where would Williams and Amherst rank in the ivy league..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The opportunities are nowhere near competitive enough. DD was able to work at Yale law during the summer and get funding to examine legal theory across 5 different countries with an experienced, decorated law faculty member. During the school year, she has a grant to do bioethics policy work with a New York think tank that reached out to Yale for students, leads a club where she’s able to invite major speakers in ethics and other philosophy faculty, and was able to take a course in the SOM to fulfill her interest in bioethics. At Williams, she could’ve gone to class and taken a wide range of philosophy courses unrelated to her interest and maybe joined/started a club.

Her friends at LACs are academically impressive but that’s about it. They don’t have the experiences that signal impact. At best, they can get into an REU hosted at an institution like my daughters.

I have a kid at Yale (freshman) and Wiliams (junior) so maybe I can speak about this a little. They're both terrific.

Yale has more of a wow factor when you talk to your friends. No doubt. And they have big name speakers on campus every week. I like what a bigger school provides ie more dining options etc, but that's not a Yale thing. Would have been more food options are Syracuse etc. The kids are happy, lots of connections if you want them, lots to do on weekends (although more frat life than I realized)

The downside is the very competitive club culture. If you get into the top finance (theater, law, political, improv black) etc club, then you're on easy street. But the top finance club takes 12 kids (per year) and 2000 applied this year. So you try to get into the top 3 clubs and that can be hard too. My kid was applying to clubs nonstop and got into a good one and a couple okay ones. It's competitive. You have to be good at xyz if you want to get into the xyz club.

Williams can be an unknown to your friends, but not employers. Fewer resources on campus, fewer big names, fewer dining halls, fewer parties on weekends (but there are some, every weekend) and you're tucked away for a long winter. Those are the downsides. Upsides: more of a personal connection to teacher (ie they make calls for you). There are a ton of nepo kids there which has been an upside -- roomies dad can get you a summer gig at Blackstone. And the alumni network is very receptive. Reaching out to a rando on LinkedIn who went to yale would be weird. at Williams, totally normal. Also, you can do ANYTHING. Never done improv, who cares. Never looked at a P&L statement, you can do the January term at a hedge fund and get an internship from that.

They're very different with different ways of accessing opportunities. But both great.

So, in many words, Yale is a lot better experience than Williams. Kids can’t definitely reach out to Yale alum, particularly for referrals. That’s a normal thing at any school. Winter study seems to just be a “laughable” experience, according to Williams faculty, https://williamsrecord.com/465133/news/college-to-reevaluate-winter-study-in-the-face-of-faculty-discontent/

It honestly sounds like there aren’t resources at Williams if you have to rely on your roommate to get a job. I think it’s great and all to do improv club, but that can be done at a community college.

I'm sorry I've painted that picture if that's what you got out of it. But I'm not going to invest more time though so I'll leave you with your thoughts.. Both my kids are happy! Kid at Williams already has a summer internship at Jane Street (via on campus recruiting). Kid at Yale super happy too. Neither of my kids did improv - but looks fun.

By name dropping Jane Street you lost all credibility. You were doing so well. Anyone whose kid was actually working there wouldn’t mention it by name.

Jane Street is a great place. But it is also one of the few funds that DMV soccer mom has actually heard of so gets mentioned way too much around here.

Please stop trying so hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The opportunities are nowhere near competitive enough. DD was able to work at Yale law during the summer and get funding to examine legal theory across 5 different countries with an experienced, decorated law faculty member. During the school year, she has a grant to do bioethics policy work with a New York think tank that reached out to Yale for students, leads a club where she’s able to invite major speakers in ethics and other philosophy faculty, and was able to take a course in the SOM to fulfill her interest in bioethics. At Williams, she could’ve gone to class and taken a wide range of philosophy courses unrelated to her interest and maybe joined/started a club.

Her friends at LACs are academically impressive but that’s about it. They don’t have the experiences that signal impact. At best, they can get into an REU hosted at an institution like my daughters.

You have to be out of your mind if you think that top SLAC students don't get summer opportunities equal to those at ivies. Often they do research at Ivies, taking seats that I am sure some Ivy parent felt belonged to their child. My kid did a research summer at Penn. She got it because a Penn reached out to her inquiring about interest. They reached out because their SLAC professor got their PHD at Penn and they sent an unsolicited email suggesting my kid. That is what you get at a top SLAC.

