A very uncomfortable situation- how to handle

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am friends with a group from my sons school. We get together once a month for lunch or dinner.

So happens we went out for lunch today for our monthly get together. We are a real mix of personalities. Of the 8 of us, 2 are Jewish the rest are mixed religions. We all never bring up politics or religion as an unspoken rule however today the most outspoken of the bunch came out and blasted Israel for what they are doing. She really unloaded, once she got started, she didn't let up (with encouragement from others). We were all kind of surprised and in shock at first. One of the moms (Jewish) is married to a christian husband and is not religious and was one of the first to agree. Then a few others did too. The other Jewish mom however did not take this well. She started to defend whats going on then abruptly got up and said she had to leave early.

Of all the moms, shes the one I am the least close with but I feel badly for how it went. I want to call her just to see how shes doing because I know it was upsetting to her. Not to say I agree with her at all but shes human and no doubt felt really outnumbered as the "ringleader" came on really strong. Should I call or leave it alone?

It sounds like she's uncomfortable with truth. It might be time for her to wake up to reality, even if it's uncomfortable. It doesn't sound like she was targeted or blamed because she's Jewish (and she should absolutely not be), but ethically, walking away when you feel uncomfortable is a bit childish. There are so many Jews of conscience who abhor what Israel is doing - this isn't a religious thing, it's a political litmus test.

The attacker was childish. They had a nice interfaith group going and she ruined it because she wanted to school a Jew.

Who was attacked?!

You have no idea what was said or how it was said. She walked out so what we do know is that she felt uncomfortable. You never speak about politics at the table as you have no idea where people stand. I don’t agree with all of my friends on their views, so I don’t bring things up. I also don’t post on social media. OP has to decide whether politics or her friendship more important.

Way to jump to conclusions. OP has never said that the one person attacked the friend who left. You're imparting your own assumptions. There is no evidence in OP's post that anyone was remotely attacked, either physically or verbally. Sometimes people "feel attacked" but it means the issue lies within you, not in others actual actions or words.

She felt attacked and she left. You may feel like you can randomly corner Jews about Israel and demand perfect allegiance to your viewpoint or else. Don’t be surprised if they leave. It’s too bad because there is often something to agree about. With that confrontational tactic? No. No minds will ever open or be changed.

It's a human rights issue. Whatever religion you are, your own religion can commit atrocities. All religions have some seriously shitty people in them. Either you can stand with them, or against them. If one feels cornered or attacked... it's time for some serious self reflection.

Sure, which is why you should condemn Hamas as well and then people will be willing to engage in discussion. If you can’t do that… right back at you.

The U.S. has deemed Hamas a terrorist organization, which I why I don’t think you hear as much condemnation. This is already established and pretty agreed upon and also it’s not like Muslims are some preferred group in the U.S. over Jews.

Whereas we have long had close ties to Israel and have sent them gobs of our tax dollars. I don’t want my money supporting genocide, which is likely why people who disagree with Israel are more vocal. Our leaders have picked a side in this battle. Many Americans don’t agree with that. It’s not antisemitism to want to withdraw support at this point and I’m tired of that allegation being thrown around to silence anyone who disagrees with our current U.S. policy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not Jewish, and I am completely against the genocidal actions of Israel.

I think this woman and many like her have really struggled after a lifetime of brainwashing and cognitive dissonance. It's okay to disagree with her politically and yet to empathize with her distress. You feel for your friend, and it's okay to reach out to her.

This is not a religious issue, though it's close to her due to her religious identity.

Wow yeah ok: “Your belief that you experienced antisemitism is all in your head - the Jews brainwashed you.”

OP hopefully comments like this can make you understand why this woman noped out. Even if the comments were just about Gaza and couldn’t be seen any other way, she had no way of knowing what kind of bizarrely offensive comment might pop out of the mouth of someone who would never make the equivalent comment about other groups. Maybe she just did not want to take that risk at that moment.

FWIW, I (also Jewish) read that "brainwashing" line as referring to brainwashing about Israel, not brainwashing about antisemitism.

Yes, that's what I meant. I've heard it from so many people questioning what they've been taught all their lives by people they trusted. Many people were taught the Nakba didn't even happen. That is brainwashing. These are good, decent, American Jews who've been taught lies for political reasons.

Just stop troll.

I'm not a troll. Just someone asking for empathy for people who've been raised to believe Israel is an innocent victim their whole lives. It's hard to see and reconcile what's happening. It brings up all sorts of strange reactions. You can disagree with your friend, but if she's a decent person, keep the friendship, check in on her, etc.

I will second this. I am not a troll either, but this poster explains, in this post, and probably a few others, exactly how I feel. I've written my piece. It's time for some serious introspection with regard to this conflict. And I'm counting on my Jewish contemporaries to do the necessary mind work regarding this conflict.

