FCPS Proposal to close down AAP Centers at Greenbriar West ES and Carson MS

[Anonymous]

11:12 here, should read:

"...I have boys, and am around boys. I do not see bullying by the kids I am around (boys) from AAP kids to center kids. I have seen normal peer to peer bullying that you will see in any AAP or non AAP classroom (my kid experienced months of this). I have seen the typical cool kid bullying the week kid. I have seen one instance of the odd geeky kid in AAP get bullied not only from a few classmates., but also pushed around and bullied by non AAP kids who don't have classes with him but would target him in the halls, recess, etc. This is a kid who likely would have been bullied in many different circumstances ufortunately. Thankfully the staff put an end to it as soon as they were made aware..."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have seen normal peer to peer bullying that you will see in any AAP classroom (my kid experienced months of this). I have seen the typical cool kid bullying the week kid. I have seen one instance of the odd geeky kid in AAP get bullied not only from a few classmates., but also pushed around and bullied by non AAP kids who don't have classes with him but would target him in the halls, recess, etc. This is a kid who likely would have been bullied in many different circumstances ufortunately. Thankfully the staff put an end to it as soon as they were made aware.

Agree with PP. Bullying will happen at center and feeder schools, regardless of the setup. The important thing is the effectiveness of the staff's response.

[Anonymous]

Silly me. I clicked on this thread thinking that I would actually read about Greenbriar West and Carson...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Back on topic - please?

So I have one son at LLIV and a daughter starting LLIV next fall. We looked at both the center and local and decided the local was a happier choice...kids were going to school with other kids in the neighborhood, the local school was closer, and so on. We couldn't really see any academic advantage to going to the center where there were few, if any neighborhood ties. Plus the center is a HUGE school and I was worried the kids would get lost.

So at face value I'm inclined to agree with the idea that center schools aren't delivering value relative to the effort required to maintain them.

Not all Centers/LLIV programs are the same across the county, nor are they all delivering services consistently. There are also some smaller populations of AAP LIV kids at their base schools that ARE better served in centers simply because of the number of kids. For instance, one ES might only have 13 LIV qualified students in a grade, which means that this class will have to be filled with LIII qualified students, but also that they will spend their ENTIRE 3-6 grades with the same kids in order to receive services. So for those kids they have the option of a center with a larger peer group and can make that choice. In this case, the centers DO deliver the value for the money. But this is not the case across the county where some schools have 24% of ta particular grade turning up as qualified, or a larger base population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Silly me. I clicked on this thread thinking that I would actually read about Greenbriar West and Carson...

haha..can't agree more

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Silly me. I clicked on this thread thinking that I would actually read about Greenbriar West and Carson...

You are. Some posters would be happy to see the AAP programs at both centers scaled back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back on topic - please?

So I have one son at LLIV and a daughter starting LLIV next fall. We looked at both the center and local and decided the local was a happier choice...kids were going to school with other kids in the neighborhood, the local school was closer, and so on. We couldn't really see any academic advantage to going to the center where there were few, if any neighborhood ties. Plus the center is a HUGE school and I was worried the kids would get lost.

So at face value I'm inclined to agree with the idea that center schools aren't delivering value relative to the effort required to maintain them.

Not all Centers/LLIV programs are the same across the county, nor are they all delivering services consistently. There are also some smaller populations of AAP LIV kids at their base schools that ARE better served in centers simply because of the number of kids. For instance, one ES might only have 13 LIV qualified students in a grade, which means that this class will have to be filled with LIII qualified students, but also that they will spend their ENTIRE 3-6 grades with the same kids in order to receive services. So for those kids they have the option of a center with a larger peer group and can make that choice. In this case, the centers DO deliver the value for the money. But this is not the case across the county where some schools have 24% of ta particular grade turning up as qualified, or a larger base population.

I think that local level IV in most schools is going to cause much more drama in far more areas of the county than the center programs ever could.

What you are going to have now, at most of the schools, is one small class of "smart" kids, and 2-3 classes of everyone else.

The principal placement is going to cause SOOOOO much drama. Can you hear the non stop complaints of how the queen bee, class mom, Miss PTA kids are all getting into the "smart" class because they volunteer/kiss up/lobby/bug the teachers and the principals?

