The wisdom of rewarding Montgomery’s school employees (Washington Post)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do the teachers on here really not understand that the rest of us are NOT getting raises, "step" increases, cost of living raises, etc.? Do you not understand that many of us haven't seen any additional money in our paychecks for 4+ years; that we have to pay more money each month for our health insurance; that we don't get pensions; that we are expected to work more for not additional money? That is what many on this board are saying. We are living in this area, making no additional money, working hard, being "deserving" and all the rest...but we aren't getting any more money, so paying more hurts us a lot.

A little problem with time here, past vs. present. Sure, none of us got raises or step increases over the *past* few years. But as we pull out of the recession, more and more people are starting to get raises and step increases. Actually, not me, but others I know are starting to get raises again. So you think teachers should be the *last* to get raises, they should wait on line after everybody else?

Take a look at the recent jobs numbers and economic indicators. We aren't pulling out of the recession. If anything, we're about to re-enter another recession.

When one choses to work in the public sector then, yes, they will need to wait until revenue can justify additional expenditures to cover raises. Similarly, in a business, one must wait for sales/profits to increase before expecting a raise. That is just the way it works. It is basic economics.

To the PP who suggests, that parents can't expect their children to get a good education without providing these raises to the teachers. Baloney. That is extortion and not good faith. Can you imagine someone in the private sector demanding a raise when profits don't support it and then telling the boss to not expect quality work without such a raise. Any employer would fire that person so fast and fill the job with someone else. I think its time for public sector employees to get a grip and wake up to the economic realities that the rest of us live with at work.

To repeat: the point is, some people ARE starting to get raises again. I know some of them. Why should teachers be LAST on line?

[Anonymous]

You didn't answer the question at all. No one disputes that teachers are important, and serve vital functions. But so do cops, and firemen, and (to a lesserextent), hundreds (thousands?) of other county employees.

Just to be clear, the question is, "in a difficult economic climate, where many people in the private sector haven't received raises (and in fact have had salaries cut), AND where other municipal employees, including FF and cops, are not getting raises (but $2000 bonuses), why should teachers be treated differently?

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I'll answer this.

If we poured more money into education - resources and salaries - we'd continue to attract AND RETAIN teachers. Furthermore, by being proactive - by educating ALL children - there would be fewer drop outs, fewer kids sent to juvie, and fewer kids joining gangs.

We could offer more options for alternative routes to graduation, such as expanding Edison, where students learn trades. Trades are suffering because we expect every student to go to college. And let's face it; college isn't for everyone. I want a reputable plumber! I want a reliable electrician. I want to trust someone to style my wavy hair so that I walk of the salon looking like a million bucks!

So be proactive, people, and invest in our youth. And if you think that teachers are so giving that they'll opt for Mac 'n Cheese each night b/c they're choosing to pay for materials out of pocket, you're sadly mistaken. We have families to feed, too. I did not enter this field to become a martyr. I am educated with multiple degrees and am very successful in the classroom. I've had many opportunities to leave the profession and to climb by working in central office. I chose to stay for many reasons.

But not all talented teachers will do so, as I've already seen quite a few leave w/in the first five years. very sad indeed

But so many of you look at this investment as a drain. That's absolutely pathetic b/c you don't see the big picture.

An investment in education is an investment in the future. cliche' but true

Anonymous wrote:

I have no problem with teachers being paid more than police or firefighters, based on education or a host of other factors. In fact, for the most part teachers in MoCo ARE better paid than police and FF. But that's not the issue here. The issue is, in a difficult economic climate, where many people in the private sector haven't received raises (and in fact have had salaries cut), AND where other municipal employees, including FF and cops, are not getting raises (but $2000 bonuses), why should teachers be treated differently? Would the population scream and holler if the cops, FF, and county offices cut services in order to give raises? You bet they would. But that's what is happening in schools.

The obvious answer, as a PP pointed out, is that the money had been allocated to the schools, and the internal budgeting process is at the superintendent's and Board's discretion (I think). So it's not like the same decisionmaker preferred teachers over other municipal employees. But regardless of who made the decision, the reality is that some employees who are paid by tax dollars got raises, while others didn't.

No one's saying teachers don't work hard, or deserve raises (well, at least I'm not). But working hard and deserving something isn't the end of the equation. The money has to be there, and the schools have decided reducing services is an acceptable tradeoff to finance the raises (whatever they are). Other government entities haven't made the same choice, and that's why people are puzzled (and perturbed) by this. Add to that people in the private sector who are working just as hard (if not harder) than they were 4 years ago, and who are making the same (or less) money, and whether you agree with it or not, the reaction is understandable.