OK. I think the point is that in an atmosphere where the discussion often veers into overt antisemitism or verrry close to it, there was no reason to think having a mom brunch suddenly become an Israel-Palestine throwdown was the atmosphere where anyone is doing the “necessary mind work.” FWIW I don’t know any Jews not doing “mind work” about this now - so to the extent people are imagining this mom was some kind of West Bank settler, I think you are very far off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am friends with a group from my sons school. We get together once a month for lunch or dinner.

So happens we went out for lunch today for our monthly get together. We are a real mix of personalities. Of the 8 of us, 2 are Jewish the rest are mixed religions. We all never bring up politics or religion as an unspoken rule however today the most outspoken of the bunch came out and blasted Israel for what they are doing. She really unloaded, once she got started, she didn't let up (with encouragement from others). We were all kind of surprised and in shock at first. One of the moms (Jewish) is married to a christian husband and is not religious and was one of the first to agree. Then a few others did too. The other Jewish mom however did not take this well. She started to defend whats going on then abruptly got up and said she had to leave early.

Of all the moms, shes the one I am the least close with but I feel badly for how it went. I want to call her just to see how shes doing because I know it was upsetting to her. Not to say I agree with her at all but shes human and no doubt felt really outnumbered as the "ringleader" came on really strong. Should I call or leave it alone?

It sounds like she's uncomfortable with truth. It might be time for her to wake up to reality, even if it's uncomfortable. It doesn't sound like she was targeted or blamed because she's Jewish (and she should absolutely not be), but ethically, walking away when you feel uncomfortable is a bit childish. There are so many Jews of conscience who abhor what Israel is doing - this isn't a religious thing, it's a political litmus test.

The attacker was childish. They had a nice interfaith group going and she ruined it because she wanted to school a Jew.

Who was attacked?!

You have no idea what was said or how it was said. She walked out so what we do know is that she felt uncomfortable. You never speak about politics at the table as you have no idea where people stand. I don’t agree with all of my friends on their views, so I don’t bring things up. I also don’t post on social media. OP has to decide whether politics or her friendship more important.

Way to jump to conclusions. OP has never said that the one person attacked the friend who left. You're imparting your own assumptions. There is no evidence in OP's post that anyone was remotely attacked, either physically or verbally. Sometimes people "feel attacked" but it means the issue lies within you, not in others actual actions or words.

She felt attacked and she left. You may feel like you can randomly corner Jews about Israel and demand perfect allegiance to your viewpoint or else. Don’t be surprised if they leave. It’s too bad because there is often something to agree about. With that confrontational tactic? No. No minds will ever open or be changed.

It's a human rights issue. Whatever religion you are, your own religion can commit atrocities. All religions have some seriously shitty people in them. Either you can stand with them, or against them. If one feels cornered or attacked... it's time for some serious self reflection.

you just cannot stop digging this hole for yourself can you? That type of comment is exactly why this woman got up and left. in case you need it spelled out for you: a “religion” did not do anything. The government of a country did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am friends with a group from my sons school. We get together once a month for lunch or dinner.

So happens we went out for lunch today for our monthly get together. We are a real mix of personalities. Of the 8 of us, 2 are Jewish the rest are mixed religions. We all never bring up politics or religion as an unspoken rule however today the most outspoken of the bunch came out and blasted Israel for what they are doing. She really unloaded, once she got started, she didn't let up (with encouragement from others). We were all kind of surprised and in shock at first. One of the moms (Jewish) is married to a christian husband and is not religious and was one of the first to agree. Then a few others did too. The other Jewish mom however did not take this well. She started to defend whats going on then abruptly got up and said she had to leave early.

Of all the moms, shes the one I am the least close with but I feel badly for how it went. I want to call her just to see how shes doing because I know it was upsetting to her. Not to say I agree with her at all but shes human and no doubt felt really outnumbered as the "ringleader" came on really strong. Should I call or leave it alone?

It sounds like she's uncomfortable with truth. It might be time for her to wake up to reality, even if it's uncomfortable. It doesn't sound like she was targeted or blamed because she's Jewish (and she should absolutely not be), but ethically, walking away when you feel uncomfortable is a bit childish. There are so many Jews of conscience who abhor what Israel is doing - this isn't a religious thing, it's a political litmus test.

The attacker was childish. They had a nice interfaith group going and she ruined it because she wanted to school a Jew.

Who was attacked?!

You have no idea what was said or how it was said. She walked out so what we do know is that she felt uncomfortable. You never speak about politics at the table as you have no idea where people stand. I don’t agree with all of my friends on their views, so I don’t bring things up. I also don’t post on social media. OP has to decide whether politics or her friendship more important.

Way to jump to conclusions. OP has never said that the one person attacked the friend who left. You're imparting your own assumptions. There is no evidence in OP's post that anyone was remotely attacked, either physically or verbally. Sometimes people "feel attacked" but it means the issue lies within you, not in others actual actions or words.

