The wisdom of rewarding Montgomery’s school employees (Washington Post)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's the info the PP is recferring to:

2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
MCPS* 8.0% 6.9% 7.6% 7.9% 7.7% 7.6% 6.4% 4.7%
All Education** 23.5% 28.7% 25.1% 26.6% 28.8% 29.0% 27.6% 27.7%
*Fiscal year data
**Includes entire education sector (e.g., elementary, secondary, college, post-graduate, technical)
Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics Job Openings and Labor Turnover Survey; MCPS Staff Statistical

A couple of things the PP got wrong:
1. The MCPS data is for FISCAL YEAR. FY 2009 was from July 2008 through June 2009. This is BEFORE teachers gave up the 5.3% COLA in FY 10 and the step increases in FY 11 and 12.

2. All Education, as one can see above, includes EVERYTHING from elementary school teachers through technical school teachers. MCPS does not employ teachers in the college, post-grad, and technical school areas.

The lesson here is READ and UNDERSTAND before you post!

Why don't you or MCPS show data for FY11 and FY12 to make your point. I have to believe that MCPS has this data available for FY11 and FY12. If this story has changed in 2011 and 2012, please inform us with the facts. Parents don't control the data, MCPS has the data. Why didn't Starr use the updated data in his response? He had the opportunity. Until he does share the updated data, I guess we have to extrapolate with what we have. As for your point on 'All Education', that is just a helpful benchmark. Just saying that MCPS turnover is <10 percent seems low to me, but adding that it is lower than All Education is another nugget of imperfect information. So while your points are valid, I think this is still useful information. I also think MCPS should be sharing more data to justify their decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I have no problem with teachers being paid more than police or firefighters, based on education or a host of other factors. In fact, for the most part teachers in MoCo ARE better paid than police and FF. But that's not the issue here. The issue is, in a difficult economic climate, where many people in the private sector haven't received raises (and in fact have had salaries cut), AND where other municipal employees, including FF and cops, are not getting raises (but $2000 bonuses), why should teachers be treated differently? Would the population scream and holler if the cops, FF, and county offices cut services in order to give raises? You bet they would. But that's what is happening in schools.

The obvious answer, as a PP pointed out, is that the money had been allocated to the schools, and the internal budgeting process is at the superintendent's and Board's discretion (I think). So it's not like the same decisionmaker preferred teachers over other municipal employees. But regardless of who made the decision, the reality is that some employees who are paid by tax dollars got raises, while others didn't.

No one's saying teachers don't work hard, or deserve raises (well, at least I'm not). But working hard and deserving something isn't the end of the equation. The money has to be there, and the schools have decided reducing services is an acceptable tradeoff to finance the raises (whatever they are). Other government entities haven't made the same choice, and that's why people are puzzled (and perturbed) by this. Add to that people in the private sector who are working just as hard (if not harder) than they were 4 years ago, and who are making the same (or less) money, and whether you agree with it or not, the reaction is understandable.

No teacher is going to attempt to answer this?

Yes, here's the $86,000 educator answering this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/montgomery-county-police-officers-seeking-transfers-to-howard-county/2011/06/13/AGiLYIXH_story.html

Any public or private sector employee who hasn't seen raises in three years, is going to look elsewhere for other employment.....bottom line. If you want to retain your quality employees than you need to incentivize them....even public servants whose job is to help others, also need to provide for their own families. And for your information, Montgomery County public services across areas (education, police, library, parks, etc.) have been cut drastically in addition to employees not getting raises for several years.

And yes, it does also boil down to a numbers game. I believe the school system is one of the largest employers in Montgomery County...so educators do have a loud voice in the political process.

Not true. Many employees, many GREAT employees, choose to stay in jobs where they don't get raises because of a recession. Especially public sector jobs where thebenefits are great. This is my third recession while working. No one gets raises. Many people lose their jobs. Work place morale suffers. Virtually everywhere. You can possibly switch jobs (rough to do with high unemployment) and it's very likely the new employment has all the same problems related to lack of money. So you often give up much more than if you just stay and wait it out.

Historically, public sector employers don't incentivize during recessions. Public sector tries to continue to deliver core services. The county has to weigh horrible choices like paying for supplemental food programs for kids, maintaining bus routes that lower-income residents depend on to keep working, and services provided by police, fire, and education. Service delivery during times of economic crisis has to trump incentivizing employees. It just does. I haven't had a raise in three years, but inflation hasn't budged much in three years, either. I'm Ok. So many other people relying on County services are not. And I know it will get better. But if we start spending money willy nilly as a County, we are setting ourselves up for failure yet again. Teachers (or anyone) getting 7% when no one else is getting raises is insane and poor financial planning and management.

[Anonymous]

We're asking whether wages are high enough to attract talent to this particular job. The burn-out rate is incredibly high, and really high percent leave for other careers after just a few years. So apparently, teacher wages aren't high enough.

Raises are not a solution to burn out. Raises actually make the effect of burnout employees in the classroom worse not better. Teachers are burnt out because class sizes are too big, there are not enough aides, they are expected to do more and more administrative assessments, adopt 2.0 with little support for staff development or materials, defend 2.0 to angry parents even though the teachers can't stand 2.0 either, and become super teacher with expertise in all specialized subjects as those positions are let go. A raise will not address any of these issues and a raise only serves to retain people who are burn out.