No teacher is going to attempt to answer this?

[Anonymous]

This notion that if you aren't for teacher raises you are somehow against a "quality education" is self-serving ridiculous. Part of the problem is that the county decided to forego many things that people believe would help provide a quality education - smaller class sizes, additional teachers, etc. Yet because we think those things are important, we're somehow not supporting a quality education. The only way to ensure a quality education is to pay teachers more? How convenient.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do the teachers on here really not understand that the rest of us are NOT getting raises, "step" increases, cost of living raises, etc.? Do you not understand that many of us haven't seen any additional money in our paychecks for 4+ years; that we have to pay more money each month for our health insurance; that we don't get pensions; that we are expected to work more for not additional money? That is what many on this board are saying. We are living in this area, making no additional money, working hard, being "deserving" and all the rest...but we aren't getting any more money, so paying more hurts us a lot.

Then don't expect a quality education for your children.

That's the simple fact.

Unless we put our money where are mouths are we will not be able to offer our children a solid K-8 program that will prepare them to become successful adults.

And keep in mind that WE - teachers - are taxpayers, too. So I, too, have a say in what I think is best for our students.

[Anonymous]

You seem to be saying (without actually coming out and saying it) that teachers are more deserving of raises than any other county employees. Is that correct?

And again, claiming that anyone who questions whether teacher raises are the best way to allocate school resources is "attacking teachers" is just ridiculous.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have worked as an educator in states where teachers get poorly compensated in Texas and South Carolina....trust me when I say that you wouldn't want your kids attending the majority of schools in these areas. I truly believe you get what you pay for....Teachers are nicely compensated in MOCO, and the county can therefore typically attract a more talented and high caliber workforce. I was getting ready to jump ship to another county where the cost of living is lower....however, the step increases have lured me to stay put. I have a doctorate, work a 12 month year, and will make $86,000 with 9 years of experience, once the raises kick in. I think this is a good salary, even when factoring in the high cost of living here. So yes, I definitely make more than than the average teacher in the nation but am on par or below other white collar professionals in the DC metro area. I don't understand the attack on teachers--do you want those who educate your children to not be fairly compensated? I think people have subscribed to the notion that certain helping professionals have no right to earn a decent income as perhaps they think it detracts from the "nobleness" of the field, and become outraged when there is evidence to the contrary. Teaching remains a highly feminized profession and I can't help but wonder if there are some underlying sexist notions at work as well, regarding women and monetary compensation.

So questioning whether raises are appropriate when no other county employees are receiving comparable increases constitutes an "attack" and a belief that teachers shodu not be "fairly compensated" is just absurd. It's a straw man. No one is arguing that teachers shouldn't been fairly compensated. Please stop trying to change the argument.

PP is not trying to change the argument. YOU just don't get it.

Again, what are your priorities? Would you rather spend your tax money housing prisoners or educating our youth?

tons of juvies out there, whether you want to acknowledge that or not
hundreds of gang members in your own backyard

I've seen my fair share of troubled kids saved by some good teachers. One, in fact, got a full ride to Princeton.

So you decide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do the teachers on here really not understand that the rest of us are NOT getting raises, "step" increases, cost of living raises, etc.? Do you not understand that many of us haven't seen any additional money in our paychecks for 4+ years; that we have to pay more money each month for our health insurance; that we don't get pensions; that we are expected to work more for not additional money? That is what many on this board are saying. We are living in this area, making no additional money, working hard, being "deserving" and all the rest...but we aren't getting any more money, so paying more hurts us a lot.

A little problem with time here, past vs. present. Sure, none of us got raises or step increases over the *past* few years. But as we pull out of the recession, more and more people are starting to get raises and step increases. Actually, not me, but others I know are starting to get raises again. So you think teachers should be the *last* to get raises, they should wait on line after everybody else?

Take a look at the recent jobs numbers and economic indicators. We aren't pulling out of the recession. If anything, we're about to re-enter another recession.

When one choses to work in the public sector then, yes, they will need to wait until revenue can justify additional expenditures to cover raises. Similarly, in a business, one must wait for sales/profits to increase before expecting a raise. That is just the way it works. It is basic economics.

To the PP who suggests, that parents can't expect their children to get a good education without providing these raises to the teachers. Baloney. That is extortion and not good faith. Can you imagine someone in the private sector demanding a raise when profits don't support it and then telling the boss to not expect quality work without such a raise. Any employer would fire that person so fast and fill the job with someone else. I think its time for public sector employees to get a grip and wake up to the economic realities that the rest of us live with at work.

To repeat: the point is, some people ARE starting to get raises again. I know some of them. Why should teachers be LAST on line?