She felt attacked and she left. You may feel like you can randomly corner Jews about Israel and demand perfect allegiance to your viewpoint or else. Don’t be surprised if they leave. It’s too bad because there is often something to agree about. With that confrontational tactic? No. No minds will ever open or be changed.

It's a human rights issue. Whatever religion you are, your own religion can commit atrocities. All religions have some seriously shitty people in them. Either you can stand with them, or against them. If one feels cornered or attacked... it's time for some serious self reflection.

Sure, which is why you should condemn Hamas as well and then people will be willing to engage in discussion. If you can’t do that… right back at you.

The U.S. has deemed Hamas a terrorist organization, which I why I don’t think you hear as much condemnation. This is already established and pretty agreed upon and also it’s not like Muslims are some preferred group in the U.S. over Jews.

Whereas we have long had close ties to Israel and have sent them gobs of our tax dollars. I don’t want my money supporting genocide, which is likely why people who disagree with Israel are more vocal. Our leaders have picked a side in this battle. Many Americans don’t agree with that. It’s not antisemitism to want to withdraw support at this point and I’m tired of that allegation being thrown around to silence anyone who disagrees with our current U.S. policy.

At this point, I am going to declare this argument to be a complete strawman. Nobody is claiming that “anyone who disagrees with the war in Gaza is antisemitic.” Total strawman because you don’t actually WANT to understand the nuance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am friends with a group from my sons school. We get together once a month for lunch or dinner.

So happens we went out for lunch today for our monthly get together. We are a real mix of personalities. Of the 8 of us, 2 are Jewish the rest are mixed religions. We all never bring up politics or religion as an unspoken rule however today the most outspoken of the bunch came out and blasted Israel for what they are doing. She really unloaded, once she got started, she didn't let up (with encouragement from others). We were all kind of surprised and in shock at first. One of the moms (Jewish) is married to a christian husband and is not religious and was one of the first to agree. Then a few others did too. The other Jewish mom however did not take this well. She started to defend whats going on then abruptly got up and said she had to leave early.

Of all the moms, shes the one I am the least close with but I feel badly for how it went. I want to call her just to see how shes doing because I know it was upsetting to her. Not to say I agree with her at all but shes human and no doubt felt really outnumbered as the "ringleader" came on really strong. Should I call or leave it alone?

It sounds like she's uncomfortable with truth. It might be time for her to wake up to reality, even if it's uncomfortable. It doesn't sound like she was targeted or blamed because she's Jewish (and she should absolutely not be), but ethically, walking away when you feel uncomfortable is a bit childish. There are so many Jews of conscience who abhor what Israel is doing - this isn't a religious thing, it's a political litmus test.

The attacker was childish. They had a nice interfaith group going and she ruined it because she wanted to school a Jew.

Who was attacked?!

You have no idea what was said or how it was said. She walked out so what we do know is that she felt uncomfortable. You never speak about politics at the table as you have no idea where people stand. I don’t agree with all of my friends on their views, so I don’t bring things up. I also don’t post on social media. OP has to decide whether politics or her friendship more important.

Way to jump to conclusions. OP has never said that the one person attacked the friend who left. You're imparting your own assumptions. There is no evidence in OP's post that anyone was remotely attacked, either physically or verbally. Sometimes people "feel attacked" but it means the issue lies within you, not in others actual actions or words.

She felt attacked and she left. You may feel like you can randomly corner Jews about Israel and demand perfect allegiance to your viewpoint or else. Don’t be surprised if they leave. It’s too bad because there is often something to agree about. With that confrontational tactic? No. No minds will ever open or be changed.

It's a human rights issue. Whatever religion you are, your own religion can commit atrocities. All religions have some seriously shitty people in them. Either you can stand with them, or against them. If one feels cornered or attacked... it's time for some serious self reflection.

you just cannot stop digging this hole for yourself can you? That type of comment is exactly why this woman got up and left. in case you need it spelled out for you: a “religion” did not do anything. The government of a country did.

You are right, but you also just don't get it. That's exactly the point. Did OP's friend go off about Jewish people, or Israel? So did the other friend leave because of her loyalty to Israel, or because she felt uncomfortable being Jewish?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am friends with a group from my sons school. We get together once a month for lunch or dinner.

So happens we went out for lunch today for our monthly get together. We are a real mix of personalities. Of the 8 of us, 2 are Jewish the rest are mixed religions. We all never bring up politics or religion as an unspoken rule however today the most outspoken of the bunch came out and blasted Israel for what they are doing. She really unloaded, once she got started, she didn't let up (with encouragement from others). We were all kind of surprised and in shock at first. One of the moms (Jewish) is married to a christian husband and is not religious and was one of the first to agree. Then a few others did too. The other Jewish mom however did not take this well. She started to defend whats going on then abruptly got up and said she had to leave early.

Of all the moms, shes the one I am the least close with but I feel badly for how it went. I want to call her just to see how shes doing because I know it was upsetting to her. Not to say I agree with her at all but shes human and no doubt felt really outnumbered as the "ringleader" came on really strong. Should I call or leave it alone?