Or you could go to Penn and get these offers all the time.

Probably not because you were taught by a TA who really didn't care and the professor doesn't know you or really care to. But that same professor will do a solid for a former star from their lab.

Oh, so you’re just jealous and couldn’t get into an Ivy. It’s really embarrassing seeing people guess the experiences at these colleges and be so far off.

I did my undergrad at a public and went to an Ivy for grad school. It's not a guess at all.

My kid goes to Penn and doesn’t get taught by tas almost ever. When were you last at Penn? This has not been his experience and seems purposefully distorted.

I didn't go to Penn, I went to a different Ivy for grad school. If your kid was a STEM major or at Wharton they were mostly taught by TAs for their first two years even if a professor delivered the lecture. For upper division classes they would be taught by mostly Assistant Professors and ABD PHD students teaching seminars but they will have opportunities to take classes from Tenured Faculty as well. It's not a bad education at a top Private but it isn't the exclusively taught by Professors environment experienced by those at top SLACs. If I knew at 16 what I know know I would have tried to go to a good SLAC if I could have found a way to afford it. My own experience is proof that you can get it done from any undergraduate path but I do think that some are better than others.

A few things.

Lecture being taught by professor means you are being taught by a professor.

Many LACs hire adjunct faculty who are ABD to teach, particularly outside of their “leading” programs in Math, Economics, or Government.

Going through Penn’s physics course catalog for upper division courses, most classes are taught by tenure track faculty- a majority already tenured.

1. A class is 3 hours (3 50-minute periods). If prof gives 2 lectures and TA does 1 discussion section, TA is teaching 1/3 of the class (and doing almost all the grading and equal office hours, so it is more like 40%). Compare that to the prof teaching all 3 hours, grading everything etc. — for only 20 students.

2. Top SLACs don’t have ABDs teach.

Yeah they do? Adjunct lecturers at all the top lacs.

[Anonymous]

Williams and Amherst aren't proper universities. They don't have meaningful programs in engineering or science. They don't have graduate schools where serious research is conducted. They don't have PhD programs. Or med schools. Nor do they have professional law or business schools.

Comparing a Williams or Amherst with a Harvard or Cornell is a useless exercise. They are not remotely the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The opportunities are nowhere near competitive enough. DD was able to work at Yale law during the summer and get funding to examine legal theory across 5 different countries with an experienced, decorated law faculty member. During the school year, she has a grant to do bioethics policy work with a New York think tank that reached out to Yale for students, leads a club where she’s able to invite major speakers in ethics and other philosophy faculty, and was able to take a course in the SOM to fulfill her interest in bioethics. At Williams, she could’ve gone to class and taken a wide range of philosophy courses unrelated to her interest and maybe joined/started a club.

Her friends at LACs are academically impressive but that’s about it. They don’t have the experiences that signal impact. At best, they can get into an REU hosted at an institution like my daughters.

You have to be out of your mind if you think that top SLAC students don't get summer opportunities equal to those at ivies. Often they do research at Ivies, taking seats that I am sure some Ivy parent felt belonged to their child. My kid did a research summer at Penn. She got it because a Penn reached out to her inquiring about interest. They reached out because their SLAC professor got their PHD at Penn and they sent an unsolicited email suggesting my kid. That is what you get at a top SLAC.

Or you could go to Penn and get these offers all the time.

Probably not because you were taught by a TA who really didn't care and the professor doesn't know you or really care to. But that same professor will do a solid for a former star from their lab.

Oh, so you’re just jealous and couldn’t get into an Ivy. It’s really embarrassing seeing people guess the experiences at these colleges and be so far off.

I did my undergrad at a public and went to an Ivy for grad school. It's not a guess at all.

My kid goes to Penn and doesn’t get taught by tas almost ever. When were you last at Penn? This has not been his experience and seems purposefully distorted.

I didn't go to Penn, I went to a different Ivy for grad school. If your kid was a STEM major or at Wharton they were mostly taught by TAs for their first two years even if a professor delivered the lecture. For upper division classes they would be taught by mostly Assistant Professors and ABD PHD students teaching seminars but they will have opportunities to take classes from Tenured Faculty as well. It's not a bad education at a top Private but it isn't the exclusively taught by Professors environment experienced by those at top SLACs. If I knew at 16 what I know know I would have tried to go to a good SLAC if I could have found a way to afford it. My own experience is proof that you can get it done from any undergraduate path but I do think that some are better than others.

