Are the ivies overrated? Perhaps too much coddling?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Actually, if you look at the top feeders for tech and finance, it’s mostly public schools, or private schools that have rigor similar to elite publics like Berkeley and Michigan.

Tech yes because of the sheer numbers. Finance, absolutely not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These surveys are so meaningless. No CEO is directly hiring an entry-level person out of college. And when they do hire/promote at the more senior levels, Ivy grads are well represented. There is zero chance a CEO ever looked at a candidate for senior management and said "nah, he went to an Ivy."

I did not attend an Ivy and I have no view on whether they're overrated, but I am deeply suspicious of rich dudes who "already got theirs" saying young people expect too much respect at work.

It is not meaningless. I work in tech, and this is pretty much the prevailing sentiment.

I work in real tech and you are delusional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is at a HYPSM and working their butt off. No coddling there. Demanding academics!

These kids need to be allowed to compete. I went to Berkeley. I still remember the incredulous stare of my Stanford friends when they saw my work load. They were appalled that the average grades on most tests were 34-40 percent, which curved to a B.

I remember when my friend at Stanford was allowed to withdraw from a class a week before finals. They were getting a bad grade, and Stanford let them retake the class 3x before they could pass with a B. In my big no name state u, you would have to take that bad grade. They would never let you withdraw a week before finals.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:no

Yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This again.

How many threads can we post a day that attack the Ivies?

No.

I have a kid at an Ivy. The kid was always VERY independent. I never reminded him about homework or had to coddle him, tutor him or even check his Canvas--every. He managed time extremely well. He was a self-starter. He had a lot of variety--played sports, academic clubs, lots of friends.

He arrived on campus and w/in days had figured out where the zip cars were to get him to an activity (non-school related). He joined things in and out of school, won a departmental award, handled an emergency surgery---and was messaging profs from the hospital bed. He found opportunities. Figured out summer internship, etc.

There was zero coddling. He had great advisors--but they certainly weren't coddling--they are a research which you can use if you want.

I found his roommates all to be very mature for their ages--incredibly smart and accomplished as well.

Same as mine, two different ivies. The vast majority of their friends are highly intelligent, humble, and accomplish far more each semester and summer than we did back in 1990. They are very driven. There is grade inflation compared to the 90s but that it is at all peer schools. The workload is still just as intense if not more because double-major is so common now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These surveys are so meaningless. No CEO is directly hiring an entry-level person out of college. And when they do hire/promote at the more senior levels, Ivy grads are well represented. There is zero chance a CEO ever looked at a candidate for senior management and said "nah, he went to an Ivy."

I did not attend an Ivy and I have no view on whether they're overrated, but I am deeply suspicious of rich dudes who "already got theirs" saying young people expect too much respect at work.

It is not meaningless. I work in tech, and this is pretty much the prevailing sentiment.

I work in real tech and you are delusional.

I also work in real tech (FAANG), and it's both. They still hire from the T10 but they also hire people with no degrees now or those who went to a lesser school. It didn't use to be that way. Years ago, I saw a list of "acceptable" schools that the company hired from depending on the role. And the CIO would also interview the person who was applying for a lower level job, not senior. It was crazy. That has changed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to East Flyover State U and ended up in a top professional school with lots of ivy grads. They were okay-everyone in the class was pretty smart but they were not smarter than the non ivy students at all. They were more coddled (and much richer) on average but there were of course exceptions.

I’ve had the same experience.

Sour grapes

I do think people who didn’t go, or get into, ivies are a bit sour, but not in the way that you think. I think people are sour because, especially if they graduated from a top five or ten public, they feel like they were better trained but society still sees them as a notch below Ivy League grads who benefit from societal presuppositions about Ivy schools. And, as Forbes point out, employers are starting to catch on to that. The problem with private schools is that they rely too much on donors. As such, they can’t totally go too hard on their students. Public schools will flunk you, and that builds character and puts a little chip on students’ shoulders. Privates are afraid to flunk their students.

Omg. NOT. They expel, suspend and flunk them all of the time if they are up to snuff. Where do you people come up with your theories?

Ted Turner billionaire founder of CNN and TBS was asked to leave Brown during his senior year. Apparently Turner, who was studying economics was suspended twice. One of those times was for getting caught with a girl in his room.

Robert Smigel of SNL originally went to Cornell for Dentistry but knew he never really wanted to be a Dentist. He said in one interview that he failed so badly at pre-Dentistry classes that his parents felt sorry for him and let him transfer to NYU to study communications.

Brown situation - that's not related to academics.
Cornell situation - the student transferred on their own accord. He failed so badly but Cornell would probably have allowed him to retake the class over and over. Publics don't do that. That bad grade just goes on your transcript.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to East Flyover State U and ended up in a top professional school with lots of ivy grads. They were okay-everyone in the class was pretty smart but they were not smarter than the non ivy students at all. They were more coddled (and much richer) on average but there were of course exceptions.

