ADHD Clusters in a classroom

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a disaster. My kid's 504 plan stipulates that he'll get preferential seating next to high-achieving kids. Seating him next to other ADHD kids would be a nightmare.

Wait, what??? Come back to that accommodation: preferential seating next to high achieving kids.

I do not believe this. How could you enforce this without revealing protected information about another student? Let’s say you go to the school to say the 504 is not being followed because your little Pierpont has been seated next to Larlo who you think is not very bright. Are you expecting the school to prove that Larlo really is high achieving to defend themselves against your accusation of not following the 504???

Preferential seating near the teacher is an accommodation. But preferential seating near a particular student? Yeah, no.

Well, this really is not enforceable. It’s a 504 for one, which have been abused so much (case in point) that they’re functionally useless. But also, there is no legal standing for ANOTHER student to be the source of the accommodation to support a student. None. As a teacher, I would not absolutely have pushed back on this in the team meeting. As it is, I doubt many of the teachers are actually following it as it’s not ethical.

How are 504s being abused? People are faking it?

Yes: people are faking it.

Up to 40% of university students self-report as having a “disability” to the university office of disabilities (the ADA requires universities to track). This 40% is calculated AFTER discounting international students, since international student in the USA claim disabilities near zero percent of the time.

40% disabled American university students overwhelmingly indicates cheating of the system on a massive scale.

Have you looked at the list of ADA disabilities lately? I wouldn’t be surprised if 40% of the people in the world have at least one of those items.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a disaster. My kid's 504 plan stipulates that he'll get preferential seating next to high-achieving kids. Seating him next to other ADHD kids would be a nightmare.

Wait, what??? Come back to that accommodation: preferential seating next to high achieving kids.

I do not believe this. How could you enforce this without revealing protected information about another student? Let’s say you go to the school to say the 504 is not being followed because your little Pierpont has been seated next to Larlo who you think is not very bright. Are you expecting the school to prove that Larlo really is high achieving to defend themselves against your accusation of not following the 504???

Preferential seating near the teacher is an accommodation. But preferential seating near a particular student? Yeah, no.

Well, this really is not enforceable. It’s a 504 for one, which have been abused so much (case in point) that they’re functionally useless. But also, there is no legal standing for ANOTHER student to be the source of the accommodation to support a student. None. As a teacher, I would not absolutely have pushed back on this in the team meeting. As it is, I doubt many of the teachers are actually following it as it’s not ethical.

How are 504s being abused? People are faking it?

Yes: people are faking it.

Up to 40% of university students self-report as having a “disability” to the university office of disabilities (the ADA requires universities to track). This 40% is calculated AFTER discounting international students, since international student in the USA claim disabilities near zero percent of the time.

40% disabled American university students overwhelmingly indicates cheating of the system on a massive scale.

Have you looked at the list of ADA disabilities lately? I wouldn’t be surprised if 40% of the people in the world have at least one of those items.

That’s why IEPs are more robust and harder to get. One can have ADHD or anxiety or even autism and not have an IEP because in order to qualify for an IEP under IDEA, it has to be measurably documented that the condition is a disability because it *causes* negative academic impact and without support, the child cannot access the curriculum due to the effects of the disability. If you have anxiety but you self support and manage and have no negative academic impact, your anxiety is NOT a disability under the law and you’re not entitled to an IEP. Therefore, some parents choose the 504 route instead which has far less stringent requirements (because it is not a legal document backed by federal legislation in the same sense as an IEP is) and then try to just game it to function as strictly or even more strictly than an actual IEP.

A lot of people have a variety of conditions or disorders- not all of those arise to the level of a disability, so it isn’t automatic that everyone with adhd for instance gets an IEP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:504 accommodations are pretty basic. What accommodations are you referring to?

HS teacher. Here is a smattering of accommodations from this year:

1.5x on all assessments (I’m not exaggerating when I say 20% of my entire rosters have this)
Preferential seating near point of instruction (I have one period were 12 kids have this. There are not 12 seats front and center)
No penalty for late work, up to 1 month late
Teacher will contact parent when any assignment is not turned in
Student will be provided with answer keys to all classwork to check their work before submitting assignments
Student can take all assessments in an empty classroom nearby (too anxious to test around other people)
Student may have access to their phone during tests to listen to music
Teacher will review student answers on an assessment and return it to them to finish any that are still left blank or incomplete
Teacher will verify that student has recorded homework assignment in a physical planner and will notify parents daily of the assignment (whyyyyy??? Isn’t that why I spend time putting things in schoology?)
Student will have access to mentor at any point in the day when feeling anxious (not sure how this is realistic since mentor teaches classes)

I teach mostly freshmen, so the middle school is sending tons of stuff in 504s that we weed through and try to make more reasonable. Once it’s in the document though, parents largely refuse to remove it.