A few things.

Lecture being taught by professor means you are being taught by a professor.

Many LACs hire adjunct faculty who are ABD to teach, particularly outside of their “leading” programs in Math, Economics, or Government.

Going through Penn’s physics course catalog for upper division courses, most classes are taught by tenure track faculty- a majority already tenured.

1. A class is 3 hours (3 50-minute periods). If prof gives 2 lectures and TA does 1 discussion section, TA is teaching 1/3 of the class (and doing almost all the grading and equal office hours, so it is more like 40%). Compare that to the prof teaching all 3 hours, grading everything etc. — for only 20 students.

2. Top SLACs don’t have ABDs teach.

Amherst college is currently hiring a Visiting Lecturer in Chinese Language:

A Ph.D. degree is preferred, and a master’s degree is required. Interested candidates are asked to provide a cover letter, curriculum vitae, three confidential letters of recommendation, and a personal statement outlining their philosophy of language teaching electronically at…

so they definitely will hire ABDs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The opportunities are nowhere near competitive enough. DD was able to work at Yale law during the summer and get funding to examine legal theory across 5 different countries with an experienced, decorated law faculty member. During the school year, she has a grant to do bioethics policy work with a New York think tank that reached out to Yale for students, leads a club where she’s able to invite major speakers in ethics and other philosophy faculty, and was able to take a course in the SOM to fulfill her interest in bioethics. At Williams, she could’ve gone to class and taken a wide range of philosophy courses unrelated to her interest and maybe joined/started a club.

Her friends at LACs are academically impressive but that’s about it. They don’t have the experiences that signal impact. At best, they can get into an REU hosted at an institution like my daughters.

You have to be out of your mind if you think that top SLAC students don't get summer opportunities equal to those at ivies. Often they do research at Ivies, taking seats that I am sure some Ivy parent felt belonged to their child. My kid did a research summer at Penn. She got it because a Penn reached out to her inquiring about interest. They reached out because their SLAC professor got their PHD at Penn and they sent an unsolicited email suggesting my kid. That is what you get at a top SLAC.

Or you could go to Penn and get these offers all the time.

Probably not because you were taught by a TA who really didn't care and the professor doesn't know you or really care to. But that same professor will do a solid for a former star from their lab.

Oh, so you’re just jealous and couldn’t get into an Ivy. It’s really embarrassing seeing people guess the experiences at these colleges and be so far off.

I did my undergrad at a public and went to an Ivy for grad school. It's not a guess at all.

My kid goes to Penn and doesn’t get taught by tas almost ever. When were you last at Penn? This has not been his experience and seems purposefully distorted.

I didn't go to Penn, I went to a different Ivy for grad school. If your kid was a STEM major or at Wharton they were mostly taught by TAs for their first two years even if a professor delivered the lecture. For upper division classes they would be taught by mostly Assistant Professors and ABD PHD students teaching seminars but they will have opportunities to take classes from Tenured Faculty as well. It's not a bad education at a top Private but it isn't the exclusively taught by Professors environment experienced by those at top SLACs. If I knew at 16 what I know know I would have tried to go to a good SLAC if I could have found a way to afford it. My own experience is proof that you can get it done from any undergraduate path but I do think that some are better than others.

A few things.

Lecture being taught by professor means you are being taught by a professor.

Many LACs hire adjunct faculty who are ABD to teach, particularly outside of their “leading” programs in Math, Economics, or Government.

Going through Penn’s physics course catalog for upper division courses, most classes are taught by tenure track faculty- a majority already tenured.

1. A class is 3 hours (3 50-minute periods). If prof gives 2 lectures and TA does 1 discussion section, TA is teaching 1/3 of the class (and doing almost all the grading and equal office hours, so it is more like 40%). Compare that to the prof teaching all 3 hours, grading everything etc. — for only 20 students.

2. Top SLACs don’t have ABDs teach.

Amherst college is currently hiring a Visiting Lecturer in Chinese Language:

A Ph.D. degree is preferred, and a master’s degree is required. Interested candidates are asked to provide a cover letter, curriculum vitae, three confidential letters of recommendation, and a personal statement outlining their philosophy of language teaching electronically at…

so they definitely will hire ABDs.