I’ve had the same experience.

Sour grapes

I do think people who didn’t go, or get into, ivies are a bit sour, but not in the way that you think. I think people are sour because, especially if they graduated from a top five or ten public, they feel like they were better trained but society still sees them as a notch below Ivy League grads who benefit from societal presuppositions about Ivy schools. And, as Forbes point out, employers are starting to catch on to that. The problem with private schools is that they rely too much on donors. As such, they can’t totally go too hard on their students. Public schools will flunk you, and that builds character and puts a little chip on students’ shoulders. Privates are afraid to flunk their students.

Omg. NOT. They expel, suspend and flunk them all of the time if they are up to snuff. Where do you people come up with your theories?

Ted Turner billionaire founder of CNN and TBS was asked to leave Brown during his senior year. Apparently Turner, who was studying economics was suspended twice. One of those times was for getting caught with a girl in his room.

Robert Smigel of SNL originally went to Cornell for Dentistry but knew he never really wanted to be a Dentist. He said in one interview that he failed so badly at pre-Dentistry classes that his parents felt sorry for him and let him transfer to NYU to study communications.

Turner's expulsion happened like 60 years ago and had nothing to do with academics.

My kid knows 3 that were expelled/suspended at her Ivy this year.

for getting a bad grade?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is disputing that there are super bright people at ivies, it’s more the idea that the dimwits there (and there are definitely plenty of dimwits there) are more capable than the top students at lot lots of other (less rich, less privileged) schools.

There are a much, much greater number of dimwits at non-Ivies...and more as you keep going down the rankings.

My brother was a complete idiot and on a full ride at an ~330 ranked university....between the 4 roommates they didn't have a 4.0 first quarter...didn't even pick their books up (that were paid for).

The liklihood of finding a dimwit is much greater not on an Ivy/T10/20 campus. These arguments are so stupid....everyone worked with that dumb Ivy grad...

look, I get it...we always make fun of our kid when he does something stupid...'Ivy grad' and joke about it with him.

But that misses the fact that there are so many schools in this county, many of them with crazy smart kids, though apparently not your brother.

I would pick a top 25% grad of a state flagship over a generic ivy grad any day of the week. (And that is backed up by my experience in professional school admissions.)

This is a topsy-turian environment right now and higher education is getting smacked around.. I think privates might be in a better position to weather the funding cuts for research and able to still offer opportunities that will just not be available at the diminished funding available for public education.

But that doesn't mean that the ivy kids are not coddled, per the thread topic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish my kid was coddled more, not really, but that is so false. There may be some plush privates that do that but it’s not the Ivies. Most get humbled real quick and the expectations are very high. There is no hand holding.

I believe what they mean by coddled is the Ivies do not provide the full gamut of a real word education. For instance, you don’t have to be proactive to get your classes. If you’re struggling, they practically give your own personal tutor. You don’t get that in publics, at least not to that extent. You have to be responsible and get your classes early or they’ll run out of seats. If you’re struggling, they do have resources to help you but you have to seek out. And when you do, you might have to wait a couple hours for your turn (this is most common in lower division introductory courses. Upper division is much more intimate). So public school education is more relatable to the real world. No one’s gonna give you a job out there, you have to seek it out. If you’re struggling at your job, you’re pretty much on your own to figure it out. An IT person once said he could always tell what school someone went to. He said the private school people would call me to fix stuff that only took a reboot.

+1 I grew up in a lower income, immigrant home, and went to big no name state u. I had to be scrappy. My kids have grown up in an UMC home with public schools that try to coddle them more. They need more hand holding. That's not to say that I want my kids to grow up like I did because it was tough and stressful, and not fun. But, at the least, it made me scrappy. I was also a latchkey kid.

But, I have told my kids what the PP wrote above -- the world is not going to coddle you. Your manager is not going to coddle you. You have to figure things out on your own, and advocate for yourself. You will probably have to do the grunt, low level not fun work when you first start working.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is at a HYPSM and working their butt off. No coddling there. Demanding academics!

These kids need to be allowed to compete. I went to Berkeley. I still remember the incredulous stare of my Stanford friends when they saw my work load. They were appalled that the average grades on most tests were 34-40 percent, which curved to a B.

I remember when my friend at Stanford was allowed to withdraw from a class a week before finals. They were getting a bad grade, and Stanford let them retake the class 3x before they could pass with a B. In my big no name state u, you would have to take that bad grade. They would never let you withdraw a week before finals.

To be fair, the Ivy student is paying a much higher tuition than you at your no-name state U. So, don’t you agree the Ivy student is entitled to the higher grade?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is at a HYPSM and working their butt off. No coddling there. Demanding academics!

These kids need to be allowed to compete. I went to Berkeley. I still remember the incredulous stare of my Stanford friends when they saw my work load. They were appalled that the average grades on most tests were 34-40 percent, which curved to a B.