When I started, 504s were things like “access to food and drink” for a diabetic kid or “unlimited bathroom passes” for crohns or “change in clinic for PE” for the child with an eating disorder who didn’t want to see other bodies or “leave class 2 minutes early” for the kid with mobility challenges who didn’t need to fight crowded hallways. Easy things to set procedures for at the beginning of the year, but no extra work for me.

Now? I spend 30 minutes every day on 504 accommodations. Any assessment day means I give up my lunch and after school time for kids to finish. Every class period is multiple parent emails updating them on missed work (which they could see in sis) or upcoming assignments (visible in schoology). I have to prepare answer keys to everything ahead of time instead of just posting my smart board files after class like I used to. It’s a lot, and it’s all outside my school day.

I don’t begrudge families for trying to help their child be successful, but oftentimes it is putting all the onus for responsibility onto me instead of their child.) I worry where these kids will be after graduating. No one is going to tell mom that kid’s shift at work moved or that the paper in English 101 is due. Going from “teacher and parent manage everything” to “student is independent” isn’t a magic shift, it needs to gradually be learned.

I'm a former teacher. Because you do all of this I guarantee you get more kids put into your classes who need accomodations. I did my best to accommodate but I would not be able to facilitate all of that on my own. You should have a special ed coteacher or send them to a resource room for the testing extended time.

I’m the quoted PP. What is a resource room? We don’t have one of those. Schedules are computerized, it’s just luck of the draw—my colleagues all have similar chaos on their rosters. SPED coteachers are for team taught classes with IEPs, not 504s.

It’s legitimately insane how commonplace these accommodations are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What a disaster. My kid's 504 plan stipulates that he'll get preferential seating next to high-achieving kids. Seating him next to other ADHD kids would be a nightmare.

Wait, what??? Come back to that accommodation: preferential seating next to high achieving kids.

I do not believe this. How could you enforce this without revealing protected information about another student? Let’s say you go to the school to say the 504 is not being followed because your little Pierpont has been seated next to Larlo who you think is not very bright. Are you expecting the school to prove that Larlo really is high achieving to defend themselves against your accusation of not following the 504???

Preferential seating near the teacher is an accommodation. But preferential seating near a particular student? Yeah, no.

Well, this really is not enforceable. It’s a 504 for one, which have been abused so much (case in point) that they’re functionally useless. But also, there is no legal standing for ANOTHER student to be the source of the accommodation to support a student. None. As a teacher, I would not absolutely have pushed back on this in the team meeting. As it is, I doubt many of the teachers are actually following it as it’s not ethical.

How are 504s being abused? People are faking it?

Yes: people are faking it.

Up to 40% of university students self-report as having a “disability” to the university office of disabilities (the ADA requires universities to track). This 40% is calculated AFTER discounting international students, since international student in the USA claim disabilities near zero percent of the time.

40% disabled American university students overwhelmingly indicates cheating of the system on a massive scale.

Have you looked at the list of ADA disabilities lately? I wouldn’t be surprised if 40% of the people in the world have at least one of those items.

That’s why IEPs are more robust and harder to get. One can have ADHD or anxiety or even autism and not have an IEP because in order to qualify for an IEP under IDEA, it has to be measurably documented that the condition is a disability because it *causes* negative academic impact and without support, the child cannot access the curriculum due to the effects of the disability. If you have anxiety but you self support and manage and have no negative academic impact, your anxiety is NOT a disability under the law and you’re not entitled to an IEP. Therefore, some parents choose the 504 route instead which has far less stringent requirements (because it is not a legal document backed by federal legislation in the same sense as an IEP is) and then try to just game it to function as strictly or even more strictly than an actual IEP.

A lot of people have a variety of conditions or disorders- not all of those arise to the level of a disability, so it isn’t automatic that everyone with adhd for instance gets an IEP.

Just to add on, academic impact is not about a disability inhibiting a student from fulfilling their potential but only that the child can participate at the appropriate grade level. A bright kid with LDs/ADHD/Autism/Anxiety could be capable of being a straight A student completing advanced work with some supports but will only get an IEP if they are not at grade level. If that bright kid is getting a C then they are deemed to be at grade level and do not require assistance and will not receive an IEP.

If a child has an IEP then there are some serious deficits/gaps in their education that need to be addressed. Many kids have 504s with accommodations but those are not legally enforceable.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately the SpEd teams are not great at resolving gaps at all. It seems like parents need to supplement like crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:504 accommodations are pretty basic. What accommodations are you referring to?

