The wisdom of rewarding Montgomery’s school employees (Washington Post)

[Anonymous]

I am for our kids. I support the principle that my taxes support the education of our children in the public system. While the grade assignments work for many kids it doesn't for my kids. Since my kids are required to stay in their assigned grade classrooms even though they are 3 to 4 grade levels above the current MCPS standards and cannot place out or test out, can we get a refund? For the kids for whom MCPS cannot accommodate (e.g., math) can citizens op out? We will gladly invest the refunded $12,000/kid/yr (this is a back of the envelope calculation) for other alternatives. This is a win win situation for both parties.

This is a slightly different question. I agree, MPCS doesn't serve the kids who are in the top 90-95% and something needs to be done. Many, many MoCo kids are 3-4 grade levels above the current MCPS standards. Magnet kids are 7-8 grade levels above MCPS standards, or more. Possible answers include charters (I would support) or refunding your taxes to you so you can go private (I wouldn't support, because only rich families would be able to top up the $12K to afford $35K at private). But these are separate questions from "should we pay MoCo teachers a decent salary to teach the majority of kids" and maybe deserve a different thread.

I disagree. MCPS aprox. $2 billion budget. Finds a way to give teachers a 7% raise but can't find a way to meet the needs of 90 to 95% of our children so they are stuck in a system they pay for for a decade? Does allowing these able and capable students to appropriately advance in certain subjects (e.g., math ) wipe out the MCPS budget? Does it add anything to the budget? How much has mcps saved by the elimination of math pathways and the prohibition of any upward movement? The MCPS leadership is paid handsomely. I want to know how much MCPS saves, if any, by this prohibition for a subject (math) that is the essential gateway in our technological age we live in? On a different note, are children that are not performing allowed to move down (e.g., math)? Is the prohibition in both directions on the pathway?

[Anonymous]

Really, the school system doesn't serve 90-95% of the students? That has not been our experience at all. My DC is at a top MCPS high school and I think is being very well served, as are most of the other kids in the school of 2000 kids. Seems like the people we know at other Bethesda and Potomac high schools are also being well served. So that's close to 9000-10000 kids. Way more when you count the feeder ES and MS. That's got to be more than 5% of the total. I assume at least some kids in the rest of the county are also well served.

[Anonymous]

Really, the school system doesn't serve 90-95% of the students? That has not been our experience at all. My DC is at a top MCPS high school and I think is being very well served, as are most of the other kids in the school of 2000 kids. Seems like the people we know at other Bethesda and Potomac high schools are also being well served. So that's close to 9000-10000 kids. Way more when you count the feeder ES and MS. That's got to be more than 5% of the total. I assume at least some kids in the rest of the county are also well served.

I think the poster was referring to the top 10% of MCPS students or students above the 90th percentile. This was my interpretation of the post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Really, the school system doesn't serve 90-95% of the students? That has not been our experience at all. My DC is at a top MCPS high school and I think is being very well served, as are most of the other kids in the school of 2000 kids. Seems like the people we know at other Bethesda and Potomac high schools are also being well served. So that's close to 9000-10000 kids. Way more when you count the feeder ES and MS. That's got to be more than 5% of the total. I assume at least some kids in the rest of the county are also well served.

I think the poster was referring to the top 10% of MCPS students or students above the 90th percentile. This was my interpretation of the post.

Yes, this is what I meant and what I said. The "90-95th percentile" is a completely different concept from "90-95% of kids." The 90-95th percentile kids are the kids who are above average but don't make it into the magnets.

Signed, the economist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is my response to Dr. Starr

1. MoCo already pays more than other school systems for teachers, why bid 107 for teachers, when 100 will do.

Gotta point out the hypocrisy of this. You're arguing that it's an employer's market, so MoCo should use its unilateral power to set wages. And at the same time you're whining about teacher unions. Nice!

I am pointing out facts. Would you pay more for your house because you think that person is sympathetic?

I actually support unions, however, I wish taxpayers an parents were betting represented in school decisions. I don't like that voters give the entire school board over to the union. The union negotiating with itself will obviously lead to these kinds of pay raises. I support MoCo having the highest paid teachers in this area. I don't support this. I believe that at some point, this will lead to higher class sizes or higher taxes, probably a combination of both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is my response to Dr. Starr

1. MoCo already pays more than other school systems for teachers, why bid 107 for teachers, when 100 will do.

Gotta point out the hypocrisy of this. You're arguing that it's an employer's market, so MoCo should use its unilateral power to set wages. And at the same time you're whining about teacher unions. Nice!

I am pointing out facts. Would you pay more for your house because you think that person is sympathetic?