And this "smart" class is going to be roughly the same 15-24 kids, year after year, and their neighborhood kids are going to wonder why they can't be with their friends, why their friends get to be in that class and they don't, why does the school think their friend (principal placed) is so much smarter than everyone else, especially those kids who were placed by the principal.

The type of complaints you hear from people zoned for the center are going to be magnified 100X, and at every single school in the district. I can't even imagine the drama when/if this plan goes into play.

The headaches for the teacher and staff, once the placement into the LLIV classes go from an outside committee (center model) vs completely at the discretion of the principal and staff (LLIV model) are just going to be over the top. I can't imagine the amount of lobbying that is going to occur, especially in situations where there are 6-10 kids qualifying, and the school has to find 10-15 other students to place in the class. It is not going to be pretty.

Completely eliminating the center model in favor of LLIV at every school will not be the bed of roses that some of you expect it to be. What will most certainly happen, is that the AAP drama is going to spread at every school across the district, even happy schools, and it is going to be drawn out through the entire year, year after year, instead of just a quick bit of drama when the placement comes out in the spring.

In my opinion, the best idea is a mix of LLIV at places like Haycock where they have dozens of kids qualifying for Level IV placement and where they will likely be able to fill the LLIV class only with kids who qualify, and center schools for the rest of the county.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back on topic - please?

So I have one son at LLIV and a daughter starting LLIV next fall. We looked at both the center and local and decided the local was a happier choice...kids were going to school with other kids in the neighborhood, the local school was closer, and so on. We couldn't really see any academic advantage to going to the center where there were few, if any neighborhood ties. Plus the center is a HUGE school and I was worried the kids would get lost.

So at face value I'm inclined to agree with the idea that center schools aren't delivering value relative to the effort required to maintain them.

Not all Centers/LLIV programs are the same across the county, nor are they all delivering services consistently. There are also some smaller populations of AAP LIV kids at their base schools that ARE better served in centers simply because of the number of kids. For instance, one ES might only have 13 LIV qualified students in a grade, which means that this class will have to be filled with LIII qualified students, but also that they will spend their ENTIRE 3-6 grades with the same kids in order to receive services. So for those kids they have the option of a center with a larger peer group and can make that choice. In this case, the centers DO deliver the value for the money. But this is not the case across the county where some schools have 24% of ta particular grade turning up as qualified, or a larger base population.

I dunno, to me this is more of an argument that the county is too large, especially if there's such a disparity in some schools vs others as you describe.

That said, it seems to make sense to me to reduce/eliminate the use of centers in parts of the county where there are enough students in a base school to fill up a LLIV class.

So I agree with you - I think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Back on topic - please?

So I have one son at LLIV and a daughter starting LLIV next fall. We looked at both the center and local and decided the local was a happier choice...kids were going to school with other kids in the neighborhood, the local school was closer, and so on. We couldn't really see any academic advantage to going to the center where there were few, if any neighborhood ties. Plus the center is a HUGE school and I was worried the kids would get lost.

So at face value I'm inclined to agree with the idea that center schools aren't delivering value relative to the effort required to maintain them.

Not all Centers/LLIV programs are the same across the county, nor are they all delivering services consistently. There are also some smaller populations of AAP LIV kids at their base schools that ARE better served in centers simply because of the number of kids. For instance, one ES might only have 13 LIV qualified students in a grade, which means that this class will have to be filled with LIII qualified students, but also that they will spend their ENTIRE 3-6 grades with the same kids in order to receive services. So for those kids they have the option of a center with a larger peer group and can make that choice. In this case, the centers DO deliver the value for the money. But this is not the case across the county where some schools have 24% of ta particular grade turning up as qualified, or a larger base population.

I dunno, to me this is more of an argument that the county is too large, especially if there's such a disparity in some schools vs others as you describe.

That said, it seems to make sense to me to reduce/eliminate the use of centers in parts of the county where there are enough students in a base school to fill up a LLIV class.

So I agree with you - I think.