It sounds like she's uncomfortable with truth. It might be time for her to wake up to reality, even if it's uncomfortable. It doesn't sound like she was targeted or blamed because she's Jewish (and she should absolutely not be), but ethically, walking away when you feel uncomfortable is a bit childish. There are so many Jews of conscience who abhor what Israel is doing - this isn't a religious thing, it's a political litmus test.

The attacker was childish. They had a nice interfaith group going and she ruined it because she wanted to school a Jew.

Who was attacked?!

You have no idea what was said or how it was said. She walked out so what we do know is that she felt uncomfortable. You never speak about politics at the table as you have no idea where people stand. I don’t agree with all of my friends on their views, so I don’t bring things up. I also don’t post on social media. OP has to decide whether politics or her friendship more important.

Way to jump to conclusions. OP has never said that the one person attacked the friend who left. You're imparting your own assumptions. There is no evidence in OP's post that anyone was remotely attacked, either physically or verbally. Sometimes people "feel attacked" but it means the issue lies within you, not in others actual actions or words.

She felt attacked and she left. You may feel like you can randomly corner Jews about Israel and demand perfect allegiance to your viewpoint or else. Don’t be surprised if they leave. It’s too bad because there is often something to agree about. With that confrontational tactic? No. No minds will ever open or be changed.

It's a human rights issue. Whatever religion you are, your own religion can commit atrocities. All religions have some seriously shitty people in them. Either you can stand with them, or against them. If one feels cornered or attacked... it's time for some serious self reflection.

Sure, which is why you should condemn Hamas as well and then people will be willing to engage in discussion. If you can’t do that… right back at you.

The U.S. has deemed Hamas a terrorist organization, which I why I don’t think you hear as much condemnation. This is already established and pretty agreed upon and also it’s not like Muslims are some preferred group in the U.S. over Jews.

Whereas we have long had close ties to Israel and have sent them gobs of our tax dollars. I don’t want my money supporting genocide, which is likely why people who disagree with Israel are more vocal. Our leaders have picked a side in this battle. Many Americans don’t agree with that. It’s not antisemitism to want to withdraw support at this point and I’m tired of that allegation being thrown around to silence anyone who disagrees with our current U.S. policy.

At this point, I am going to declare this argument to be a complete strawman. Nobody is claiming that “anyone who disagrees with the war in Gaza is antisemitic.” Total strawman because you don’t actually WANT to understand the nuance.

Yes, support for Gaza is very much conflated with antisemitism. This is all over the place, and it's certainly apparent with this administration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not Jewish, and I am completely against the genocidal actions of Israel.

I think this woman and many like her have really struggled after a lifetime of brainwashing and cognitive dissonance. It's okay to disagree with her politically and yet to empathize with her distress. You feel for your friend, and it's okay to reach out to her.

This is not a religious issue, though it's close to her due to her religious identity.

Wow yeah ok: “Your belief that you experienced antisemitism is all in your head - the Jews brainwashed you.”

OP hopefully comments like this can make you understand why this woman noped out. Even if the comments were just about Gaza and couldn’t be seen any other way, she had no way of knowing what kind of bizarrely offensive comment might pop out of the mouth of someone who would never make the equivalent comment about other groups. Maybe she just did not want to take that risk at that moment.

FWIW, I (also Jewish) read that "brainwashing" line as referring to brainwashing about Israel, not brainwashing about antisemitism.

Yes, that's what I meant. I've heard it from so many people questioning what they've been taught all their lives by people they trusted. Many people were taught the Nakba didn't even happen. That is brainwashing. These are good, decent, American Jews who've been taught lies for political reasons.

Just stop troll.

I'm not a troll. Just someone asking for empathy for people who've been raised to believe Israel is an innocent victim their whole lives. It's hard to see and reconcile what's happening. It brings up all sorts of strange reactions. You can disagree with your friend, but if she's a decent person, keep the friendship, check in on her, etc.

I will second this. I am not a troll either, but this poster explains, in this post, and probably a few others, exactly how I feel. I've written my piece. It's time for some serious introspection with regard to this conflict. And I'm counting on my Jewish contemporaries to do the necessary mind work regarding this conflict.

OK. I think the point is that in an atmosphere where the discussion often veers into overt antisemitism or verrry close to it, there was no reason to think having a mom brunch suddenly become an Israel-Palestine throwdown was the atmosphere where anyone is doing the “necessary mind work.” FWIW I don’t know any Jews not doing “mind work” about this now - so to the extent people are imagining this mom was some kind of West Bank settler, I think you are very far off.

No, it's just not ok to condemn Israeli actions apparently without appearing antisemitic. Again, there are so many having trouble with this. It's definitely a thing, I see it daily.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am friends with a group from my sons school. We get together once a month for lunch or dinner.

