What should Israel do with Gaza?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel should respond to every rocket attack with a devastating artillery barrage. Keep killing the Palestinians until they quit or are all dead.

That is the current strategy. How's it working?

Israel is targeting terrorists, not the general Palestinian population.

In that case, Israel has really bad aim. Israel has killed more Palestinian children than fighters.

That is not true. According to al Jazeera, 82% of those killed were men with 66% being between 18-38 and a large portion bring older than 38.

I don't know where al-Jazeera is getting it's numbers or if you quoted al-Jazeera correctly, but the Washington Post has an interactive graphic here using UN figures:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/

It shows 87 armed Palestinians killed and 144 children killed (out of 443 Palestinian civilians).

Edit: Here is a second report, but I think based on the same UN report, that shows similar figures:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10984259/Revealed-the-Palestinian-children-killed-by-Israeli-forces.html

This one has the name and age of each child killed.

Al Jazeera has no reason to lie about this. An organization who states their mission is to protect human rights in Gaza is probably getting their 'data' directly from Hamas.

The UN gave missiles they found back to Hamas. And they are going after Israel for war crimes? Please!

The blatant accusations that Israel is deliberately killing children shows a lack of logic on the part of the posters. It's as if people want to latch to a cause to fill holes in their lives, rather than think for themselves.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel should respond to every rocket attack with a devastating artillery barrage. Keep killing the Palestinians until they quit or are all dead.

That is the current strategy. How's it working?

Israel is targeting terrorists, not the general Palestinian population.

In that case, Israel has really bad aim. Israel has killed more Palestinian children than fighters.

That is not true. According to al Jazeera, 82% of those killed were men with 66% being between 18-38 and a large portion bring older than 38.

I don't know where al-Jazeera is getting it's numbers or if you quoted al-Jazeera correctly, but the Washington Post has an interactive graphic here using UN figures:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/

It shows 87 armed Palestinians killed and 144 children killed (out of 443 Palestinian civilians).

Edit: Here is a second report, but I think based on the same UN report, that shows similar figures:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10984259/Revealed-the-Palestinian-children-killed-by-Israeli-forces.html

This one has the name and age of each child killed.

Al Jazeera has no reason to lie about this. An organization who states their mission is to protect human rights in Gaza is probably getting their 'data' directly from Hamas.

The UN gave missiles they found back to Hamas. And they are going after Israel for war crimes? Please!

The blatant accusations that Israel is deliberately killing children shows a lack of logic on the part of the posters. It's as if people want to latch to a cause to fill holes in their lives, rather than think for themselves.

I didn't say that Al-Jazeera lied. I said I didn't know where they got their numbers. You have done anything to clarify that. I also suggested that you had not quoted their numbers correctly and you have not done anything to clarify that either. There is no doubt that Israel has deliberately targeted children in the sense that Israel knew full well that when it pulled the trigger, children would die. To put it another way, Israel willingly accepts the death of children as part of its targeting decisions.

Can you provide a link supporting your allegation that the UN gave missiles back to Hamas?

You seem to indicate a desire for people to think for themselves, but then you fail to provide any kind of support for your claims. I'd like to think for myself by evaluating your sources rather than mindlessly accepting your word.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel should respond to every rocket attack with a devastating artillery barrage. Keep killing the Palestinians until they quit or are all dead.

That is the current strategy. How's it working?

Israel is targeting terrorists, not the general Palestinian population.

In that case, Israel has really bad aim. Israel has killed more Palestinian children than fighters.

That is not true. According to al Jazeera, 82% of those killed were men with 66% being between 18-38 and a large portion bring older than 38.

I don't know where al-Jazeera is getting it's numbers or if you quoted al-Jazeera correctly, but the Washington Post has an interactive graphic here using UN figures:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/gaza-counter/

It shows 87 armed Palestinians killed and 144 children killed (out of 443 Palestinian civilians).

Edit: Here is a second report, but I think based on the same UN report, that shows similar figures:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10984259/Revealed-the-Palestinian-children-killed-by-Israeli-forces.html

This one has the name and age of each child killed.

Al Jazeera has no reason to lie about this. An organization who states their mission is to protect human rights in Gaza is probably getting their 'data' directly from Hamas.

The UN gave missiles they found back to Hamas. And they are going after Israel for war crimes? Please!

The blatant accusations that Israel is deliberately killing children shows a lack of logic on the part of the posters. It's as if people want to latch to a cause to fill holes in their lives, rather than think for themselves.

I didn't say that Al-Jazeera lied. I said I didn't know where they got their numbers. You have done anything to clarify that. I also suggested that you had not quoted their numbers correctly and you have not done anything to clarify that either. There is no doubt that Israel has deliberately targeted children in the sense that Israel knew full well that when it pulled the trigger, children would die. To put it another way, Israel willingly accepts the death of children as part of its targeting decisions.

