What should Israel do with Gaza?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Israel should go back to the 68 border or a one state solution. Time is running out for Israel.


Sorry bud... Israel is here to stay. Time is running out for Hamas, though. They are going DOWN! The Palestinians will be much better off for it, too.


This. +1000.

Deal with it.

Yes the 68 border plus the Palistinians get Jerusalem. The world just can not allow such a vile and murderous regime to control Jerusalem.

[Anonymous]

The irony of how Israel treats the Palestinians is that we have Jews who have been persecuted for centuries and who were to be eliminated from the face of the earth by the Nazis now indiscriminately killing Palestinians including young children and justifying their conduct as morally defensible.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:The dilemma that Hamas faces?!?!? It's tunnels are for defending against Israeli attackers?

This is the most disgusting vile argument I've heard yet and I've read and viewed countless reports including people chanting "death to Jews" and "push them into the sea." At least they are honest.

Even the most extreme Arab nations (other than turkey and Qatar) haven't legitimized Hamas like this. You are doing the Palestinian people whom you claim to care so deeply about no good by defending their terrorist government, who has vocalized time and time again that martyrdom is the ultimate sacrifice, children and adults alike.

To my knowledge, the Israelis have only discovered three tunnels running into Israel. The rest are internal to Gaza and, as I've said before, can better be described as "bunkers". Using bunkers of this nature proved very successful for Hizballah during Israel's last invasion of Lebanon. Hamas obviously learned from that experience and is using similar tactics.

As for your later accusation that I am "gasping at straws", you should know by now not to challenge my veracity. Unlike the pro-Israeli liars in this thread, I'm prepared to back up my assertions:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html

"Another reason was given by a neighbour, Abdullah al-Daweish: 'Where do we go to? Some people moved from the outer edge of Khan Younis to Khan Younis centre after Israelis told them to, then the centre got bombed. People have moved from this area to Gaza City, and Gaza City has been bombed. It’s not Hamas who is ordering us in this, it’s the Israelis.'"

There were several similar reports from reporters in Gaza that I saw in Twitter yesterday, but there is much news coming out I can't find the others right now.

But, back to the tunnels in Gaza. Hamas has built tunnels for military purposes. If Hamas allowed civilians into those tunnels, would you consider the civilians to be legitimate targets?

Similarly, do you feel that Israel has an obligate to build bomb shelters for its Bedouin population? As you probably know, a Bedouin was among those Israeli civilians killed but Israel refuses to build bomb shelters for that population.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The dilemma that Hamas faces?!?!? It's tunnels are for defending against Israeli attackers?

This is the most disgusting vile argument I've heard yet and I've read and viewed countless reports including people chanting "death to Jews" and "push them into the sea." At least they are honest.

Even the most extreme Arab nations (other than turkey and Qatar) haven't legitimized Hamas like this. You are doing the Palestinian people whom you claim to care so deeply about no good by defending their terrorist government, who has vocalized time and time again that martyrdom is the ultimate sacrifice, children and adults alike.

To my knowledge, the Israelis have only discovered three tunnels running into Israel. The rest are internal to Gaza and, as I've said before, can better be described as "bunkers". Using bunkers of this nature proved very successful for Hizballah during Israel's last invasion of Lebanon. Hamas obviously learned from that experience and is using similar tactics.

As for your later accusation that I am "gasping at straws", you should know by now not to challenge my veracity. Unlike the pro-Israeli liars in this thread, I'm prepared to back up my assertions:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html

"Another reason was given by a neighbour, Abdullah al-Daweish: 'Where do we go to? Some people moved from the outer edge of Khan Younis to Khan Younis centre after Israelis told them to, then the centre got bombed. People have moved from this area to Gaza City, and Gaza City has been bombed. It’s not Hamas who is ordering us in this, it’s the Israelis.'"

There were several similar reports from reporters in Gaza that I saw in Twitter yesterday, but there is much news coming out I can't find the others right now.

But, back to the tunnels in Gaza. Hamas has built tunnels for military purposes. If Hamas allowed civilians into those tunnels, would you consider the civilians to be legitimate targets?

Similarly, do you feel that Israel has an obligate to build bomb shelters for its Bedouin population? As you probably know, a Bedouin was among those Israeli civilians killed but Israel refuses to build bomb shelters for that population.