So happens we went out for lunch today for our monthly get together. We are a real mix of personalities. Of the 8 of us, 2 are Jewish the rest are mixed religions. We all never bring up politics or religion as an unspoken rule however today the most outspoken of the bunch came out and blasted Israel for what they are doing. She really unloaded, once she got started, she didn't let up (with encouragement from others). We were all kind of surprised and in shock at first. One of the moms (Jewish) is married to a christian husband and is not religious and was one of the first to agree. Then a few others did too. The other Jewish mom however did not take this well. She started to defend whats going on then abruptly got up and said she had to leave early.

Of all the moms, shes the one I am the least close with but I feel badly for how it went. I want to call her just to see how shes doing because I know it was upsetting to her. Not to say I agree with her at all but shes human and no doubt felt really outnumbered as the "ringleader" came on really strong. Should I call or leave it alone?

It sounds like she's uncomfortable with truth. It might be time for her to wake up to reality, even if it's uncomfortable. It doesn't sound like she was targeted or blamed because she's Jewish (and she should absolutely not be), but ethically, walking away when you feel uncomfortable is a bit childish. There are so many Jews of conscience who abhor what Israel is doing - this isn't a religious thing, it's a political litmus test.

The attacker was childish. They had a nice interfaith group going and she ruined it because she wanted to school a Jew.

Who was attacked?!

You have no idea what was said or how it was said. She walked out so what we do know is that she felt uncomfortable. You never speak about politics at the table as you have no idea where people stand. I don’t agree with all of my friends on their views, so I don’t bring things up. I also don’t post on social media. OP has to decide whether politics or her friendship more important.

Way to jump to conclusions. OP has never said that the one person attacked the friend who left. You're imparting your own assumptions. There is no evidence in OP's post that anyone was remotely attacked, either physically or verbally. Sometimes people "feel attacked" but it means the issue lies within you, not in others actual actions or words.

She felt attacked and she left. You may feel like you can randomly corner Jews about Israel and demand perfect allegiance to your viewpoint or else. Don’t be surprised if they leave. It’s too bad because there is often something to agree about. With that confrontational tactic? No. No minds will ever open or be changed.

It's a human rights issue. Whatever religion you are, your own religion can commit atrocities. All religions have some seriously shitty people in them. Either you can stand with them, or against them. If one feels cornered or attacked... it's time for some serious self reflection.

you just cannot stop digging this hole for yourself can you? That type of comment is exactly why this woman got up and left. in case you need it spelled out for you: a “religion” did not do anything. The government of a country did.

You are right, but you also just don't get it. That's exactly the point. Did OP's friend go off about Jewish people, or Israel? So did the other friend leave because of her loyalty to Israel, or because she felt uncomfortable being Jewish?

The fact that you even pose it that way is the whole problem and why she walked away. Because she was uninterested to hear where it would go and not feeling like having to deal with accusations about her “loyalty to Israel.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am friends with a group from my sons school. We get together once a month for lunch or dinner.

So happens we went out for lunch today for our monthly get together. We are a real mix of personalities. Of the 8 of us, 2 are Jewish the rest are mixed religions. We all never bring up politics or religion as an unspoken rule however today the most outspoken of the bunch came out and blasted Israel for what they are doing. She really unloaded, once she got started, she didn't let up (with encouragement from others). We were all kind of surprised and in shock at first. One of the moms (Jewish) is married to a christian husband and is not religious and was one of the first to agree. Then a few others did too. The other Jewish mom however did not take this well. She started to defend whats going on then abruptly got up and said she had to leave early.

Of all the moms, shes the one I am the least close with but I feel badly for how it went. I want to call her just to see how shes doing because I know it was upsetting to her. Not to say I agree with her at all but shes human and no doubt felt really outnumbered as the "ringleader" came on really strong. Should I call or leave it alone?

It sounds like she's uncomfortable with truth. It might be time for her to wake up to reality, even if it's uncomfortable. It doesn't sound like she was targeted or blamed because she's Jewish (and she should absolutely not be), but ethically, walking away when you feel uncomfortable is a bit childish. There are so many Jews of conscience who abhor what Israel is doing - this isn't a religious thing, it's a political litmus test.

The attacker was childish. They had a nice interfaith group going and she ruined it because she wanted to school a Jew.

Who was attacked?!

You have no idea what was said or how it was said. She walked out so what we do know is that she felt uncomfortable. You never speak about politics at the table as you have no idea where people stand. I don’t agree with all of my friends on their views, so I don’t bring things up. I also don’t post on social media. OP has to decide whether politics or her friendship more important.

Way to jump to conclusions. OP has never said that the one person attacked the friend who left. You're imparting your own assumptions. There is no evidence in OP's post that anyone was remotely attacked, either physically or verbally. Sometimes people "feel attacked" but it means the issue lies within you, not in others actual actions or words.