Nope. Not unless Ph.D expected to be completed before teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure, I guess. But with such extraordinarily selective schools, who really cares?

Williams and Amherst, and many other SLACS, are fantastic schools but they would rank lower than any of the Ivies in a head to head competition due to the lack of comparable science and engineering resources. They aren't really comparable which is why they are separately ranked.

Yes, and they would beat the Ivies for quality of UG education. Agree they are apples and oranges.

You sound unhinged.

I don’t even agree with the previous comment but nothing about it was unhinged. So weird how people just throw this term around for anything.

It’s unhinged bc the OP is taking two SLACs and trying to solicit input from strangers aa to where they would fit in with ivies. It is irrelvant:

- they are not ivies
- ivies are not SLACs
- SLACs and ivies are not clumped or evaluated together
- it won’t make her or anyone else think differently about an ivy or SLAC

Worthless and meaningless exercise. That’s why

The “you sound unhinged” comment was not in response to OP, but another commenter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The opportunities are nowhere near competitive enough. DD was able to work at Yale law during the summer and get funding to examine legal theory across 5 different countries with an experienced, decorated law faculty member. During the school year, she has a grant to do bioethics policy work with a New York think tank that reached out to Yale for students, leads a club where she’s able to invite major speakers in ethics and other philosophy faculty, and was able to take a course in the SOM to fulfill her interest in bioethics. At Williams, she could’ve gone to class and taken a wide range of philosophy courses unrelated to her interest and maybe joined/started a club.

Her friends at LACs are academically impressive but that’s about it. They don’t have the experiences that signal impact. At best, they can get into an REU hosted at an institution like my daughters.

You have to be out of your mind if you think that top SLAC students don't get summer opportunities equal to those at ivies. Often they do research at Ivies, taking seats that I am sure some Ivy parent felt belonged to their child. My kid did a research summer at Penn. She got it because a Penn reached out to her inquiring about interest. They reached out because their SLAC professor got their PHD at Penn and they sent an unsolicited email suggesting my kid. That is what you get at a top SLAC.

Or you could go to Penn and get these offers all the time.

Probably not because you were taught by a TA who really didn't care and the professor doesn't know you or really care to. But that same professor will do a solid for a former star from their lab.

Oh, so you’re just jealous and couldn’t get into an Ivy. It’s really embarrassing seeing people guess the experiences at these colleges and be so far off.

I did my undergrad at a public and went to an Ivy for grad school. It's not a guess at all.

My kid goes to Penn and doesn’t get taught by tas almost ever. When were you last at Penn? This has not been his experience and seems purposefully distorted.

I didn't go to Penn, I went to a different Ivy for grad school. If your kid was a STEM major or at Wharton they were mostly taught by TAs for their first two years even if a professor delivered the lecture. For upper division classes they would be taught by mostly Assistant Professors and ABD PHD students teaching seminars but they will have opportunities to take classes from Tenured Faculty as well. It's not a bad education at a top Private but it isn't the exclusively taught by Professors environment experienced by those at top SLACs. If I knew at 16 what I know know I would have tried to go to a good SLAC if I could have found a way to afford it. My own experience is proof that you can get it done from any undergraduate path but I do think that some are better than others.

A few things.

Lecture being taught by professor means you are being taught by a professor.

Many LACs hire adjunct faculty who are ABD to teach, particularly outside of their “leading” programs in Math, Economics, or Government.

Going through Penn’s physics course catalog for upper division courses, most classes are taught by tenure track faculty- a majority already tenured.

1. A class is 3 hours (3 50-minute periods). If prof gives 2 lectures and TA does 1 discussion section, TA is teaching 1/3 of the class (and doing almost all the grading and equal office hours, so it is more like 40%). Compare that to the prof teaching all 3 hours, grading everything etc. — for only 20 students.

2. Top SLACs don’t have ABDs teach.

Amherst college is currently hiring a Visiting Lecturer in Chinese Language:

A Ph.D. degree is preferred, and a master’s degree is required. Interested candidates are asked to provide a cover letter, curriculum vitae, three confidential letters of recommendation, and a personal statement outlining their philosophy of language teaching electronically at…

so they definitely will hire ABDs.

Nope. Not unless Ph.D expected to be completed before teaching.