Wow, "pro-Israeli liars"? I stopped reading after seeing that.

[Anonymous]

Hamas fires rockets indiscriminately at civilian areas. That is a war crime. They use schools and hospitals as launching sites for attacks. That is also a war crime. To block those rockets Israel counterattacks, but there is often heavy collateral damage. The Israeli counterattack may not be wise, ethical, or strategically productive for them, but it can't be compared with Hamas war crimes.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Wow, "pro-Israeli liars"? I stopped reading after seeing that.

Fine. Just to be clear, there are pro-Israel posters who are not liars and there are liars who are not pro-Israel, but there are a number of pro-Israel liars who have been posting lately.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Hamas fires rockets indiscriminately at civilian areas. That is a war crime. They use schools and hospitals as launching sites for attacks. That is also a war crime. To block those rockets Israel counterattacks, but there is often heavy collateral damage. The Israeli counterattack may not be wise, ethical, or strategically productive for them, but it can't be compared with Hamas war crimes.

I disagree. Accepting your assertions about Hamas (some of which I would actually argue), the result of Hamas' "war crimes" are minimal casualties. The result of Israel's "war crimes" (something you failed to call them though that is what they actually are) is hundreds of deaths. The results of crimes should not be divorced from the crime itself.

I am prepared to agree that Hamas has committed war crimes. But, it is also clear that Israel has committed war crimes. Some of you justify Israel's crimes because they were committed in response to Hamas' crimes. But, that's not how international law works. There is actually more of a burden on Israel as an occupying power. Legally, Israel has committed multiple war crimes and the reality is that the results of its crimes have been much more deadly than the results of Hamas' crimes.

We all know that two wrongs don't make a right. It is even more true that one wrong and a worse wrong don't make a right.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hamas fires rockets indiscriminately at civilian areas. That is a war crime. They use schools and hospitals as launching sites for attacks. That is also a war crime. To block those rockets Israel counterattacks, but there is often heavy collateral damage. The Israeli counterattack may not be wise, ethical, or strategically productive for them, but it can't be compared with Hamas war crimes.

I disagree. Accepting your assertions about Hamas (some of which I would actually argue), the result of Hamas' "war crimes" are minimal casualties. The result of Israel's "war crimes" (something you failed to call them though that is what they actually are) is hundreds of deaths. The results of crimes should not be divorced from the crime itself.

I am prepared to agree that Hamas has committed war crimes. But, it is also clear that Israel has committed war crimes. Some of you justify Israel's crimes because they were committed in response to Hamas' crimes. But, that's not how international law works. There is actually more of a burden on Israel as an occupying power. Legally, Israel has committed multiple war crimes and the reality is that the results of its crimes have been much more deadly than the results of Hamas' crimes.

We all know that two wrongs don't make a right. It is even more true that one wrong and a worse wrong don't make a right.

So when Hamas fires missiles from schools and hospitals, what should Israel do? What is the proper defense in your view?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:So when Hamas fires missiles from schools and hospitals, what should Israel do? What is the proper defense in your view?

Israel should not have allowed itself to be in this situation given that such a scenario was easily predictable. But, my response would depend on more specific details. In many cases, the rockets are primitive and very portable The fighter runs up with it, places and aims it, launches and runs away. In such circumstances, an Israeli response on the position will only harm innocents. Looking at the photographs that the IDF released to show rockets being fired from schools and hospitals, those actually showed the rockets were outside the grounds of those buildings. If Israel attacked the buildings -- and I don't know if they did in those cases -- they attacked the wrong targets. If the buildings were significantly damaged in an attack on the rocket site, the Israelis chose the wrong weapon. I don't see any justification for knocking down and entire apartment building because a rocket was fired from the ally behind it.

I have no idea what happened with the UN school today. The UN has found rockets stored in two empty schools. This school was not empty and UN officials were on site. Since the UN has shown its willingness to reveal rockets hidden in schools, the Israelis should have trusted the UN to alert it to rockets. If the Israelis believed there were rockets or fighters there, UN officials should have been asked to investigate and report on it. There is no justification for attacking a school full of children, particularly in this case in which a party with a track record of opposing weapons in schools was on the ground.