HS teacher. Here is a smattering of accommodations from this year:

1.5x on all assessments (I’m not exaggerating when I say 20% of my entire rosters have this)
Preferential seating near point of instruction (I have one period were 12 kids have this. There are not 12 seats front and center)
No penalty for late work, up to 1 month late
Teacher will contact parent when any assignment is not turned in
Student will be provided with answer keys to all classwork to check their work before submitting assignments
Student can take all assessments in an empty classroom nearby (too anxious to test around other people)
Student may have access to their phone during tests to listen to music
Teacher will review student answers on an assessment and return it to them to finish any that are still left blank or incomplete
Teacher will verify that student has recorded homework assignment in a physical planner and will notify parents daily of the assignment (whyyyyy??? Isn’t that why I spend time putting things in schoology?)
Student will have access to mentor at any point in the day when feeling anxious (not sure how this is realistic since mentor teaches classes)

I teach mostly freshmen, so the middle school is sending tons of stuff in 504s that we weed through and try to make more reasonable. Once it’s in the document though, parents largely refuse to remove it.

When I started, 504s were things like “access to food and drink” for a diabetic kid or “unlimited bathroom passes” for crohns or “change in clinic for PE” for the child with an eating disorder who didn’t want to see other bodies or “leave class 2 minutes early” for the kid with mobility challenges who didn’t need to fight crowded hallways. Easy things to set procedures for at the beginning of the year, but no extra work for me.

Now? I spend 30 minutes every day on 504 accommodations. Any assessment day means I give up my lunch and after school time for kids to finish. Every class period is multiple parent emails updating them on missed work (which they could see in sis) or upcoming assignments (visible in schoology). I have to prepare answer keys to everything ahead of time instead of just posting my smart board files after class like I used to. It’s a lot, and it’s all outside my school day.

I don’t begrudge families for trying to help their child be successful, but oftentimes it is putting all the onus for responsibility onto me instead of their child.) I worry where these kids will be after graduating. No one is going to tell mom that kid’s shift at work moved or that the paper in English 101 is due. Going from “teacher and parent manage everything” to “student is independent” isn’t a magic shift, it needs to gradually be learned.

I'm a former teacher. Because you do all of this I guarantee you get more kids put into your classes who need accomodations. I did my best to accommodate but I would not be able to facilitate all of that on my own. You should have a special ed coteacher or send them to a resource room for the testing extended time.

What is a resource room? I've worked in five schools in the past 25 years. I've never heard of a resource room.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the SpEd teams are not great at resolving gaps at all. It seems like parents need to supplement like crazy.

Does the student not have something to do with it? Do parents of kids without IEPs not supplement from time to time?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the SpEd teams are not great at resolving gaps at all. It seems like parents need to supplement like crazy.

Does the student not have something to do with it? Do parents of kids without IEPs not supplement from time to time?

This is a mixed bag. I have experienced it all- some families are SO involved and work very hard with their children on any social or academic deficits because they understand this is for life and they and their child will have to live with this disability well beyond k-12. I have also worked with families who basically view the IEP and as a free card to pass all classes and evade discipline for any and everything. There is a huge difference between looking at data and seeing that the accommodations and supports are not helping the child achieve the goals (which means either the goals need to change or the supports do) and looking at the data and seeing the child is always absent, or never submits any work at all, and the parent thinks “well they have an IEP so they have to pass.”

An IEP is only as good as the team who makes it and the team who uses it. As a rule, if your kid needs supports at school, they likely need them at home too. Different supports perhaps, but supports nonetheless. Not all parents are equipped or willing to parent at that level. Some go above and beyond. You’ll see it all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They tend to group IEP/504 kids in one class so the special Ed teacher can stay in there most of the day. It sucks.

I hope someone discriminates against your kids, too.

Who is discriminating against whom in this situation, PP? The school discriminating against special education children? Me discriminating against them because I'm pissed that my child is suffering the consequences of their bad behavior? At least once a week, the entire classroom gets punished because clustered together, these boys play off each other and everything gets escalated. It's just a really horrible situation for all the other kids all because everything has to center around this one group of kids and they're not allowed to be punished because they have an IEP or 504.

The bolded is not true. Also, not all ADHD kids are hyperactive or disturbing to others. Again, you are stereotyping, and I hope your kid will experience the same.

What a terrible thing to say!

[Anonymous]

What is a special education resource room

https://www.thoughtco.com/special-education-resource-room-3110962


It is also possible to take an instructional specialist or assistant role and have a "testing center" in a school where students can be sent to do their extended time, makeups, whatever.

If every teacher in their building is scrambling to do everything themselves you can point the finger at administration and administrative bloat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately the SpEd teams are not great at resolving gaps at all. It seems like parents need to supplement like crazy.

Does the student not have something to do with it? Do parents of kids without IEPs not supplement from time to time?

