is certainly middle class now and was middle class 30 years ago. My parents were certainly middle class and we went to Disney a few times. They owned a nice house (no mansion, but no dump), and sent two kids off to private universities (one Ivy). We had some student loans but mostly paid for by my parents.

Yeah, going to Disney is totes middle class.

np. I'd say going to Disney once, maybe twice in a childhood is middle class, and that often involves a big, extended family vacation with grandparents helping to foot the bill for everyone, possibly staying offsite, saving for a couple years.

"Doing Disney" pretty regularly and wringing your hands about the commercialization and inauthenticity (but assuaging your angst by ensuring that your kids also get to European museums), staying at monorail resorts, etc., etc., is NOT middle class.

I know two teacher households that go regularly. Are you saying they aren't middle class? Your definition of "middle class" is f'ed up.

A two-teacher household (I think that's what you mean; hyphens are important) is in the lower regions of upper-middle class.

WTF?!

And and we getting that granular? Lower-upper-middle class?

In terms of lifestyle and expectation I think there are really only three categories: poor, middle class, rich

Two teacher household is upper middle class??? That is crazy...

Disney vacation is by definition middle class vacation; yes you can upper class it with resorts or private character lunches or what not, but flying to freaking Orlando and going to Disney??

As for $700k house? That is disingenuous: housing costs have far out stripped income, so $700k gets you middle class housing if you want ok schools and not extreme commute. It's not like it can buy you a mansion on an acre unless you are in WV. Median sale price for Fairfax is $500k and that includes condos/townhouses.

Housing is the real problem here; prices way out of whack with incomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do they want? I think that is pretty clear: they want it ALL. The 1.25-2 mil house. The 85k car (x2 and maybe a fun convertible for a third that they only take out on weekends). They want a second home at the beach. They want to be able to spend 50k on travel every year. They want to be able to drop 200-300 at dinner once a week (plus babysitter). They want the 110k CC membership plus ongoing dues and related fees. They want to pay for private school for 2-3 children. They want to save at least $1k a month per kid for college. In addition, they'll want $100k extra for general savings. I can keep good by here. This is where all their money goes.

Fwiw we have this lifestyle (minus private school) with three kids at an income of ~ 750k.

fwiw, we have a HHI of $1.8m and that is NOT our life style
2 kids in public
one house - $700K
one Lexus with 105K miles and one toyota with 56K miles
$150 gym membership

Splurge ....??? We love our steakhouse dinners - 1 per month $150
and we vacation a lot - maybe around $40K with this summer being our first to Europe as a family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:comparisons and expectations, of course.

they're not poor, but they don't have everything they want or expect. we have a hhi of around 200k, usually plus an annual bonus, debt of around 400k (mostly mortgage and some remaining student loans) and I would never be so clueless as to call myself "poor". I am not.

Sometimes I struggle, however. with two incomes and kids, time is the most precious resource of all and its one of those things you can't really buy, at least not directly. so, we struggle to piece together bits of time and make tradeoffs that I never really would have expected at my income level. (outsource house cleaning instead of having FIOS; never buy coffee or lunch so that I have $100 or so to stick in a college account every month; get groceries delivered, but stop buying organic or name brand; cancel beach house this summer so that we can get the AC fixed; keep my 6yo phone with the busted screen because buying a new one is crazy expensive; keep the shitty 30-yo washer/dryer that smells a bit and get repaired once/year because we had to get the car fixed; get Christmas presents for the kids, not for each other; kids live in hand-me-downs from their cousins; we're going to need a new car sometime in the next few years and I'm not sure what budget that is coming out of yet.) The consequences for me of such tradeoffs are obviously minor. No one's going without healthcare or food or housing. So, no, people like me should never describe themselves as "poor." Doesn't mean we never get to complain.

Doesn't sound much like rich to me though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because people don't "count" having a nanny, and a $800k house, and outsourcing as their luxuries.

The $600k poster was a really good example of that, how she explained away "well we have to have a nanny since our work hours are so long and we don't have family" and justifies the student loan at $1k "because one of us is a lawyer."

Not realizing that some people would HAVE to move close to family, not a choice to have a nanny, or put their child in a high ratio daycare that is cheap but has extended hours and add an hour to their daily commute to get there, or even be up to date on their student loans without having a parent bail them out, get on a deferred payment plan, etc.

And having 2 cars instead of getting a small condo, kids share a room, and take metro.

They look at their money AFTER doing all those things.

That's the problem.

I strongly agree with this post. The people complaining about being poor on six figure incomes are confused about why they're not rolling in cash after paying expensive mortgage (most poor people don't own houses), paying for their expensive childcare (most poor people do not pay $2k+ month in childcare), paying off their grad/law/med school student loans (most poor people do not go to grad/law/medical school), and paying their grocery bills at Whole Foods.

I also find the "$300k is middle class" argument disingenuous because posters who say "owning a home, going to college, taking vacations, etc. are middle class activities" often fail to recognize that owning a $700,000 house is not middle class, going to Yale is not middle class, and flying 4 people to Disney for a week is not middle class.

I sympathize with the rich people problems. It would be nice if we all had enough money to pay for the things that we want. But there's a world of difference between choosing which utility bill to pay this month and choosing whether to go to Disney this summer or this winter.

WTF? That is certainly middle class now and was middle class 30 years ago. My parents were certainly middle class and we went to Disney a few times. They owned a nice house (no mansion, but no dump), and sent two kids off to private universities (one Ivy). We had some student loans but mostly paid for by my parents.

Yeah, going to Disney is totes middle class.

np. I'd say going to Disney once, maybe twice in a childhood is middle class, and that often involves a big, extended family vacation with grandparents helping to foot the bill for everyone, possibly staying offsite, saving for a couple years.

"Doing Disney" pretty regularly and wringing your hands about the commercialization and inauthenticity (but assuaging your angst by ensuring that your kids also get to European museums), staying at monorail resorts, etc., etc., is NOT middle class.

I know two teacher households that go regularly. Are you saying they aren't middle class? Your definition of "middle class" is f'ed up.

A two-teacher household (I think that's what you mean; hyphens are important) is in the lower regions of upper-middle class.

WTF?!

And and we getting that granular? Lower-upper-middle class?

In terms of lifestyle and expectation I think there are really only three categories: poor, middle class, rich

Two teacher household is upper middle class??? That is crazy...

Disney vacation is by definition middle class vacation; yes you can upper class it with resorts or private character lunches or what not, but flying to freaking Orlando and going to Disney??

As for $700k house? That is disingenuous: housing costs have far out stripped income, so $700k gets you middle class housing if you want ok schools and not extreme commute. It's not like it can buy you a mansion on an acre unless you are in WV. Median sale price for Fairfax is $500k and that includes condos/townhouses.

Housing is the real problem here; prices way out of whack with incomes.

Np here and I really think you're out of touch with the rest of the country. Even in this area you absolutely don't need a $700k house to get "ok schools." In most of the country two teachers are much better off than the average household. You need to travel more, both inside and outside the DC area. Your baseline is wildly off.