FCPS Proposal to close down AAP Centers at Greenbriar West ES and Carson MS

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think it's the beginning of the end of centers. There are several board members who don't like them. I could see them saying LLIV is the same and costs less.

It the same thing and does cost less. It's a sensible solution that's been a long time coming.

In some schools where there is critical mass, it is similar. In other schools where is not critical mass, it is not.

It used to be that this was true. Nowadays the AAP program has been expanded so much that the only difference between kids in that 85-95th %ile range who are in the program and those who aren't is that the former prepped better, appealed more and got expensive outside testing done. If you want to expand the program that much, fine, but you could just pull in those same kids from inside the school itself without resorting to expensive bussing and without overcrowding the center schools.

Size of base school plays a role--our school is very small and often has only 2 classes per grade: LLIV would turn into a "smart class" and a "dumb class" in each grade, not a good thing, IMO.

Well this is exactly how center schools play out. My DC goes to one of the larger centers and while there are far more AAP classes (in fact, they outnumber the Gen Ed classes), there is the underlying - and false - assumption that the AAP classes are "smart" and Gen Ed "dumb". In fact, center schools only magnify this insanity and further the false division of students. It would be far less egregious if there was only one AAP class per grade, and the rest were all Gen Ed. Kind of like real life.

In my son's case, he has two base school classmates that went with him to the Center. One Center-eligible classmate chose to stay at the base school. So he no longer goes to the Center school and has a Local Level IV class of four students?

If there were four kids eligible for LLIV, then it would even easier for them to be integrated into a Gen Ed class and given differentiated work by the teacher. These kids will not wither up and become comatose if they are in a mixed-level class.

My DC was bullied in a 2nd grade class, including repeatedly thrown down into the dirt on the playground. So no, he did not wither up and become comatose, but I was not a fan of the school environment for him.

What does that have to do with differentiated learning? AAP/Gen Ed?

I think that if my son were with more academic peers -- as in he had more than one other kid that was at his academic level in his base school -- he might have been less isolated and subject to bullying. He came home in tears so many times due to how poorly he was treated at recess. In our case, he was thrilled to leave his base school to go to the Center as he escaped the tormenting.

My DS had plenty of "academic peers"in his school and they still bullied and isolated him. It is about social intelligence not academic intelligence. He had to be taught social skills. Bullies will find the weak spot and exploit it. If your child was in a room filled with his "academic peers" there would still be a child at the bottom of the social ladder being isolated and bullied.

I don't know why you find it so difficult to acknowledge that AAP kids in a center are less likely to bully the type of student described above than GenEd kids.

Because it isn't true.

It's absolutely true, all the way through HS. Look at how few disciplinary infractions there are at TJ.

That is your proof? For 3rd graders? LOL!

[Anonymous]

13:16

I am not the poster you keep arguing with and antagonizing

It is quite simple really.

Those kid of kids who are usually on their own and social outcasts at most schools have, at the centers, a peer group of 6-10 kids who are just like them or very similarly quirky.

They go from a situation where they are either completely isolated, ignored or bullied at a typical school, to a school where they have not just one friend who is a friend by default, but several friends.
Like it or not, there is a disproportionately higher geek factor in the AAP center, that gives the kids who would normally be outcasts a group of friends. It gives these typesf kids the opportunity to develop friendships in a more natural and normal way than they are able to in a typical school where they are all alone at best, or bullied and ostracized at worst.

Whether you like AAP centers or hate them, that aspect is by far one of the best things about them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:13:16

I am not the poster you keep arguing with and antagonizing

It is quite simple really.

Those kid of kids who are usually on their own and social outcasts at most schools have, at the centers, a peer group of 6-10 kids who are just like them or very similarly quirky.

They go from a situation where they are either completely isolated, ignored or bullied at a typical school, to a school where they have not just one friend who is a friend by default, but several friends.
Like it or not, there is a disproportionately higher geek factor in the AAP center, that gives the kids who would normally be outcasts a group of friends. It gives these typesf kids the opportunity to develop friendships in a more natural and normal way than they are able to in a typical school where they are all alone at best, or bullied and ostracized at worst.

Whether you like AAP centers or hate them, that aspect is by far one of the best things about them.

Exactly, and the bullies are less likely to pick on kids with friends, who aren't such easy targets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The drama as it stands now is limited to certain schools at certain parts of the county.

It is certainly not widespread, and in most areas it is really just limited to the time in the spring right around results, or just at the center schools.

For most people and at most schools in this county AAP drama and controversy is completely off the radar.

You realize you are posting this in a forum that had to be specifically carved out of the VA Schools forum because of the constant drama, right?