I remember when my friend at Stanford was allowed to withdraw from a class a week before finals. They were getting a bad grade, and Stanford let them retake the class 3x before they could pass with a B. In my big no name state u, you would have to take that bad grade. They would never let you withdraw a week before finals.

To be fair, the Ivy student is paying a much higher tuition than you at your no-name state U. So, don’t you agree the Ivy student is entitled to the higher grade?

bolded, right there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is disputing that there are super bright people at ivies, it’s more the idea that the dimwits there (and there are definitely plenty of dimwits there) are more capable than the top students at lot lots of other (less rich, less privileged) schools.

There are a much, much greater number of dimwits at non-Ivies...and more as you keep going down the rankings.

My brother was a complete idiot and on a full ride at an ~330 ranked university....between the 4 roommates they didn't have a 4.0 first quarter...didn't even pick their books up (that were paid for).

The liklihood of finding a dimwit is much greater not on an Ivy/T10/20 campus. These arguments are so stupid....everyone worked with that dumb Ivy grad...

look, I get it...we always make fun of our kid when he does something stupid...'Ivy grad' and joke about it with him.

But that misses the fact that there are so many schools in this county, many of them with crazy smart kids, though apparently not your brother.

I would pick a top 25% grad of a state flagship over a generic ivy grad any day of the week. (And that is backed up by my experience in professional school admissions.)

This is a topsy-turian environment right now and higher education is getting smacked around.. I think privates might be in a better position to weather the funding cuts for research and able to still offer opportunities that will just not be available at the diminished funding available for public education.

But that doesn't mean that the ivy kids are not coddled, per the thread topic.

If I coddled you mean the school has some money to replace Federal research funding being blown up then I guess. No one is going to be doing the research for them. The expectation is that the student commit to the research project and complete the research project. There isn't any hand holding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is disputing that there are super bright people at ivies, it’s more the idea that the dimwits there (and there are definitely plenty of dimwits there) are more capable than the top students at lot lots of other (less rich, less privileged) schools.

There are a much, much greater number of dimwits at non-Ivies...and more as you keep going down the rankings.

My brother was a complete idiot and on a full ride at an ~330 ranked university....between the 4 roommates they didn't have a 4.0 first quarter...didn't even pick their books up (that were paid for).

The liklihood of finding a dimwit is much greater not on an Ivy/T10/20 campus. These arguments are so stupid....everyone worked with that dumb Ivy grad...

look, I get it...we always make fun of our kid when he does something stupid...'Ivy grad' and joke about it with him.

But that misses the fact that there are so many schools in this county, many of them with crazy smart kids, though apparently not your brother.

I would pick a top 25% grad of a state flagship over a generic ivy grad any day of the week. (And that is backed up by my experience in professional school admissions.)

This is a topsy-turian environment right now and higher education is getting smacked around.. I think privates might be in a better position to weather the funding cuts for research and able to still offer opportunities that will just not be available at the diminished funding available for public education.

But that doesn't mean that the ivy kids are not coddled, per the thread topic.

This tells me without a shadow of doubt that you did not attend nor have a child that does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to East Flyover State U and ended up in a top professional school with lots of ivy grads. They were okay-everyone in the class was pretty smart but they were not smarter than the non ivy students at all. They were more coddled (and much richer) on average but there were of course exceptions.

I’ve had the same experience.

Sour grapes

I do think people who didn’t go, or get into, ivies are a bit sour, but not in the way that you think. I think people are sour because, especially if they graduated from a top five or ten public, they feel like they were better trained but society still sees them as a notch below Ivy League grads who benefit from societal presuppositions about Ivy schools. And, as Forbes point out, employers are starting to catch on to that. The problem with private schools is that they rely too much on donors. As such, they can’t totally go too hard on their students. Public schools will flunk you, and that builds character and puts a little chip on students’ shoulders. Privates are afraid to flunk their students.

Omg. NOT. They expel, suspend and flunk them all of the time if they are up to snuff. Where do you people come up with your theories?

Ted Turner billionaire founder of CNN and TBS was asked to leave Brown during his senior year. Apparently Turner, who was studying economics was suspended twice. One of those times was for getting caught with a girl in his room.

Robert Smigel of SNL originally went to Cornell for Dentistry but knew he never really wanted to be a Dentist. He said in one interview that he failed so badly at pre-Dentistry classes that his parents felt sorry for him and let him transfer to NYU to study communications.

Brown situation - that's not related to academics.
Cornell situation - the student transferred on their own accord. He failed so badly but Cornell would probably have allowed him to retake the class over and over. Publics don't do that. That bad grade just goes on your transcript.

I know more than one current student at each of the top2 publics in virginia and they are allowed to withdraw well past the deadline in the semester if the professor submits a note of support. Mental duress is enough to get the ok. The W goes on the transcript, just as it does for the late W allowed at ivies. There is a huge mental health crisis among young adults: I agree with the policies and think all schools should allow it.