I know that some will find it hard to accept, but the Israeli actions point to their using tactics from the "Dahiya Doctrine" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine . As Wikipedia says, this is when the army "deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence". I would go further and suggest that the Israeli army is also maximizing collateral casualties among the civilian population to further pressure Hamas. The Israeli strategy is to put so much pressure on the civilian population that the civilians turn against Hamas. The Israeli intention may well be to have more cooperative Palestinians such as Fatah replace Hamas and is hoping that Gazans will welcome Fatah as a way of ending their suffering. Regardless, if you look at Israel's action in the context of the "Dahiya Doctrine", the targeting of power plants, hospitals, schools, and populated buildings starts to make sense. But, just to be clear, this strategy violates the rules of war and those who are responsible are committing war crimes.

[Anonymous]

No country would or should tolerate indiscriminate rocket fire at its civilians. Israel is justified to fight back. But their current strategy isn't right or smart. Hamas WANTS Palestinian civilian casualties so that the Jeffs of the world can have sympathy - Hamas believes that this will lead to international intervention that will further their aims. Hamas rockets may kill very few Jewish civilians but they have Palestinian blood on their hands as much as the Israeli forces do.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:No country would or should tolerate indiscriminate rocket fire at its civilians. Israel is justified to fight back. But their current strategy isn't right or smart. Hamas WANTS Palestinian civilian casualties so that the Jeffs of the world can have sympathy - Hamas believes that this will lead to international intervention that will further their aims. Hamas rockets may kill very few Jewish civilians but they have Palestinian blood on their hands as much as the Israeli forces do.

I totally agree with the bolded and any discussion beyond that point is superfluous. I will concede all other arguments. If dead Palestinians benefit Hamas, then Israel should not be providing Hamas with so much benefit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous



Hamas fires rockets indiscriminately at civilian areas. That is a war crime. They use schools and hospitals as launching sites for attacks. That is also a war crime. To block those rockets Israel counterattacks, but there is often heavy collateral damage. The Israeli counterattack may not be wise, ethical, or strategically productive for them, but it can't be compared with Hamas war crimes.

Go to the Hague and let the courts settle it.

[Anonymous]

Israel should not have allowed itself to be in this situation given that such a scenario was easily predictable. But, my response would depend on more specific details. In many cases, the rockets are primitive and very portable The fighter runs up with it, places and aims it, launches and runs away. In such circumstances, an Israeli response on the position will only harm innocents. Looking at the photographs that the IDF released to show rockets being fired from schools and hospitals, those actually showed the rockets were outside the grounds of those buildings. If Israel attacked the buildings -- and I don't know if they did in those cases -- they attacked the wrong targets. If the buildings were significantly damaged in an attack on the rocket site, the Israelis chose the wrong weapon. I don't see any justification for knocking down and entire apartment building because a rocket was fired from the ally behind it.

I have no idea what happened with the UN school today. The UN has found rockets stored in two empty schools. This school was not empty and UN officials were on site. Since the UN has shown its willingness to reveal rockets hidden in schools, the Israelis should have trusted the UN to alert it to rockets. If the Israelis believed there were rockets or fighters there, UN officials should have been asked to investigate and report on it. There is no justification for attacking a school full of children, particularly in this case in which a party with a track record of opposing weapons in schools was on the ground.

Omg, I agree wholeheartedly with this.
Even if this entire school was full of hidden rockets, you don't bomb a school of children and refugees, especially after you had told them to go there for shelter!!!

45 hours prior the UN distributed 400 meals at this school to children and their families that had just arrived there from other parts of Gaza, apparently per the Israeli warning to evacuate their homes. 45 hours ago, there were photos of smiling children with their meals in hand at that school, presumably a little reprieve from the prior days perhaps feeling safe.

I know, I know, Hamas is hiding behind children. But what are these families supposed to do?
They have nowhere to go. The borders are closed.
And you know what, if there were rockets at that school, I bet they are still there, unharmed!
But the civilians are dead and wounded.

.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Israel should not have allowed itself to be in this situation given that such a scenario was easily predictable. But, my response would depend on more specific details. In many cases, the rockets are primitive and very portable The fighter runs up with it, places and aims it, launches and runs away. In such circumstances, an Israeli response on the position will only harm innocents. Looking at the photographs that the IDF released to show rockets being fired from schools and hospitals, those actually showed the rockets were outside the grounds of those buildings. If Israel attacked the buildings -- and I don't know if they did in those cases -- they attacked the wrong targets. If the buildings were significantly damaged in an attack on the rocket site, the Israelis chose the wrong weapon. I don't see any justification for knocking down and entire apartment building because a rocket was fired from the ally behind it.