You really struggle with dealing with reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The opportunities are nowhere near competitive enough. DD was able to work at Yale law during the summer and get funding to examine legal theory across 5 different countries with an experienced, decorated law faculty member. During the school year, she has a grant to do bioethics policy work with a New York think tank that reached out to Yale for students, leads a club where she’s able to invite major speakers in ethics and other philosophy faculty, and was able to take a course in the SOM to fulfill her interest in bioethics. At Williams, she could’ve gone to class and taken a wide range of philosophy courses unrelated to her interest and maybe joined/started a club.

Her friends at LACs are academically impressive but that’s about it. They don’t have the experiences that signal impact. At best, they can get into an REU hosted at an institution like my daughters.

You have to be out of your mind if you think that top SLAC students don't get summer opportunities equal to those at ivies. Often they do research at Ivies, taking seats that I am sure some Ivy parent felt belonged to their child. My kid did a research summer at Penn. She got it because a Penn reached out to her inquiring about interest. They reached out because their SLAC professor got their PHD at Penn and they sent an unsolicited email suggesting my kid. That is what you get at a top SLAC.

Or you could go to Penn and get these offers all the time.

Probably not because you were taught by a TA who really didn't care and the professor doesn't know you or really care to. But that same professor will do a solid for a former star from their lab.

Oh, so you’re just jealous and couldn’t get into an Ivy. It’s really embarrassing seeing people guess the experiences at these colleges and be so far off.

I did my undergrad at a public and went to an Ivy for grad school. It's not a guess at all.

My kid goes to Penn and doesn’t get taught by tas almost ever. When were you last at Penn? This has not been his experience and seems purposefully distorted.

I didn't go to Penn, I went to a different Ivy for grad school. If your kid was a STEM major or at Wharton they were mostly taught by TAs for their first two years even if a professor delivered the lecture. For upper division classes they would be taught by mostly Assistant Professors and ABD PHD students teaching seminars but they will have opportunities to take classes from Tenured Faculty as well. It's not a bad education at a top Private but it isn't the exclusively taught by Professors environment experienced by those at top SLACs. If I knew at 16 what I know know I would have tried to go to a good SLAC if I could have found a way to afford it. My own experience is proof that you can get it done from any undergraduate path but I do think that some are better than others.

A few things.

Lecture being taught by professor means you are being taught by a professor.

Many LACs hire adjunct faculty who are ABD to teach, particularly outside of their “leading” programs in Math, Economics, or Government.

Going through Penn’s physics course catalog for upper division courses, most classes are taught by tenure track faculty- a majority already tenured.

1. A class is 3 hours (3 50-minute periods). If prof gives 2 lectures and TA does 1 discussion section, TA is teaching 1/3 of the class (and doing almost all the grading and equal office hours, so it is more like 40%). Compare that to the prof teaching all 3 hours, grading everything etc. — for only 20 students.

2. Top SLACs don’t have ABDs teach.

Yeah they do? Adjunct lecturers at all the top lacs.

Visiting profs only. Not ABD types. Occasionally a practitioner - a lawyer- or an MFA artist or musician or prominent writer with an independent career…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sure, I guess. But with such extraordinarily selective schools, who really cares?

Williams and Amherst, and many other SLACS, are fantastic schools but they would rank lower than any of the Ivies in a head to head competition due to the lack of comparable science and engineering resources. They aren't really comparable which is why they are separately ranked.

Yes, and they would beat the Ivies for quality of UG education. Agree they are apples and oranges.

You sound unhinged.

I don’t even agree with the previous comment but nothing about it was unhinged. So weird how people just throw this term around for anything.

It’s unhinged bc the OP is taking two SLACs and trying to solicit input from strangers aa to where they would fit in with ivies. It is irrelvant:

- they are not ivies
- ivies are not SLACs
- SLACs and ivies are not clumped or evaluated together
- it won’t make her or anyone else think differently about an ivy or SLAC

Worthless and meaningless exercise. That’s why

The “you sound unhinged” comment was not in response to OP, but another commenter.

You sound unhinged was bc someone said:

“They aren't really comparable which is why they are separately ranked.”

Person 2 responded:
“Yes, and they would beat the Ivies for quality of UG education.”