Putting a LLIV at every school 100% guarantees the drama becomes widespread and long term. It is borrowing trouble where there is none

Yeah, I think that ship has sailed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The drama as it stands now is limited to certain schools at certain parts of the county.

It is certainly not widespread, and in most areas it is really just limited to the time in the spring right around results, or just at the center schools.

For most people and at most schools in this county AAP drama and controversy is completely off the radar.

You realize you are posting this in a forum that had to be specifically carved out of the VA Schools forum because of the constant drama, right?

Putting a LLIV at every school 100% guarantees the drama becomes widespread and long term. It is borrowing trouble where there is none

Yeah, I think that ship has sailed.

Maybe your school and your part of the county, but not elsewhere and not to the degree that it happens on this forum.

How many AAP centers are in the county? Elementary? Middle School?

To read the AAP forum, one would think that there are about two, maybe three AAP middle schools county wide, and maybe 4-6 AAP center elementary schools. According to this forum, ALL of them are full of drama, backstabbing, bullying, mean competitive overstressed kids and crazy out of control tiger parents, and all of them are hated passionately by the entire general ed population. All of them are primarily in one part of the county.

There is one elementary that is mentioned here from time to time in a mostly positive light. In fact, I have not seen any drama filled or disparaging posts about that school or between its parents. There are a handful of schools in other parts of the county where parents might post a question about the program and receive 1-6 helpful and courteous responses. None of the schools mentioned occasionally or with only neutral or positive comments are from the part of the county with the schools alluded to above.

So no, the AAP program is not a source of constant drama, bitterness and backstabbing. No, it is not this terrible, cut throat program ruining Fairfax County Public Schools. No, most of the general ed population does not hate the AAP population, and no, the AAP kids and parents are not swooping in trying to destroy the lovely neighborhood schools that the county has foisted them on. And no, most of the parents, AAP and non AAP, spend hour after hour obsessing over who was prepped, who was not or who is "truly gifted" and "deserving" of AAP.

In fact, other than when the placement decisions come in, AAP is completely off the radar for the majority of parents in Fairfax County.

I am very sorry that your school and area is not the way that most of the county is. It must be a very stressful way to live to have that much vitrol and drama over an elementary school program and placement decision that may or may not affect your child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The drama as it stands now is limited to certain schools at certain parts of the county.

It is certainly not widespread, and in most areas it is really just limited to the time in the spring right around results, or just at the center schools.

For most people and at most schools in this county AAP drama and controversy is completely off the radar.

You realize you are posting this in a forum that had to be specifically carved out of the VA Schools forum because of the constant drama, right?

Putting a LLIV at every school 100% guarantees the drama becomes widespread and long term. It is borrowing trouble where there is none

Yeah, I think that ship has sailed.

Maybe your school and your part of the county, but not elsewhere and not to the degree that it happens on this forum.

How many AAP centers are in the county? Elementary? Middle School?

To read the AAP forum, one would think that there are about two, maybe three AAP middle schools county wide, and maybe 4-6 AAP center elementary schools. According to this forum, ALL of them are full of drama, backstabbing, bullying, mean competitive overstressed kids and crazy out of control tiger parents, and all of them are hated passionately by the entire general ed population. All of them are primarily in one part of the county.

There is one elementary that is mentioned here from time to time in a mostly positive light. In fact, I have not seen any drama filled or disparaging posts about that school or between its parents. There are a handful of schools in other parts of the county where parents might post a question about the program and receive 1-6 helpful and courteous responses. None of the schools mentioned occasionally or with only neutral or positive comments are from the part of the county with the schools alluded to above.

So no, the AAP program is not a source of constant drama, bitterness and backstabbing. No, it is not this terrible, cut throat program ruining Fairfax County Public Schools. No, most of the general ed population does not hate the AAP population, and no, the AAP kids and parents are not swooping in trying to destroy the lovely neighborhood schools that the county has foisted them on. And no, most of the parents, AAP and non AAP, spend hour after hour obsessing over who was prepped, who was not or who is "truly gifted" and "deserving" of AAP.

In fact, other than when the placement decisions come in, AAP is completely off the radar for the majority of parents in Fairfax County.

I am very sorry that your school and area is not the way that most of the county is. It must be a very stressful way to live to have that much vitrol and drama over an elementary school program and placement decision that may or may not affect your child.

+100000

FABULOUS post!

[Anonymous]

I have heard that many parents now bypass the GBW area in Chantilly and look further west in Loudoun County, because GBW is viewed as a school that's run for the benefit of Asian kids in AAP. If the AAP program were smaller, some people might think the school had more to offer their GenEd children.