There are huge disparities in smaller counties - think Yorktown compared to Wakefield. They just attract more attention when advanced students are formally identified.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's the beginning of the end of centers. There are several board members who don't like them. I could see them saying LLIV is the same and costs less.

It the same thing and does cost less. It's a sensible solution that's been a long time coming.

In some schools where there is critical mass, it is similar. In other schools where is not critical mass, it is not.

It used to be that this was true. Nowadays the AAP program has been expanded so much that the only difference between kids in that 85-95th %ile range who are in the program and those who aren't is that the former prepped better, appealed more and got expensive outside testing done. If you want to expand the program that much, fine, but you could just pull in those same kids from inside the school itself without resorting to expensive bussing and without overcrowding the center schools.

Size of base school plays a role--our school is very small and often has only 2 classes per grade: LLIV would turn into a "smart class" and a "dumb class" in each grade, not a good thing, IMO.

Well this is exactly how center schools play out. My DC goes to one of the larger centers and while there are far more AAP classes (in fact, they outnumber the Gen Ed classes), there is the underlying - and false - assumption that the AAP classes are "smart" and Gen Ed "dumb". In fact, center schools only magnify this insanity and further the false division of students. It would be far less egregious if there was only one AAP class per grade, and the rest were all Gen Ed. Kind of like real life.

In my son's case, he has two base school classmates that went with him to the Center. One Center-eligible classmate chose to stay at the base school. So he no longer goes to the Center school and has a Local Level IV class of four students?

If there were four kids eligible for LLIV, then it would even easier for them to be integrated into a Gen Ed class and given differentiated work by the teacher. These kids will not wither up and become comatose if they are in a mixed-level class.

My DC was bullied in a 2nd grade class, including repeatedly thrown down into the dirt on the playground. So no, he did not wither up and become comatose, but I was not a fan of the school environment for him.

What does that have to do with differentiated learning? AAP/Gen Ed?

I think that if my son were with more academic peers -- as in he had more than one other kid that was at his academic level in his base school -- he might have been less isolated and subject to bullying. He came home in tears so many times due to how poorly he was treated at recess. In our case, he was thrilled to leave his base school to go to the Center as he escaped the tormenting.

My DS had plenty of "academic peers"in his school and they still bullied and isolated him. It is about social intelligence not academic intelligence. He had to be taught social skills. Bullies will find the weak spot and exploit it. If your child was in a room filled with his "academic peers" there would still be a child at the bottom of the social ladder being isolated and bullied.

I don't know why you find it so difficult to acknowledge that AAP kids in a center are less likely to bully the type of student described above than GenEd kids.

Because it isn't true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think that local level IV in most schools is going to cause much more drama in far more areas of the county than the center programs ever could.

What you are going to have now, at most of the schools, is one small class of "smart" kids, and 2-3 classes of everyone else.

I think most of what you describe already has current analogs:

The principal placement is going to cause SOOOOO much drama. Can you hear the non stop complaints of how the queen bee, class mom, Miss PTA kids are all getting into the "smart" class because they volunteer/kiss up/lobby/bug the teachers and the principals?

Complaints about candidates qualifying for AAP? Sounds familiar.

And this "smart" class is going to be roughly the same 15-24 kids, year after year, and their neighborhood kids are going to wonder why they can't be with their friends, why their friends get to be in that class and they don't, why does the school think their friend (principal placed) is so much smarter than everyone else, especially those kids who were placed by the principal.

Complaints about disparate treatment between AAP and GenEd kids? Check.

The type of complaints you hear from people zoned for the center are going to be magnified 100X, and at every single school in the district. I can't even imagine the drama when/if this plan goes into play.

Community complaints and drama? Do tell.

The headaches for the teacher and staff, once the placement into the LLIV classes go from an outside committee (center model) vs completely at the discretion of the principal and staff (LLIV model) are just going to be over the top. I can't imagine the amount of lobbying that is going to occur, especially in situations where there are 6-10 kids qualifying, and the school has to find 10-15 other students to place in the class. It is not going to be pretty.

Parents complaining about Principal decisions? Yup.