I actually support unions, however, I wish taxpayers an parents were betting represented in school decisions. I don't like that voters give the entire school board over to the union. The union negotiating with itself will obviously lead to these kinds of pay raises. I support MoCo having the highest paid teachers in this area. I don't support this. I believe that at some point, this will lead to higher class sizes or higher taxes, probably a combination of both.

Typo - This should have read

I actually support unions, however, I wish taxpayers an parents were better represented in school decisions. I don't like that voters give the entire school board over to the union. The union negotiating with itself will obviously lead to these kinds of pay raises. I support MoCo having the highest paid teachers in this area. I don't support this. I believe that at some point, this will lead to higher class sizes or higher taxes, probably a combination of both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Really, the school system doesn't serve 90-95% of the students? That has not been our experience at all. My DC is at a top MCPS high school and I think is being very well served, as are most of the other kids in the school of 2000 kids. Seems like the people we know at other Bethesda and Potomac high schools are also being well served. So that's close to 9000-10000 kids. Way more when you count the feeder ES and MS. That's got to be more than 5% of the total. I assume at least some kids in the rest of the county are also well served.

I think the poster was referring to the top 10% of MCPS students or students above the 90th percentile. This was my interpretation of the post.

Yes, this is what I meant and what I said. The "90-95th percentile" is a completely different concept from "90-95% of kids." The 90-95th percentile kids are the kids who are above average but don't make it into the magnets.

Signed, the economist

Actually you wrote % not percentile, and another poster also interpreted that as 90-95% of kids. But I still disagree as my DC is probably in that zone (maybe a little higher based on SATs) and is not in a magnet and is well served at our home school. And there are kids above and below but still in the top percentile range who are well served.

I am not opposed to the pay raises. I do wish class sizes could at least go back to where they were a couple of years ago.

[Anonymous]

Actually you wrote % not percentile, and another poster also interpreted that as 90-95% of kids. But I still disagree as my DC is probably in that zone (maybe a little higher based on SATs) and is not in a magnet and is well served at our home school. And there are kids above and below but still in the top percentile range who are well served.

Students can be on grade level and have high SATs (Math component only prealgebra, algebra, probability and geometry necessary for perfect 800), For many this is done by 8th or 9th grade.

[Anonymous]

If some of you didn't understand the original post, which said "top 90-95%," then you're not very bright. Sorry. And both my kids are in magnets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I am pointing out facts. Would you pay more for your house because you think that person is sympathetic?

No, I'd pay more for my house because it's in MoCo not Iowa. Same with teachers who have to live in MoCo not Iowa. These are the "facts" and sympathy has nothing to do with it.

[Anonymous]

I must be in the minority but I agree with the pay raises. Teachers are asked to do so much and with less and less resources each year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I am for our kids. I support the principle that my taxes support the education of our children in the public system. While the grade assignments work for many kids it doesn't for my kids. Since my kids are required to stay in their assigned grade classrooms even though they are 3 to 4 grade levels above the current MCPS standards and cannot place out or test out, can we get a refund? For the kids for whom MCPS cannot accommodate (e.g., math) can citizens op out? We will gladly invest the refunded $12,000/kid/yr (this is a back of the envelope calculation) for other alternatives. This is a win win situation for both parties.

This is a slightly different question. I agree, MPCS doesn't serve the kids who are in the top 90-95% and something needs to be done. Many, many MoCo kids are 3-4 grade levels above the current MCPS standards. Magnet kids are 7-8 grade levels above MCPS standards, or more. Possible answers include charters (I would support) or refunding your taxes to you so you can go private (I wouldn't support, because only rich families would be able to top up the $12K to afford $35K at private). But these are separate questions from "should we pay MoCo teachers a decent salary to teach the majority of kids" and maybe deserve a different thread.

I disagree. MCPS aprox. $2 billion budget. Finds a way to give teachers a 7% raise but can't find a way to meet the needs of 90 to 95% of our children so they are stuck in a system they pay for for a decade? Does allowing these able and capable students to appropriately advance in certain subjects (e.g., math ) wipe out the MCPS budget? Does it add anything to the budget? How much has mcps saved by the elimination of math pathways and the prohibition of any upward movement? The MCPS leadership is paid handsomely. I want to know how much MCPS saves, if any, by this prohibition for a subject (math) that is the essential gateway in our technological age we live in? On a different note, are children that are not performing allowed to move down (e.g., math)? Is the prohibition in both directions on the pathway?