[Anonymous]

The solution doesn't have to be black or white. I am a big supporter of center schools for all of the reasons mentioned before, but at some point there comes a point of diminishing returns when overcrowding becomes too much. In my opinion, LLIV elementary schools that feed into significantly overcrowded centers should be designated as "one school centers" if the LLIV has a significant population of AAP eligible students (i.e. enough to fill 2 classrooms per grade)(e.g. schools like Wolftrap). I know no one wants to subject their child to an unknown-quality center when they have a historically-proven high-quality center as an option, but I'm sure folks at the overcrowded centers can attest that the quality dimishes with each passing year as the classes swell.

[Anonymous]

The principal placement is going to cause SOOOOO much drama. Can you hear the non stop complaints of how the queen bee, class mom, Miss PTA kids are all getting into the "smart" class because they volunteer/kiss up/lobby/bug the teachers and the principals?

And this "smart" class is going to be roughly the same 15-24 kids, year after year, and their neighborhood kids are going to wonder why they can't be with their friends, why their friends get to be in that class and they don't, why does the school think their friend (principal placed) is so much smarter than everyone else, especially those kids who were placed by the principal.

This is EXACTLY what happened in our Local Level IV.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The solution doesn't have to be black or white. I am a big supporter of center schools for all of the reasons mentioned before, but at some point there comes a point of diminishing returns when overcrowding becomes too much. In my opinion, LLIV elementary schools that feed into significantly overcrowded centers should be designated as "one school centers" if the LLIV has a significant population of AAP eligible students (i.e. enough to fill 2 classrooms per grade)(e.g. schools like Wolftrap). I know no one wants to subject their child to an unknown-quality center when they have a historically-proven high-quality center as an option, but I'm sure folks at the overcrowded centers can attest that the quality dimishes with each passing year as the classes swell.

Wolftrap typically has one full AAP class. One year they had enough to make 1.5 classrooms. There are very few transfers to Louise Archer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:13:16

I am not the poster you keep arguing with and antagonizing

It is quite simple really.

Those kid of kids who are usually on their own and social outcasts at most schools have, at the centers, a peer group of 6-10 kids who are just like them or very similarly quirky.

They go from a situation where they are either completely isolated, ignored or bullied at a typical school, to a school where they have not just one friend who is a friend by default, but several friends.
Like it or not, there is a disproportionately higher geek factor in the AAP center, that gives the kids who would normally be outcasts a group of friends. It gives these typesf kids the opportunity to develop friendships in a more natural and normal way than they are able to in a typical school where they are all alone at best, or bullied and ostracized at worst.

Whether you like AAP centers or hate them, that aspect is by far one of the best things about them.

This has not been my experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The solution doesn't have to be black or white. I am a big supporter of center schools for all of the reasons mentioned before, but at some point there comes a point of diminishing returns when overcrowding becomes too much. In my opinion, LLIV elementary schools that feed into significantly overcrowded centers should be designated as "one school centers" if the LLIV has a significant population of AAP eligible students (i.e. enough to fill 2 classrooms per grade)(e.g. schools like Wolftrap). I know no one wants to subject their child to an unknown-quality center when they have a historically-proven high-quality center as an option, but I'm sure folks at the overcrowded centers can attest that the quality dimishes with each passing year as the classes swell.

+1000 I like this idea and think this is also the one favored by much of the school board. There is no justification for busing students to a center when they have a critical mass of peers at their base school, particularly when the center is already overcrowded with AAP students outnumbering base school kids 2 to 1. Making qualified local schools "one school centers," would also spread the wealth around a bit, alleviating the other problem with centers -- if you build them people will come and they will specifically move to the neighborhood of a center and then devote their lives to doing everything they can to make sure all their kids get into AAP. This has also significantly contributed to overcrowding.

Yes, LLIV schools have their own issues as PPs have noted, but they also have an advantage because everyone is a neighborhood student. Students come into the school and their families are already part of the local community. They live near each other, send their kids to the same preschools, belong to the same local pools or health clubs, shop at the same stores. They all have an interest in seeing the school flourish even when their kids haven't started or are no longer there. It's not like a center where you have a cohort of families with no connection to the school/area being bused in to get a superior, segregated education often to the detriment of local students.

When my son attended a well-regarded center a few years back, his curriculum was great, but I was really taken aback at how out for themselves so many of the parents were. To them the center was more of a stepping stone than school -- a place where their kid was going to get his. I think it's more difficult to cop that kind of an attitude when you're in your local neighborhood and have to face these people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:13:16
I am not the poster you keep arguing with and antagonizing

It is quite simple really.

Those kid of kids who are usually on their own and social outcasts at most schools have, at the centers, a peer group of 6-10 kids who are just like them or very similarly quirky.