No other County employees got true raises. They got a $2,000 one time bonus that doesn't bump the base. Everyone from Ike Leggett to the Counsel begged the School Board to do the same, because while things are getting a bit better, they are still shaky. So the teachers are by no means last. They aren't even equal. They got far more than anyone else.

[Anonymous]

Considering you don't have a school without teachers, it makes sense to compensate them as well as you can to recruit and retain the most qualified people you can.

Makes sense to me to give the teachers the raises.

[Anonymous]

We're not comparing teachers to firefighters, that's a total straw man.

We're asking whether wages are high enough to attract talent to this particular job. The burn-out rate is incredibly high, and really high percent leave for other careers after just a few years. So apparently, teacher wages aren't high enough.

[Anonymous]

MCPS has the highest teachers salaries in the area. They are higher then Fairfax. If MCPS has higher turnover rates than lower paying districts, then we probably have other problems besides a salary problem. Starr's works for the teacher's union, not parents or taxpayers. He is just paying off his bosses with this raise. Enough said.

Another point is that the school budget is a fixed amount. You either pay fewer teachers more money or you can pay more teachers lower money. The latter option will reduce class sizes. Lower class sizes is another approach to reducing teacher burnout.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MCPS has the highest teachers salaries in the area. They are higher then Fairfax. If MCPS has higher turnover rates than lower paying districts, then we probably have other problems besides a salary problem. Starr's works for the teacher's union, not parents or taxpayers. He is just paying off his bosses with this raise. Enough said.

Another point is that the school budget is a fixed amount. You either pay fewer teachers more money or you can pay more teachers lower money. The latter option will reduce class sizes. Lower class sizes is another approach to reducing teacher burnout.

When you do a comprehensive comparison that includes pensions and other bennies in along with salary, then we'll listen to you. Otherwise, I for one don't trust your comparison.

Do you realize how rediculous you look bringing in the union bogeyman all the time? "Eew! a union!" Enough said.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MCPS has the highest teachers salaries in the area. They are higher then Fairfax. If MCPS has higher turnover rates than lower paying districts, then we probably have other problems besides a salary problem. Starr's works for the teacher's union, not parents or taxpayers. He is just paying off his bosses with this raise. Enough said.

Another point is that the school budget is a fixed amount. You either pay fewer teachers more money or you can pay more teachers lower money. The latter option will reduce class sizes. Lower class sizes is another approach to reducing teacher burnout.

Teachers at your kids' private school get paid less than any of the public school districts in this area. This is because it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. There are lots of other things going on, like work atmosphere, education and certification requirements, benefits packages.

Also, it's hard to trust anything you say without a link, so links, please! Clearly you want to pay lower taxes because you've chosen other options for your kids, but IMO you can suck it. Also, the union-phobia makes you seem unhinged!

[Anonymous]

They can attract talent just fine. They had close to 10,000 applicants for school year 2010. Their attrition rate was 4.7% compared to a national teacher attrition rate is 27.7%.

http://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/content/council/olo/reports/pdf/3-14-11MCGandMCPSRecruitmentandRetentionv.5.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I have no problem with teachers being paid more than police or firefighters, based on education or a host of other factors. In fact, for the most part teachers in MoCo ARE better paid than police and FF. But that's not the issue here. The issue is, in a difficult economic climate, where many people in the private sector haven't received raises (and in fact have had salaries cut), AND where other municipal employees, including FF and cops, are not getting raises (but $2000 bonuses), why should teachers be treated differently? Would the population scream and holler if the cops, FF, and county offices cut services in order to give raises? You bet they would. But that's what is happening in schools.

The obvious answer, as a PP pointed out, is that the money had been allocated to the schools, and the internal budgeting process is at the superintendent's and Board's discretion (I think). So it's not like the same decisionmaker preferred teachers over other municipal employees. But regardless of who made the decision, the reality is that some employees who are paid by tax dollars got raises, while others didn't.

No one's saying teachers don't work hard, or deserve raises (well, at least I'm not). But working hard and deserving something isn't the end of the equation. The money has to be there, and the schools have decided reducing services is an acceptable tradeoff to finance the raises (whatever they are). Other government entities haven't made the same choice, and that's why people are puzzled (and perturbed) by this. Add to that people in the private sector who are working just as hard (if not harder) than they were 4 years ago, and who are making the same (or less) money, and whether you agree with it or not, the reaction is understandable.

No teacher is going to attempt to answer this?