I agree with others that the raises are really Starr's solution to keeping teacher's quiet about how MCPS is being run into the ground with this ridiculous curriculum, poor facilities, and lackluster educational strategy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They can attract talent just fine. They had close to 10,000 applicants for school year 2010. Their attrition rate was 4.7% compared to a national teacher attrition rate is 27.7%.

http://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/content/council/olo/reports/pdf/3-14-11MCGandMCPSRecruitmentandRetentionv.5.pdf

A turnover rate of about 5% seems great, especially when compared to the national average. Doesn't seem like MoCo teachers are deserting in droves.

[Anonymous]

I love this thread! For the first time in a long time, I actually hear parents standing up and saying "enough MCPS" and demanding that we have a voice in these important decisions. I believe the sound we're hearing is the sound of parents who want a voice at the table and want more for their children. Maybe it is time for a Parents Union in MCPS.

Way to go parents! I feel a bit of hope that if we all band together, we may actually create some positive change.

[Anonymous]

Where exactly are you seeing that, besides your own posts and maybe one other PP? The opposite is happening, people are puncturing holes in your bad statistics. (And I'll help out: anybody who knows even the most basic thing about statistics knows that data is usually released after a lag of one or more years, because reporting, collection and verification all take time. And how in the heck do you "have to believe that MCPS has data for FY2012" when FY 2012 won't even end until next September? How stupid are you?

I'm sorry property taxes are an annoyance to you because you send your kids to private school. Still, it's hard to understand the sock pupetting and obsession (for soneone with kids in private school, you've been ranting for days now). Yo
But you should care about raising an educated population generally. Plus, these public school kids you're willing to toss out the window will be paying for your Social Security and Medicare in the future, so it will work out for you.

[Anonymous]

What cracks me up is that most of you are complaining about the measly salary an MCPS teacher makes while your spouses are making $500 an hour as doctors or lawyers....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What cracks me up is that most of you are complaining about the measly salary an MCPS teacher makes while your spouses are making $500 an hour as doctors or lawyers....

You're an asshole.

My husband is also a teacher.

So fuck off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love this thread! For the first time in a long time, I actually hear parents standing up and saying "enough MCPS" and demanding that we have a voice in these important decisions. I believe the sound we're hearing is the sound of parents who want a voice at the table and want more for their children. Maybe it is time for a Parents Union in MCPS.

Way to go parents! I feel a bit of hope that if we all band together, we may actually create some positive change.

What exactly do you want?

[Anonymous]

For the needs of the students to come first (smaller class size, thoughtful curriculum, excellent pay for excellent teachers (not across-the-board raises). That would be a great start.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Where exactly are you seeing that, besides your own posts and maybe one other PP? The opposite is happening, people are puncturing holes in your bad statistics. (And I'll help out: anybody who knows even the most basic thing about statistics knows that data is usually released after a lag of one or more years, because reporting, collection and verification all take time. And how in the heck do you "have to believe that MCPS has data for FY2012" when FY 2012 won't even end until next September? How stupid are you?

I'm sorry property taxes are an annoyance to you because you send your kids to private school. Still, it's hard to understand the sock pupetting and obsession (for soneone with kids in private school, you've been ranting for days now). Yo
But you should care about raising an educated population generally. Plus, these public school kids you're willing to toss out the window will be paying for your Social Security and Medicare in the future, so it will work out for you.

Nice try. I'm the Pp you are referring to and this was a new and genuine post. I have not been sock puppeting or posting anything related to the fiscal year data and, oh yes, my children attend MCPS. So you are entirely off base. Try it with someone else.

[Anonymous]

She wants validation (the sock puppetting). She wishes she had taken at least one Econ course in college.

She wants abolition of unions because employer monopsony (look it up) is a "good" thing. She wants a tax break because she cant afford the mortgage on her McMansion. She doesn't care about feral children on Metro because she w

[Anonymous]

^^^ because she would never ride that "tacky" metro.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What cracks me up is that most of you are complaining about the measly salary an MCPS teacher makes while your spouses are making $500 an hour as doctors or lawyers....

You're an asshole.

My husband is also a teacher.

So fuck off.

So what do you earn that you can afford private school tuition? (And we all know schools give little or no break to teachers' kids.) No wonder you're *desperate* for a tax break and willing to screw everyone else.

Not that I believe the teacher bit, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For the needs of the students to come first (smaller class size, thoughtful curriculum, excellent pay for excellent teachers (not across-the-board raises). That would be a great start.

Teacher here (I have posted earlier in this thread).

First, I totally agree with the parents that they want more done and good for you that you do. I would LOVE a parent union in MCPS (I will be an MCPS parent next year as well). There is a lot the county is doing wrong, especially with curriculum, not keeping students back who haven't mastered skills, class size, etc. Fight the good fight. It is the higher ups you want to take it to. The teachers are following their lead - believe me, there is nothing we can do on our end.

However, you want to be very careful about the "excellent pay for excellent teachers" theory. it is impossible to prove this. Everyone wants to base "excellent teaching" off of results (test scores, grades) but then you will get 1. a bunch of teachers teaching to the test and 2. grade inflation.

In addition, you have a million factors that go into what each teacher has to deal with. What is her classroom population like? What time of day is she teaching (yes, this matters, just ask a teacher)? Does s/he have that ONE kid who sucks the learning away from everyone else in the room? There are just way too many variables to be able to grade teachers "across the board". While it would be great to be able to prove which teachers "deserve" a raise, it is impossible (and I am the teacher who said before that you can ask each teacher in the school to name the bottom three, and they could - mostly due to classroom management, but I don't know how you manage salaries that way without being completely unfair).