That person is unhinged…as is OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The opportunities are nowhere near competitive enough. DD was able to work at Yale law during the summer and get funding to examine legal theory across 5 different countries with an experienced, decorated law faculty member. During the school year, she has a grant to do bioethics policy work with a New York think tank that reached out to Yale for students, leads a club where she’s able to invite major speakers in ethics and other philosophy faculty, and was able to take a course in the SOM to fulfill her interest in bioethics. At Williams, she could’ve gone to class and taken a wide range of philosophy courses unrelated to her interest and maybe joined/started a club.

Her friends at LACs are academically impressive but that’s about it. They don’t have the experiences that signal impact. At best, they can get into an REU hosted at an institution like my daughters.

You have to be out of your mind if you think that top SLAC students don't get summer opportunities equal to those at ivies. Often they do research at Ivies, taking seats that I am sure some Ivy parent felt belonged to their child. My kid did a research summer at Penn. She got it because a Penn reached out to her inquiring about interest. They reached out because their SLAC professor got their PHD at Penn and they sent an unsolicited email suggesting my kid. That is what you get at a top SLAC.

Or you could go to Penn and get these offers all the time.

Probably not because you were taught by a TA who really didn't care and the professor doesn't know you or really care to. But that same professor will do a solid for a former star from their lab.

Oh, so you’re just jealous and couldn’t get into an Ivy. It’s really embarrassing seeing people guess the experiences at these colleges and be so far off.

I did my undergrad at a public and went to an Ivy for grad school. It's not a guess at all.

My kid goes to Penn and doesn’t get taught by tas almost ever. When were you last at Penn? This has not been his experience and seems purposefully distorted.

So we know your kid is in the humanities, okay.

He does mathematics…? What is going on with the parents here?

The whole “your kid is only taught by TAs” is just a lazy but common trope from LAC boosters here.

Agreed. I’ve only heard this stereotype on here, because it just isn’t true. I guess they run off of people’s naivety?

Nice try, there are enough comments by former grad students, current professors, people have experienced both environments who have written sincere comments (as opposed to the normal nonsense, you can tell the difference) that outline what things are actually like. It may not be true for every school, in every major but the common experiences and themes don't exist in a vacuum.

And I can claim to be a unicorn, doesn’t mean it’s real, just because someone says it authoritatively.

It’s also easily refuted by course listings at any schools that have them available.

[Anonymous]

What does ABD mean ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The opportunities are nowhere near competitive enough. DD was able to work at Yale law during the summer and get funding to examine legal theory across 5 different countries with an experienced, decorated law faculty member. During the school year, she has a grant to do bioethics policy work with a New York think tank that reached out to Yale for students, leads a club where she’s able to invite major speakers in ethics and other philosophy faculty, and was able to take a course in the SOM to fulfill her interest in bioethics. At Williams, she could’ve gone to class and taken a wide range of philosophy courses unrelated to her interest and maybe joined/started a club.

Her friends at LACs are academically impressive but that’s about it. They don’t have the experiences that signal impact. At best, they can get into an REU hosted at an institution like my daughters.

You have to be out of your mind if you think that top SLAC students don't get summer opportunities equal to those at ivies. Often they do research at Ivies, taking seats that I am sure some Ivy parent felt belonged to their child. My kid did a research summer at Penn. She got it because a Penn reached out to her inquiring about interest. They reached out because their SLAC professor got their PHD at Penn and they sent an unsolicited email suggesting my kid. That is what you get at a top SLAC.

Or you could go to Penn and get these offers all the time.

Probably not because you were taught by a TA who really didn't care and the professor doesn't know you or really care to. But that same professor will do a solid for a former star from their lab.

Oh, so you’re just jealous and couldn’t get into an Ivy. It’s really embarrassing seeing people guess the experiences at these colleges and be so far off.

I did my undergrad at a public and went to an Ivy for grad school. It's not a guess at all.

My kid goes to Penn and doesn’t get taught by tas almost ever. When were you last at Penn? This has not been his experience and seems purposefully distorted.

I didn't go to Penn, I went to a different Ivy for grad school. If your kid was a STEM major or at Wharton they were mostly taught by TAs for their first two years even if a professor delivered the lecture. For upper division classes they would be taught by mostly Assistant Professors and ABD PHD students teaching seminars but they will have opportunities to take classes from Tenured Faculty as well. It's not a bad education at a top Private but it isn't the exclusively taught by Professors environment experienced by those at top SLACs. If I knew at 16 what I know know I would have tried to go to a good SLAC if I could have found a way to afford it. My own experience is proof that you can get it done from any undergraduate path but I do think that some are better than others.