Question for "the economist" how many of our children in the top 90-95th percentile don't get into magnets? Top 90-95th percentile by what measure, in what subject? I hope "economists" are better able to define the numbers they throw around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here are my answers to you:

Anonymous wrote:

1. MoCo already pays more than other school systems for teachers, why bid 107 for teachers, when 100 will do.

MoCo is one of the most expensive places to live in the nation. Already many teachers are commuting to Bethesda from Columbia. It's not defensible to pay them Iowa wages.

Anonymous wrote:
2. Many MoCo Taxpayers have not seen raises the last 3 years. My company has not given raises, Federal employees haven't received a raise, other county workers haven't received a raise. What makes teachers so special.

Most taxpayers are starting to get raises now the economy is on the rebound. So why can't the teachers join in? Or are you saying they can't participate in the economic recovery the rest of us are enjoying?

Anonymous wrote:This all said, let me point out that I am happy to have MoCo pay teachers more than any other school system in the area. I think our teachers do a great job. I just think the system is going in the wrong direction and this pay raise was the wrong signal to send. It pretty clearly lays out the case that the union is in charge.

Stop with the union bogeyman already. This is about paying a decent salary to attract talented professionals to give our children the best education possible. The children who will be paying for your Social Security when you are old and decrepit.

I disagree that we pay 'Iowa' wages. Teachers are the highest paid in the area. This link below says that Iowa starting pay is $27K, Maryland is $37K and that Maryland is in the top 10 for teacher salaries (6 for starting salary and 9th for average salary). I would surmise that MoCo is higher than the average Maryland salary, is that fair? This is my point. We play teachers great. I really don't think you can say teachers are not supported. Here is the link I mention ( I just googled it),

http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

As for Columbia commutes, I think where you live is a choice. Obviously, not everyone can live in the most expensive areas of our region (that is why it is expensive). If housing is important to a person, they probably should not become a teacher or they need to accept less housing in the expensive areas. I am sorry, but teachers will always be outbid by law firm partners and top scientists. There may be other reasons one lives in Columbia too.

I strongly disagree that most people are receiving wage increases. The recovery is extremely weak. We still have way fewer jobs now than at the start of the recession. Workforce participation has been extremely low due to lack of available jobs. People are just giving up. The White House is proposing a 0.5% increase in he 2013 budget for Federal Workers (MoCo has a lot of Federal Employees) and I would not be surprised if Republicans deny that increase. This is not even close to the 7% increases proposed for teachers. Can you cite some facts to balance out this story? I don't think you can.

Finally, with respect to the union bogeyman you mention. My point is that the union controls the budget. Does anyone really dispute this? MoCo votes for an apple ballot BOE all the time. This is democratic and fair. I don't like it, but it is the situation. I wish the union would be honest and just own these decisions. I don't begrudge them pushing an agenda. I disagree with it, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Actually you wrote % not percentile, and another poster also interpreted that as 90-95% of kids. But I still disagree as my DC is probably in that zone (maybe a little higher based on SATs) and is not in a magnet and is well served at our home school. And there are kids above and below but still in the top percentile range who are well served.

Students can be on grade level and have high SATs (Math component only prealgebra, algebra, probability and geometry necessary for perfect 800), For many this is done by 8th or 9th grade.

Okay, then you define the metrics that define these 90-95%ile kids. And I am pretty sure the "on grade level" kids at our school are not getting 800s on the SATs.

And I don't think all these kids are in magnets. There are very few real magnets and they serve a tiny fraction of the kids so many smart kids are in their home school. Our W school is full of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here is my response to Dr. Starr

1. MoCo already pays more than other school systems for teachers, why bid 107 for teachers, when 100 will do.

2. Many MoCo Taxpayers have not seen raises the last 3 years. My company has not given raises, Federal employees haven't received a raise, other county workers haven't received a raise. What makes teachers so special.

huh

Then explain why my friend - who's a GS13 - just received a $2000 bonus, plus time off.

3. Stop taking credit for educating the kids of all of the phds, lawyers, doctors, and other highly educated folks in Potomac, Bethesda, North Bethesda. Bring Einstein and other 'red zone' schools in the top 100 and then I will give you credit.

I teach seniors in a "red zone" school who are walking this year because of my help. These are mainly ESOL and special ed kids. I've worked with hundreds over the past two years who struggled during their high school career.

4. Don't generalize parents view because I am not happy.


This all said, let me point out that I am happy to have MoCo pay teachers more than any other school system in the area. I think our teachers do a great job. I just think the system is going in the wrong direction and this pay raise was the wrong signal to send. It pretty clearly lays out the case that the union is in charge.

I deserve my pay raise. My CHILDREN do, too. So while you sit back and sip your coffee at your desk, getting up to use the restroom when you please, think about ignorant you sound when you have no idea what it's like to work with kids from broken homes who struggle not only in school - but at home.