She felt attacked and she left. You may feel like you can randomly corner Jews about Israel and demand perfect allegiance to your viewpoint or else. Don’t be surprised if they leave. It’s too bad because there is often something to agree about. With that confrontational tactic? No. No minds will ever open or be changed.

It's a human rights issue. Whatever religion you are, your own religion can commit atrocities. All religions have some seriously shitty people in them. Either you can stand with them, or against them. If one feels cornered or attacked... it's time for some serious self reflection.

Sure, which is why you should condemn Hamas as well and then people will be willing to engage in discussion. If you can’t do that… right back at you.

The U.S. has deemed Hamas a terrorist organization, which I why I don’t think you hear as much condemnation. This is already established and pretty agreed upon and also it’s not like Muslims are some preferred group in the U.S. over Jews.

Whereas we have long had close ties to Israel and have sent them gobs of our tax dollars. I don’t want my money supporting genocide, which is likely why people who disagree with Israel are more vocal. Our leaders have picked a side in this battle. Many Americans don’t agree with that. It’s not antisemitism to want to withdraw support at this point and I’m tired of that allegation being thrown around to silence anyone who disagrees with our current U.S. policy.

At this point, I am going to declare this argument to be a complete strawman. Nobody is claiming that “anyone who disagrees with the war in Gaza is antisemitic.” Total strawman because you don’t actually WANT to understand the nuance.

Yes, support for Gaza is very much conflated with antisemitism. This is all over the place, and it's certainly apparent with this administration.

no it’s not. That’s a strawman used to try to make people not talk about antisemitism. Which is why this woman i opted to nope out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a jewish (American) person who doesn't want to hear people bash Israel, I would appreciate the call from you. Yes, a lot of what Israel is doing is atrocious but this country has been defending themselves from all sides for their entire "life".

I have never heard ANYONE unleash on the IDF without ALSO talking smack about Jewish people. THAT is the real issue for me. Their antisemitism comes roaring out, and they can't/won't see that.

I am genuinely not trying to be inflammatory but I do find your last paragraph hard to believe. Have you not spoken with any of the many Jewish voices against instances of IDF brutality?

Of course. I am also against the IDF brutality. However, my jewish friends and I are able to separate what the IDF is doing from hating all jewish people, even hating all Israelis. And that's not something I can say about non-jews. We (my jewish friends/relatives and I) don't unleash to each other about the IDF. We don't need to because we know we all agree. Our talks are more solution-oriented and about the therapy everyone involved will need, and how all the hard work bridging relationships between Israelis and Palestinians over the last few decades has crumbled. Some of us were involved in those programs.

When I said I've never heard anyone unleash on the IDF without also talking smack about jewish people, I meant "anyone" to mean non-jews. Sorry for not being clear the first time.

Non-jews can also separate government policy and IDF actions ordered by a government from "all Israelis" or "all Jews." You just haven't heard enough people.

This is about how the woman who walked out felt - clearly she felt the discussion was antisemitic.

Probably was. My post responded to a quote from someone who wasn't the woman who walked out.

Criticizing Israel is not antisemitic.

To zionists, anything short of applauding genocide is antisemitic.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am not Jewish, and I am completely against the genocidal actions of Israel.

I think this woman and many like her have really struggled after a lifetime of brainwashing and cognitive dissonance. It's okay to disagree with her politically and yet to empathize with her distress. You feel for your friend, and it's okay to reach out to her.

This is not a religious issue, though it's close to her due to her religious identity.

Wow yeah ok: “Your belief that you experienced antisemitism is all in your head - the Jews brainwashed you.”

OP hopefully comments like this can make you understand why this woman noped out. Even if the comments were just about Gaza and couldn’t be seen any other way, she had no way of knowing what kind of bizarrely offensive comment might pop out of the mouth of someone who would never make the equivalent comment about other groups. Maybe she just did not want to take that risk at that moment.

FWIW, I (also Jewish) read that "brainwashing" line as referring to brainwashing about Israel, not brainwashing about antisemitism.

Yes, that's what I meant. I've heard it from so many people questioning what they've been taught all their lives by people they trusted. Many people were taught the Nakba didn't even happen. That is brainwashing. These are good, decent, American Jews who've been taught lies for political reasons.

Just stop troll.

I'm not a troll. Just someone asking for empathy for people who've been raised to believe Israel is an innocent victim their whole lives. It's hard to see and reconcile what's happening. It brings up all sorts of strange reactions. You can disagree with your friend, but if she's a decent person, keep the friendship, check in on her, etc.

I will second this. I am not a troll either, but this poster explains, in this post, and probably a few others, exactly how I feel. I've written my piece. It's time for some serious introspection with regard to this conflict. And I'm counting on my Jewish contemporaries to do the necessary mind work regarding this conflict.

OK. I think the point is that in an atmosphere where the discussion often veers into overt antisemitism or verrry close to it, there was no reason to think having a mom brunch suddenly become an Israel-Palestine throwdown was the atmosphere where anyone is doing the “necessary mind work.” FWIW I don’t know any Jews not doing “mind work” about this now - so to the extent people are imagining this mom was some kind of West Bank settler, I think you are very far off.