Can you provide a link supporting your allegation that the UN gave missiles back to Hamas?

You seem to indicate a desire for people to think for themselves, but then you fail to provide any kind of support for your claims. I'd like to think for myself by evaluating your sources rather than mindlessly accepting your word.

Here is the source for where the UN returned the missiles to Hamas http://cnsnews.com/mrctv-blog/curtis-kalin/un-returns-20-missiles-found-un-run-gaza-school-hamas

Here is the source for the Al Jazaeera numbers http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/21/al-jazeera-publishes-updated-list-of-gaza-dead-analysis-confirms-israel-tageting-combatants/ - although I now ackowledge it may be a disputed interpretation of the Al Jazeera report.

And even the anti-Israel UN supports that Hamas purposely puts children in harms way by placing rockets in schools and playgrounds and then not allowing civilians to leave the areas after they have been warned. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/22/hamas-hiding-rockets-in-schools-children-playgrounds-israel-and-un-agency-say/

You previously said that the tunnels were built for defensive measure and protection, but Hamas does not allow any of the civilians to hide in them from the air strikes. They are reserved for militants. When civilians are being used as human shields, its really difficult, even for Israel with its very careful aim, not to cause some casualties.

[Anonymous]

The Al Jazeera data lists age for less than half of the people killed and a bunch are listed as unidentified entirely.

[Anonymous]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/
U.N.: 1 child killed in Gaza every hour

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip -- Israeli troops battled Hamas militants on Wednesday near a southern Gaza Strip town as the U.S. secretary of state flew into Israel to press top-gear efforts for a truce in the conflict that has so far killed at least 657 Palestinians and 31 Israelis.

[Anonymous]

Didn't the UN help establish the existence of israel? Why do so many posters now accuse rhem of being anti-Israel?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Here is the source for where the UN returned the missiles to Hamas http://cnsnews.com/mrctv-blog/curtis-kalin/un-returns-20-missiles-found-un-run-gaza-school-hamas

Here is the source for the Al Jazaeera numbers http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/21/al-jazeera-publishes-updated-list-of-gaza-dead-analysis-confirms-israel-tageting-combatants/ - although I now ackowledge it may be a disputed interpretation of the Al Jazeera report.

And even the anti-Israel UN supports that Hamas purposely puts children in harms way by placing rockets in schools and playgrounds and then not allowing civilians to leave the areas after they have been warned. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/22/hamas-hiding-rockets-in-schools-children-playgrounds-israel-and-un-agency-say/

You previously said that the tunnels were built for defensive measure and protection, but Hamas does not allow any of the civilians to hide in them from the air strikes. They are reserved for militants. When civilians are being used as human shields, its really difficult, even for Israel with its very careful aim, not to cause some casualties.

Thank you for the sources. They demonstrate why I like to have sources to evaluate. Regarding the rockets being returned: it looks like an open and shut case at first. But, then, if you follow through the chain of links you eventually find things are more complicated. First:

1) In the article to which you link, there is this quote:

"A spokesperson for UNRWA said the organization gave the rockets to 'local authorities,' which answer to the Hamas-backed unity government led by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas."

Note, UNRWA said it turned over the rockets to "local authorities". The alleged link between those authorities and Hamas is the suggestion of the author of the quote.

2) Moving on to the source of the CNS article, we find this:

"A Western diplomat familiar with the incident said there is 'absolutely no evidence' that UNRWA handed the rockets to Hamas. Rather, the diplomat suggested, the authorities who collected the rockets are under the direct authority of the Palestinian unity government, 'which Hamas has left and which many in Hamas are openly hostile to. The key point is that the weapons were handed over to people who are not answerable to Hamas,' the diplomat said, referring to the fact that the unity government, not Hamas, is officially the ruling power in Gaza."

So, the bottom line is all we know for sure is that UNRWA handed the weapons over to local authorities -- which The Times of Israel article also explains is standard procedure world-wide. We don't know exactly who those local authorities were. The Israeli says the local authorities answer to Hamas and the Western diplomat says they are at odds with Hamas. I have no idea which of the two is correct and I assume that you don't either.

Regarding the al-Jazeera numbers, as both you and others have pointed out, what you reported is questionable. The numbers you reported were not provided by al-Jazeera, but by a pro-Israel blog. That analysis is very questionable for multiple reasons.