A few things.

Lecture being taught by professor means you are being taught by a professor.

Many LACs hire adjunct faculty who are ABD to teach, particularly outside of their “leading” programs in Math, Economics, or Government.

Going through Penn’s physics course catalog for upper division courses, most classes are taught by tenure track faculty- a majority already tenured.

1. A class is 3 hours (3 50-minute periods). If prof gives 2 lectures and TA does 1 discussion section, TA is teaching 1/3 of the class (and doing almost all the grading and equal office hours, so it is more like 40%). Compare that to the prof teaching all 3 hours, grading everything etc. — for only 20 students.

2. Top SLACs don’t have ABDs teach.

Yeah they do? Adjunct lecturers at all the top lacs.

Visiting profs only. Not ABD types. Occasionally a practitioner - a lawyer- or an MFA artist or musician or prominent writer with an independent career…

There are visiting lecturers and adjuncts who come to the top lacs, not just visiting professors. I don’t know why you’d make up a lie that’s so easy to combat: https://www.higheredjobs.com/faculty/details.cfm?JobCode=179326670
https://employment.williams.edu/faculty-positions/department-of-music-2/
https://www.higheredjobs.com/institution/details.cfm?JobCode=179296487&Title=Full%20Time%20Lecturer%20in%20Arabic

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What does ABD mean ?

All but dissertation. Essentially you’ve passed qualifying exams, are actively researching, but you need to do dissertation defense to finish your PhD

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Anonymous wrote:The opportunities are nowhere near competitive enough. DD was able to work at Yale law during the summer and get funding to examine legal theory across 5 different countries with an experienced, decorated law faculty member. During the school year, she has a grant to do bioethics policy work with a New York think tank that reached out to Yale for students, leads a club where she’s able to invite major speakers in ethics and other philosophy faculty, and was able to take a course in the SOM to fulfill her interest in bioethics. At Williams, she could’ve gone to class and taken a wide range of philosophy courses unrelated to her interest and maybe joined/started a club.

Her friends at LACs are academically impressive but that’s about it. They don’t have the experiences that signal impact. At best, they can get into an REU hosted at an institution like my daughters.

You have to be out of your mind if you think that top SLAC students don't get summer opportunities equal to those at ivies. Often they do research at Ivies, taking seats that I am sure some Ivy parent felt belonged to their child. My kid did a research summer at Penn. She got it because a Penn reached out to her inquiring about interest. They reached out because their SLAC professor got their PHD at Penn and they sent an unsolicited email suggesting my kid. That is what you get at a top SLAC.

Or you could go to Penn and get these offers all the time.

Probably not because you were taught by a TA who really didn't care and the professor doesn't know you or really care to. But that same professor will do a solid for a former star from their lab.

Oh, so you’re just jealous and couldn’t get into an Ivy. It’s really embarrassing seeing people guess the experiences at these colleges and be so far off.

I did my undergrad at a public and went to an Ivy for grad school. It's not a guess at all.

My kid goes to Penn and doesn’t get taught by tas almost ever. When were you last at Penn? This has not been his experience and seems purposefully distorted.

So we know your kid is in the humanities, okay.

He does mathematics…? What is going on with the parents here?

The whole “your kid is only taught by TAs” is just a lazy but common trope from LAC boosters here.

Agreed. I’ve only heard this stereotype on here, because it just isn’t true. I guess they run off of people’s naivety?

Nice try, there are enough comments by former grad students, current professors, people have experienced both environments who have written sincere comments (as opposed to the normal nonsense, you can tell the difference) that outline what things are actually like. It may not be true for every school, in every major but the common experiences and themes don't exist in a vacuum.

And I can claim to be a unicorn, doesn’t mean it’s real, just because someone says it authoritatively.

It’s also easily refuted by course listings at any schools that have them available.

+1, ivies have tenure track faculty teaching. I don’t know where this lie started.

[Anonymous]

OP: Since all Ivy League schools are National R-1 Research Universities and Amherst & Williams are just colleges (LACs), the question does not make sense.

The better question would be to rank one's preference for each of these ten schools if accepted to all or to a few. For example: Please rank your preferences if accepted to Dartmouth, Brown, U Penn, Williams, & Amherst if planning to attend college as a pre-med student.