Completely eliminating the center model in favor of LLIV at every school will not be the bed of roses that some of you expect it to be. What will most certainly happen, is that the AAP drama is going to spread at every school across the district, even happy schools, and it is going to be drawn out through the entire year, year after year, instead of just a quick bit of drama when the placement comes out in the spring.

Forgive me for disputing the assertion that AAP drama is currently "quick."

In my opinion, the best idea is a mix of LLIV at places like Haycock where they have dozens of kids qualifying for Level IV placement and where they will likely be able to fill the LLIV class only with kids who qualify, and center schools for the rest of the county.

Fair enough. I think capacity issues will force programmatic changes like these more frequently in the coming years.

We'll see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's the beginning of the end of centers. There are several board members who don't like them. I could see them saying LLIV is the same and costs less.

It the same thing and does cost less. It's a sensible solution that's been a long time coming.

In some schools where there is critical mass, it is similar. In other schools where is not critical mass, it is not.

It used to be that this was true. Nowadays the AAP program has been expanded so much that the only difference between kids in that 85-95th %ile range who are in the program and those who aren't is that the former prepped better, appealed more and got expensive outside testing done. If you want to expand the program that much, fine, but you could just pull in those same kids from inside the school itself without resorting to expensive bussing and without overcrowding the center schools.

Size of base school plays a role--our school is very small and often has only 2 classes per grade: LLIV would turn into a "smart class" and a "dumb class" in each grade, not a good thing, IMO.

Well this is exactly how center schools play out. My DC goes to one of the larger centers and while there are far more AAP classes (in fact, they outnumber the Gen Ed classes), there is the underlying - and false - assumption that the AAP classes are "smart" and Gen Ed "dumb". In fact, center schools only magnify this insanity and further the false division of students. It would be far less egregious if there was only one AAP class per grade, and the rest were all Gen Ed. Kind of like real life.

In my son's case, he has two base school classmates that went with him to the Center. One Center-eligible classmate chose to stay at the base school. So he no longer goes to the Center school and has a Local Level IV class of four students?

If there were four kids eligible for LLIV, then it would even easier for them to be integrated into a Gen Ed class and given differentiated work by the teacher. These kids will not wither up and become comatose if they are in a mixed-level class.

My DC was bullied in a 2nd grade class, including repeatedly thrown down into the dirt on the playground. So no, he did not wither up and become comatose, but I was not a fan of the school environment for him.

What does that have to do with differentiated learning? AAP/Gen Ed?

I think that if my son were with more academic peers -- as in he had more than one other kid that was at his academic level in his base school -- he might have been less isolated and subject to bullying. He came home in tears so many times due to how poorly he was treated at recess. In our case, he was thrilled to leave his base school to go to the Center as he escaped the tormenting.

My DS had plenty of "academic peers"in his school and they still bullied and isolated him. It is about social intelligence not academic intelligence. He had to be taught social skills. Bullies will find the weak spot and exploit it. If your child was in a room filled with his "academic peers" there would still be a child at the bottom of the social ladder being isolated and bullied.

I don't know why you find it so difficult to acknowledge that AAP kids in a center are less likely to bully the type of student described above than GenEd kids.

Because it isn't true.

It's absolutely true, all the way through HS. Look at how few disciplinary infractions there are at TJ.

[Anonymous]

It's absolutely true, all the way through HS. Look at how few disciplinary infractions there are at TJ.

Well, I think that's because they are too tired from all that work to be unruly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that local level IV in most schools is going to cause much more drama in far more areas of the county than the center programs ever could.

What you are going to have now, at most of the schools, is one small class of "smart" kids, and 2-3 classes of everyone else.

I think most of what you describe already has current analogs:

The principal placement is going to cause SOOOOO much drama. Can you hear the non stop complaints of how the queen bee, class mom, Miss PTA kids are all getting into the "smart" class because they volunteer/kiss up/lobby/bug the teachers and the principals?

Complaints about candidates qualifying for AAP? Sounds familiar.

And this "smart" class is going to be roughly the same 15-24 kids, year after year, and their neighborhood kids are going to wonder why they can't be with their friends, why their friends get to be in that class and they don't, why does the school think their friend (principal placed) is so much smarter than everyone else, especially those kids who were placed by the principal.