No, it's just not ok to condemn Israeli actions apparently without appearing antisemitic. Again, there are so many having trouble with this. It's definitely a thing, I see it daily.

If you don’t want to appear antisemitic maybe stop for a minute and listen to what people are trying to tell you.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a jewish (American) person who doesn't want to hear people bash Israel, I would appreciate the call from you. Yes, a lot of what Israel is doing is atrocious but this country has been defending themselves from all sides for their entire "life".

I have never heard ANYONE unleash on the IDF without ALSO talking smack about Jewish people. THAT is the real issue for me. Their antisemitism comes roaring out, and they can't/won't see that.

I am genuinely not trying to be inflammatory but I do find your last paragraph hard to believe. Have you not spoken with any of the many Jewish voices against instances of IDF brutality?

Of course. I am also against the IDF brutality. However, my jewish friends and I are able to separate what the IDF is doing from hating all jewish people, even hating all Israelis. And that's not something I can say about non-jews. We (my jewish friends/relatives and I) don't unleash to each other about the IDF. We don't need to because we know we all agree. Our talks are more solution-oriented and about the therapy everyone involved will need, and how all the hard work bridging relationships between Israelis and Palestinians over the last few decades has crumbled. Some of us were involved in those programs.

When I said I've never heard anyone unleash on the IDF without also talking smack about jewish people, I meant "anyone" to mean non-jews. Sorry for not being clear the first time.

Non-jews can also separate government policy and IDF actions ordered by a government from "all Israelis" or "all Jews." You just haven't heard enough people.

This is about how the woman who walked out felt - clearly she felt the discussion was antisemitic.

Probably was. My post responded to a quote from someone who wasn't the woman who walked out.

Criticizing Israel is not antisemitic.

To zionists, anything short of applauding genocide is antisemitic.

That’s right, all claims of antisemitism are fake.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I am friends with a group from my sons school. We get together once a month for lunch or dinner.

So happens we went out for lunch today for our monthly get together. We are a real mix of personalities. Of the 8 of us, 2 are Jewish the rest are mixed religions. We all never bring up politics or religion as an unspoken rule however today the most outspoken of the bunch came out and blasted Israel for what they are doing. She really unloaded, once she got started, she didn't let up (with encouragement from others). We were all kind of surprised and in shock at first. One of the moms (Jewish) is married to a christian husband and is not religious and was one of the first to agree. Then a few others did too. The other Jewish mom however did not take this well. She started to defend whats going on then abruptly got up and said she had to leave early.

Of all the moms, shes the one I am the least close with but I feel badly for how it went. I want to call her just to see how shes doing because I know it was upsetting to her. Not to say I agree with her at all but shes human and no doubt felt really outnumbered as the "ringleader" came on really strong. Should I call or leave it alone?

It sounds like she's uncomfortable with truth. It might be time for her to wake up to reality, even if it's uncomfortable. It doesn't sound like she was targeted or blamed because she's Jewish (and she should absolutely not be), but ethically, walking away when you feel uncomfortable is a bit childish. There are so many Jews of conscience who abhor what Israel is doing - this isn't a religious thing, it's a political litmus test.

The attacker was childish. They had a nice interfaith group going and she ruined it because she wanted to school a Jew.

Who was attacked?!

You have no idea what was said or how it was said. She walked out so what we do know is that she felt uncomfortable. You never speak about politics at the table as you have no idea where people stand. I don’t agree with all of my friends on their views, so I don’t bring things up. I also don’t post on social media. OP has to decide whether politics or her friendship more important.

Way to jump to conclusions. OP has never said that the one person attacked the friend who left. You're imparting your own assumptions. There is no evidence in OP's post that anyone was remotely attacked, either physically or verbally. Sometimes people "feel attacked" but it means the issue lies within you, not in others actual actions or words.

She felt attacked and she left. You may feel like you can randomly corner Jews about Israel and demand perfect allegiance to your viewpoint or else. Don’t be surprised if they leave. It’s too bad because there is often something to agree about. With that confrontational tactic? No. No minds will ever open or be changed.

It's a human rights issue. Whatever religion you are, your own religion can commit atrocities. All religions have some seriously shitty people in them. Either you can stand with them, or against them. If one feels cornered or attacked... it's time for some serious self reflection.

you just cannot stop digging this hole for yourself can you? That type of comment is exactly why this woman got up and left. in case you need it spelled out for you: a “religion” did not do anything. The government of a country did.

You are right, but you also just don't get it. That's exactly the point. Did OP's friend go off about Jewish people, or Israel? So did the other friend leave because of her loyalty to Israel, or because she felt uncomfortable being Jewish?

The fact that you even pose it that way is the whole problem and why she walked away. Because she was uninterested to hear where it would go and not feeling like having to deal with accusations about her “loyalty to Israel.”