They go from a situation where they are either completely isolated, ignored or bullied at a typical school, to a school where they have not just one friend who is a friend by default, but several friends.
Like it or not, there is a disproportionately higher geek factor in the AAP center, that gives the kids who would normally be outcasts a group of friends. It gives these typesf kids the opportunity to develop friendships in a more natural and normal way than they are able to in a typical school where they are all alone at best, or bullied and ostracized at worst.

Whether you like AAP centers or hate them, that aspect is by far one of the best things about them.

This has not been my experience.

Do you mean it is not your child's experience or are you a student posting?

Are you saying that your awkward child has no similarly bright but awkward friends in AAP or are you saying that you can't think of six or so kids in a given AAP grade that slower socially, geeky, twice exceptional or socially challenged in spite of their brightness.

Because I am the poster you are responding to and I can think of a dozen kids off the top of my head in my kids aap grade who fall into that categorh. AAP has been very good for them. Mostly boys and two girls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To read the AAP forum, one would think that there are about two, maybe three AAP middle schools county wide, and maybe 4-6 AAP center elementary schools. According to this forum, ALL of them are full of drama, backstabbing, bullying, mean competitive overstressed kids and crazy out of control tiger parents, and all of them are hated passionately by the entire general ed population. All of them are primarily in one part of the county.

There is one elementary that is mentioned here from time to time in a mostly positive light. In fact, I have not seen any drama filled or disparaging posts about that school or between its parents. There are a handful of schools in other parts of the county where parents might post a question about the program and receive 1-6 helpful and courteous responses. None of the schools mentioned occasionally or with only neutral or positive comments are from the part of the county with the schools alluded to above.

So no, the AAP program is not a source of constant drama, bitterness and backstabbing. No, it is not this terrible, cut throat program ruining Fairfax County Public Schools. No, most of the general ed population does not hate the AAP population, and no, the AAP kids and parents are not swooping in trying to destroy the lovely neighborhood schools that the county has foisted them on. And no, most of the parents, AAP and non AAP, spend hour after hour obsessing over who was prepped, who was not or who is "truly gifted" and "deserving" of AAP.

In fact, other than when the placement decisions come in, AAP is completely off the radar for the majority of parents in Fairfax County.

Excellent post. This is exactly why the change will not be a big deal. The vast majority of kids will move from the centers back to their base schools, receive LLIV services, and see their neighborhood friends again, all without any drama. The usual complainers will complain, but it's just their mission to be unhappy and claim that the world will end. After a few years, no one will even remember that centers existed, and the world will continue to spin on its axis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The solution doesn't have to be black or white. I am a big supporter of center schools for all of the reasons mentioned before, but at some point there comes a point of diminishing returns when overcrowding becomes too much. In my opinion, LLIV elementary schools that feed into significantly overcrowded centers should be designated as "one school centers" if the LLIV has a significant population of AAP eligible students (i.e. enough to fill 2 classrooms per grade)(e.g. schools like Wolftrap). I know no one wants to subject their child to an unknown-quality center when they have a historically-proven high-quality center as an option, but I'm sure folks at the overcrowded centers can attest that the quality dimishes with each passing year as the classes swell.

+1000 I like this idea and think this is also the one favored by much of the school board. There is no justification for busing students to a center when they have a critical mass of peers at their base school, particularly when the center is already overcrowded with AAP students outnumbering base school kids 2 to 1. Making qualified local schools "one school centers," would also spread the wealth around a bit, alleviating the other problem with centers -- if you build them people will come and they will specifically move to the neighborhood of a center and then devote their lives to doing everything they can to make sure all their kids get into AAP. This has also significantly contributed to overcrowding.

Yes, LLIV schools have their own issues as PPs have noted, but they also have an advantage because everyone is a neighborhood student. Students come into the school and their families are already part of the local community. They live near each other, send their kids to the same preschools, belong to the same local pools or health clubs, shop at the same stores. They all have an interest in seeing the school flourish even when their kids haven't started or are no longer there. It's not like a center where you have a cohort of families with no connection to the school/area being bused in to get a superior, segregated education often to the detriment of local students.

When my son attended a well-regarded center a few years back, his curriculum was great, but I was really taken aback at how out for themselves so many of the parents were. To them the center was more of a stepping stone than school -- a place where their kid was going to get his. I think it's more difficult to cop that kind of an attitude when you're in your local neighborhood and have to face these people.

But in our area, all of the feeder schools and the center school are within a five minute drive of each other. All of the kids and families already know each other through sports, the pool, church, neighborhood activities. The center school feels like just as much of a neighborhood school to us as does our actual neighborhood school.