The drama as it stands now is limited to certain schools at certain parts of the county.

It is certainly not widespread, and in most areas it is really just limited to the time in the spring right around results.

For most people and at most schools in this county it is completely off the radar.

Putting a LLIV at every school 100% guarantees the drama becomes widespread and long term. It is borrowing trouble where there is none.

Complaints about disparate treatment between AAP and GenEd kids? Check.

The type of complaints you hear from people zoned for the center are going to be magnified 100X, and at every single school in the district. I can't even imagine the drama when/if this plan goes into play.

Community complaints and drama? Do tell.

The headaches for the teacher and staff, once the placement into the LLIV classes go from an outside committee (center model) vs completely at the discretion of the principal and staff (LLIV model) are just going to be over the top. I can't imagine the amount of lobbying that is going to occur, especially in situations where there are 6-10 kids qualifying, and the school has to find 10-15 other students to place in the class. It is not going to be pretty.

Parents complaining about Principal decisions? Yup.

Completely eliminating the center model in favor of LLIV at every school will not be the bed of roses that some of you expect it to be. What will most certainly happen, is that the AAP drama is going to spread at every school across the district, even happy schools, and it is going to be drawn out through the entire year, year after year, instead of just a quick bit of drama when the placement comes out in the spring.

Forgive me for disputing the assertion that AAP drama is currently "quick."

In my opinion, the best idea is a mix of LLIV at places like Haycock where they have dozens of kids qualifying for Level IV placement and where they will likely be able to fill the LLIV class only with kids who qualify, and center schools for the rest of the county.

Fair enough. I think capacity issues will force programmatic changes like these more frequently in the coming years.

We'll see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think that local level IV in most schools is going to cause much more drama in far more areas of the county than the center programs ever could.

What you are going to have now, at most of the schools, is one small class of "smart" kids, and 2-3 classes of everyone else.

I think most of what you describe already has current analogs:

The principal placement is going to cause SOOOOO much drama. Can you hear the non stop complaints of how the queen bee, class mom, Miss PTA kids are all getting into the "smart" class because they volunteer/kiss up/lobby/bug the teachers and the principals?

Complaints about candidates qualifying for AAP? Sounds familiar.

And this "smart" class is going to be roughly the same 15-24 kids, year after year, and their neighborhood kids are going to wonder why they can't be with their friends, why their friends get to be in that class and they don't, why does the school think their friend (principal placed) is so much smarter than everyone else, especially those kids who were placed by the principal.

Complaints about disparate treatment between AAP and GenEd kids? Check.

The type of complaints you hear from people zoned for the center are going to be magnified 100X, and at every single school in the district. I can't even imagine the drama when/if this plan goes into play.

Community complaints and drama? Do tell.

The headaches for the teacher and staff, once the placement into the LLIV classes go from an outside committee (center model) vs completely at the discretion of the principal and staff (LLIV model) are just going to be over the top. I can't imagine the amount of lobbying that is going to occur, especially in situations where there are 6-10 kids qualifying, and the school has to find 10-15 other students to place in the class. It is not going to be pretty.

Parents complaining about Principal decisions? Yup.

Completely eliminating the center model in favor of LLIV at every school will not be the bed of roses that some of you expect it to be. What will most certainly happen, is that the AAP drama is going to spread at every school across the district, even happy schools, and it is going to be drawn out through the entire year, year after year, instead of just a quick bit of drama when the placement comes out in the spring.

Forgive me for disputing the assertion that AAP drama is currently "quick."

In my opinion, the best idea is a mix of LLIV at places like Haycock where they have dozens of kids qualifying for Level IV placement and where they will likely be able to fill the LLIV class only with kids who qualify, and center schools for the rest of the county.

Fair enough. I think capacity issues will force programmatic changes like these more frequently in the coming years.

We'll see.

The drama as it stands now is limited to certain schools at certain parts of the county.

It is certainly not widespread, and in most areas it is really just limited to the time in the spring right around results, or just at the center schools.

For most people and at most schools in this county AAP drama and controversy is completely off the radar.

Putting a LLIV at every school 100% guarantees the drama becomes widespread and long term. It is borrowing trouble where there is none