This is a mixed bag. I have experienced it all- some families are SO involved and work very hard with their children on any social or academic deficits because they understand this is for life and they and their child will have to live with this disability well beyond k-12. I have also worked with families who basically view the IEP and as a free card to pass all classes and evade discipline for any and everything. There is a huge difference between looking at data and seeing that the accommodations and supports are not helping the child achieve the goals (which means either the goals need to change or the supports do) and looking at the data and seeing the child is always absent, or never submits any work at all, and the parent thinks “well they have an IEP so they have to pass.”

An IEP is only as good as the team who makes it and the team who uses it. As a rule, if your kid needs supports at school, they likely need them at home too. Different supports perhaps, but supports nonetheless. Not all parents are equipped or willing to parent at that level. Some go above and beyond. You’ll see it all.

+1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What is a special education resource room

https://www.thoughtco.com/special-education-resource-room-3110962


It is also possible to take an instructional specialist or assistant role and have a "testing center" in a school where students can be sent to do their extended time, makeups, whatever.

If every teacher in their building is scrambling to do everything themselves you can point the finger at administration and administrative bloat.

This sounds very elementary. How does it work in a secondary school? I teach math and give a test. I have 10 kids who need extended time to finish it. Right now they come during lunch or after school to my room. This article seems to suggest they’d be pulled from another class to finish math? That’s not going to go well…

The reality is ive shrunk my tests to be so short the top kids finish them in 15 minutes, the average kids 30, the slower kids 60, and most of my extended time kids finish in the 90 minute block. Then instead of 25 DNF kids I only have 3-4 and can manage it as previously described.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is a special education resource room

https://www.thoughtco.com/special-education-resource-room-3110962


It is also possible to take an instructional specialist or assistant role and have a "testing center" in a school where students can be sent to do their extended time, makeups, whatever.

If every teacher in their building is scrambling to do everything themselves you can point the finger at administration and administrative bloat.

This sounds very elementary. How does it work in a secondary school? I teach math and give a test. I have 10 kids who need extended time to finish it. Right now they come during lunch or after school to my room. This article seems to suggest they’d be pulled from another class to finish math? That’s not going to go well…

The reality is ive shrunk my tests to be so short the top kids finish them in 15 minutes, the average kids 30, the slower kids 60, and most of my extended time kids finish in the 90 minute block. Then instead of 25 DNF kids I only have 3-4 and can manage it as previously described.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What is a special education resource room

https://www.thoughtco.com/special-education-resource-room-3110962


It is also possible to take an instructional specialist or assistant role and have a "testing center" in a school where students can be sent to do their extended time, makeups, whatever.

If every teacher in their building is scrambling to do everything themselves you can point the finger at administration and administrative bloat.

This doesn't sound like a feasible solution in secondary school, where special educators are specialists in a content area. Who is staffing these resource rooms? How can it be ensured that a content specialist who is also a licensed special educator is available?

Secondary school has three models for special education support: (1) monitor (no actual service hours, but the case manager monitors progress), (2) co-taught classes (with a general education teacher and a special education teacher full-time), and (3) self-contained (with a special education teacher full-time). A student might only be receiving services (co-taught or self-contained) for one or two classes, or they might have services for four or more classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is a special education resource room

https://www.thoughtco.com/special-education-resource-room-3110962


It is also possible to take an instructional specialist or assistant role and have a "testing center" in a school where students can be sent to do their extended time, makeups, whatever.

If every teacher in their building is scrambling to do everything themselves you can point the finger at administration and administrative bloat.

This sounds very elementary. How does it work in a secondary school? I teach math and give a test. I have 10 kids who need extended time to finish it. Right now they come during lunch or after school to my room. This article seems to suggest they’d be pulled from another class to finish math? That’s not going to go well…

The reality is ive shrunk my tests to be so short the top kids finish them in 15 minutes, the average kids 30, the slower kids 60, and most of my extended time kids finish in the 90 minute block. Then instead of 25 DNF kids I only have 3-4 and can manage it as previously described.

I had and IEP in the 1980's-90's and my ES, MS, and HS had a resource room. In ES I had pull outs where I went to the resource room and worked individually with a teacher or in a small group. In MS and HS I took my tests in the resource room. My teacher gave the test and instructions to the resource teacher, and they proctored the test. My schedule was set so that the classes that I tended to need the extra time for, math and science, where before or after lunch so I had time to take the complete test. I could eat lunch while taking my test in the resource room. I went to the resource room during study hall and would work on homework there, getting help from the teachers as needed. It was a quieter place to work, fewer distractions, and I had someone available to help me if I had questions. I was able to get more done and better understand the material.

It worked well for me, but I have moderate LDs and ADHD. I need some additional support and time but that was it. And yes, my parents paid for tutors and worked with me at home. They provided supplemental material for my genius older brothers. They understood that there was only so much that the public school system could do.