Yes, here's the $86,000 educator answering this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/montgomery-county-police-officers-seeking-transfers-to-howard-county/2011/06/13/AGiLYIXH_story.html

Any public or private sector employee who hasn't seen raises in three years, is going to look elsewhere for other employment.....bottom line. If you want to retain your quality employees than you need to incentivize them....even public servants whose job is to help others, also need to provide for their own families. And for your information, Montgomery County public services across areas (education, police, library, parks, etc.) have been cut drastically in addition to employees not getting raises for several years.

And yes, it does also boil down to a numbers game. I believe the school system is one of the largest employers in Montgomery County...so educators do have a loud voice in the political process.

[Anonymous]

Here's the info the PP is recferring to:

2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
MCPS* 8.0% 6.9% 7.6% 7.9% 7.7% 7.6% 6.4% 4.7%
All Education** 23.5% 28.7% 25.1% 26.6% 28.8% 29.0% 27.6% 27.7%
*Fiscal year data
**Includes entire education sector (e.g., elementary, secondary, college, post-graduate, technical)
Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics Job Openings and Labor Turnover Survey; MCPS Staff Statistical

A couple of things the PP got wrong:
1. The MCPS data is for FISCAL YEAR. FY 2009 was from July 2008 through June 2009. This is BEFORE teachers gave up the 5.3% COLA in FY 10 and the step increases in FY 11 and 12.

2. All Education, as one can see above, includes EVERYTHING from elementary school teachers through technical school teachers. MCPS does not employ teachers in the college, post-grad, and technical school areas.

The lesson here is READ and UNDERSTAND before you post!

[Anonymous]

Here's the info the PP is recferring to:

2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
MCPS* 8.0% 6.9% 7.6% 7.9% 7.7% 7.6% 6.4% 4.7%
All Education** 23.5% 28.7% 25.1% 26.6% 28.8% 29.0% 27.6% 27.7%
*Fiscal year data
**Includes entire education sector (e.g., elementary, secondary, college, post-graduate, technical)
Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics Job Openings and Labor Turnover Survey; MCPS Staff Statistical

A couple of things the PP got wrong:
1. The MCPS data is for FISCAL YEAR. FY 2009 was from July 2008 through June 2009. This is BEFORE teachers gave up the 5.3% COLA in FY 10 and the step increases in FY 11 and 12.

2. All Education, as one can see above, includes EVERYTHING from elementary school teachers through technical school teachers. MCPS does not employ teachers in the college, post-grad, and technical school areas.

The lesson here is READ and UNDERSTAND before you post!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS has the highest teachers salaries in the area. They are higher then Fairfax. If MCPS has higher turnover rates than lower paying districts, then we probably have other problems besides a salary problem. Starr's works for the teacher's union, not parents or taxpayers. He is just paying off his bosses with this raise. Enough said.

Another point is that the school budget is a fixed amount. You either pay fewer teachers more money or you can pay more teachers lower money. The latter option will reduce class sizes. Lower class sizes is another approach to reducing teacher burnout.

When you do a comprehensive comparison that includes pensions and other bennies in along with salary, then we'll listen to you. Otherwise, I for one don't trust your comparison.

Do you realize how rediculous you look bringing in the union bogeyman all the time? "Eew! a union!" Enough said.

You are responding to my post. Just so you know, I support unions. I vote democrat. I am a parent and MCPS 'customer'. My problem is not with the union, but with the balance of power. The school board is completely union-endorsed through the apple ballot. This means that the union is negotiating with it's own candidates for salary and benefits. Do you really dispute this with me? The reason I bring this up is because I want people to see the connection between school budgeting and policy decisions and the school board. If you don't like the large raise that was just handed out, then you should not vote for apple ballot candidates. It's not that these candidates are boogeyman. It's that I disagree with them. I want more parent and taxpayer input, even if it is just 1 or 2 positions on the board in this election cycle.

As for your request for data, here is an example of the data I can see. Look on page 47 and you will see that MoCo spends $1400 more per pupil than Fairfax Co and that the average teacher salary is $9K more than Fairfax (this from 2010). You can also see from posts above mine that turnover in MCPS is low and that applications are plentiful. This disputes any notion that you need a raise to attract and retain talent.

http://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/content/council/olo/reports/pdf/2010-5.pdf

You can criticize this data, but I don't really have access to the data you want. I just have to work with what is available to me. If I am misinformed, It seems to me that the school board and teachers union should release more detailed data to help me understand their view. Instead I just hear Starr talk about how US News and World Report likes 5 of our high schools in wealthy neighborhoods. Unfortunately, however, the school board now has a reputation for holding back budget information from the County Council and for violating open meetings laws, so they do have to overcome that trust issue when they release data.

In the end, I don't see how you can argue away the influence of the union on the school board. You should just be happy that most voters seem to accept this arrangement. Just don't begrudge me for wanting to change it.