Where in OP's post did she say the anti-Israel friend was accusing the other friend of being loyal to Israel? When in OP's post did she say that friend was targeting the other for being Jewish?

YOU are the one who is ascribing the whole idea of accusations to anyone. Ordinary Jews bear no culpability for Israel's actions. If the friend felt so uncomfortable that she couldn't deal, once again, that's her own issue to reconcile. Israel is a highly problematic country right now - people of conscience (including many Jews) wholeheartedly agree. You're going around in circles, and seemingly putting your fingers in your ear going LALALALA.

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Anonymous wrote:I am friends with a group from my sons school. We get together once a month for lunch or dinner.

So happens we went out for lunch today for our monthly get together. We are a real mix of personalities. Of the 8 of us, 2 are Jewish the rest are mixed religions. We all never bring up politics or religion as an unspoken rule however today the most outspoken of the bunch came out and blasted Israel for what they are doing. She really unloaded, once she got started, she didn't let up (with encouragement from others). We were all kind of surprised and in shock at first. One of the moms (Jewish) is married to a christian husband and is not religious and was one of the first to agree. Then a few others did too. The other Jewish mom however did not take this well. She started to defend whats going on then abruptly got up and said she had to leave early.

Of all the moms, shes the one I am the least close with but I feel badly for how it went. I want to call her just to see how shes doing because I know it was upsetting to her. Not to say I agree with her at all but shes human and no doubt felt really outnumbered as the "ringleader" came on really strong. Should I call or leave it alone?

It sounds like she's uncomfortable with truth. It might be time for her to wake up to reality, even if it's uncomfortable. It doesn't sound like she was targeted or blamed because she's Jewish (and she should absolutely not be), but ethically, walking away when you feel uncomfortable is a bit childish. There are so many Jews of conscience who abhor what Israel is doing - this isn't a religious thing, it's a political litmus test.

The attacker was childish. They had a nice interfaith group going and she ruined it because she wanted to school a Jew.

Who was attacked?!

You have no idea what was said or how it was said. She walked out so what we do know is that she felt uncomfortable. You never speak about politics at the table as you have no idea where people stand. I don’t agree with all of my friends on their views, so I don’t bring things up. I also don’t post on social media. OP has to decide whether politics or her friendship more important.

Way to jump to conclusions. OP has never said that the one person attacked the friend who left. You're imparting your own assumptions. There is no evidence in OP's post that anyone was remotely attacked, either physically or verbally. Sometimes people "feel attacked" but it means the issue lies within you, not in others actual actions or words.

She felt attacked and she left. You may feel like you can randomly corner Jews about Israel and demand perfect allegiance to your viewpoint or else. Don’t be surprised if they leave. It’s too bad because there is often something to agree about. With that confrontational tactic? No. No minds will ever open or be changed.

It's a human rights issue. Whatever religion you are, your own religion can commit atrocities. All religions have some seriously shitty people in them. Either you can stand with them, or against them. If one feels cornered or attacked... it's time for some serious self reflection.

you just cannot stop digging this hole for yourself can you? That type of comment is exactly why this woman got up and left. in case you need it spelled out for you: a “religion” did not do anything. The government of a country did.

You are right, but you also just don't get it. That's exactly the point. Did OP's friend go off about Jewish people, or Israel? So did the other friend leave because of her loyalty to Israel, or because she felt uncomfortable being Jewish?

The fact that you even pose it that way is the whole problem and why she walked away. Because she was uninterested to hear where it would go and not feeling like having to deal with accusations about her “loyalty to Israel.”

Where in OP's post did she say the anti-Israel friend was accusing the other friend of being loyal to Israel? When in OP's post did she say that friend was targeting the other for being Jewish?

YOU are the one who is ascribing the whole idea of accusations to anyone. Ordinary Jews bear no culpability for Israel's actions. If the friend felt so uncomfortable that she couldn't deal, once again, that's her own issue to reconcile. Israel is a highly problematic country right now - people of conscience (including many Jews) wholeheartedly agree. You're going around in circles, and seemingly putting your fingers in your ear going LALALALA.

The point is, the kind of things people say here are examples of what people say IRL when they get into this subject. Which is why people may very reasonably choose to opt out before things go south. Just because she didn’t want to wait to hear what came out of the Alpha Mom’s mouth doesn’t mean she is loyal to Israel or making false claims about antisemitism.

[Anonymous]

I would call her OP. She obviously felt very isolated. I am Catholic and am in a circle that's about half Jewish, with the other half mostly non practicing Catholics and protestants. We are close enough that we talk deeply about any and all issues.

But my Jewish friends feel the sting of antisemitism constantly (not from our group but other communities to which they belong). Many identify strongly with Israel. It is very difficult to have a conversation about Israel without sounding antisemitic.

I would call her and just listen. I'm sure she feels isolated and unsure of her place in this group.