Regarding the UN report about weapons in schools, I disagree with your conclusion. First, let me note the irony that you are using a report by the UN -- the same UN whose casualty numbers you refused to accept -- as your evidence. The UN report doesn't mention playgrounds. Fox's headline is inaccurate about that. The UN report does say that weapons were found in two empty schools. While I condemn hiding weapons in schools, I disagree that hiding weapons in an empty school automatically puts children in danger. If Israel bombed an empty school, there would be few, if any civilian casualties.

Your final point highlights the dilemma that Hamas faces. It's tunnels are clearly for military purposes -- to defend against Israeli attackers. If Hamas allowed civilians into those tunnels, they would clearly be putting civilians in the midst of legitimate targets for Israelis forces. The civilians have been trying to congregate around non-military targets -- something not always easy to do if you don't know where Hamas is hiding. There are multiple reports of the Israelis telling Palestinians to evacuate their buildings and go to another one, only to have the second one bombed. Those case are clearly not situations of civilians being used as human shields.

[Anonymous]

The dilemma that Hamas faces?!?!? It's tunnels are for defending against Israeli attackers?

This is the most disgusting vile argument I've heard yet and I've read and viewed countless reports including people chanting "death to Jews" and "push them into the sea." At least they are honest.

Even the most extreme Arab nations (other than turkey and Qatar) haven't legitimized Hamas like this. You are doing the Palestinian people whom you claim to care so deeply about no good by defending their terrorist government, who has vocalized time and time again that martyrdom is the ultimate sacrifice, children and adults alike.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The dilemma that Hamas faces?!?!? It's tunnels are for defending against Israeli attackers?

This is the most disgusting vile argument I've heard yet and I've read and viewed countless reports including people chanting "death to Jews" and "push them into the sea." At least they are honest.

Even the most extreme Arab nations (other than turkey and Qatar) haven't legitimized Hamas like this. You are doing the Palestinian people whom you claim to care so deeply about no good by defending their terrorist government, who has vocalized time and time again that martyrdom is the ultimate sacrifice, children and adults alike.

+1000000. The Gazans are victims of Hamas, who started this war and who has repeatedly refused to end it. I respect compassion for the Gazans - they have truly been dealth a horrific card in life, but the blame rests squarely on Hamas, the leaders of which are safely out of Gaza watching the death of their citizens and dont even have the balls to fight from within Gaza.

[Anonymous]

9:48 here. Regarding the claim that the Israelis tell civilians to move just to move them elsewhere and bomb that building, you are grasping for straws.

13 Israeli soldiers died a few days ago because they forewarned civilians to leave and Hamas was there, waiting for the Israeli solders. Israel owes NOTHING to these civilians yet they continue to operate this warning system even to their detriment. Still, the world faults them and we get statements like "Hamas is building tunnels to protect itself".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
The dilemma that Hamas faces?!?!? It's tunnels are for defending against Israeli attackers?

This is the most disgusting vile argument I've heard yet and I've read and viewed countless reports including people chanting "death to Jews" and "push them into the sea." At least they are honest.

Even the most extreme Arab nations (other than turkey and Qatar) haven't legitimized Hamas like this. You are doing the Palestinian people whom you claim to care so deeply about no good by defending their terrorist government, who has vocalized time and time again that martyrdom is the ultimate sacrifice, children and adults alike.


+1000000. The Gazans are victims of Hamas, who started this war and who has repeatedly refused to end it. I respect compassion for the Gazans - they have truly been dealth a horrific card in life, but the blame rests squarely on Hamas, the leaders of which are safely out of Gaza watching the death of their citizens and dont even have the balls to fight from within Gaza.

Please the Gazans are the victims of Israel. The blame and god's judgement will fall on Israel and its supporters.

[Anonymous]

Hamas has a truce on the table for almost a week. All Israel has to do is end the siege of Gaza.

[Anonymous]

The dilemma that Hamas faces?!?!? It's tunnels are for defending against Israeli attackers?

This is the most disgusting vile argument I've heard yet and I've read and viewed countless reports including people chanting "death to Jews" and "push them into the sea." At least they are honest.

Even the most extreme Arab nations (other than turkey and Qatar) haven't legitimized Hamas like this. You are doing the Palestinian people whom you claim to care so deeply about no good by defending their terrorist government, who has vocalized time and time again that martyrdom is the ultimate sacrifice, children and adults alike.

So the Palestinians do not have a right to self defense?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel should go back to the 68 border or a one state solution. Time is running out for Israel.

Sorry bud... Israel is here to stay. Time is running out for Hamas, though. They are going DOWN! The Palestinians will be much better off for it, too.

This. +1000.

Deal with it.

[Anonymous]

Well Israel policies and military doctrine is collective punishment for Gaza. So shouldn't Hamas do the samething? If Israel targets and kills civilians as part of its military operations, Israel can not morally argue that Hamas is some how evil by doing the same.