I have no idea what happened with the UN school today. The UN has found rockets stored in two empty schools. This school was not empty and UN officials were on site. Since the UN has shown its willingness to reveal rockets hidden in schools, the Israelis should have trusted the UN to alert it to rockets. If the Israelis believed there were rockets or fighters there, UN officials should have been asked to investigate and report on it. There is no justification for attacking a school full of children, particularly in this case in which a party with a track record of opposing weapons in schools was on the ground.

Omg, I agree wholeheartedly with this.
Even if this entire school was full of hidden rockets, you don't bomb a school of children and refugees, especially after you had told them to go there for shelter!!!

45 hours prior the UN distributed 400 meals at this school to children and their families that had just arrived there from other parts of Gaza, apparently per the Israeli warning to evacuate their homes. 45 hours ago, there were photos of smiling children with their meals in hand at that school, presumably a little reprieve from the prior days perhaps feeling safe.

I know, I know, Hamas is hiding behind children. But what are these families supposed to do?
They have nowhere to go. The borders are closed.
And you know what, if there were rockets at that school, I bet they are still there, unharmed!
But the civilians are dead and wounded.

.

Intentionally shelling the school would be 100% wrong but the reports show this is not necessarily what happened. Its currently under investigation

1. Those rockets have actually gone "missing"
2. UNWRA spokesperson admits that Hamas was shooting rockets in the area and those rockets might have hit the school
3. IDF says a shell from a tank may have misfired hitting the school unintentionally
4. Hamas militants were shooting from that area and there was a lot of firefight between them and IDF

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Intentionally shelling the school would be 100% wrong but the reports show this is not necessarily what happened. Its currently under investigation

1. Those rockets have actually gone "missing"
2. UNWRA spokesperson admits that Hamas was shooting rockets in the area and those rockets might have hit the school
3. IDF says a shell from a tank may have misfired hitting the school unintentionally
4. Hamas militants were shooting from that area and there was a lot of firefight between them and IDF

Taking the IDF Spokesperson at his word:

https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/status/492355858680926208

Hamas fired from a populated area near an UNRWA shelter & prevented civilians from evacuating after we sent warnings. http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/07/24/hamas/ …

The link goes to here:

http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/07/24/hamas/

The blog post is amazing in it's inability to decide on a story, but part of it says:

"In recent days, Hamas has fired rockets from an area of Beit Hanoun where an UNRWA shelter is located. Last night, the Israel Defense Forces told the Red Cross to evacuate civilians from UNRWA’s shelter in Beit Hanoun between the hours of 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. today. UNRWA and the Red Cross received the message."

So, the Israelis seem to be saying that the school was a legitimate target and they had warned UNRWA to evacuate. Therefore, one must assume the building was purposefully targeted.

Then, the blog post continues:

"Also today, several rockets launched from Gaza toward Israel fell short and hit Beit Hanoun."

So, we are supposed to believe that coincidentally with the Israelis warning UNRWA to leave, the Palestinians accidentally shelled the school.

Also, adding to the story, is this tweet from Richard Engle:

https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/492344456654249984

"UNRWA chief tells us agency was not given any warning before strikes on school."

So, despite half a blog post devoted to saying UNRWA was warned to leave the school, UNRWA says it wasn't warned.

As far as I can tell, the Israeli position is "our attack was totally justified and we did everything we could do to make sure the school was empty, but the rockets were fired by someone else."

Alternatively, if you parse the sentence, "Also today, several rockets launched from Gaza toward Israel fell short and hit Beit Hanoun", you will notice that it is written in passive voice. So, since Israeli warships are located in the Mediterranean Sea, they could have theoretically have launched rockets aimed at targets in Gaza. Those rockets would have been fired "toward Israel", though with no intention of going that far. So, Israel could be hinting that it's own rockets fell short. In which case, Israel's argument would be that this was an accident. So, Israel has suggested at least three possibilities for what happened, but in any case it is not to blame.